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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pr 29:18 "Where there is no vision, the people perish"... or do they?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
In the AV, Proverbs 29:18 reads as follows:
quote:
Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.
This (or at least the first part) sounds great and tends to get quoted a lot, but even a cursory scan through a few versions shows up quite different readings. For instance
quote:
Where there is no revelation, the people cast off restraint; But happy is he who keeps the law
(NKJV)
or indeed quote:
Where there is no revelation, people cast off restraint; but blessed is the one who heeds wisdom’s instruction.
(NIV)
It's the kind of verse you do well to check the version (or language) you'll be using before preaching on it...
So what are the people in danger of lacking? And what happens if there is indeed none of it? And who is blessed?
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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528
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Posted
It reminds me of 1 Samuel, "Now the Word of the Lord was rare in those days..." which picks up right after the horrific episode at the tail end of Judges, and the summary, "Everyone did what was right in his own eyes."
By simple parallelism in the verse you quote, I think the word for vision/revelation must be a synonym for the Law (Torah) which most of us are probably more familiar with as "the Word (or message) of the Lord." Loosely this would encompass everything from the Scripture to divine guidance, wisdom and leading, to preaching and prophecy, and ultimately to the Holy Spirit's indwelling and the presence of our Lord Jesus himself, the very Word of God. There's just a huge complex of things raised up by that term. And certainly, without those things, the people do throw off restraint and perish miserably.
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Hart
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
The Hebrew words translated 'vision' is chazon (חזון), from the root chazah which means vision in the sense of 'a vision' (as in an oracle from God), not just the general capacity to see. (At least, according the BDB).
...which is interesting because the tendency in Proverbs is for revelation not to be seen as particularly important: the natural world is easily understandable by natural means of perception (because of God's creative providence) and hence there's little need for visions and revelation. This is counter-wisdom for the book.
[ 23. March 2012, 03:15: Message edited by: Hart ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Thanks for those insights. In the French it says that without vision the people are "unbridled".
What strikes me is that a close reading of the text seems to go right against the way this text is popularly used, which tends to be in an almost political sense of giving a group (usually a church) some aspirational "vision" - which may be entirely human in inspiration...
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pererin
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# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Thanks for those insights. In the French it says that without vision the people are "unbridled".
And Young's Literal offers "made naked".
I was wondering whether this was one of those places where the KJV translators were at a loss with their Hebrew and quietly used the LXX, but that has an even more deviant text that means roughly "no interpreter will exist for a lawless nation, but he who observes the law [will be] blessed" (οὐ μὴ ὑπάρξῃ ἐξηγητὴς ἔθνει παρανόμῳ, ὁ δὲ φυλάσσων τὸν νόμον μακαριστός.).
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Heb 11:13 Ps 119:19 Jer 14:8
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
I agree with LC on this. The second half of the verse is complementary to the first, hence being "with no vision" and "casting off restraint" is seen as opposite to "keeping the law" and "being happy".
If applied to the charismatic trend for vision casting and so on, it would point out that your vision had better be from God.
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lily pad
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# 11456
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Posted
This subject has been on my mind since reading, "Without a Vision My People Prosper" by David Hayward. It turned the tables on the proverb but after reading what you have written, I wonder if this is just one more of those oft-quoted pieces of scripture that has lost its meaning? I look forward to reading more on this thread.
Without a Vision My People Prosper - Amazon link
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Some bits of that review really resonate with what I was thinking:
quote:
the 'vision' in the Hebrew scriptures is 'a revelation' and not the same thing as the kind of 'vision statement' that has become so common in the modern world.
The author makes a further distinction between the institutional world of business and the life of the people of God. Vision statements, he says, are fine in the institutional world. They don't work the same way in the world of the spiritual life or the 'church'. Instead, despite all the best of intentions, they end up being instruments of control. 'Vision' shapes the spiritual journey and the life of churches in particular ways that ultimately leave them unable or unwilling to hear the Spirit. The vision, not the people, becomes central. People are shaped to fit the vision.
Maybe I'll have to shell out and buy the book!
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
A modern example would be: ” they can't see the wood for the trees" (Americans tend to say "can't see the forest for the trees".
Israel has God dwelling in her midst and she asks for a contract. What a wet blanket! Talk about romance killing prenupts!! (It gets worse as she asks for in house lawyers/mediators (Moses and Aaron) and later a King (Saul, an alternative, secular forum for settling their case):
1 Samuel 8:18 NET
In that day you will cry out because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, but the Lord won’t answer you in that day.”
