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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Dead Horses: What 'listening process'?
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
What is the current position for Andrew Cain - incumbent in West Hampstead (Edmonton episcopal area) who married his partner in ? June.
I know he was hauled in by +Edmonton after announcing his marriage plans, a meeting Fr Cain described as 'awkward': I'd have loved to have been a fly-on-the-wall for that one!
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE] A pastoral listening to LGBTs who have been damaged by the church's 'traditional' teaching - I am thinking of a suicide and a self-harmer.
True and very sad. It all goes to demonstrate that there's no pastoral listening to anyone who's been damaged by the church whatever their sexuality: damaged people across the board get the impression that they are a disposable commodity.
Now here we agree.
Whatever happened to pastoral care?
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
What's really sad is that seem to believe this grudging, foot-dragging approach will somehow make splits/ schisms less likely and will keep conservatives 'on side'. Fact is, most theological conservatives view them as being spineless.
This one certainly does and knows of many likewise in the CofE who believe the main thing. Why is it that so many of us can see that the view on both sides of the debate is this: if we don't get our way, then we're off.
Both sides threaten to withold money rather than going away.
Some conservative evangelicals refuse to pay their quota/parish share.
Some LGBTIs cancel their standing orders or collection money so as 'not to pay Hitler's gas bills.'
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Where I think we have got to so far:
The bishops are more interested in legislating for the careers of gay vicars than they are in pastoral care. They don’t realise that the ‘traditional teaching’ is toxic – it eats away inside LGBTI people fostering guilt and low self-esteem.
Their concern is only for an internal debate and they seem unaware that by so doing they are turning the C of E into a sect for members only. Whatever side one may take about disestablishment, currently the C of be claims to be the conscience of the nation. Where is its sense of mission? An agnostic said to me yesterday, when I talked about this issue, ‘Why do people put up with this shit? What relevance has a book, written in the Bronze Age, to people now Why do some people beat themselves up about its contents? Why do they pay money to this institution that teaches them stuff from thus book as if it were some oracle from a soothsayer?
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Whilst I would agree that at first glance both 'sides' are behaving like toddlers - red face, foot stamping and screams of "won't" - I think it is possible to distinguish between the two.
In defence of many LGBT members of the CofE, what they're complaining about is the two-faced attitude now exposed AND the denial of the great service that many LGBT people have given the church over the years. Good grief, probably most of us can think of at least one 'bachelor' priest who worked 24/7 without a break for years in an unpromising parish, building it up, ministering in trying circumstances which married clergy refused to touch.
And while at first glance it may look as if they're saying 'let us marry or we'll walk' that is not the case: what is being asked is that the institutional homophobia stops - and stops now, and that they instead be treated to the much-vaunted Christian Charity that so many clergy preach but signally fail to practise when it comes to LGBT Christians.
[Personally I think they should go one further and say that if they are to suffer intrusive and voyeuristic questioning about their personal lives, then so should other church members - how about we start with the members of the House of Bishops?]
By contrast, what some con/evo parishes are saying is this:- We don't want your oversight - no the bishop is not welcome.
- We will preach creationism and no, we won't accept the possibility of an alternative viewpoint.
- We will hold to a doctrine of 'headship' so no, the female Area Dean is not welcome either - in fact we'll refuse to speak to her.
- We will continue to refuse marriage to those couples living in our parish of whom we diapprove.
- We will continue to perform weddings using a form of service we have devised, regardless of the fact that it doesn't fulfil the requirements of the relevant Canons.
- We will continue to actively preach against LGBT people and anyone else of whose lifestyle we disapprove.
- We will carry on with our HR policies which flagrantly ignore the provisions of the law of the land.
In short, they want the umbrella - more realistically they want the building, house and paid salary - but they hold the hierarchy and most of their supposedly fellow CofE members in contempt.
[ 11. September 2014, 12:08: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Twangist
Shipmate
# 16208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The first reading at mass his evening was
nor homosexuals, ……. will inherit the kingdom of God.…
I wonder how many took this at face value - gays go to hell, not heaven.
