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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Luke 11: 5-8
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tomsk
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# 15370
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Posted
This parable is in the context of Jesus' teaching on prayer. The overall teaching is that prayer is answered.
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke+11%3A5-8&version=NIV
5 Then Jesus said to them, “Suppose you have a friend, and you go to him at midnight and say, ‘Friend, lend me three loaves of bread; 6 a friend of mine on a journey has come to me, and I have no food to offer him.’ 7 And suppose the one inside answers, ‘Don’t bother me. The door is already locked, and my children and I are in bed. I can’t get up and give you anything.’ 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity[a] he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
The footnote to 'audacity' says 'or to preserve his good name'. The KJV has 'importunity' (which is about excessive asking/pestering).
Is this parable simply saying if you don't ask you don't get? Does v.7 say anything about God (i.e. that we're a pain in the arse)? Or that we're helped in spite of ourselves? Or what?
[ 24. March 2012, 07:10: Message edited by: tomsk ]
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
Much easier if you include the next 4 verses too:
quote:
9 “So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for a fish, will give him a snake instead? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, will give him a scorpion? 13 If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”
The main message that Jesus concludes from his parable in v5-8 is that we should ask.
Why? Because even a grumpy friend will give you what you want if you keep on asking. v11-13 even an evil father will give his son good gifts. So how much more will our loving Father God give us good things (specifically here the Holy Spirit) when we ask him!
[ 24. March 2012, 08:12: Message edited by: Custard ]
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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528
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Posted
I think Jesus is recommending persistence here, because it is a sign of faith. If I persistently annoy my grumpy friend with my importunate requests, it is (among other things) a proof that I believe in his essential decency. The poor guy WILL eventually get up and give me what I need, rather than pouring the contents of the chamberpot over my head.
Similarly, if I keep annoying God, it is a proof that I believe a) he hears me, b) he can help me, c) he really WANTS to help me, in spite of the fact that everything I see seems to be saying "Go away, you little shit." That's faith (see the Canaanite woman who kept after Jesus for a real life example).
I can't help noticing, however, that Jesus has left himself an out. He says "Whoever asks, receives" and so forth. He never says they receive WHAT THEY ASKED FOR. Only that whatever they receive, it will (ultimately) turn out to be good.
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Evensong
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# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think Jesus is recommending persistence here, because it is a sign of faith.
Yeah. IMO it's about persistence. Its about asking.
It jars with the idea that God knows our every need and our every thought even before we ask.
But IMO the persistence and asking is necessary for US rather than God.
Seven chapters later Luke has a very, very similar parable just to bring the point home again. He obviously thinks its important.
quote:
Then Jesus* told them a parable about their need to pray always and not to lose heart. He said, ‘In a certain city there was a judge who neither feared God nor had respect for people. In that city there was a widow who kept coming to him and saying, “Grant me justice against my opponent.”
For a while he refused; but later he said to himself, “Though I have no fear of God and no respect for anyone, yet because this widow keeps bothering me, I will grant her justice, so that she may not wear me out by continually coming.” ’*
And the Lord said, ‘Listen to what the unjust judge says. And will not God grant justice to his chosen ones who cry to him day and night? Will he delay long in helping them? I tell you, he will quickly grant justice to them. And yet, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?’
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
Luke obviously thought it was about persistence as his opening editorial comment indicates.
But IMO Jesus was saying the opposite. i.e. that God is not susceptible to arm-twisting and nagging (unlike the reluctant father and unjust judge)
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Hart
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It jars with the idea that God knows our every need and our every thought even before we ask.
Maybe, but it doesn't contradict it. God condescends to enter into relationship with us not on our terms, but on our level. He won't stoop to sin, which is aberrant, but He will stoop to finitude as that's part of His created plan. Our finitude requires us to ask. His kenotic love drives Him to delight in our asking, as unnecessary is it may be.
[ 24. March 2012, 17:23: Message edited by: Hart ]
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I think Jesus is recommending persistence here, because it is a sign of faith.
Yeah. IMO it's about persistence. Its about asking.
It jars with the idea that God knows our every need and our every thought even before we ask.
There's a brilliant moment in The Magician's Nephew where Fledge and Digory are having a discussion about food. It goes something like this:
Digory: You'd expect that Aslan would have thought about food and everything without me needing to ask him.
Fledge: I don't doubt that he did. But I get the feeling he rather likes to be asked.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
Love that bit.
We're like this in the Lamb household with the little guy. Not on everything and not (I hope) so much as to be pains in the butt, but when LL wants something special--like dinner out, or a new set of Legos, or what have you--if we are minded to refuse, we say no quickly and clearly. But when we are intending to say yes, we sometimes draw it out a bit to increase his pleasure--since he seems to enjoy it so much more when it doesn't come quite so casually.
Of course LL, having a keen sense of observation, has figured out that when his parents are stalling him ("What? Did I hear you say you wanted broccoli for dessert? Oh, sorry, my mistake. You meant spinach, right? Bitter melon?...") that we are in the process of saying Yes. This may occasionally apply to God as well.
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tomsk
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# 15370
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Posted
Thanks for the replies.
Sounds like the passage is not about how God is when we pray but how we should be when praying, with faith and persistence though God owes us nuttin. Helps us to rely on God more. God isn't the woke up friend, he's way out of that league.
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Stejjie
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# 13941
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
Luke obviously thought it was about persistence as his opening editorial comment indicates.
