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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Sheep
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Isaiah 53:7 quote:
....as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
A sheep farmer of my acquaintance tells me that in his experience sheep before their shearers are very noisy indeed. If that is the case then how come Isaiah came up with his seminal image?
Similarly, the same sheep farmer has difficulty with the parable about the lost sheep, where Jesus assumes that a person with a hundred sheep would automatically leave the ninety and nine to find the one that was lost. In my friend's view it would not only be dangerous to expose the ninety nine, but a lost sheep is probably sickly and not worth recovering. It is not, therefore, a parable the Lord's hearers would have found unconvincing? If Jesus saw himself as that shepherd then should we be worried he was so cavalier about the ninety and nine?
Posts: 662 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
Sorry! ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif) I meant "Is it not, therefore, a parable the Lord's hearers would have found unconvincing?
Posts: 662 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
This might explain why north Americans never really got into sheep farming.
Of course in Britain if one of the sheep wanders off the dog goes and gets it while the shepherd is having his cup of tea and a fag.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Isaiah 53:7 quote:
....as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
A sheep farmer of my acquaintance tells me that in his experience sheep before their shearers are very noisy indeed. If that is the case then how come Isaiah came up with his seminal image?
Similarly, the same sheep farmer has difficulty with the parable about the lost sheep, where Jesus assumes that a person with a hundred sheep would automatically leave the ninety and nine to find the one that was lost. In my friend's view it would not only be dangerous to expose the ninety nine, but a lost sheep is probably sickly and not worth recovering. It is not, therefore, a parable the Lord's hearers would have found unconvincing? If Jesus saw himself as that shepherd then should we be worried he was so cavalier about the ninety and nine?
A very fair point, but few parables make complete sense to us nowadays. The principle behind this one is that the nine and ninety sheep would themselves provide some 'safety in numbers': that's what I was taught.
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"I can explain it to you, but I cannot comprehend it for you." (late Ed Koch, sometime mayor, New York City)
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Cottontail
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# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Similarly, the same sheep farmer has difficulty with the parable about the lost sheep, where Jesus assumes that a person with a hundred sheep would automatically leave the ninety and nine to find the one that was lost. In my friend's view it would not only be dangerous to expose the ninety nine, but a lost sheep is probably sickly and not worth recovering. It is not, therefore, a parable the Lord's hearers would have found unconvincing? If Jesus saw himself as that shepherd then should we be worried he was so cavalier about the ninety and nine?
Isn't that the point? That to go after the one sheep is counter-intuitive? Jesus working by different standards to the world, and all that.
Though speaking as a sheep-farmer's daughter, my father would have gone after the one sheep, whether or not it was sickly - though not before ensuring that the rest were safe. Is it so cavalier if the ninety and nine are all in the fold?
I don't know where your friend is from, Kwesi, but this might also be a cultural/regional thing. When my uncle, another Scottish sheep farmer, emigrated to Australia, he was horrified to find that sheep were not 'lambed' there, but were just left to get on with it, and that sick ones were left to die. It was simply because the numbers were so high, the terrain so vast and inhospitable, and the individual sheep worth so little that one could easily spend more on medicine than what it was worth. He kept trying to save the sick ones nevertheless, to the scorn of some of his neighbours!
Actually, the difficulty we always had with the parable was the fact that only one sheep gets lost. As any shepherd knows, if one sheep wanders off, the rest will follow. All we, like sheep, have gone astray, is a closer analogy. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 07. September 2011, 17:35: Message edited by: Cottontail ]
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"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies. And whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first, they must catch you ..."
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
Not being a sheep farmer myself I wouldn't know.
Maybe the sheep of South Ofankor are a different breed.
But it does occur to me to ask how accurate all these sheepish analogies are. As in the hymn "Souls of men why will ye scatter".
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Freddy
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# 365
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Posted
Thank you Cottontail. I like those thoughts.
Another one that we always hear is that the sheep Jesus was referring to were significantly different that European or Australian sheep. They were apparently tamer, responded to the shepherd's calls, and followed the shepherd like dogs. So they were more likely to be silent when they were sheared.
