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Source: (consider it) Thread: Dead Horses: Am I an extremist now?
Mudfrog
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When I think of extremists I automatically think of Islamicist fundamentalists, white supremacist boys who shoot black people in church, and those people who shoot doctors in abortion clinics. You know, violence, terrorism, etc, etc.

I understand that a government needs to put laws in place that prevent such expressions of vioelnmt hatred. I support that.

But then I read THIS

Now, allowing for possible 'help the sky is falling!' overreaction of press and religious groups, I am concerned about this. Not because of the inevitable, and understandable, 'well, teachers shouldn't be "preaching" their religious views in school anyway,' but because disagreeing with 'gay marriage' or 'same sex marriage' is not a position confined to Christians and not even religious people; we can all cite examples of gay people who have also said they don't agree with it.

What my concern is with, is the use of the word 'extremist' and more, the possible potential use of the anti-extremist legislation to punish a person who (in the immediate case) dares to say that gay marriage is wrong. Sorry? An EXTREMIST??

Alongside the 9/11 hijackers, the Boko Haram kidnappers, the Ku Klux Klan and IS??

And if teachers might be targetted, when will the government start to say, preachers who read various Bible verses in church are extremists spouting hate speech? Or is the RCL going to omit Leviticus and Romans 1 so as to prevent a government spy in the congregation informing on poor old Father Smith for reading banned literature?

I over state the case for literary purposes, of course.

What about The Salvation Army which, alongside other churches, has in the last year re-confirmed its belief that marriage is the New Testament standard of the voluntary union of one man to one woman for life to the exclusion of all others?

Are we extremists now?
I get that we are disagreed with; I understand that we are outside the definition of the law now, I get that people really don't like us for stating our conviction - and that's OK.

But to label ordinary conscience-and-Scripture-driven Christians as extremists is going a little too far down the road to 1984, isn't it?

An extremist? Me?

[ 08. April 2017, 01:51: Message edited by: Louise ]

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Mudfrog
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Sorry host, I seem to have quoted myself instead of editing my post LOL

(deleted)

[ 06. August 2015, 08:16: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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mr cheesy
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Yes - in two ways.

First, the Salvation Army has always been seen as an extremist religious group.

Second, because you are taking an extreme view. Without debating the dead horse with you, and allowing that you have the right to do what you like in your own building, very clearly the view you have is an extreme one. Almost nothing you could ever say on the issue would make you sound anything other than extreme.

I don't actually think the term extremist is a very useful one, and I can't see how one is distinguishing between acceptable/good religious extremists and awful/disgusting religious extremists.

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arse

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Brenda Clough
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You may find this useful: Yes, we are freaks.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Mudfrog
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Sorry, since when, and by who's authority, has the ordinary, orthodox, traditional view of church, religion, culture and society all round the world for 2000 years and more, suddenly become equatable to murderous, violent, criminal extremism?

As I said, people can - and do - disagree with what churches teach and individual Christians believe; that's not the issue. Call me intolerant, narrow-minded, even unloving if you like: people have a right to express their distaste for Christian teachings, but heck, an extremist in the legal and penal definition of the word??

Am I to be imprisoned with an IS bomber, a kidnapper, a sniper, a person who incites others to kill, maim, rape and torture?

Seriously? A middle aged teacher who tells her class that she thinks same sex marriage is wrong?
An extremist?

An elderly priest who tells a young parishioner that the church teaches that marriage is only for heterosexual couples?

A young youth leader who speaks to a group of his teen fellowship and in the context of a discussion says that his church believes 'one man and one woman'?

All extremists in the new legally defined, punishable way?

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:


First, the Salvation Army has always been seen as an extremist religious group.

By whom?
Against what standard?
And comparable to what?

What, in your opinion, makes us 'extremist'?
What, specifically, is the charge?

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Sorry, since when, and by who's authority, has the ordinary, orthodox, traditional view of church, religion, culture and society all round the world for 2000 years and more, suddenly become equatable to murderous, violent, criminal extremism?

Probably when the authorities put up Jesus Christ in a heat against the terrorist Barabbus.

quote:
As I said, people can - and do - disagree with what churches teach and individual Christians believe; that's not the issue. Call me intolerant, narrow-minded, even unloving if you like: people have a right to express their distaste for Christian teachings, but heck, an extremist in the legal and penal definition of the word??
How would you describe someone who persists in insisting that people who the state law determines have rights actually do not have rights?