Wouldn't it be good if bishops, as supreme pastors and teachers of the Church, explained that it depends what translation you read.
Why don't they just ban the translations you don't like and be done with it?
Because, for convenience, we use the missal which had all the readings set out over a two year cycle together with the psalms and collects.
So we're struck with the translation already printed.
Hi Leo sorry for tone of original comment (bit harsh)
Thinking about it, would it have been possible to do the reading from an alt translation and introducing it with comment along the lines of "the Epistle will be read from the X version this evening instead of the version printed in your service book as it brings out the meaning far more accurately"?
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JJ
SDG
blog
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Quite, l'organist. These people do not understand, or if they do understand, do not care, how the Church of England is supposed to work. But curiously one never seems to hear of the Bishops attempting, however feebly, to control their clergy in the way that, for example, Canon Pemberton has been treated by the Acting (acting very foolishly, IMO) Bishop of Southwell & Nottingham.
I would like to think, btw, that if I had been Fr Cain of West Hampstead my response would have been 'At least I've made an honest man of him, my Lord Bishop...'
[ 11. September 2014, 13:01: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twangist:
Hi Leo sorry for tone of original comment (bit harsh)
Thinking about it, would it have been possible to do the reading from an alt translation and introducing it with comment along the lines of "the Epistle will be read from the X version this evening instead of the version printed in your service book as it brings out the meaning far more accurately"?
We don't print out any readings. The missal would only be in the hands of the priest (and of a few of us who bring our own copies and follow the readings to help us concentrate.)
It is quite likely that the priest didn't look at the passage or think about if beforehand - indeed, it the epistle is usually read by a lay person but she didn't turn up that day so the priest would have picked it up after the collect when he realised she wasn't there.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by Albertus quote:
I would like to think, btw, that if I had been Fr Cain of West Hampstead my response would have been 'At least I've made an honest man of him, my Lord Bishop...'
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
How many years is it since my old friend Eric James 'came out' live on television? And we still have the House of Bishops carrying on the noble CofE tradition of trying to be all-things-to-all-men, causing pain to thousands but carrying on with their goal of legislative correctness at all costs.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Amen to that, leo.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]Whatever happened to pastoral care?
It's been sacrificed on the horns of "!issues" and tbh we haven't got many "priests" (or whatever term we might want to use) actually capable of doing it.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]It is quite likely that the priest didn't look at the passage or think about if beforehand - indeed, it the epistle is usually read by a lay person but she didn't turn up that day so the priest would have picked it up after the collect when he realised she wasn't there.
Er, they are set readings - doesn't the priest prepare properly by reading the scriptural setting for that day's service?????
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
1. And while at first glance .....
2. In short, they want the umbrella - more realistically they want the building, house and paid salary -
3. but they hold the hierarchy and most of their supposedly fellow CofE members in contempt.
1. First glances and first impressions are often the influences we retain. It may not be that but it does look like that ..... on both sides.
2. Yep that's it. One con evo friend asked me what he should do: I suggested he step away from a bishop who he can't see as a believer and basically run on a congregational model as a community church meeting in a local hall. After all the church's giving is more than enough to support the staff and activities. he should put his convictions where his mouth is. I don't think it was the answer he expected or wanted.
3. Again that is true -- with certain elements from both sides. No group can hold its head up and claim that it is without shame.
Although no longer an Anglican in practice ( I suppose I am still one by virtue of baptism and confirmation), I also hold the hierarchy in contempt for their hypocrisy and double standards (gay and non gay people alike). The leadership of the CofE has served it poorly: assuming matters would get sorted or go away rather than biting the bullet and making a decision however unpopular that might be. The net result is pastoral insensitivity to everyone as the leaders position basically treats the whole CofE "laity" as idiots.
I'd vote the lot out if it were possible and start again.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Whatever side one may take about disestablishment, currently the C of be claims to be the conscience of the nation.
