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» Ship of Fools   » Ship's Locker   » Limbo   » Dead Horses: What 'listening process'? (Page 11)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: Dead Horses: What 'listening process'?
leo
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It's brilliant - though some of the responses show less than understanding.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Anyone else seen this? This woman speaks wisdom!
Dear Church of England: from a gay ordinand

Wow! (Her honesty and pain leave a large lump in my throat!) [Overused]

[ 09. December 2015, 15:39: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Pomona
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I know Rose personally - she is great. Definitely pretty conservative theologically (think Wycliffe/Ridley), and the CoE would be mad not to encourage talent like hers.

I know several evangelical, young, LGBT Anglicans whose loyalty to evangelicalism in the face of their awful treatment is frankly undeserved and makes me want to bang heads together. Evangelical Anglicans (and conservative evangelicals generally who are unfriendly to even celibate LGBT people holding leadership positions) do not realise the talent they are haemorrhaging due to their lack of understanding of the pain this causes. LGBT evangelicals love their churches, love the Bible, love evangelism - they don't want to have to abandon that to make their lives easier, yet they are being forced out.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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L'organist
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Well: I went on the "facilitated conversation" thingy.

I thought at 60 I was too old to be shocked or surprised by anything, but the level of ignorance, bigotry and sheer unpleasantness I saw and heard there was on a level I'd never imagined.

There can be no "good" disagreement. The well-meaning liberal middle-of-the-road are misguided if they think that worrying about our fellow anglicans in Africa matters a damn to the bible-bashing bigot wing of the CofE. There is now only one course: either the CofE stops the nonsense and decides to enter the real world, or it allows itself to be blackmailed by a poisonous alliance of gay-haters and hand-wringers and loses any remaining respect it might have among the wider population.

My personal view, of course, but thats the way I see it.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Penny S
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From outside, there is an obvious solution. The CofE returns to the historical practices of the RCC and demands that all priests be celibate. That would solve it. Wouldn't it?

It was the evidence of venom about women that sent me away (with no call to anything, but just the sense that I did not want, unknowingly, to receive the Eucharist from the hands of someone who would recoil from receiving it from me, were I ordained) and the evidence of venom, about these other issues, continues.

[ 10. December 2015, 11:34: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Jemima the 9th
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Good work, L'Organist. You're a braver individual than I. And I agree with your analysis. What happens next with the whole listening process stuff?
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anne
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Well: I went on the "facilitated conversation" thingy.

I thought at 60 I was too old to be shocked or surprised by anything, but the level of ignorance, bigotry and sheer unpleasantness I saw and heard there was on a level I'd never imagined.

I have seen a range of responses now, from people who have been part of these conversations and they have clearly had very different experiences in different areas. I have been worried, though by how often people have reported shock, surprise, bigotry and unpleasantness of various kinds.

It occurs to me, that, whatever the overall outcomes for the Church, there may well be real, personal repercussions for those who have been good enough to give their time and energy to the process and have been met with bigotry and ignorance. Will our loving and caring Church have put support in place for those who have been exposed to such hatefulness on our behalf? This is not casual, passing in the street homophobia, which would be bad enough. This is planned and considered bigotry, directed towards people who have been invited to an allegedly safe and Christian conversation.

Thank you for your contribution to this important part of our Church's life, and I am so sorry that members of our Church behaved so badly.

Anne

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‘I would have given the Church my head, my hand, my heart. She would not have them. She did not know what to do with them. She told me to go back and do crochet' Florence Nightingale

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L'organist
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posted by Jemima the 9th
quote:
What happens next with the whole listening process stuff?
Well, that's part of the problem: although Pilling called for some sort of discussion (hence the "facilitated conversations") no mechanism for summarising, reporting back or anything like recommendations was put in place - and from the thing I was on I can tell you that it wouldn't be possible in all conscience to draw up a report or recommendation that would be agreed on by even two-thirds ofthe participants.

As for time-frame: Pilling envisaged his report being discussed and action decided upon within 2 years - that was in November 2013 - and yet the last of the conversations isn't scheduled to take place until next summer.