(Samuel's sons are bounders, but the Israelites can still turn to God for justice. Now that avenue is closed).
Anyhoo, this has the effect of getting them to get their eyes of God and on to themselves. From now on, performance is more important than relationship. Which turns out to be their undoing, because without relationship there is no revelation.
In fact, absence of a contract works better, as seen here:
Gentiles
Romans 9:30-33 NET
What shall we say then? – that the Gentiles who did not pursue righteousness obtained it, that is, a righteousness that is by faith, but Israel even though pursuing a law of righteousness did not attain it. Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but (as if it were possible) by works.
Jews
Romans 10:3-9 NET
For ignoring the righteousness that comes from God, and seeking instead to establish their own righteousness, they did not submit to God’s righteousness. For Christ is the end of the law, with the result that there is righteousness for everyone who believes.
For Moses writes about the righteousness that is by the law: “The one who does these things will live by them.” But the righteousness that is by faith says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) or “Who will descend into the abyss?” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we preach), because if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
Did they perish? Sure, they lost the presence of God (the physical Temple, an integral part of their empowerment and sustenance, was destroyed), the stewardship of the Word of God transferred to another people group and Israel was relegated to the benches/sidelines.
[ 23. March 2012, 16:14: Message edited by: footwasher ]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
So you think "vision" in Proverbs 28 means "the presence of God"?
If so, why?
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
Matthew 21:43 NET
For this reason I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
Administration of Torah is now in the hands of the Body of Christ. May we not lose vision, as local bodies, or we will also be cut off, 'cause we are wild olive branches...
BTW, Vision is received by having faith in Christ (see above).
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
So you think "vision" in Proverbs 28 means "the presence of God"?
If so, why?
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
Ha!Ha!
Okay so you have the Law, either as precepts or conscience. The written code gives you confidence that it can be followed. But you soon find out that the code needs interpretation. Then you find out it is difficult to actually follow the Law. At this point you can do one of two things:
Admit defeat and fall to the ground and beg for mercy
Or
Deviate from the Law.
Begging for mercy is dying to self. Dying to self results in revelation. God has to do the job!
Hebrews 4:9-10 NET
Consequently a Sabbath rest remains for the people of God. For the one who enters God’s rest has also rested from his works, just as God did from his own works.
We can see that the Pharisees deviated from the Law. The full blown Law was impossible to follow. Their pride prevented them from seeking God. Pride caused their problem, pride perpetuated that problem.
Vision in Prob 28 is revelation on WHAT God's law REALLY IS and HOW it can be followed:
Mark 12:32-34 NET
The expert in the law said to him, “That is true, Teacher; you are right to say that he is one, and there is no one else besides him. And to love him with all your heart, with all your mind, and with all your strength and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices.” When Jesus saw that he had answered thoughtfully, he said to him, “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” Then no one dared any longer to question him.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
Vision in Prob 28 is revelation on WHAT God's law REALLY IS and HOW it can be followed
That view is hardly self-evident from the text, though, is it? I mean the original readers of Proverbs didn't have the benefit of the New Testament, for one thing. What do you think it meant to them? Is this revelation on what God's law "really" is available as of the time of the Proverbs?
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Some bits of that review really resonate with what I was thinking:
quote:
the 'vision' in the Hebrew scriptures is 'a revelation' and not the same thing as the kind of 'vision statement' that has become so common in the modern world.
I'm sorry if this comes across as patronising, but I thought this was done and dusted. I remember John Stott saying something similar in the 80s.
IME the last time I heard this verse quoted in the sense of the OP was probably also in the 80s.
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
WHAT God's law REALLY IS and HOW it can be followed
That view is hardly self-evident from the text, though, is it? I mean the original readers of Proverbs didn't have the benefit of the New Testament, for one thing. What do you think it meant to them? Is this revelation on what God's law "really" is available as of the time of the Proverbs?
Probably known from Adam's time:
Genesis 3:10 NET
The man replied, “I heard you moving about in the orchard, and I was afraid because I was naked, so I hid."
1John 2:7 Beloved, I am not writing a new commandment to you, but an old commandment which you have had from the beginning; the old commandment is the word which you have heard.
2 John 1:6 And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands. As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love.