It's an unbelievably arrogant claim and may prove, in the long run, to be the tipping point of many people's rejection of any church not just the CofE.
CofE, foul your own nest by all means by making that absurd assumption but don't stop the rest of us trying to do mission without the arrogance.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]It is quite likely that the priest didn't look at the passage or think about if beforehand - indeed, it the epistle is usually read by a lay person but she didn't turn up that day so the priest would have picked it up after the collect when he realised she wasn't there.
Er, they are set readings - doesn't the priest prepare properly by reading the scriptural setting for that day's service?????
No - the lectionary sets the reradings.
A priest should prepare for Sundays when preaching.
But this was a Tuesday. Do you expect a minister to look up 6* readings and 3 psalms in advance?
* Morning Prayer - 2 readings plus a psalm
Evening Prayer - 2 readings plus a psalm
The eucharist - 2 readings plus a psalm
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE] 1. No - the lectionary sets the reradings.
2. A priest should prepare for Sundays when preaching. But this was a Tuesday. Do you expect a minister to look up 6* readings and 3 psalms in advance?
1. As I said, the readings are set. By what or whom is immaterial: they are set.
2. Yes. It's called adequate and informed preparation and its honouring to God.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Don't think I would if I were saying the office by myself- in fact, I don't, when I do say the office. But certainly yes, for public worship: if only because you are going to be reading them out loud.
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]It is quite likely that the priest didn't look at the passage or think about if beforehand - indeed, it the epistle is usually read by a lay person but she didn't turn up that day so the priest would have picked it up after the collect when he realised she wasn't there.
Er, they are set readings - doesn't the priest prepare properly by reading the scriptural setting for that day's service?????
No - the lectionary sets the reradings.
A priest should prepare for Sundays when preaching.
But this was a Tuesday. Do you expect a minister to look up 6* readings and 3 psalms in advance?
* Morning Prayer - 2 readings plus a psalm
Evening Prayer - 2 readings plus a psalm
The eucharist - 2 readings plus a psalm
If you're just going to mouth the readings then what's the point?
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
I'd agree with Albertus, the readings and psalms for Morning and Evening prayer don't need to be looked at in advance because, unless you're having a festal Evensong (or similar) you just say the office, whether alone or with others if they come into church.
But readings for a service with a guaranteed congregation - even if just the server for an early communion - demand at least a brief comment and should therefore be looked at before you get to the service, regardless of who is reading them.
All of this should be covered in the year between being ordained deacon and priesting - that is what training clergy/parishes are for. If someone has managed to get to a position of being in charge of a parish and they don't know this then something is wrong with clergy formation.
[Dammit, I'm but a humble keyboard player but I look at the readings for a term's worth of services three times a year and make notes so that I can better tailor the hymns and other music to them: if I can do this why can't the clergy?]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE] 1. No - the lectionary sets the reradings.
2. A priest should prepare for Sundays when preaching. But this was a Tuesday. Do you expect a minister to look up 6* readings and 3 psalms in advance?
1. As I said, the readings are set. By what or whom is immaterial: they are set.
2. Yes. It's called adequate and informed preparation and its honouring to God.
So is visiting the sick and housebound.
Clergy have several calls upon their time in addition to the daily offices and eucharist.
I doubt very much that many clergy make time for 'preparing' readings on weekdays.
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Qoheleth.
Semi-Sagacious One
# 9265
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
[...] One con evo friend asked me what he should do: I suggested he step away from a bishop who he can't see as a believer and basically run on a congregational model as a community church meeting in a local hall. After all the church's giving is more than enough to support the staff and activities. he should put his convictions where his mouth is.
I think something like that is being built at Latimer Minster?
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
posted by leo quote:
Clergy have several calls upon their time in addition to the daily offices and eucharist. I doubt very much that many clergy make time for 'preparing' readings on weekdays.
We're not talking hours here: its a simple case of finding 10-15 minutes to cast an eye over the readings - you can ruminate on them at your leisure later when doing more mundane things, such a driving, washing up, etc.
