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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Kerygmania: Gadarene swine
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
This is undoubtedly an old chestnut, but I haven't seen the answer so please bear with me and if you can wrap it up quickly, please do.
Who would have been farming pigs in (presumably predominantly Jewish) C1 Palestine, and why? Was it some kind of Roman garrison farm, perhaps?
[ 31. January 2017, 21:40: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Masses of Gentiles in the area -- not only Romans but Greeks and so forth. You don't have to eat the pigs yourself, just sell them to the goys.
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Is that right? You wouldn't be defiled by raising them?
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
That story, and the parable of the Prodigal Son, suggests that for whatever reason pig farms must have been part of the landscape. But weren't there a lot of Gentiles living in the regions where the demoniac was healed?
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Books and things.
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
If this involved a Roman garrison farm, one would expect some sort of retaliation for the destruction of a substantial number of animals. Indeed, one would expect anger no matter who owned them.
By the way, does the law of Moses forbid wearing garments made from pig leather?
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Someone must know about how the Mosaic law works -- is it OK to raise non-kosher foods?
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Remember that this is happening in "Galilee of the Gentiles," as Isaiah described it, where there are sizable communities of non-Jews. And it's across the lake, too, which seems to be even more "Gentile" from what I can make out. This community may not have had all that many kosher-keeping Jews.
As for whether you can raise unclean animals, certainly you can--a donkey or camel is "unclean" for purposes of eating or sacrifice, but you could still own and care for one. The whole "cooties" idea about unclean animals seems to come into effect mainly when they die, e.g. if a mouse dies in your cooking pot, bye bye pot (unless it was metal, in which case you could scour it to death and keep it). Living unclean animals don't seem to be "touch me nots" in Mosaic law, though local custom might have made them so.
As for someone bringing charges for the death of the pigs--well, I suppose they could try, but the magistrate would either throw them out as crazy people ("Did he touch your pigs? No? He was just standing 100 yards away? Well, then.") or he might take the exorcism thing with great seriousness, in which case it makes good sense to avoid pissing off a man who shows such remarkable power. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) After all, you wouldn't want to end up Part 2 of Jesus' remarkable exhibition (pigs, wait for me!).
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
That's interesting and helps me understand it- thanks. I know really shamefully little about the historical and socio-economic context of the Gospels.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
You're welcome! Most of this I got by asking the very same questions long ago, I've always been one of those "But wh-y-y-y-yyyyyy?" annoying people.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
As for whether you can raise unclean animals, certainly you can--a donkey or camel is "unclean" for purposes of eating or sacrifice, but you could still own and care for one. The whole "cooties" idea about unclean animals seems to come into effect mainly when they die, e.g. if a mouse dies in your cooking pot, bye bye pot (unless it was metal, in which case you could scour it to death and keep it). Living unclean animals don't seem to be "touch me nots" in Mosaic law, though local custom might have made them so.
Here's a thought -- since Jews can touch, ride, etc. "unclean" animals, could a first century Palestinian Jew in good conscience raise pigs to sell to the goyim, if he didn't eat them himself?
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
There used to be a good Jewish deli in Streatham Hill about 25 years ago which cheerfully advertised, among the flyers for events at the (admittedly Liberal) Synagogue, 'Try our bacon sandwich'. Lot of policemen, few of them I imagine Jewish, used to eat there.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
God, how I miss pastrami on rye. Apropos of nothing.
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
At the point in time when my son thought he was going to Iraq (he didn't) I took him to New York City and we ate pastrami on rye at Katz's deli, arguably the best in the world. I wanted him to know what he was fighting for.
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Gill H
Shipmate
# 68
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
At the point in time when my son thought he was going to Iraq (he didn't) I took him to New York City and we ate pastrami on rye at Katz's deli, arguably the best in the world. I wanted him to know what he was fighting for.
Do they still have the slogan 'Send a salami to your boy in the army'?
Happy memories of a Shipmeet there in 2005!
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Call me naive or ignorant or whatever. My take is the maniacal shouting of the maniac put the fear of God into the pigs who rushed headlong over the cliff. Jesus took the opportunity to say " there go your demons". And since the only way demons could finally be destroyed was by drowning ( see the other incident where exorcised demons "wandered in waterless places" and returned with 7 fold intensity) this was sufficient proof to the possessed man.