I would take it on faith that Jesus would tell a parable that made some kind of sense to His listeners. What would be the point of telling a folksy tale to make a point if the folksy tale didn't ring true?
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
Cottontail quote:
Isn't that the point? That to go after the one sheep is counter-intuitive? Jesus working by different standards to the world, and all that.
I agree that it is counter-intuitive. The problem, however, is that in the parable Jesus does not present it as such : ""Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it?" Is not Jesus trying to argue that his ministry is in conformity with a common practice amongst shepherds, so his mission to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" is not so odd as it seemed?
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I have camped in the mountains of Romania - there the sheep follow their shepherds (no dogs) and the shepherds sleep outdoors with the sheep. The sheep seemed to me very quiet and 'tame'. I can't imagine them making a noise when sheared.
(The shepherd ended up sleeping, with his sheep, right next to our camp - I think he rather enjoyed watching the young ladies' morning ablutions!)
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365
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Cottontail
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# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Cottontail quote:
Isn't that the point? That to go after the one sheep is counter-intuitive? Jesus working by different standards to the world, and all that.
I agree that it is counter-intuitive. The problem, however, is that in the parable Jesus does not present it as such : ""Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it?" Is not Jesus trying to argue that his ministry is in conformity with a common practice amongst shepherds, so his mission to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" is not so odd as it seemed?
I should have checked the text before posting!
But I don't think that Jesus was necessarily conforming to a shepherding norm. What we don't get through the text is the tone of voice - or the responses of the listeners. Imagine him saying that with a touch of humour. It reads as a rhetorical question, but it might have been a literal one - and might well have got a chorus of responses along the lines of "Not me!" "You're kidding me, right?" "Call yourself a shepherd, you townie carpenter!", etc., etc. In which case he would be persisting in his point that God's standard of care for us is even higher than is ours for our sheep.
But if we take the question at face value, and assume that Jesus thinks this is exactly what a good shepherd would do, then perhaps the safety in numbers thing holds true. A single sheep is vastly more vulnerable to attack than a flock, who can be quite good at fighting off dogs and foxes, especially if there are lambs around. And if any of them get separated from the rest in the shepherd's absence, I presume Jesus will head straight off and look for that one in its turn.
It's a bit like Sophie's Choice, isn't it? Who do you save: the weaker and more vulnerable child, given that they need you more, and calculating that the stronger one might just make it without you? Or so you cut your losses and save the stronger one, so that at least you have one child instead of losing both?
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"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies. And whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first, they must catch you ..."
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
It all goes to show how overlaid with culture / tradition / etc the stories are.
"There were shepherds, out in the fields, keeping watch over their flocks by night".
And we sing "In the bleak midwinter".!!
Its a tangent I know.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Though it does snow in Bethlehem some winters!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Might help to remember that Jesus is talking to people who only have 100 sheep (and that if they're lucky). These are not sheep raisers on a huge scale. One sheep gone is 1% of one's total assets gone. Might be worth looking for in that case.
I'm also told (rightly or wrongly) that you'd probably have more than a single shepherd out with that flock. At least you might have a half-grown apprentice (your kid, maybe?). In which case you could either fold the sheep or leave the other person in charge while you go after the lost one.
As for a sheep before her shearers--how does the modern process of shearing differ from the ancient one? When I've watched it on TV, the thing that stuck in my head the most was the noise of the electric clippers. They wouldn't have had those. AND the speed, which is possible and necessary in a mechanized world with huge numbers of sheep to get through in a day. Still, I'd squeal if I were facing that. Poor sheep come out looking dazed, like they walked through a tornado to find their underwear missing. I rather doubt ancient sheep were sheared quite so quickly or noisily.
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Anselm
Shipmate
# 4499
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
[QB] Isaiah 53:7 quote:
....as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
A sheep farmer of my acquaintance tells me that in his experience sheep before their shearers are very noisy indeed. If that is the case then how come Isaiah came up with his seminal image?
They may make noise, but they don't lodge a formal protest with the R.S.P.C.A. - someone who is 'dumb' is able to make noises, but they can't/don't talk.
By the same token - Jesus, for whom the NT applies this verse, did actually make noises (and indeed spoke) but he didn't protest and rage against their unjust charges.