The trend for clergy to tell all and sundry how pressed for time they are and how stressed is one of the things that many of the unchurched who come into contact with them find very off-putting, if not downright insulting. No, I'm not talking about the 'joker' who comes out with puerile nonsense about only working one day a week, but there are many, many people who work much longer hours than most clergy and have lengthy commutes to and from their place of work.
So if the clergy can't 'make time' that sums it up nicely - they choose not to find 10-15 minutes to look at readings.
Perhaps those responsible for clergy formation should consider 2 things for inclusion in training at theological college: - speed-reading
- time management
Final thought: Working alone - which is what most clergy do - requires self-discipline: does anyone give the newly ordained a template for their working week as a basis for their time planning? If not, why not?
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
What L'organist said, but also WTF?!
1. The readings are when the priest (minister, whatever) will address the most people s/he will ever. Yeah, weekdays less than Sundays, but not unimportant.
2. By the time they are at a pulpit, they should have a passing familiarity with the foundational text of their job. A brush up and a bit of reflection shouldn't be a major issue.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
I'm removed from the CoE discussion on this thread, but I'm still grateful that a self-avowed bishop would come to an internet form and contend with all comers.
Thanks Pete123.
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I first felt that the writings of Paul should be separated from the rest of the Bible when I was in confirmation classes nearly 50 years ago.
The passage of time has done nothing to dissuade me from that view, rather it has strengthened it. And the rest.
This attitude and that of others upthread ("the bible is wrong") cedes the contest to those who would continue the exclusion of gay people from full participation in the church. Their basic fear is that the bible (or the currently inconvenient parts of it) gets pitched over the side when the going gets tough. It is intellectually lazy. It fails to engage in the important work of wrestling with the whole of the text. The church did the intellectually hard work when it came to divine right of kings, slavery, usury, divorce.
Today we're rightly bothered by the genocidal texts of the OT and the anti-gay texts of the OT and the NT.
The answer is to follow in the train of the theologians who figured out the earlier puzzles. The answer is not to give into the basically anti-christian urge to up-end the essential project of wrestling with scripture, tradition, and reason to see where the Holy Spirit is, in fact, leading us.
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
As I've not appointed myself God's mouthpiece, I've really no idea. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
Byron, forgive me for any confusion here, but somehow from some other Purgatory thread, I thought you were an atheist, unless I'm just easily confused... ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
This is a question I, too, would be interested to hear answered.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
How nice that some of you have the luxury of a service every day, so that you can complain about some minor detail.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by leo quote:
Clergy have several calls upon their time in addition to the daily offices and eucharist. I doubt very much that many clergy make time for 'preparing' readings on weekdays.
We're not talking hours here: its a simple case of finding 10-15 minutes to cast an eye over the readings - you can ruminate on them at your leisure later when doing more mundane things, such a driving, washing up, etc.
For goodness sake.
The reading I referred to was meant to be read by a lay woman who didn't turn up - so the priest stepped in at 10 seconds notice,
Weekdays = 36 readings and 18 psalms
Sundays = 7 readings and 3 psalms
= 74 readings
Do we want our clergy to 'prepare' 74 readings per week?
Any clergy prepared to comment?
Any laity prepared to give some slack?
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Garasu:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]It is quite likely that the priest didn't look at the passage or think about if beforehand - indeed, it the epistle is usually read by a lay person but she didn't turn up that day so the priest would have picked it up after the collect when he realised she wasn't there.
Er, they are set readings - doesn't the priest prepare properly by reading the scriptural setting for that day's service?????
No - the lectionary sets the reradings.
A priest should prepare for Sundays when preaching.
But this was a Tuesday. Do you expect a minister to look up 6* readings and 3 psalms in advance?
* Morning Prayer - 2 readings plus a psalm
Evening Prayer - 2 readings plus a psalm
The eucharist - 2 readings plus a psalm
If you're just going to mouth the readings then what's the point?