Why do we always have to look for miraculous interventions when a perfectly good explanation is at hand?
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Yes, they still do. If he had gone to Iraq I might have had them send one to my son.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Why do we always have to look for miraculous interventions when a perfectly good explanation is at hand?
Because the gospel writers are not trying to give a literal videotape of the life of Christ.
Much of the supernatural stuff in the gospels are making a point about the nature of God and Jesus, generally through symbolic and imaginative language.
In this case, I find the story very moving as an account of someone regarding themselves as outcast from the community, giving themselves over to self hatred and self harming.
By accepting them, Jesus heals and reconciles them. The flight of the herd of swine symbolises brilliantly the expulsion of the self destructive tendencies.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I've never heard that demons could only be destroyed by water. Where'd you get that?
The wandering-in-the-waterless-places thingy I take to mean that they went to the wilderness, which is more or less desert in that part of the world. But the point is that they banished, exiled, unhoused and away from human contact, not so much that they are like the wicked witch of the West and will melt on contact with H2O.
As for the guy shouting spooking all the pigs--it was a pretty big herd, and he'd been living near it for a long time. Surely they'd be used to it by then? The swineherds didn't put their loss down to the shouting, and they must have known their pigs' behavior pretty well. Plus I don't get the impression Jesus and the man were standing all that close to the pigs at the time. Within eyeshot, yes, but right next to the herd would be an unusual place for a band of Jews to pick (and Jesus and the apostles were Jews), not to mention a dangerous spot, particularly with such a large herd.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
And smelly. You do not want to stand right next to a big herd of pigs, particularly if you are wearing sandals.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I've never heard that demons could only be destroyed by water. Where'd you get that?
It is a powerful symbol of a psychological deliverance.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It may function that way for you personally, but is there anyone out there who also shares that belief? I mean, the church fathers, early Jewish sources, some reference in Scripture... Just saying "it works for me" is a bit thin when we're studying a text.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Just saying "it works for me" is a bit thin when we're studying a text.
Any interesting post here will be an expression of a personal response to the text of scripture. Why should my response be discounted just because it is mine?
The demons ask to have a different “host” from the man and are sent into the pigs. If they could exist independently of a “host” they wouldn’t need to.
Unfortunately for them, the pigs react badly to possession and act like lemmings. (The demons have already produced self hatred and self harm with their human victim. Animal hosts have a more violent reaction.)
As a result the demons have no hosts and are destroyed.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
My question was specifically about the water/destruction link. Your post appeared to be made in answer to my question, in which case it was less than substantial. If I was wrong, and your post had nothing to do with my question, then naturally there is no problem with it.
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Some say that pigs in ancient Israel were part of the sanitation system as they ate shit.
Anyway, if the story is supposed to be read as a Roman pig farm, then presumably the reader is supposed to infer some things about Jesus and his power over the Roman occupiers as much as over demons and unclean animals.
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arse
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
My question was specifically about the water/destruction link. Your post appeared to be made in answer to my question, in which case it was less than substantial. If I was wrong, and your post had nothing to do with my question, then naturally there is no problem with it.
Whilst I can't think of an example of anyone doing it, if the Church Fathers were going to go down that route in commenting on this story, I suspect the tie would be drawn to baptism, setting this up as a type of baptism - where baptism is an entering into water to defeat the demons within oneself.
But all speculative really...
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Anyway, if the story is supposed to be read as a Roman pig farm, then presumably the reader is supposed to infer some things about Jesus and his power over the Roman occupiers as much as over demons and unclean animals.
Surely that's also present in the story with the demons being named "Legion," isn't it?
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Anyway, if the story is supposed to be read as a Roman pig farm, then presumably the reader is supposed to infer some things about Jesus and his power over the Roman occupiers as much as over demons and unclean animals.
Surely that's also present in the story with the demons being named "Legion," isn't it?
I doubt that Legion as a name is linked with the military unit, if that's your meaning. Rather, I'd take it to the large number of demons, a number beyond counting.