These are poetic, parabolic descriptions, not quotations of strict guidelines for animal husbandry.
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carpe diem domini
...seize the day to play dominoes?
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
Pushing the boat out a bit further I note with some interest the parallel between the return of the shepherd with the lost sheep and the return of the prodigal. If we pursue the counter-intuitive observations of Cottontail, might we not suggest that the reckless disregard for the ninety-nine within the fold mirrors the father's disregard for the feelings of the loyal elder son?
Sticking with the counter-intuitive theme, when Jesus described himself as "the good shepherd" was this to set himself apart from all other shepherds i.e. he was not simply one of a number of good shepherds? He was unique in his behaviour.
Exactly what sort of shepherd was Jesus?
Posts: 662 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
Shamwari quote:
Maybe the sheep of South Ofankor are a different breed.
They are, indeed! The problem lies in distinguishing them from the goats. It's a wheat and tares situation!
Posts: 662 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Pushing the boat out a bit further I note with some interest the parallel between the return of the shepherd with the lost sheep and the return of the prodigal. If we pursue the counter-intuitive observations of Cottontail, might we not suggest that the reckless disregard for the ninety-nine within the fold mirrors the father's disregard for the feelings of the loyal elder son?
Yes - try preaching that one to an audience of farmers! Most of them know from personal experience how the reckless actions of one family member can threaten the whole family farm. They also know that unless a will has been very carefully drafted, the Prodigal Son, having already received his share, can then claim a further half share when the father dies. Farms have been lost over that. Your average farmer's sympathy is therefore entirely with the elder son.
It is therefore vital to point out the father's words to the elder son: "All that I have is yours." (Not reckless disregard IMO, but tender and patient reassurance.) The elder son is not going to receive less than his fair share, and his loyal hard work will be so fully rewarded, that he need not grudge his brother a fatted calf.
While Jesus didn't extend his parable any further, we might speculate on about what would or should happen next, especially given that this is a real practical issue for many farming families. The younger son is welcomed back into the family - but does he get another inheritance? How does the loving father make provision for him, without cheating the elder son of his rights? How might this parable shape our own behaviour in very similar circumstances?
I guess Jesus' point might be (like in the parable of the vineyard) that God can give the same wages to the less deserving without cheating the more deserving. But I struggle see how that would work in a real-life farming context.
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"All the world will be your enemy, Prince with a Thousand Enemies. And whenever they catch you, they will kill you. But first, they must catch you ..."
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Sticking with the counter-intuitive theme, when Jesus described himself as "the good shepherd" was this to set himself apart from all other shepherds i.e. he was not simply one of a number of good shepherds? He was unique in his behaviour.
I've always understood that when Jesus described himself as "The" good shepherd he was claiming divine nature. Surely he was referencing Ezekiel chapter 34? A lot of the sayings of Jesus are references to or direct quotes from Moses or the prophets, which his original hearers would have picked up immediately but we don't always get.
Personally, I find the extensive use of the "sheep" metaphor in the Bible to be very unhelpful. Obviously sheep were a vital part of the economy in Jesus's community and everyone would have known a great deal about how they were looked after. But living in a large city all my life I haven't had a lot to do with sheep. And what new believers make of it all nowadays I really cannot imagine.
The lost sheep parable works much better for a contemporary audience if you change the lost item to a Pokemon card (or anything else that somebody collects and wants a complete set of - football cards, stamps etc). I really recommend this change, it certainly brought the whole parable to life for me.
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God has shown Himself a sure defence
Posts: 594 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Oscar the Grouch
Ship's Muppet
# 1916
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Posted
With regards to the lost sheep parable, it is interesting that Joachim Jeremias - in his book on the parables - opts for the "counter-intuitive" approach. A shepherd would not normally leave his flock alone and vulnerable to go and look for the one missing sheep. So the parable (in Jeremias' eyes) is one about God going beyond what we would think of as normal. The question of how the parable changed in being transmitted and translated is another matter!
On the whole, I think I prefer this way of looking at it. If Jesus was saying "well - all of you would go and look for that lost sheep, wouldn't you?" He is not saying that much astounding about God. But if he was saying "no shepherd would be so daft - but God is" - well, then he's given a very different insight into the redeeming love of God.