What is so bad about being an extremist for views you believe in?

quote:
Am I to be imprisoned with an IS bomber, a kidnapper, a sniper, a person who incites others to kill, maim, rape and torture?
I shouldn't think so, unless you allow your views to spill out of your church and affect bystanders who just happen to be gay.

quote:
Seriously? A middle aged teacher who tells her class that she thinks same sex marriage is wrong?
An extremist?

A state employee in a school should teach what she is told to teach. If she can't, then she can't be a teacher. Simples.

quote:
An elderly priest who tells a young parishioner that the church teaches that marriage is only for heterosexual couples?
No, I wouldn't say that was extremist, unless the parishioner didn't actually ask the priest to do that and the latter was just trying to hector him.

quote:
A young youth leader who speaks to a group of his teen fellowship and in the context of a discussion says that his church believes 'one man and one woman'?
See above. Freedom of religion means you can believe things others find extreme.

quote:
All extremists in the new legally defined, punishable way?
I very much doubt that is the case.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
By whom?
Against what standard?
And comparable to what?

Good questions. I don't know, but will endeavour to research more about the debates centred on the early movement.

quote:
What, in your opinion, makes us 'extremist'?
What, specifically, is the charge?

Having views which are widely at odds with society. That is almost by definition extreme.

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arse

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Enoch
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If David Cameron says one thing, and a teacher says another, then the teacher is an extremist. Obvious isn't it?

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Crœsos
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Sounds like an example of the worst kind of discrimination. If you're going to have a law restricting "extremist" speech, such as calling for war against infidels (however defined) or that certain races are inferior and should be deported immediately, it seems a bit precious to want a carve-out for those calling for the death by stoning of all homosexuals just because it's a "traditional" view.

In short, if your objection is that the law is supposed to be about "them" but is also being applied to "us", I have a hard time taking your objection seriously.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

In short, if your objection is that the law is supposed to be about "them" but is also being applied to "us", I have a hard time taking your objection seriously.

Seems to me the English law is pretty clear to have a distinction between having/expressing abhorrent views (and by those I mean views which are generally socially unacceptable) and doing this in such a way as to provoke violence.

Recently the politicians seem to think that they can distinguish between the non-violent extremists. Seems to me the key is in the name, someone who thinks gay marriage is wrong but never expresses is in anything other than a calm considered way is not doing anything illegal.

But then similarly, someone who supports IS but argues for it in a calm considered way cannot be either.

I guess the difference is that one is very unlikely to be arguing for IS in a calm considered way.

[ 04. August 2015, 14:50: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:

What about The Salvation Army which, alongside other churches, has in the last year re-confirmed its belief that marriage is the New Testament standard of the voluntary union of one man to one woman for life to the exclusion of all others?

Are we extremists now?

Until the govt makes moves to punish the established church or bring it to heel regarding marriage then I don't know what would be gained from using language about 'extremism' on this particular topic. If the CofE can get away with disagreeing with the law then why focus on Muslims or Salvationists, or whoever?

I'm sure there are other religious beliefs or doctrines that might be considered 'extremist' in a secular context, but I think the main problem for the govt is not so much any particular message, but the medium. IOW, it's not what religious people might say, but the way that they say it. It's the context, the kinds of listeners, the tone of voice, the presence of video cameras, the following online, etc.

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Erroneous Monk
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I think on paper I would probably sound like an extremist :S

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orfeo

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No Mudfrog, I don't think you're an extremist.

I also don't think that one MP's reported opinion and one blog's reaction to that opinion constitutes anything like a proper examination of what the law does and does not apply to.

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Doc Tor
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Given my political views, let alone my religious ones, I'm an extremist.

To which I can only give Cameron (and, tbf, half the Labour party at the mo) a two-fingered salute, and hearty 'fuck off'.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I think on paper I would probably sound like an extremist :S

Especially with that sig

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
one MP's reported opinion and one blog's reaction to that opinion

All it really shows is that the Conservative Party managed to retain some of their lunatic fringe, rather than loose them to UKIP, and some blogger had a slow day.

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Leorning Cniht
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Usually, the word "extremist" implies someone who is willing to do violence in support of his views, rather than just someone with views at an extreme end of the range of generally-held views.