Upthread somewhere, there was a question about swine and camels being unclean. AIUI, their being unclean is a reference to eating them. Certainly, there was nothing unclean in having numerous camels to use as beasts of burden and a means of transport. Pigs were prohibited food, but perhaps they could have been kept to consume garbage - their willingness to eat waste being why they were unclean.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Anyway, if the story is supposed to be read as a Roman pig farm, then presumably the reader is supposed to infer some things about Jesus and his power over the Roman occupiers as much as over demons and unclean animals.
Surely that's also present in the story with the demons being named "Legion," isn't it?
Dang it, I never noticed either of these things. Fwoar.
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
Whilst I can't think of an example of anyone doing it, if the Church Fathers were going to go down that route in commenting on this story, I suspect the tie would be drawn to baptism, setting this up as a type of baptism - where baptism is an entering into water to defeat the demons within oneself.
But all speculative really...
There is nothing like that in the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture for this passage. They focus on the demons as being the enemies of humankind, and how we allow them to enter into us metaphorically through sin. There is a lot about Jew (the Church) and Gentile (non-Christians). But nothing about baptism.
Ditto Chrysostom, who in his 28th (or XXVIIIth) sermon takes great pains to point out that the demons would have treated the demoniacs even worse, like they treated the swine, had not God been protecting them (i.e. the demoniacs). An interesting (and not altogether convincing) observation. He then launches into a warning about being the sort of sinful person who by his sins allows the demons to enter himself, which goes on for two pages. The penultimate paragraph being:
Consider then all these things (for the words concerning hell and the kingdom ye are not yet able to hear), and bearing in mind the losses which ye have often undergone from your love of money, in loans, and in purchases, and in marriages, and in offices of power, and in all the rest; withdraw yourselves from doating [sic] on money.
Apparently the story of the demoniacs was a huge warning against filthy lucre.
Anyway not to say that your theory is wrong; only that I couldn't locate it in what little of the fathers I have access to.
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by TomM:
Whilst I can't think of an example of anyone doing it, if the Church Fathers were going to go down that route in commenting on this story, I suspect the tie would be drawn to baptism, setting this up as a type of baptism - where baptism is an entering into water to defeat the demons within oneself.
But all speculative really...
There is nothing like that in the Ancient Christian Commentary on Scripture for this passage. They focus on the demons as being the enemies of humankind, and how we allow them to enter into us metaphorically through sin. There is a lot about Jew (the Church) and Gentile (non-Christians). But nothing about baptism.
Ditto Chrysostom, who in his 28th (or XXVIIIth) sermon takes great pains to point out that the demons would have treated the demoniacs even worse, like they treated the swine, had not God been protecting them (i.e. the demoniacs). An interesting (and not altogether convincing) observation. He then launches into a warning about being the sort of sinful person who by his sins allows the demons to enter himself, which goes on for two pages. The penultimate paragraph being:
Consider then all these things (for the words concerning hell and the kingdom ye are not yet able to hear), and bearing in mind the losses which ye have often undergone from your love of money, in loans, and in purchases, and in marriages, and in offices of power, and in all the rest; withdraw yourselves from doating [sic] on money.
Apparently the story of the demoniacs was a huge warning against filthy lucre.
Anyway not to say that your theory is wrong; only that I couldn't locate it in what little of the fathers I have access to.
I don't believe my theory exists anywhere in the Fathers either. I'm merely attempting to link destroying demons and water - as was being suggested upthread - using similar exegetical approaches to what they use elsewhere - with their constant eye on the life of the Church in interpreting all of Scripture.
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Some commentators I've read do think that the demons being named Legion is an intentional reference to the Roman legions, but I'll have to find some references to back that up when I'm at my computer (on my tablet now typing one-fingered). I was under the impression it was a pretty common reading but maybe not.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I doubt that Legion as a name is linked with the military unit, if that's your meaning. Rather, I'd take it to the large number of demons, a number beyond counting.
Hard to see why the word used would be one associated with the Romans. Surely there was a word in contemporary languages for a multitude.
quote:
Upthread somewhere, there was a question about swine and camels being unclean. AIUI, their being unclean is a reference to eating them. Certainly, there was nothing unclean in having numerous camels to use as beasts of burden and a means of transport. Pigs were prohibited food, but perhaps they could have been kept to consume garbage - their willingness to eat waste being why they were unclean.