Other than that, I echo the comments of people who have said that we need to be very careful about drawing too direct a line from sheep and shepherds in 1st Century Palestine to sheep and shepherds in modern times.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
Isn't there already a comparison available in the parable of the woman searching for the coin?
I find the sheep comparison unhelpful in that sheep are not generally seen as intelligent beasts - if the sheep Jesus knew were like the fell sheep, hefted to their pasture, of course, this would be different, knowing where they belonged, and knowing their shepherd. And, having a shepherd ancestor back a few generations, I know there's another aspect to looking after the beasts in the long term purpose of the business of shepherding. Keeping them from predators, caring for their diseases, helping them give birth, all that, but to what end? Where did the best lambs round Jerusalem end up? I believe that wasn't in Jesus' mind, or that the shepherd is looking after animals which belong to someone else.
It may be that in his parable he was using a person who was not seen as quite kosher because the duties kept him from a full observance of the Jewish life. (I would like to know if my great grandfather was buried with a wisp of wool in his hand, to explain his missing worship to St Peter. The newspaper said that he loved his sheep more than his family!) Comparing such a person with God, as in the coin parable he compares the woman with God might have something to do with the challenge of this story.
Penny
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Might help to remember that Jesus is talking to people who only have 100 sheep (and that if they're lucky). These are not sheep raisers on a huge scale.
That is a large flock for a small family farm. It was not an age of industrial farming! Palestine then was not Australia now!
Even nowadays in many middle-eastern/Mediterranean/north African countries lots of farmers will have far fewer sheep or goats than that. Sometimes just a handful, enough for milk and cheese for the family, and the occasional lamb to kill and eat for a feast or celebration. Often looked after by the school-age children, while the parents grow crops which are the main business of the farm.
Sheep-rearing in the Middle East is very different from sheep-rearing in Australia. Which is very different from Britain. Which is very different from American (not that they keep many sheep in America, but we've been here before) In Britain hill-farming and lowland farming are totally different from each other. In the weald of Sussex or Kent someone might have thirty sheep on a field smaller than a football pitch, a few miles away on the Downs there might be three hundred sheep covering a mile or two of hillside, up in the West of Scotland a large estate could have three thousand roaming free over an area bigger than a county, and getting mixed up with the sheep from dozens of other farms (they sort them out at shearing time!)
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Shamwari quote:
Maybe the sheep of South Ofankor are a different breed.
They are, indeed! The problem lies in distinguishing them from the goats. It's a wheat and tares situation!
Goats tails go up, sheeps tails go down ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
I've always understood that when Jesus described himself as "The" good shepherd he was claiming divine nature. Surely he was referencing Ezekiel chapter 34?
And a lot else. Its a royal metaphor, and messianic. King David was a shepherd.
Well, so were Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Not to mention Moses. IIRC Cyrus was portrayed as a shepherd as well.
Its a very old image that still survived in Jesus's time. It goes all the way back to Sumer. The (semitic) Hyksos rulers of Egypt, over 1500 years before Jesus, were probably called "shepherd kings" in their own time, and they were called that by Josephus - a contemporary of the apostles.
quote:
The lost sheep parable works much better for a contemporary audience if you change the lost item to a Pokemon card (or anything else that somebody collects and wants a complete set of - football cards, stamps etc). I really recommend this change, it certainly brought the whole parable to life for me.
That's no good because they aren't alive! If you had to update it - and is their really anyone who doesn't know what a sheep is? - then make it a live animal of some kind. A lost dog or a lost budgie. Pokemon cards just don't cut it. There's no blood in them.
But its really better not to because it breaks the self-referential history and poetry of the Bible. You get a cheap metaphor that is forgotten in ten minutes at the expense of cutting the story off from its roots.
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Isn't there already a comparison available in the parable of the woman searching for the coin?
Yes of course. And the Prodigal Son. They are all put together deliberately. The Gospel is not randomly arranged.
quote:
I find the sheep comparison unhelpful in that sheep are not generally seen as intelligent beasts...
Ahh, but maybe that's part the point!
The lost coin had no choice. The woman lost it, then she found it.