An "animal rights extremist" in common usage isn't a vegan, and isn't the person who thinks that chimpanzees and dolphins should be treated as people under the law - it's the person who throws paint over the cars of vivisectionists, or posts letter bombs through their front doors.

Following this analogy, supporters of ISIS and the like are religious extremists. People who shoot abortionists and try to violently disrupt the operation of abortion clinics are religious extremists.

There is a difference between people who campaign for and/or support a ban on fox hunting and people who are hunt saboteurs.

The logic behind the legislation in question seems to be that opposing fox hunting is a gateway to being a hunt saboteur, and so to combat the rise in hunt saboteurs, they're going to ban teaching that fox hunting is immoral.

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Mudfrog
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The problem is that people who 30 years ago - sorry, TWO years ago - held a reasonable, allowable and, more pertinently, legally-supported view, i.e. marriage is a heterosexual union, now find themselves labelled as extremists and targetted by exactly the same law that targets the people who use Youtube to show Christians being beheaded - and they haven't even said anything yet!!

These people - and I count myself as one of them - simply believe that marriage should be defined one particular way: the way it's been defined by common acceptance until 2 years ago.

They haven't altered their views, they haven't campaigned to change any laws, they haven't demanded legislation, etc. They've simply just been themselves and now they are being condemned as extremists overnight simply because they believe something that was perfectly OK a couple of years ago.

If these people - most of whom haven't even thought the issues through - are suddenly extremists, it's in no way because they have suddenly moved to that position!

They (we) have stayed exactly where we were all along and it's the government that has suddenly run off into the far extreme corner and is now shouting at us from a distance through a megaphone for being extreme!!!

It's not us that moved, it's you bloody lot!!
What are you going to do, send us for reprogramming? Re-educating? Assimilation??

[ 04. August 2015, 17:06: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]

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mr cheesy
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That's the way life is, though, Mudfrog. At some point attitudes and the law changes, and things that once were perfectly acceptable become unacceptable.

I think you are exaggerating the effect of giving rights to other people actually has on you, but you have the right to hold a contrary opinion, even if it can be seen as extremist. As far as I can see, as long as you don't incite violence or discrimination, nothing could stop you.

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arse

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Beeswax Altar
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The word extremist tells you more about the person using the word than it does about the person or idea described as extreme.

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The word extremist tells you more about the person using the word than it does about the person or idea described as extreme.

Exactly. I am not asking that the Government suddenly changes its mind on what legally defines a marriage (though I shall still continue to disagree with it and always refuse to marry people even if the law says churches will do it), but I am disturbed that an MP is saying that we are now extremists on a level with IS and all those other violent -ists.

It's not a case of society changing and we've just got to suck it up, this is a case of being told what to think, what to say, what not to disagree with on pain of punishment.

It's all very 'Soviet'!

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Beeswax Altar
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All very Maoist actually

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Pomona
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You do realise, I hope, that this a) isn't actually an accurate representation of the law, that b) none of this is coming from LGBT people, and c) many many many many faithful, Scripture-loving Christians are LGBT and/or pro same-gender marriage?

All this blustering seems to be trying to make gay people into a scapegoat you can blame. Except that actually none of this is coming from LGBT people.

There is, I think, a question to be asked of the government's intense and damaging targeting of Muslims, uni Islamic Societies etc for teaching 'un-British' values when actually Christian Unions etc can be just as extremist. I don't think you're an extremist, Mudfrog, but some Christians *are*. Andrea Minchinello Williams, for instance, is an extremist on this issue IMO.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The word extremist tells you more about the person using the word than it does about the person or idea described as extreme.

Rubbish. How the word is used, tells you about a person not that it is used. There are extremist positions. Look to the right or left of the position. If there is not much further place to go, it is extreme. Even if you agree with it.

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Beeswax Altar
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Really?

Give me an example of objectively extreme positions both right and left.

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Sioni Sais
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FWIW I don't think Mudfrog is an extremist at all. My view is that "extremist" refers more to the methods one uses or supports while Mudfrog is more akin to a "radical" in that he is at odds with what he sees as current ways but wouldn't countenance extreme measures to oppose them.

FWIW, the Chancellor of the Exchequer sent a note to civil servants this week asking for suggestions on how departments could save money. Suggesting the cancellation of HS2, Trident replacement and the aircraft carriers is hardly extremism but is distinctly radical.

