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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: what is the point of second coming prophesy?
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aggg
Shipmate
# 13727
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Posted
I don't understand what we're supposed to 'do' in response to [apparent] OT second coming prophesy.
For example, Zechariah seems to indicate that God is going to be doing apoclyptic judgement on everyone but then protect the elect. So..?
[ 13. December 2009, 17:21: Message edited by: aggg ]
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Myrrh: please, in future refrain from replying to anything I might write
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
Perhaps if the promise from God is that God will indeed fulfil his side of the covenant bargain - protect his loyal people - then all his people need do is stay loyal.
A 'second coming' is more of a NT theme, but the idea links back quite well to promises in the Jewish Scriptures that God would indeed come like the cavalry over the hill to rescue his own.
I guess the issue then is over what one needs to 'do' as part of staying loyal. That, I think, goes back behind those promises to the guidance in the bible about how to live now (justice, mercy, and so on).
The range of applications arising out of 'second coming' teaching runs from "Withdraw into the castle and draw up the moat" to "Launch out into the world with all the vigour you can muster". The best I have hears is: "Plan as though the world was going to last for hundreds of years yet, but live as though Jesus was going to return tonight".
Preferably after the evening match, of course.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I think it's mostly to give us hope. Sometimes he seems SO long in coming.
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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W Hyatt
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# 14250
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Posted
I agree that prophecies are promises from God to give us hope and to help us trust that he has a plan and will eventually put everything right. Of course, hope and trust are easier when you think they already have been and are being fulfilled ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
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A new church and a new earth.
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
Of course, hope and trust are easier when you think they already have been and are being fulfilled .
That's right.
Just like Jim Jones. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Huh?
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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pimple
Ship's Irruption
# 10635
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Posted
Nigel M. I think that advice you quoted may have been pinched - or adapted - from somewhere else: "Live as though you were going to die tomorrow, but garden as if you were going to live for ever." ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 14. December 2009, 13:30: Message edited by: pimple ]
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But at my back I always hear//Time's winged chariot hurrying near (Andrew Marvell)
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pimple:
"Live as though you were going to die tomorrow, but garden as if you were going to live for ever."
What a vision of Hell that conjured up! In another religion, God says to Adam: "The ground is cursed because of you and you will sweat blood and tears to make even one measly potato grow - and in addition I will grant you eternal life so you can sweat over it for eternity!"
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
God wouldn't have known about potatoes -- that's a new world veg.
So the point of the Second Coming is so Jesus can have some decent chips with his fish?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Eternal life with lung cancer -- there's a frightening thought.
We westerners are a tad shy when it comes to labouring The Effect of The Fall, but that seems in line with the relevant school of thought!
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
So the point of the Second Coming is so Jesus can have some decent chips with his fish?
With Lot's wife providing the salt.
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
And wrapped in today's scroll edition of The Daily Maccabee.
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
Hats off to the OP for starting a thread on what is in my opinion a fascinating subject.
quote:
For example, Zechariah seems to indicate that God is going to be doing apoclyptic judgement on everyone but then protect the elect. So..?
Can't say I've really done the minor prophets yet but don't suppose you could give supporting verse references? Cheers.
I think that that the point of the hope - and what we're supposed to do about it - are two different things, not to be confused. I very much doubt that the New England Puritans saw eye to eye with the Ranters on many things - yet the second coming hope that both the Puritans and the Ranters held seems to be remarkably similar.
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aggg
Shipmate
# 13727
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Posted
OK, I've been back to look and it was Zephaniah not Zechariah.
Jessie, the book is quite short so I'm sure you could read it for yourself. But very generally:
Chapters 1-3 is about how everyone (including Judah and Jerusalem) will be punished.
Then 3 v 9 on is about bringing a new day, God coming to Jerusalem and stopping the punishment, protecting them from harm.
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Myrrh: please, in future refrain from replying to anything I might write
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Anselm
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# 4499
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Posted
(n.b. Zechariah also has some 'second coming' prophesy stuff in the final chapters.)
Our expectations of the future shape the way we live now. We do it every day, and in all areas of our lives.