The lost sheep had a choice but its not considered morally responsible for that choice. (Even though sheep DO know where they live and they certainly know their own flock) So the shepherd had to go out and find it and bring it home.
The lost son chose to get lost. He knew what he was doing. It was his fault. And then he chose to go home. And his father ran out to greet him (incidentally that's an obvious reference to the story of Jacob and Esau - which is stuffed with sheep!)
All three parables seem to be metaphors for salvation. Do they support the idea that a sinner is responsible for their own salvation, or that God is? Discuss in the context of the ongoing conflict between Calvinism and Arminianism. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
[ 09. September 2011, 14:20: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Kwesi
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# 10274
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Posted
Ken quote:
Do they support the idea that a sinner is responsible for their own salvation, or that God is? Discuss in the context of the ongoing conflict between Calvinism and Arminianism.
This is a very interesting point. Assuming that the parable of the lost sheep is viewed in a Calvanistic context it would seem that the shepherd is not prepared to lose a single sheep: that God's sovereign will is not that some will be irresistably saved and some will be irresistably damned but that all will be irresistably saved.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
While we are on the subject of Biblical animals and thier metaphorical use, what did Jesus have against goats? I love goats! Is it just that they're trayf?
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Now an Alpha Mu Gamma.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
While we are on the subject of Biblical animals and thier metaphorical use, what did Jesus have against goats? I love goats! Is it just that they're trayf?
They are not trayf. In the instructions for Passover in Exodus 12:2-5, the text says that the Passover lamb may be taken from the sheep or from the goats.
I think the problem with goats is that they are harder to handle. I have noticed at 4H fairs that the people showing goats have much more trouble with them than people showing sheep.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Heh. Maybe that's why I like them; they're lively.
Thanks for the info on their kosher status, though, I wasn't sure if they were part of the bad hoof/cud club.
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Now an Alpha Mu Gamma.
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
That's no good because they aren't alive! If you had to update it - and is their really anyone who doesn't know what a sheep is? - then make it a live animal of some kind. A lost dog or a lost budgie. Pokemon cards just don't cut it. There's no blood in them.
I completely disagree. Sheep don't cut it. Not in London. Not any more.
And just try explaining all the Biblical significance of sheep and shepherds to your average un-churched teenager.
[ 10. September 2011, 17:19: Message edited by: Chamois ]
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God has shown Himself a sure defence
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
[QUOTE] Originally posted by ken:
[qb]I completely disagree. Sheep don't cut it. Not in London. Not any more.
And just try explaining all the Biblical significance of sheep and shepherds to your average un-churched teenager.
I think teenagers aren't as ignorant as you make out.
Anyway, Pokemon? ![[Eek!]](eek.gif) How many kids play pokemon with cards these days? At best they've seen the TV program. The age cohort that used pokemon cards are the parents now, not kids.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
I don't know about 300 sheep on the Downs - I've seen a photo of great-grandad about to go up onto Caburn with a mob which looked much fewer than that - about 50 I would reckon from memory and comparison with groups of primary school children, but maybe more. Not more than a 100, anyway.
Living comparisons - those posters about lost cats? Or there used to be posters around Crystal Palace about lost parrots - the owner used to take them out to fly in the park.
When I was in Greece last year, one of the museums had a statue of a young man with a lamb around his shoulders, which had originally been identified as Christ, but was actually a minor member of the Greek pantheon. Orpheus comes to mind, but I can't think why. So it was a common religious image.
I am in two minds about altering things to make them more relevant to modern urban youth. Clearly Jesus was using images relevant to his audience. But the bit of me like the aunt in the Towers of Trebizond is protesting that they should jolly well learn about these things.
Penny
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Chamois
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# 16204
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Anyway, Pokemon? [Eek!] How many kids play pokemon with cards these days? At best they've seen the TV program. The age cohort that used pokemon cards are the parents now, not kids
Apparently you haven't noticed, but Pokemon was re-launched recently with a new set of characters.
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God has shown Himself a sure defence
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
I don't know about new characters, but I do know that my step-daughter collected the cards (now 26) and so did one of my daughters (now aged 18) and both my sons collected, traded and played with them through junior school (now 13 and 11.) I never used the things as a child - I wasn't interested in sticker books or trading cards, and I didn't hear of pokemon til I looked after children myself. We played with and traded marbles.