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Pomona
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Statist communism and fascism are surely both extremes of the left and the right? [Confused]

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Give me an example of objectively extreme positions both right and left.

"Objectively" extreme? It's not a word whose referent is determined using measurements.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Really?

Give me an example of objectively extreme positions both right and left.

I can give you an extreme policy from close to the centre, namely the eugenics programme in Sweden (and possibly elsewhere) between the wars.

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lilBuddha
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Gay marriage is wrong and should not be allowed. Extreme one side.
Churches should be forced to marry gay people. Extreme other side.
Equal marriage under state law is what should be, let the churches do what they will. Not extreme.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
FWIW I don't think Mudfrog is an extremist at all. My view is that "extremist" refers more to the methods one uses or supports while Mudfrog is more akin to a "radical" in that he is at odds with what he sees as current ways but wouldn't countenance extreme measures to oppose them.

FWIW, the Chancellor of the Exchequer sent a note to civil servants this week asking for suggestions on how departments could save money. Suggesting the cancellation of HS2, Trident replacement and the aircraft carriers is hardly extremism but is distinctly radical.

Thank you, I think that is a good way of putting it. I would agree that someone like Mudfrog is radical, Christian Concern et al would probably be extremist.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The problem is that people who 30 years ago - sorry, TWO years ago - held a reasonable, allowable and, more pertinently, legally-supported view, i.e. marriage is a heterosexual union, now find themselves labelled as extremists and targetted by exactly the same law that targets the people who use Youtube to show Christians being beheaded - and they haven't even said anything yet!!

This isn't really a principled objection so much as an assertion of privilege: that laws penalizing anyone who thinks IS would govern certain parts of the Middle East better than Bashar al-Assad or Haider al-Abadi are okay but penalizing people who go on and on about the perniciousness of homosexuals are beyond the pale.

One of the clearest signs that a law is unjust is when people get shocked and offended that it applies to everyone, not just "those people".

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What are you going to do, send us for reprogramming? Re-educating? Assimilation??

Good question. What exactly is the range of penalties available under "Extremism Disruption Orders"? So far all I've heard is a lot of "OMG!!! The sky is falling!!!1!!1!" but no real details.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Mudfrog
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What is extremist is where a government can suddenly invent a law that targets terrorists and use it on its own citizens whose only crime is to have an opinion that has a longer pedigree than one of the governments own laws.

All of a sudden it's a crime to have a belief founded on conscience. What this government - and other totalitarian regimes - cannot do, is to legislate to control my opinions.

I am not the extremist. The government is.

The ironic thing about this is that my gay friend who thinks 'gay marriage is bloody stupid' would now be considered a homophobic extremist.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Mudfrog
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Interesting bedfellows:

quote:
The National Secular Society and the Christian institute – two organisations with often diametrically opposing interests – said they shared fears that the broad scope of extremism could represent a major threat to free speech.
From This report

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:

Give me an example of objectively extreme positions both right and left.

Extrema aren't "objective" at all. On any particular issue, the opinions held by members of society have some spread. Those at the end are the extremes.

lilBuddha offers "gay marriage should be illegal" and "churches should be forced to conduct gay marriages" as two extremes, and perhaps they are now extremes.

A generation or so ago, the extremes were perhaps "gay people should be jailed" and "gay people should be tolerated if they keep quiet about it".

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
What is extremist is where a government can suddenly invent a law that targets terrorists and use it on its own citizens whose only crime is to have an opinion that has a longer pedigree than one of the governments own laws.

All of a sudden it's a crime to have a belief founded on conscience. What this government - and other totalitarian regimes - cannot do, is to legislate to control my opinions.

I am not the extremist. The government is.

The ironic thing about this is that my gay friend who thinks 'gay marriage is bloody stupid' would now be considered a homophobic extremist.

It is, of course, perfectly possible for gay people to be homophobic. Not saying your friend is, but one gay person not being in favour of same-gender marriage is not evidence that being opposed to it is not homophobic. Neither is the 'having gay friends' defence.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
All of a sudden it's a crime to have a belief founded on conscience.

No, it is not. This is absurd rhetoric. You can believe whatever stupid things you want, as long as they stay in your head. What is against the law is to DO certain things, like impose your personal beliefs on innocent schoolchildren over whom you have a position of authority, or incite violence against gay people.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Boogie

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Teachers can oppose same sex marriage as much as they like, but they shouldn't be teaching these views to children.