I don't know the details about Jewish animal prohibitions. However I'd imagine there is a difference between animals like camels and horses - which were acceptable to use as pack animals - and animals like pigs, which were not good for eating, not good for pulling things, not good for clothing.. and maybe only good for eating shit and/or selling to crazy dirty heathen occupiers.
In many different societies those who kept pigs were very low in station. It is hard to imagine this would not be the case with Jews, particularly with the religious prohibitions.
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arse
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
In many different societies those who kept pigs were very low in station. It is hard to imagine this would not be the case with Jews, particularly with the religious prohibitions.
This is also true of those who keep sheep and goats.
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Where did this stuff about pigs eating shit come from?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Where did this stuff about pigs eating shit come from?
Not sure what you mean - pig coprophagia is well known, see for example this sciencey news article, but I can also show you academic papers discussing the phenomena if you are interested.
[ 13. February 2016, 14:47: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
Ta Mr. C, but I was more concerned to set the reputation of pigs in context, given the subject matter. So far as I am aware, they only do so in restricted circumstances (herbivore faeces containing undigested nutrients) - as of course do other animals (e.g. rabbits for refection).
Likewise, the dreadful smell point raised above also needs to be set in context - left to themselves, pigs are hygienic animals with a built-in tendency not to foul their resting quarters. Their tendency to cover themselves in mud is primarily to keep cool and protect against sunburn. And in fact, pigs kept in the open air and given freedom to rootle about don't smell much at all, and are more reliably amiable creatures.
A lot of the bad impressions that people have about pigs arise more from the way we tend to treat them.
But as I say, its more a context point.
[ 13. February 2016, 16:44: Message edited by: Honest Ron Bacardi ]
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Many New Testament manuscripts refer to the "Country of the Gadarenes" or "Gerasenes" rather than the Gergesenes. Both Gerasa and Gadara were cities to the east of the Sea of Galilee. They were both Gentile cities filled with citizens who were culturally more Greek than Semitic; this would account for the pigs in the biblical account. Gerasa and Gadara are accounted for in historical accounts (by writers such as Pliny the Elder and Josephus) and by archaeological research. Today they are the modern towns of Jerash and Umm Qais.
Thus when the villagers demand that Jesus leave the region, it was for cause. He had just wiped out their livelihood and food source.
But what has always intrigued me with this story is who was the demonic? This is the one story in the Gospel of Mark that has a lot of detail in it. When the demonic is healed the villages find him fully clothed with Jesus. After the villages demand Jesus leave their area the (formally) demonic wants to go with Jesus. But Jesus tells him instead to stay and witness to what has happened to him--the one and only time in Mark where Jesus permits the witness of the healing.
Later we are told that when Jesus was arrested Mark tells of a young man who was wearing a linen garment was following Jesus, the arresting authorities seized the man by his garment and he ran away naked. (Note also, the detail of the arrest in Mark).
And in Mark's story of the resurrection we find that the women encounter a young man in a white garment at the tomb who tells them Jesus is not there.
Could all three men be the one and the same person, maybe even the writer of the Gospel we know as Mark? Or at least Mark's primary source?
This side of eternity we will never know.
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
As long as we're on a tangent, I'll add that The Gadarene Swine is the name of a Vegan restaurant in Los Angeles. (I wonder how many locals get the joke.) But back to the OP.
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
This is undoubtedly an old chestnut, but I haven't seen the answer so please bear with me and if you can wrap it up quickly, please do.
Who would have been farming pigs in (presumably predominantly Jewish) C1 Palestine, and why? Was it some kind of Roman garrison farm, perhaps?
The gospel writers set this story in different locations. In Mark and in Luke, it is set in the area of Gerasa, which was in central Transjordan, southeast of the Sea of Galilee. The footnotes in my copy of the Oxford Annotated Bible indicate that the population was largely non-Jewish. I don't know if that means Roman specifically, but perhaps we can conclude that Jewish law wouldn't have been a concern for the guy raising the pigs.
Matthew sets the story in Gadara, also in Transjordan but further north, one of the cities of the Decapolis. This being a largely Hellenized area, there's no reason to assume the pig farmer would have been Jewish. (The OAB notes that Gadara was the site of a famous healing sanctuary - which I'm going to assume was Hellenic - and that, combined with the whole swine business, would make the story hilarious to Matthew's Jewish audience.)