They have lost interest in the cards now, and play pokemon silver and pearl on the DS machines...
However, my boys respond better to the idea of something lost that is alive and possibly frightened and lonely and hoping to be rescued, rather than an inanimate object. Also, they have enough empathy to realise that my important thing is likely to be different to your important thing - the woman's coin is clearly just as important as their rare card. In fact, just as a teacher shouldn't try to stay too contempory because they're often 'off the beat' (do YOU know what song is topping the download charts today?) and are met with derision if the 'contempory' thing is now 'so last Tuesday', it's better to choose something genuinely timeless and meaningful.
My boys (and girls) would search for a lost sheep, if they thought the others were safe. They get it.
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There's a blog at the bottom of my profile...
http://musicastherapy.org/news/blog.html
Posts: 1732 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
That's interesting. I think the OP and following posts show that a lot of people nowadays have real trouble understanding the sheep metaphor. I certainly do. Good to know some people still get it. I'm not recommending discarding the original metaphor altogether but I find myself that supplementary metaphors are helpful.
As far as the lost sheep parable goes, any item that someone collects is a possibility. Doesn't have to be pokemon - if you collect marbles passionately, try thinking about it as the parable of the lost marble.
I'm sure we've all lost our marbles from time to time.
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God has shown Himself a sure defence
Posts: 594 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
That would be a paralel to the parable of the lost coin, not the lost sheep. There is a reason Jesus told more than one parable, and a reason Luke (or whoever) put them in the Gospel. Replacing a living sheep with a dead branded collectible doo-dah would miss the point. You might as well replace the lost son with a lost hamster. It changes the meaning.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 38283 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Isaiah 53:7 quote:
....as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.
A sheep farmer of my acquaintance tells me that in his experience sheep before their shearers are very noisy indeed. If that is the case then how come Isaiah came up with his seminal image?
I think you mind find the first two minutes of this YouTube video revealing. Basically, if the sheep is "sat up" by the shearer in preparation for the shearing it goes "sulky" (stops doing anything, even goes to sleep in the video) because it knows it cannot escape. As soon as the sheep sees a means of escape (is back on its four feet), it starts to "fight" to get away.
Hence I reckon that unsurprisingly Isaiah has got his sheep lore right, and is perhaps even making a deeper point about the kind of oppression and affliction encountered (namely, an inescapable one).
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Do you like the free webcomic Pang, The Wandering Shaolin Monk?
Kickstart Vol. 2 in print.
Posts: 9282 | From: Birmingham, UK | Registered: Oct 2004
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The Silent Acolyte
Shipmate
# 1158
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Posted
quote:
ken rings the buzzer:
You might as well replace the lost son with a lost hamster. It changes the meaning.
Bless and thank you ken! That is genius and it makes my day!
quote:
from IngoB:
Basically, if the sheep is "sat up" by the shearer in preparation for the shearing it goes "sulky" (stops doing anything, even goes to sleep in the video) because it knows it cannot escape. As soon as the sheep sees a means of escape (is back on its four feet), it starts to "fight" to get away.
IngoB you should turn up here more often. I think your talents largely go to waste in Purgatory.
Posts: 6789 | From: The New World | Registered: Aug 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Not "to waste" precisely, but our IngoB is a fount of information on many fronts.
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The knack of flying is learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss. ~Douglas Adams
Posts: 18509 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
IngoB I never realised Isaiah was an Aussie. Your case is well supported, and I'll raise it with my farming informant! Thanks!
Posts: 662 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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mark_in_manchester
not waving, but...
# 15978
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Posted
A tangent - on BBC Radio 4's obituary program 'last word', an article was broadcast yesterday about bible translator Eugene Nida. Recorded clips described the difficulties he had experienced in translating biblical objects and concepts into certain languages / cultures which might have no obvious linguistic counterpart to that which needed to be translated. A funny example was given of a translation of 'donkey' as 'long-eared animal', for a group whose only experience of such a creature led to puzzlement regarding Jesus' palm Sunday entry to Jerusalem riding on a...rabbit.