Think about it , what really causes men to think spiritually, reflect on life... ? Crisis. Crisis is God's grace. When we seek Him, He rewards us with the Word. In the OT times with revelation, in NT times He brings us to the Word:
John 6:65 And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father.
Election is contingent on faith.
The heroes of faith knew what the Law was:
Acts 13:22 NET
After removing him, God raised up David their king. He testified about him: ‘I have found David the son of Jesse to be a man after my heart, who will accomplish everything I want him to do.'
Mark 2:27
23 And it happened that He was passing through the grainfields on the Sabbath, and His disciples began to make their way along while picking the heads of grain. 24 The Pharisees were saying to Him, “Look, why are they doing what is not lawful on the Sabbath?” 25 And He said to them, “Have you never read what David did when he was in need and he and his companions became hungry; 26 how he entered the house of God in the time of Abiathar the high priest, and ate the consecrated bread, which is not lawful for anyone to eat except the priests, and he also gave it to those who were with him?” 27 Jesus said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath. 28 “So the Son of Man is Lord even of the Sabbath.”
The Law is an instrument to manifest Love for God and man. When David saw an obstacle, he knew God had placed it there and God wanted him to rely on Him because that was why God raised Israel, so that people would glorify Him (figure Him in their plans).
1 Sam 17:26Then David spoke to the men who were standing by him, saying, "What will be done for the man who kills this Philistine and takes away the reproach from Israel? For who is this uncircumcised Philistine, that he should taunt the armies of the living God?"
Matt 5:16"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.
Quote
Its not that simple. How does one observe Torah correctly? For example, how does one act rightly here:
Can Jews save non-Jews on a Sabbath
Quote
I never heard Rabbi Soloveitchik say that applying darchei shalom to save the life of a non-Jew on the Sabbath depends on intention. Prof. Yaakov Blidstein, who is a talmid and a reliable source, has written "that although Rabbi Solveitchik did not hesitate to rule that as a practical matter one is obligated to save the life of a non-Jew on the Sabbath, acknowledged his moral unease with the theoretical prohibition."
http://failedmessiah.typepad.com/failed_messiahcom/2007/07/the-ny-times-ca.html
Phew! Dots joined and spaces coloured in. You owe me big time, fella!
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I'm not sure which of those last two contributions I find more enlightening ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
The last time I heard somebody use the text in the 'vision-casting' way was Thursday.
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The last time I heard somebody use the text in the 'vision-casting' way was Thursday.
Then you have my most utmost sympathy. Take some comfort that (IME) large sections of evangelicalism has moved on from this years ago.
[ 24. March 2012, 08:17: Message edited by: Johnny S ]
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm not sure which of those last two contributions I find more enlightening
Some more light then:
The above quote was from here.
www.theologyweb.com/campus/showthread.php?150305-The-Importance-of-Torah-to-the-Jews
The point is that Paul recognises that for 2 millenia national Israel made huge efforts to become a blessing to the world when God had promised that status to them unconditionally in His covenant with Abraham.
All they had to do was wait and let Him act through them.
Psalm 46:10 "Be still, and know that I am God; I will be exalted among the nations, I will be exalted in the earth."
I just got to learn a new word: polyvalent.
Quote
P, it is interesting to note that Wright shies away from an exclusively forensic interpretation of dikaio- terminology in this passage, although he still insists that Paul's usage denotes only p divine conferral of a status. That is, given the context of the dispute over table fellowship in the Christian community, Wright argues that Paul's meaning here is that God has acted through Christ to reconstitute the people of God: both Jews and Gentiles are now welcome to belong to the true family of God on the basis of Jesus' faithfulness, his faithfulness unto death. Wright therefore insists that the verb dikaioö - understood from the vantage point of a person who receives God's gift - refers here to receiving one's status as a member of God's people.35 He later asserts that, throughout this passage, dikaio- terminology denotes a divinely granted status rather than "a moral quality."36 But this way of delineating the exegetical alternatives - "righteousness" as a bestowed status or as a moral quality - simply does not do justice to Paul's presentation. It is not an either-or proposition for him. Nor does "moral quality" rightly capture what is at issue for Paul, which is how those who are given a status are also transformed and empowered to be in a certain way.