So, as to the "so what?" question, ISTM that the Bible's expectation is that, in light of the Day of the LORD, people will:- Repent of their sin - knowing that God will judge all people
- Entrust their lives to Christ - knowing that he is the one who is able to deliver us into God's Kingdom
- Be encouraged to do what is good and right - knowing that such deed are not in vain
- Persevere through hard times - knowing that God will be faithful in delivering his people into his Kingdom
- Be comforted - knowing that the sorrows of this world are not the last word, but will pass away
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
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aggg
Shipmate
# 13727
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Posted
Y'see the bit you are missing is the 3 and a half chapters about judgement.
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Myrrh: please, in future refrain from replying to anything I might write
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aggg:
Y'see the bit you are missing is the 3 and a half chapters about judgement.
So what is your point?
He is just saying that the wicked will be punished, the disobeident will be chastised, and then things will be much better.
This seems like a pretty good message to me. Recognizing that things aren't perfect as they are, it seems reasonable to have hope that the wrongs will one day be righted, the guilty removed from power, and the innocent liberated.
The point of the second coming prophecies is to put people in the expectation of dramatic future change for the better. The alternative is that things will go on the way they have forever, or that things will get worse. Or even that we are in charge.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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aggg
Shipmate
# 13727
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Posted
In these parts, Christianity tends to be about God's love rather than God's judgement. But of course, your mileage/denomination/country may vary.
In my experience Christians don't want to hear about judgement, so when we talk about the minor prophets we focus on the half chapter which is generally positive and ignore the three and a half which is a bit frightening really.
Also there is the added complication of there being 'no condemnation' for those in Christ Jesus - which is tricky if this is second coming prophesy because the people 'of God' are clearly being condemned.
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Myrrh: please, in future refrain from replying to anything I might write
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aggg:
In these parts, Christianity tends to be about God's love rather than God's judgement. But of course, your mileage/denomination/country may vary.
Can you really just ignore the parts of Christianity that you don't much like? Shoot, that would be so much easier than actually dealing with the whole revelation. Must give that a thought.
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Constantine the Great and Godric of Finchale
-- Saints of the Day (21 May) on The Onion Dome
The Egg Princess: A New Fairy Tale
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aggg
Shipmate
# 13727
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Posted
I'm fairly sure it isn't done deliberately.
But there is much talk of the unconditional love of God. Which is not a characteristic I see from the OT prophets.
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Myrrh: please, in future refrain from replying to anything I might write
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aggg:
But there is much talk of the unconditional love of God. Which is not a characteristic I see from the OT prophets.
Sure people want unconditional love. They also want wrongs righted. That's just another way of asking for judgment.
I think that people in general are hoping for judgment. They just use other words to express the concept.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Evensong
Ship's Pomo
# 14696
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Posted
What to do in response to second coming prophecy?
Be ready. Live every moment as if it may be your last. No regrets
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Scrapbook theologian
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Jessie Phillips
Shipmate
# 13048
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Posted
quote:
Live every moment as if it may be your last. No regrets
I must say, I think that sounds very much like "eat drink and be merry", which very much isn't the point of second coming prophesy. Quite the reverse, I thought ....
But you've touched upon an interesting point. In my opinion, the reason Christians avoid talking about judgement is because very often, when they do talk about judgement, people misconstrue it, they read it as meaning "we're all doomed" - and it ends up with people taking the conclusion that we should "eat drink and be merry, for tomorrow we die."
The whole point of resurrection and the Second Coming is to know that death is not the end.
People don't need to be told that death is the end. They know that already. That's why any talk about tribulation and judgement has got to be qualified with the hope of God's eternal kingdom. If you don't qualify your talk about judgement in this way, then it will simply serve to reinforce the belief that death is the end. What's the point in that?
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
Great point Jessie! ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Evensong
Ship's Pomo
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jessie Phillips:
quote:
Live every moment as if it may be your last. No regrets
I must say, I think that sounds very much like "eat drink and be merry", which very much isn't the point of second coming prophesy. Quite the reverse, I thought ....
Apologies if my line came accross Ecclesiastes like. Wasn't intended that way.
I meant we should be ready to die and meet our maker at any time.