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Ecce, pejora facio omnia
Posts: 534 | From: Manchester, UK | Registered: Oct 2010
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LucyP
Shipmate
# 10476
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cottontail:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Cottontail quote:
Isn't that the point? That to go after the one sheep is counter-intuitive? Jesus working by different standards to the world, and all that.
I agree that it is counter-intuitive. The problem, however, is that in the parable Jesus does not present it as such : ""Which of you men, if you had one hundred sheep, and lost one of them, wouldn't leave the ninety-nine in the wilderness, and go after the one that was lost, until he found it?" Is not Jesus trying to argue that his ministry is in conformity with a common practice amongst shepherds, so his mission to "the lost sheep of the house of Israel" is not so odd as it seemed?
I should have checked the text before posting!
But I don't think that Jesus was necessarily conforming to a shepherding norm. What we don't get through the text is the tone of voice - or the responses of the listeners. Imagine him saying that with a touch of humour. It reads as a rhetorical question, but it might have been a literal one - and might well have got a chorus of responses along the lines of "Not me!" "You're kidding me, right?" "Call yourself a shepherd, you townie carpenter!", etc., etc. In which case he would be persisting in his point that God's standard of care for us is even higher than is ours for our sheep.
But if we take the question at face value, and assume that Jesus thinks this is exactly what a good shepherd would do, then perhaps the safety in numbers thing holds true. A single sheep is vastly more vulnerable to attack than a flock, who can be quite good at fighting off dogs and foxes, especially if there are lambs around. And if any of them get separated from the rest in the shepherd's absence, I presume Jesus will head straight off and look for that one in its turn.
I'm not sure that listeners versed in the Hebrew scriptures would have thought that it was counter-intuitive for a shepherd to look for lost sheep. Someone has already mentioned Ezekiel 34 .
quote:
11 “‘For this is what the Sovereign LORD says: I myself will search for my sheep and look after them. 12 As a shepherd looks after his scattered flock when he is with them, so will I look after my sheep. I will rescue them from all the places where they were scattered on a day of clouds and darkness. 13 I will bring them out from the nations and gather them from the countries, and I will bring them into their own land. I will pasture them on the mountains of Israel, in the ravines and in all the settlements in the land. 14 I will tend them in a good pasture, and the mountain heights of Israel will be their grazing land. There they will lie down in good grazing land, and there they will feed in a rich pasture on the mountains of Israel. 15 I myself will tend my sheep and have them lie down, declares the Sovereign LORD. 16 I will search for the lost and bring back the strays. I will bind up the injured and strengthen the weak, but the sleek and the strong I will destroy. I will shepherd the flock with justice.
In addition, Zechariah 11 describes a bad shepherd as one who does not look after the injured and lost.
quote:
15 Then the LORD said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves.
Posts: 200 | From: my sanctuary | Registered: Sep 2005
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Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
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Posted
Contemporary contrasts might be informataive.
Im Matthew the good shepherd cares about his sheep, and is more joyful about getting the lost one back than about the rest who didn't stray. In the Gospel of Thomas the shepherd went to look for his sheep because it was the largest and the one he loved most. Matthew's take on this is different. The shepherd goes after the sheep simply because it has wandered away. In Matthew the context is of a member of the church straying and is in the context forgiving and bringing back a member of the church that strays.
In Luke it is used, along with other parables in that chapter, of the church welcoming sinners.
I also understand that 100 sheep would be a flock owned by a number of families, and that maybe we could expect the other families to look after the remaining sheep while the owner shepherd went after the lost one. The return of the sheep is a cause of celebration for the whole family/church. So if we are looking for a modern parallel there should be elements of communal ownership rather than just individual.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2201 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Silent Acolyte:
IngoB you should turn up here more often. I think your talents largely go to waste in Purgatory.
Not that I wouldn't love to see what he would contribute down here--I would, for the record-- but where Mr B. chooses to "waste" his talents is completely up to him. Let's discuss the topic.
Kelly Alves
Kerygmania Host.
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Now an Alpha Mu Gamma.