The latter observation leads to the third point. Paul himself points to a transformation at the end of the passage in question. There he refers to the "grace of God" (2:21) that allows him - and, by extension, all those who receive this gift through faith- to uve "to God" (2:19).37 In 2:20 Paul describes both the source and manner of his living "to God." The source is "Christ who lives in me." Given the way Paul can employ as synonymous the phrases "the Spirit of God," "the Spirit of Christ," and "Christ in you" (see Rom 8:9-10), it is reasonable to conclude that the source of Paul's living "to God" is the Spirit. And the manner by which Paul does so is this: "Now the Ufe I live in the flesh I live by the faithfulness of the Son of God,38 who loved me and gave himself for me" (2:20). That is, God's saving action brings not only a new status but also a Spirit-enabled transformation by which Paul embodies the pattern of Jesus' self-giving love. Such is the way of life in the new creation (Gal 6:15). This way of living "to God," in obethence to the divine intention for humanity, offers an important clue for understanding what it means to live "to God for glory" (2 Cor 1:20): one gives glory to God by conforming oneself to the divine will and by imaging forth the character of God, which is revealed through God's Son as selfgiving love. The Spirit-empowered transformation indicated here is an essential aspect of Paul's use of d/fcaio-terminology.39
Philippians 3:7-11 supports my claim for a broader reading.
readperiodicals.com/201109/2431732061.html#b
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
So if you had to exegete Pr 29:18, without bringing to bear lots of other bible references, what would you say it meant? Just Pr 29:18.
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
Where there
<0369>
is no
<0369>
vision
<02377>
, the people
<05971>
are unrestrained
<06544>
, But happy
<0835>
is he who keeps
<08104>
the law
The base text is above
The discretionary translation choices are:
"Vision" is translated as "guidance" because proverbs has no theme of prophetic vision with wisdom as guide.
"Blessed" is used instead of "happy" because the Hebrew indicates "inner bliss from knowing one is obeying Gods law".
The KJV use of "perish" is based on one of the meanings of "para" meaning "made naked or perish" 2 Ch 28:19.
Discretionary reading choices is another ball of wax!
Quote
(7) What is the relationship between reason and Scripture? To rely on human reason without reference to Scripture is classic liberalism, but what about relying on Scripture without reference to reason? Is this desirable, or even possible? What do we do when human reason appears to conflict with Scripture, whether on trivia (like the identity of ‘the smallest of all seeds’, or the age of the earth) or on theology (like an all-loving God ordaining that some go to hell)? How should reason and scripture interact?
God willing, I’m planning to do a few posts on these big questions over the next few Wednesdays. If I’m still alive after all that, I might even consider (8) whether ‘inerrancy’ is a useful word or not. Let’s keep thinking, and keep talking.
—-
This is Part 1 of a series on The Biggest Theological Debate Of The Next Twenty Years By Andrew Wilson, King's Church, Eastbourne
http://whatyouthinkmatters.org/blog/article/the-biggest-theological-debate-of-the-next-twenty-years
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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528
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Posted
Um, footwasher, why don't you just learn Hebrew? It's a helluva lot easier than Strong's numbers, which I confess I am way too lazy to go looking up.
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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footwasher
Shipmate
# 15599
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Posted
׃והרשא באין חזון יפרע עם ושמר תורה
Whatever floats your boat. I assumed the translation would be more helpful re the discussion.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Well, since the point in question IS precisely how to translate it... but thank you.
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
This is Part 1 of a series on The Biggest Theological Debate Of The Next Twenty Years By Andrew Wilson, King's Church, Eastbourne
Well that's curious, because the person quoting the text in the corporatist way mentioned was from the very same church movement as Andrew Wilson.
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
This is Part 1 of a series on The Biggest Theological Debate Of The Next Twenty Years By Andrew Wilson, King's Church, Eastbourne
Well that's curious, because the person quoting the text in the corporatist way mentioned was from the very same church movement as Andrew Wilson.
I've heard Terry Virgo's friend , Gerard Coates, speak at Ichthus. I've also (mostly! ) overcome the immature ”them” ”us” mindset and found good in the ministry of other denominations. Just been wading through RC theology and found it very rewarding! It's very detailed, scholarly, consistent and conclusive. The downside is that the lay folk find it daunting
I think "perish" works well because the passage is a list of conditions/situations and their outcomes, and "restrained" seems to be NOT an outcome. Unless it means "made impotent".
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
Oops! I mean unrestrained still does not sound like a calamity, bad outcome. Unless it's meant to convey outtacontrol!!!