It ill behoves Friends, who have given up on Scripture and, indeed the Holy Trinity, if not Christianity altogether, to comment on how Christians conduct their liturgy.
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
[...] The answer is to follow in the train of the theologians who figured out the earlier puzzles. [...]
When did that happen?
Christians didn't stop supporting slavery because a group of exegetical geniuses cooked up some ingenious anti-slavery hermeneutic: no such interpretive lens has been created. Christians turned their backs on the "peculiar institution" due to a lack of convincing reasons to justify its cruelty (helped along by industrialization).
In short, change in the church is driven by change in society, with justifications thought up along the way. However you want to describe it, it's not the Bible taking the lead.
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
As I've not appointed myself God's mouthpiece, I've really no idea.
Byron, forgive me for any confusion here, but somehow from some other Purgatory thread, I thought you were an atheist, unless I'm just easily confused...
This is a question I, too, would be interested to hear answered.
Posts: 7462 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
[...] The answer is to follow in the train of the theologians who figured out the earlier puzzles. [...]
When did that happen?
Christians didn't stop supporting slavery because a group of exegetical geniuses cooked up some ingenious anti-slavery hermeneutic: no such interpretive lens has been created. Christians turned their backs on the "peculiar institution" due to a lack of convincing reasons to justify its cruelty (helped along by industrialization).
In short, change in the church is driven by change in society, with justifications thought up along the way. However you want to describe it, it's not the Bible taking the lead.
Even if you're right, the Bible is still taken along for the ride rather than being thrown out.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
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Byron
Shipmate
# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
quote:
Originally posted by ChastMastr:
Byron, forgive me for any confusion here, but somehow from some other Purgatory thread, I thought you were an atheist, unless I'm just easily confused...
This is a question I, too, would be interested to hear answered.
Please, not the comfy chair!
I answered ChastMastr via PM, as I didn't want to interrupt the flow of the thread at that time. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
To repeat it here: along with millions of other Christians, I don't believe in an interventionist sky-god. I am, in terms of evidence, agnostic, and my faith hovers between Paul Tillich and Don Cupitt.
Given your defense of revealed authority, do I understand correctly that you take a more traditional position? If so, as I don't believe in biblical authority (moreover, consider authoritarianism to be, to put it mildly, undesirable), I'm not about to argue it from your perspective, anymore than I'd expect you to argue it from mine.
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Byron
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Even if you're right, the Bible is still taken along for the ride rather than being thrown out.
Absolutely, which is why the hysterical cries of doom from the religious right are so absurd. No Christian is going to "throw out" the Bible; what they will do is read, and apply, it differently.
To see protestants demand uniformity of biblical interpretation is, surely, irony in perfection! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Honest Ron Bacardi
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Posted
Byron wrote: quote:
...I don't believe in biblical authority (moreover, consider authoritarianism to be, to put it mildly, undesirable...
Where did you do your catechesis? That's not the meaning of authority that anyone I know understands in the context of "biblical authority".
quote:
3. An influence exerted on opinion because of recognized knowledge or expertise - (also) such an influence expressed in a book , quotation etc. [OED]
The phone directory is the authority on phone numbers in your area. Using it doesn't make you an authoritarian! That would be a category error.
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Anglo-Cthulhic
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Byron
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# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Honest Ron Bacardi:
Where did you do your catechesis? That's not the meaning of authority that anyone I know understands in the context of "biblical authority".
"Biblical authority" boils down to "because the Bible says-so," so yeah, authoritarian's exactly what it is. It's judging an opinion by its source, not its merits.
quote:
The phone directory is the authority on phone numbers in your area. Using it doesn't make you an authoritarian! That would be a category error.
I doubt anyone would claim the phone directory is revealed truth! If you find an error, you'd expect the company to correct it.
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The Silent Acolyte
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
…I'm not about to argue it from your perspective, anymore than I'd expect you to argue it from mine.
Thank you for your last direct answer.
This was pretty much were I thought we would land. There really isn't enough in common for us have a coherent discussion.
