|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Kerygmania: Gadarene swine
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
OK, but you'd agree that the abyss is a place for the demons to await punishment? No indication that some kind of mercy is on the table, right?
Fine. That doesn't invalidate the small mercy of letting them put it off as long as possible. The demons certainly didn't think so--they grabbed the chance with both hands and feet.
ETA: I think the confusion is that you think of mercy only in terms of a final sparing; I include anything that makes life more bearable along the way, such as a short reprieve from prison. The demons know that continuing to torment human beings freely is not an option. They're asking for an alternative to what they deserve--and Jesus gives it to them.
[ 22. June 2016, 15:53: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
No, expulsion from Heaven to the abyss, that is, absence from God's eternal life and love, is the punishment. There is nothing in that one way or the other about an ultimate act of mercy restoring them to that presence.
Would they perceive it as a mercy if they were restored to that presence?
Moo
Ha, good question. I have serious doubts about that. I expect there'd be major cries of "It burns! It burns!" and a dive for the shadows--of which there'd be none in God's presence.
--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
A good question indeed - but while I suspect that Lamb Chopped's reply is the one that Satan and his chief lieutenants would give, I am not so sure about those lower down. They might well be tired of being bossed around by those who caused their loss.
Can I briefly go back to Lamb Chopped's reply to my original post. I'm casting what I say bearing Milton's approach well to the front because my thought is that Milton's learning and understanding is very close to that of Jewish people in biblical times.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baker
Shipmate
# 18458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
That's interesting and helps me understand it- thanks. I know really shamefully little about the historical and socio-economic context of the Gospels.
A professor I once had pointed out how important it is to study, as you put it, the historical and socio-economic context when learning the Bible. He was a Hebrew and Greek language scholar and said it's not just about straight translation, it's about people's history, their feuds, and their games even, when it comes to understanding what a given text means.
During one class he asked us if anyone in the class spoke German. One guy did so the professor asked him how, in German, one would say "He's way out in left field" The student said something and then the prof asked "What does it mean?" and was told it means someone has strange ideas, or is a little crazy. He agrees and asks "What do you have to know to understand that?" I'm kinda proud I figured out what he wanted, which was "You have to know what baseball is"
The Biblical texts have a lot of figures of speech in them, and there never will be an end, I think, to learning about them, or to interpreting them.
--------------------
Ad astra per aspera
Posts: 108 | From: Tottering-on-the-Brink | Registered: Aug 2015
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
A good question indeed - but while I suspect that Lamb Chopped's reply is the one that Satan and his chief lieutenants would give, I am not so sure about those lower down. They might well be tired of being bossed around by those who caused their loss.
Can I briefly go back to Lamb Chopped's reply to my original post. I'm casting what I say bearing Milton's approach well to the front because my thought is that Milton's learning and understanding is very close to that of Jewish people in biblical times.
This has sent me off on another interesting tangent - a long time ago I read a footnote to a translation of the Old English 'Genesis B' poem suggesting that Milton had access to this as a source. I'd noticed the similarity in the way that Satan and his cohorts are represented myself. I hadn't been able to track this down - it isn't in my copy of the OE poem, but a little searching has led me to an essay on the subject. It looks as though, even if Milton did not know the 'Genesis', he and the older poet had access to the same sources, such as the 'Book of Enoch' and others since that was written, which would suggest reasons for his thinking reflecting Jewish thought.
(But if he did not know the older poem, it is very odd that the two poets use just the same sources in just the same way.)
[ 07. August 2016, 13:52: Message edited by: Penny S ]
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
I can't answer your question directly, but Milton was a poet of great learning across a range of traditions - Greek, Roman and Jewish in particular. So were the text available in the England of the early seventeenth century, it would be a surprise if Milton had not read it.
[ 08. August 2016, 07:16: Message edited by: Gee D ]
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
That is basically the argument for him having known it, bolstered by his being a friend of the man who owned it and having visited him.
A slight problem is that it was published a couple of years after he became blind, but someone could have read it to him.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
As all sorts of other books and papers were read to him. He also had a prolific and powerful memory which helped him enormously in his years lacking sight.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
|
Posted
Host hat on
This discussion of Milton is interesting, but it really doesn't belong in Keryg.
Host hat off
Moo
--------------------
Kerygmania host
---------------------
See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
Apologies Moo.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
It would make life SO much easier if there weren't 25 accounts in the non-Johannine gospel (0 in John, that's ZERO, no temptation in the desert) of at least 8 events where Jesus interacts with demons.
Luke doesn't count because he wasn't an eye witness and ... we don't know who ANY of the authors actually were. I don't know if ANY of the Matthian & Lucan accounts are distinct from the original Marcan. I suspect not.
BUT, even if there is only one source, these are integral to the story of Jesus. As are the good guy angelic accounts in Matthew and Luke. And the legendary one in John, annually at the Pool of Siloam.
And by the way Gramps49, Matthew says Mark's young man at the tomb was an angel. Trying to make him and the guy who ran away naked from Gethsemane (probably the author, it's such a sharp thing, possibly John-Mark) the same guy as the Gadarene demoniac is a third order, one in a thousand at best, speculation.
One can easily rationalize Jesus' temptation as projection. But one can't rationalize away His and the disciples' transitive exorcisms without getting ever closer to the bone of Adoptionism and worse.
Which validates the whole can of worms of a supernatural realm interacting with ours, not just a synergy of our brokenness. They appear very weak and horribly powerful. A mainly parallel world that barely touches on ours yet threatens it completely and acutely personally.
I'm intrigued that only in the epistles is our need for deliverance from Satan raised, I believe. It's all MOST confusing. And the author of confusion is ...
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
I have always liked the idea that the naked young man at Gethsemane was Mark himself. It is otherwise such a pointless little detail.
--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
|
Posted
What in the Biblical account makes you think the man involved was young?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by HCH:
What in the Biblical account makes you think the man involved was young?
Other than that he's identified as "young"? Mark 14: 51-52:
quote:
A certain young man was following him, wearing nothing but a linen cloth. They caught hold of him, but he left the linen cloth and ran off naked.
--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
Posts: 2833 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Wow, that's been there two thousand years eh?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