[ 13. February 2016, 18:23: Message edited by: Mamacita ]
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Mamacita, I'm a doofus, but would you spell out the joke for me? I don't see the connection between dead pigs and veganism... ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
The owner is an officious little douche who thinks that name is high irony. Also, skip the strawberry salad. It's gross.
( Said owner recently got fed his ass on the Bravo show "Top Chef" this week, and he was shamelessly pimping his restaurant when he was supposed to be supporting his teammates in a simulated restaurant challenge. Diners must have heard the phrase "Gadarine Swine" a dozen times that night.)
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Just to say that Tom's idea about baptism strikes me as brilliant.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
Whenever I hear the title of this thread, I imagine a pig in a Burberry overcoat...
Taking of which, I'll get mine.
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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)
Posts: 1596 | Registered: Oct 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Just to say that Tom's idea about baptism strikes me as brilliant.
The problem with the analogy is that in baptism we enter into the water and the "old man" dies, and we rise again anew. Baptism is a symbol of death and resurrection.
The pigs don't rise again. They just die.
If anything it's a CONTRAST with baptism. Humans die and rise again. Demons just die.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mamacita
Lakefront liberal
# 3659
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Mamacita, I'm a doofus, but would you spell out the joke for me? I don't see the connection between dead pigs and veganism...
The vegan restaurant was just an aside. I've always thought that Matthew's audience would think it hilarious that Jesus got rid of demons by sending them into unclean animals. Reading this morning that Gadera was the site of a pagan healing sanctuary just seemed to me to be a nice touch of irony. It's like Jesus was saying, You want healing? I'll show you healing!
Kelly, excellent story about the restaurant owner!
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Do not be daunted by the enormity of the world’s grief. Do justly, now. Love mercy, now. Walk humbly, now. You are not obligated to complete the work, but neither are you free to abandon it.
Posts: 20761 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I bet you're right. For some reason I can't help seeing the pigs thundering over a cliff, hanging there in thin air cartoon style for a long awful moment--and then PLOOSH!!! they drop into the sea like cannonballs.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I bet you're right. For some reason I can't help seeing the pigs thundering over a cliff, hanging there in thin air cartoon style for a long awful moment--and then PLOOSH!!! they drop into the sea like cannonballs.
Very Wile E. Coyote.
ETA: Or this could have happened.
[ 13. February 2016, 22:56: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
That would be if water really destroyed demons.
"Hey, kids! I feel so much more sane all of a sudden!"
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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TomM
Shipmate
# 4618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Just to say that Tom's idea about baptism strikes me as brilliant.
The problem with the analogy is that in baptism we enter into the water and the "old man" dies, and we rise again anew. Baptism is a symbol of death and resurrection.
The pigs don't rise again. They just die.
If anything it's a CONTRAST with baptism. Humans die and rise again. Demons just die.
Which is why I'm not at all convinced of the idea myself. It was a forced attempt at trying to connect water and the destruction of demons.
Posts: 405 | Registered: Jun 2003
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Well another Biblical association for water is the primal chaos of the opening of Genesis. The demons return to the primal chaos when they are expelled.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Call me naive or ignorant or whatever. My take is the maniacal shouting of the maniac put the fear of God into the pigs who rushed headlong over the cliff. Jesus took the opportunity to say " there go your demons". And since the only way demons could finally be destroyed was by drowning ( see the other incident where exorcised demons "wandered in waterless places" and returned with 7 fold intensity) this was sufficient proof to the possessed man.
Why do we always have to look for miraculous interventions when a perfectly good explanation is at hand?
I don't think this is a good explanation. I spent time growing up with my grandparents and other relatives who raised pigs in small towns and villages where the livestock wandered the streets and grazed freely. From what I saw I don't think a shouting man, even a maniac, would be enough to drive pigs straight into water. They'd run anywhere else they could. I think they'd even charge at a man before diving off a cliff. The witnesses of the incident and the readers of the story would've been familiar with the behavior of livestock and known how strange and unusual that incident was.
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“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"
Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008
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