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Jessie Phillips
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# 13048
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Posted
Evensong says quote:
Apologies if my line came accross Ecclesiastes like. Wasn't intended that way.
heh, that's okay. It's probably more of a reflection of my frame of mind that I read your line in that way.
Ecclesiastes is a good book, though, in my opinion, because "what's the point" is a good question to ask. The suggestions that Ecclesiastes makes about how you should handle it if it turns out there really is no point can't be faulted, in my opinion.
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Dovetail
Shipmate
# 13234
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Posted
quote:
I don't understand what we're supposed to 'do' in response to [apparent] OT second coming prophesy.
Gal 3:13
Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"[fn8]),
Gal 3:14
that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
Gal 3:15
Brethren, I speak in the manner of men: Though it is only a man's covenant, yet if it is confirmed, no one annuls or adds to it.
Gal 3:16
Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
What promises were made?
Gen 15:8
In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates:
THE PROMISE OF THE LAND WAS TO
CHRIST!
He is coming back to claim HIS LAND.
What the Chosen need to do is be ready to
GO BACK TO THE LAND (Israel+) AND LIVE in the Kingdom (the Risen Tabernacle of David) UNDER the reign of YH'H's Messiah/Salvation.
ISAIAH 66:23
And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.
Keeping the Sabbath NOW would be a good starter.
Hbr 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left [us] of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.
Hbr 4:2 For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
Hbr 4:3 For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.
Hbr 4:4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh [day] on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
Hbr 4:5 And in this [place] again, If they shall enter into my rest.
Hbr 4:6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
Hbr 4:7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
Hbr 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
Hbr 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
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Dovetail
Shipmate
# 13234
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Posted
Too, Aggg you might want to start skipping the pork chops and bacon.
Isa 66:15
For behold, the LORD will come with fire
And with His chariots, like a whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
Isa 66:16
For by fire and by His sword
The LORD will judge all flesh;
And the slain of the LORD shall be many.
Isa 66:17 "Those who sanctify themselves and purify themselves, To go to the gardens After an idol in the midst, Eating swine's flesh and the abomination and the mouse, Shall be consumed together," says the LORD.
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aggg
Shipmate
# 13727
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Posted
Ah y'see I'm a new creation and not under the law so them things don't apply to me.
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Myrrh: please, in future refrain from replying to anything I might write
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Evensong
Ship's Pomo
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by aggg:
Ah y'see I'm a new creation and not under the law so them things don't apply to me.
You been hangin out with Paul aggg. Matthew might tell you something different
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Dovetail
Shipmate
# 13234
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Posted
That would be a "toasted new creation". ![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
Repenting means the same now as it did when
John the Baptist was calling people at the Jordan's edge.
Gal 3:11
But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for "the just shall live by faith."
Gal 3:12
Yet the law is not of faith, but "the man who does them shall live by them."
Paul was quoting
Deu 32:46
and he said to them: "Set your hearts on all the words which I testify among you today, which you shall command your children to be careful to observe--all the words of this law.
Deu 32:47
"For it is not a futile thing for you, because it is your life, and by this word you shall prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess."
Keeping the commandments of God's Kingdom is not difficult at all. The problem is distortion from the adversary deceiving men/women to keep them in bondage.
This is truly a spiritual fight.
If you truly want a relationship with the Father and Son with eternal life then you need to come back to the "way of life". Repent.
Follow the example of Paul
He took a Nazarite vow (Num 6:13-2; Acts 18:18; 21:17-26)
He made animal sacrifices at the Temple (Num 6:13-21, Acts 24:17-18)
He circumcised Timothy (Acts 16:1-3)
He observed the Sabbath (Acts 15:21)
He observed Passover (Acts 20:6, 1 Cor 5:6-8; 11:17-34)
He observed Shavout (Pentecost) Acts 20:16; 1 Cor 16:8)
He fasted on Day of Atonement (Acts 27:9)
Not to mention the example of our Lord and Savior.
Mark 1:44
and said to him, "See that you say nothing to anyone; but go your way, show yourself to the priest, and offer for your cleansing those things which Moses commanded, as a testimony to them."
Mat 23:1
THEN Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples,
Mat 23:2 saying: "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.
Mat 23:3 "Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do.
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