With regards to venom: I saw none exhibited towards women on a general level, but I did see (and hear) evangelical clergy not only refuse to receive the eucharist from a woman (headship, I presume?) but also to even be in a service with gay clergy.

The whole idea of the "conversations" seems to me deeply flawed and to have been set on a predetermined course since the aim is we should learn to "disagree well". While this may have been suggested in all sincerity as being a possible route to encourage discussion and exchange of ideas, my experience of the reality is that most of the people there (self included, I'll admit) were there with minds already made up about the church and SSM.

Even more troubling was that the facilitators all seemed to come from one particular theological standpoint - unfortunate at the very least, and dishonest at worst.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Joesaphat
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Which standpoint, L'Organist, if I may ask? And is it not due to the fact that, unless they were self-avowedly Christian, the matter's pretty much settled among non-religious people?
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L'organist
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It was decided to have as facilitators people from an organisation that is (a) Christian, and (b) CofE in foundation.

IMO this was a situation where the need was for people who definitely weren't CofE and, preferably, not even people of Christian belief. Given the time it has taken to get these things off the ground, surely there were other organisations they could (should?) have approached.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Jemima the 9th
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Jemima the 9th
quote:
What happens next with the whole listening process stuff?
Well, that's part of the problem: although Pilling called for some sort of discussion (hence the "facilitated conversations") no mechanism for summarising, reporting back or anything like recommendations was put in place....
Thanks for your insight. Granted I'm unfamiliar with this sort of procedure, but that looks like appallingly bad practice to me.

What a mess.

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Pomona
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Sussex does, in fairness, have some particularly - ahem - eccentric niches of the CoE and other dioceses may be more balanced. I am in Winchester diocese and not holding out much hope here...

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Penny S
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Probably due to the belated nature of the conversion of the place, and the pride with which this has been proclaimed. It may be rolling along well out of synch with everyone else...
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leo
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There's an interesting account by a friend of mine here.

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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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L'organist
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posted by Pomona
quote:
I am in Winchester diocese and not holding out much hope here...
A depressing and, it would seem, entirely accurate reading the situation in Winchester, now that we see Tim Dakin refusing to give Canon Jeremy Davies PTO because he is married.

If I were in one of Winchester's many smaller village communities that has no regular priest, I'd be hopping mad that the bishop sees fit to refuse PTO to a good priest, one who has been in a faithful and covenanted relationship for more than 25 years.

In the meantime, I think that Canon Davies still has PTO in Salisbury diocese so Winchester's loss is their gain.

What a mess.

And another fine example that rather than waiting for the "facilitated conversations" to finish - even prompt action - bishops are happy to move in a stop people exercising their ministry.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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leo
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I've known Jeremy about 35 years and he is a brilliant preacher - I can still remember stuff - not just the stories but the content - of sermons of his.

That's he was a popular pastor is evident from the huge numbers in the maruee outside Salisbury Cathedral when he entered into a civil partnership and by some comments by a friend of mine who was parish priest of a neighbouring church.

The church who wanted him to say mass has had a succession of vicars who left in rapid succession because - allegedly - of unfortunate wrangles with the team rector with whom the bishop sided. The poor people just want a pastor.

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MrsBeaky
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There's an interesting account by a friend of mine here.

I know him leo!

Reading his report and those of several others, ISTM that any conversation is going to be profoundly influenced by the participants' views of Scripture, both its inspiration and interpretation/application.
As these views vary hugely across the Anglican communion I foresee many hurdles in the process of listening to one another.
It makes me very sad.
It also brings me back to my default question in every situation of conflict "What does it look like for me to love this person?"

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Gracious rebel:
Anyone else seen this? This woman speaks wisdom!
Dear Church of England: from a gay ordinand

I happened across her on twitter only this morning. I tweeted to her:
quote:
30 years ago, I made a similar sacrifice. Sorry to say, looking back, it wasn't worth it. Hope it will be different for you.
But such is my view of the CofE that I can only say "hope", not "believe" or "think".

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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