For example, I read "interventionist sky-god" as cant without content. Despite your protestation to the contrary, being agnostic about the bible as revelatory text denies, in fact, its revelatory character. These two, among the others, show you to be arguing against a Cartoon Christianity. I won't be a foil for you.
quote:
Originally posted by Byron:
Given your defense of revealed authority, do I understand correctly that you take a more traditional position?
From your position out on the fringe, locate me in the same camp as the Catholics and the Orthodox. At that distance, it's a serviceable approximation of my views.
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Byron
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# 15532
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
Thank you for your last direct answer.
This was pretty much were I thought we would land. There really isn't enough in common for us have a coherent discussion.
For example, I read "interventionist sky-god" as cant without content. Despite your protestation to the contrary, being agnostic about the bible as revelatory text denies, in fact, its revelatory character. These two, among the others, show you to be arguing against a Cartoon Christianity. I won't be a foil for you. [...]
Er, good? 'Cause I sure didn't ask you to be.
"Interventionist sky-god" is shorthand for "deity as conceived by people who believed in a three-tiered universe and didn't conceive of cause-and-effect within a closed system." That isn't cartoon Christianity (that's all, folks!), it's the chasm between ancient and modern worldviews.
I felt it important to say that people can disagree with biblical authority not out of intellectual laziness, but conviction. Since this road has strayed from the topic, that being said, I'll stop walking it.
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ExclamationMark
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
[QUOTE]I think something like that is being built at Latimer Minster?
Well, as "Latimer" is described as "... an exciting group of talented people called by God to serve the church" ... I think it's very very different. For a start the place I'm thinking of doesn't have a trendy couple with Oxford backgrounds leading it.
I don't have much time for that type of self praising church planting. They'll always get the support they need - others aren't quite so lucky with support esp if you are in rural ministry.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE] 1. Do we want our clergy to 'prepare' 74 readings per week?
2. Any clergy prepared to comment?
Any laity prepared to give some slack?
1. Yes - it's their calling: besides which many don't have to do all those services.
2. Yes - it's my vocation. I make time to do it
3. Probably not. It seems like special pleading to many of them
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE]So is visiting the sick and housebound. Clergy have several calls upon their time in addition to the daily offices and eucharist. I doubt very much that many clergy make time for 'preparing' readings on weekdays.
So do we all - it's not a case of either/or but both/and.
How many clergy actually visit the sick and housebound? Many I know spend most of their time in admin and meetings
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The Silent Acolyte
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# 1158
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Posted
quote:
Byron begins a quick sketch:
…three-tiered universe…
Even Elmer Fudd has moved past Newtonian and Modern worldviews, no longer believing cause and effect to be like calling the eight ball in the side pocket. Your three-tiered cosmos is a Spongian Cartoon; I mispoke by calling it Christian. quote:
…people can disagree with biblical authority not out of intellectual laziness, but conviction.
The simpler, conservative step is to acknowledge that the culture and the heterodox can suggest ways forward to the Church, that the suffusing presence of the immanent uncreated God reaches the Church through the unChurched and the apostate, too. Not principally, but also.
[ 15. September 2014, 14:07: Message edited by: The Silent Acolyte ]
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
[QUOTE] 1. Do we want our clergy to 'prepare' 74 readings per week?
2. Any clergy prepared to comment?
Any laity prepared to give some slack?
1. Yes - it's their calling: besides which many don't have to do all those services.
Yes they do - the daily offices are compulsory for all the ordained - so that accounts for 28 readings and 14 psalms = 42
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My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Callan
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# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by leo quote:
Clergy have several calls upon their time in addition to the daily offices and eucharist. I doubt very much that many clergy make time for 'preparing' readings on weekdays.
We're not talking hours here: its a simple case of finding 10-15 minutes to cast an eye over the readings - you can ruminate on them at your leisure later when doing more mundane things, such a driving, washing up, etc.
For goodness sake.