Posts: 25283 | From: Waves and seagulls, football crowds, and churchbells. | Registered: Mar 2002
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Chamois
Shipmate
# 16204
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by LucyP:
In addition, Zechariah 11 describes a bad shepherd as one who does not look after the injured and lost.
quote: 15 Then the LORD said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves.
Sounds like the current UK government to me.
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God has shown Himself a sure defence
Posts: 594 | From: Hill of roses | Registered: Feb 2011
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chamois:
quote:
originally posted by LucyP:
In addition, Zechariah 11 describes a bad shepherd as one who does not look after the injured and lost.
quote: 15 Then the LORD said to me, “Take again the equipment of a foolish shepherd. 16 For I am going to raise up a shepherd over the land who will not care for the lost, or seek the young, or heal the injured, or feed the healthy, but will eat the meat of the choice sheep, tearing off their hooves.
Sounds like the current UK government to me.
Host hat on
Chamois, this board is not for political discussion.
Host hat off
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 16796 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
The link between the three parables in Luke 15 (lost sheep, lost coin, lost son) is interesting here. The sheep is being equated to the younger (prodigal) son, 'lost' away from home (in the wilderness / foreign country), and the coin to the older son, lost while still in the house.
Jesus makes an offer not just to the lost sinners, but also to the at-home righteous; both can be accepted into the kingdom, but I guess the question is left open: Will the pharisees and scribes accept the offer?
I'm also intrigued by Luke's use of the verb apollumi in the three parables for 'to lose'; he chose that rather strong verb, rather than other options for mislaying something. The connotation is of something as good as dead – lost with no hope left of recovery – destroyed. That rather puts a heightened spin on the stories: as far as everyone else was concerned, the shepherd was wasting his time looking for a sheep that had a will of its own and wandered off (like the younger son); equally, the woman was wasting time looking for a coin so diligently when there was so much clutter to go through – why waste the effort (so with the older brother)? The rejoicing is understood: if the item sought was as good as dead as far as people were concerned, yet the owner/father keeps hope despite the evidence, then when the lost item turns up again it is a matter of real delight.
I'm off to rummage behind the sofa.
Posts: 2256 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I'm not convinced about the time wasted looking for the coin. When I lost my passport, which I had not returned to its proper locked container at the top of the house (into which I had recently moved and not unpacked everything properly), I went through every room in the three floors, before finding it in a plastic tub in the last corner of the downstairs study-to-be. By doing so, I had ordered all those rooms and found a number of other things I had mislaid, and I dare say the woman in the parable would have done, too. And so would the women among the listeners. There is more rejoicing involved than simply finding the coin. I'm not sure how this helps the parable, but she hadn't just found the coin, she could think "I won't have to do that again for a while."
Penny
Posts: 994 | Registered: May 2009
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
I'm sure that is how it can be at times, both here and anywhere: the search may not be wasted.
What I was thinking of though was what Luke intended his readers (and us) to understand as the key message when he put the three parables side by side like that: they invite us to interpret the three in the light of each other. So the lost coin has a fit, as far as Luke's intention goes, with the older brother of the third parable. Both are lost at home, but Jesus' message was that God would not give up on the older, just as he did not with the younger. The search to convince the older of the need to be at one with the whole community would just take a lot more work!
Perhaps when it comes to application today, there is something in there about those who are already in the Christian community, but who are so focussed on obligations and are resentful of those that God brings into the Kingdom from 'unworthy' backgrounds, that they are in danger of missing God's message and rejecting the real kingdom. In Jesus' time this was the pharisee and scribe crew he faced in chapter 15.
Posts: 2256 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Total tangent, but I really doubt that the woman with the ten coins had that much clutter to deal with. She wasn't that wealthy (though not that poor either, if she's got ten silver coins), and I think clutter in poor to middling households is mostly a modern thing. (No cheap plastic and paper back then)
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 14313 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
That thought did cross my mind, but it is now joined by another. All the listeners would have been aware of at least one other house searching activity - cleaning the house of leaven before Passover.
I also wondered about the Seder search for the Afikomen, the hidden piece of broken unleavened bread symbolising the Passover lamb, and also Isaac, but it looks as though this wasn't done until after the destruction of the Temple.
Penny
Posts: 994 | Registered: May 2009
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