When we teach about religion we say 'Christians believe ...' and 'Muslims believe ...' etc. We never say 'I believe' - that would be abuse of power imo.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Teachers can oppose same sex marriage as much as they like, but they shouldn't be teaching these views to children.

When we teach about religion we say 'Christians believe ...' and 'Muslims believe ...' etc. We never say 'I believe' - that would be abuse of power imo.

The problem with this is that there are so many different Christian/Muslim/other religious adherents and they all have different beliefs. Certainly there are many varying Christian views on same-gender marriage. I think 'some Christians believe' is more appropriate here than 'Christians believe'.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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lilBuddha
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Sorry, LC. That is shifting the issue.
I should have stated the issue clearly. The issue in which my examples are extremes is equal marriage. The issue you are referring to is homosexuality itself.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Brenda Clough
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In fact that is true for everything and everybody. Believe whatever you want, it's fine with me. That the earth is flat? That black people were ordained by God to be slaves? That Donald Trump speaks with the Voice of Jesus? Sure, I'm good with it. These are your pathologies -- live with them.

But. The moment your nuttiness impacts other people? There is a problem. You do not get to impose your insanities upon me.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Gay marriage is wrong and should not be allowed. Extreme one side.
Churches should be forced to marry gay people. Extreme other side.
Equal marriage under state law is what should be, let the churches do what they will. Not extreme.

And that proves my point.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
In fact that is true for everything and everybody. Believe whatever you want, it's fine with me. That the earth is flat? That black people were ordained by God to be slaves? That Donald Trump speaks with the Voice of Jesus? Sure, I'm good with it. These are your pathologies -- live with them.

But. The moment your nuttiness impacts other people? There is a problem. You do not get to impose your insanities upon me.

Further proof of my point

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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Gay marriage is wrong and should not be allowed. Extreme one side.
Churches should be forced to marry gay people. Extreme other side.
Equal marriage under state law is what should be, let the churches do what they will. Not extreme.

And that proves my point.
Mind illustrating how?

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
All of a sudden it's a crime to have a belief founded on conscience.

No, it is not. This is absurd rhetoric. You can believe whatever stupid things you want, as long as they stay in your head. What is against the law is to DO certain things, like impose your personal beliefs on innocent schoolchildren over whom you have a position of authority, or incite violence against gay people.
Or, can I add, passing off beliefs as facts. That isn't extremism though, just intellectual fraud.
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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Sorry, LC. That is shifting the issue.

But the issues do shift. At a time when jailing gay people seemed like a reasonable, mainstream opinion, it would be a nonsense to even consider opinions on gay marriage, because any opinion other than "of course the disgusting perverts can't marry each other" would sound like crazy talk.

Consider eugenics. I could present the extreme positions as "no eugenics" and "compulsory sterilization of anyone who scores below 100 on an IQ test", and the middle-of-the-road, non-extreme position as "tax-funded voluntary sterilizations for the stupid" - but these extrema are a function of the way I phrased the question. Although eugenics had some popularity a century ago, any suggestion in even vague support of it is extreme by contemporary standards.

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Martin60
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Well argued Leorning Cniht.

Mudfrog. Your views are extreme. You aren't. Views I have more than shared.

And there are many Muslims who are decent, civilized, utterly law abiding British citizens who believe all manner of insane things, like most Christians who also believe that God is a justified murderer.

NOTHING will change until we've evolved a while longer.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
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I can see what you're getting at, Mudfrog, but - call me complacent - I don't see anyone battering down the door of your Citadel and hauling you off to the cells any time soon ...

If they do, though, let me know and I'll come and visit you in prison.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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anoesis
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Hi Mudfrog,

To begin with - no, I wouldn't style you an extremist of any flavour, based either on your stated concerns on this particular topic or on your postings generally.

BUT I do want you to have another look at something you wrote in your original post. From the way the below is written, it looketh a bit like 'Christians' and 'gay people' are non-overlapping categories in your thought-world. As are 'religious people' and 'gay people'. That is a little, um, concerning.

quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
... but because disagreeing with 'gay marriage' or 'same sex marriage' is not a position confined to Christians and not even religious people; we can all cite examples of gay people who have also said they don't agree with it.



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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --

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