The reading I referred to was meant to be read by a lay woman who didn't turn up - so the priest stepped in at 10 seconds notice,
Weekdays = 36 readings and 18 psalms
Sundays = 7 readings and 3 psalms
= 74 readings
Do we want our clergy to 'prepare' 74 readings per week?
Any clergy prepared to comment?
Any laity prepared to give some slack?
I would have thought that experienced clergy should be sufficiently familiar with scripture that they can discuss the passages with any laity present in the case of the Daily Office or a Low Mass or offer an impromptu homily if they thought a reading might need unpacking (I once had God smiting Israel with a plague during the census at a monthly healing service, around the time we were all filling in our census forms!). I once had to step in for a colleague at very short notice and preached what the congregation were kind enough to regard as a perfectly decent sermon without any preparation. (I am not suggesting that this is ideal!) IMV an incumbent ought to be able to do this. Certainly I would expect the celebrant at the Eucharist to at least have a dekko at the readings before hand and not to be fazed by the content (Oh no! There are passages in Scripture that can be read as being negative about homosexuality! Who knew!) It would be silly to expect a priest to prepare for every service with the full panoply of commentary and associated reading that one does for the main Sunday service but I don't think that anyone is daft enough to be suggesting that, are they?
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
I've stayed my hand a few times during this discussion, but it has got a bit tetchy and overpersonal at times.
Have a care, please, and remember that on all the boards but Hell, the standard of criticism is that it should be applied to their specific posts on threads, not their track record of posting nor their prior beliefs (unless they have introduced these as a part of their arguments.
No names, no packdrill, on this occasion.
Barnabas62
Dead Horses Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
OK Barnabas, point taken.
The OP asked what listening was going on.
AFAIC none whatsoever.
Pilling was published 10 months ago, yet the College of Bishops only got around to considering something yesterday - nine and a half months after Pilling was published.
The proposal for the next stage - the facilitated conversations in diocese is deeply flawed - how could it be viewed otherwise when 40 laypeople per diocese will be deemed to represent the views of many times their number.
If ++Justin, Synod, etc, really wanted to speak to people about Pilling they would have done the following: - issued a letter from Canterbury and York announcing that there was to be discussion about attitudes towards LGBTI people - all people, not just Christians - at parish level
- diocesans would have issued a letter to parishes asking that they arrange meetings/ discussions within a certain time-frame - I'd have suggested by Trinity Sunday 2014 - with informal vote being taken approving SSM and/or blessing of SS civil partnerships
- open sessions of diocesan synods should have taken place straight after the parish discussions and views reported up to General Synod so that
- discussion papers could be prepared for GS members by the end of October 2014
- General Synod to act on both diocesan discussions and AGM votes to propose and vote on enabling legislation for SSM and for blessing of SS civil partnerships in Summer or autumn of 2015
That timetable is entirely realistic - and it would have fitted in with the 2 year time-frame which has been quoted from the outset and which anyone can see is not going to be adhered to.
There are many things about the whole SSM saga which are profoundly depressing - or enraging, depending on your point of view - but IMO the worst by a mile is the lack of any sense of urgency, and that is doing as much, if not more, damage to the image and opinion of the CofE in the wider world as anything else.
Wake up, CofE: the rest of the world moves at a swifter pace than Trollope and so should you.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Qoheleth.:
[QUOTE]I think something like that is being built at Latimer Minster?
Well, as "Latimer" is described as "... an exciting group of talented people called by God to serve the church" ... I think it's very very different. For a start the place I'm thinking of doesn't have a trendy couple with Oxford backgrounds leading it.
I don't have much time for that type of self praising church planting. They'll always get the support they need - others aren't quite so lucky with support esp if you are in rural ministry.
Ah, Latimer. I think we've met these people before.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
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L'organist
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# 17338
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Posted
A little bird tells me that the good folk at Latimer - while obviously suffering various deprivations by choosing to toil in the vineyards of the Chalfonts, Beaconsfield and Gerrards Cross, are still able to find the inner fortitude to be pretty hostile to anyone from the LGBTI community...
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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