Brake lines cut and broken bridge ahead!!!
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OhSimone
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# 16414
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm not sure which of those last two contributions I find more enlightening
The last time I heard somebody use the text in the 'vision-casting' way was Thursday.
I've heard this within the last year or so too - in this instance, the sense was given as "where there is no life objective, the people suffer" which seems even further removed from the OT sense. Justification for the translation was given from the JB Phillips paraphrase, although when I try to verify this I find that Phillips paraphrased the NT and four of the prophets only...
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Johnny S
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# 12581
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
The last time I heard somebody use the text in the 'vision-casting' way was Thursday.
Oh dear.
It looks like I owe you a heartfelt apology Eutychus.
I've just read a letter from a senior leader in my denomination giving a rally cry for a significant meeting tomorrow ... and ... you guessed it. ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Mea Culpa.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Thank you. I trust this thread enabled you to respond appropriately ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Mary Marriott
Apprentice
# 16938
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Posted
It is hard to think of a more pressing text and more appropriate text for our time.
This discussion is very interesting, especially the various translations devotionally useful I should think.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Hello Mary and welcome. Great name. What do you advise ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ?
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Mary Marriott
Apprentice
# 16938
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Posted
Hello Eutychus. Many thanks. - That depends ! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Qupe
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# 12388
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Posted
Hello Shippy-types. Haven't been on board for ages, but enticed back by this post. Prov. 29:18 isn't really typical of Proverbs, but there are some real oddities in Proverbs. I'd guess that it's a very late addition, possibly to do with not having the first Jerusalem temple as the revelaton / vision of God, and therefore needing the law / torah as an internalised means of knowing God. It's v. akin to Provs 1 - 9, and the 'wisdom' Psalms, which are all deemed to be second-temple 'torah piety'.
Don't know where that leaves all the 'vision-casting', though!
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'Knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it in a fruit salad.'
Posts: 802 | From: Down the road from the chocolate factory | Registered: Feb 2007
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Nigel M
Shipmate
# 11256
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Posted
I've been undergoing something of a transformation over Proverbs and the type of literature associated with that genre (usually labelled part of wisdom literature). I was brought up - like most of the posters here I would guess - on the diet that came from the form-critical kitchen: the wisdom literature proverbs were designed for the elite in their schools, those who would one day be the leaders in their societies. These sayings were made deliberately pithy to facilitate memorisation and were all about ruling correctly.
In recent years, however, (well, couple of decades or so) I've come across an increasingly large sized set of literature that draws on the sociological discipline, particularly that part that deals with societies under stress, e.g., those subject to forced migration, the displaced, the conquered, migrants, exiled, refugees, etc.
Some biblical commentators have picked this up and re-read the biblical texts with that sociological perspective in mind. Result? A very interesting slant on Proverbs (among other texts). Far from seeing those texts as the privilege of a ruling elite, restricted to the Temple environs, they resonate with ways of telling one's national story when under the cosh. Proverbs can be seen as a vital lifeline for people under dominion - not just the Babylonian exiles, but earlier and later versions, too. It is a coded message - the surface banal and non-threatening to one's ruler, but the deeper level urging ethnic/national identity-keeping.
It certainly adds a new dimension to Prov. 29:18 when it is seen as an urgent motivation to people who were on the point of giving up, who had been beaten down.
"When vision vanishes, people fall apart.
How lucky is the one who hangs on to the Guide (Torah)!"
Adding to this could be the surrounding message: "Anyone remember what happened to Moab? To Edom? To Samaria? Anyone remember them any more? Where are they now? Do you want to be like that - with no one to remember you in the future? Don't lose your identity - your boundaries!
Posts: 2255 | From: London, UK | Registered: Apr 2006
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Mary Marriott
Apprentice
# 16938
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Posted
This new approach is exciting. Thank you Nigel. Seems to open many new possibilities for deeper understanding.
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'We have to be ready to move forward' she said. 'Maybe this is not how we are meant to be for ever.' (Mina in Skellig)
Posts: 32 | From: the half way house | Registered: Feb 2012
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Not being a Hebrew scholar I am tentative about suggesting what has been offered as an alternative translation.
!Where there is no prophecy the people perish!
If, by prophecy, you mean insight into the current state of affairs (whenever) and a word from the Lord addressed to that situation then the text has added dimension.
Posts: 1511 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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