But IMO Jesus was saying the opposite. i.e. that God is not susceptible to arm-twisting and nagging (unlike the reluctant father and unjust judge)
But, there's little to suggest that Jesus is saying "don't be like the man in the parable", or indeed that "God isn't like his friend". Plus, as Custard pointed out, Jesus immediately follows this with the "Ask and you will receive..." passage. Its hard (IMHO) to escape the conclusion that Jesus does indeed want us to be persistent in prayer, to keep on asking. If a man will get up in the middle of the night in the face of repeated cries for help, how much more will God help those who ask, seek, knock?
quote:
Originally posted by tomsk:
Sounds like the passage is not about how God is when we pray but how we should be when praying, with faith and persistence though God owes us nuttin. Helps us to rely on God more. God isn't the woke up friend, he's way out of that league.
Yeah, that's it for me.
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W Hyatt
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# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
But when we are intending to say yes, we sometimes draw it out a bit to increase his pleasure--since he seems to enjoy it so much more when it doesn't come quite so casually.
That's how I see the passages: they're not saying that God likes us to ask for his own sake but that he wants us to ask for our sake. When it takes longer for us to obtain what we wish for, we give more thought and consideration to just how much it is that we want it, we commit ourselves more to obtaining it, and we derive more pleasure from receiving it. I think it's mostly that total commitment to wanting what's good that he's after.
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
Bad faith:
Hebrews 3:8 NET
“Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, in the day of testing in the wilderness.
Good faith:
Esther 4:16 NET
“Go, assemble all the Jews who are found in Susa and fast in my behalf. Don’t eat and don’t drink for three days, night or day. My female attendants and I will also fast in the same way. Afterward I will go to the king, even though it violates the law. If I perish, I perish!”
Daniel 3:17-18 NET
If our God whom we are serving exists, he is able to rescue us from the furnace of blazing fire, and he will rescue us, O king, from your power as well. But if not, let it be known to you, O king, that we don’t serve your gods, and we will not pay homage to the golden statue that you have erected.”
I haven't stopped praying for the Holy Spirit.
Matthew 6:33 NET
But above all pursue his kingdom and righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
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shamwari
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# 15556
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Posted
Its just my opinion but the whole business about asking has nothing to do with God; least of all pleasing Him and even less boosting His ego.
Asking simply opens us up. By asking we indicate an awareness of a need and thereby makes us more receptive to an answer.
In the parables in question Jesus said "HOW MUCH MORE...." which indicates that God is not to be likened to humans who need sometimes to be nagged into a response.
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
God tested Abraham because He did not know if he had learned that God was committed to bless him, testing him with different hardships, to know how he would react as his confidence and his experiences began to coincide. In the past, Abraham had behaved unfaithfully in doubtful situations (the Abimelech snafu, the Hagar imbroglio), but after seeing God's reliability even in those situations , where he had depended on his own inadequate labour, Abraham finally caught on (He entered God's Sabbath rest!).
Abraham found out God could be trusted based on his experience with Him: he had found that God's track record was good. Isn't that how faith works, finding out that a person is reliable and then entrusting Him for future help without holding back? That's how I see faith to be a hope of things unseen (but based on a past record of dependability).
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Latchkey Kid
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# 12444
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Posted
I agree with it being part of a Lukan theme encouraging his church to persist in praying and not lose heart.
See also Luke's use of The Lord's prayer. The disciples ask him how to pray and Jesus teaches them the Lord's prayer as a simple way of starting out praying. Contrast this with Matthew's church where they just love to pray and go on and on praying. Matthew has Jesus saying keep your prayers short and sweet, just like the Lord's prayer.
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'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
tomsk: 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity[a] he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
To me the problem is: it doesn't usually work like that. If I keep nagging and nagging my friend, the most probable thing to happen is that I'll get the door shut in my face.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528
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Posted
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) From the sounds of it, though, the door was already shut and the begging friend was hollering in a window. After all, the homeowner says, "I'm already in bed!" So he's going to HAVE to get up just to shut up the idiot, whether by giving him what he wants or by pulling the shutter (if any) to, and that still may not stop the racket. I don't think first-century homes were all that soundproof.
He could go outside and punch the man out, I suppose, but that would draw undesirable attention from the neighbors...
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I can already imagine the scene... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
But seriously, I don't really understand these things from this text:- Continuing to nag your friend to recieve something from him doesn't always work.
- Continuing to nag your friend to receive something from him isn't always a good, recommendable thing to do.
Yet Jesus seems to set it here as an example?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
well, with GOD...
It's fairly safe with him.
Can't push the parable too far, esp. when we're living outside the context of 1st century Judaism. In that case, the man's lack of hospitality would kick in, and if he still refused to pony up with the bread, his own neighbors would cry shame on him. But not here.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
So, would it be ok to paraphrase the text like this?
"Now, about asking things from God. Do you remember that time that you needed something really badly, and you got knocking and knocking on your friends door at night?. Exactly, he even complained that you woke up the kids. But you kept knocking and knocking anyway, until he was forced to give it to you. You knew that he didn't want to create a scandal in the neighbourhoud, didn't you? You little rascal.
Now, that wasn't a very nice thing to do. But when it comes to God, don't worry about that. You can pester Him as long as you like. In fact, He even likes it when you continue to pester Him. This shows that you really believe in Him, after all. So go on, pester away."
For me, the text would have been clearer if it included those little qualifiers like "You little rascal" or "That wasn't a very nice thing to do" (in solemn First Century Aramic of course). The way it is, it sounds a bit like Jesus thinks pestering your friend is a good thing.
Oh well, you can't have it all...
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
I think the covenant context offers a slightly different view on how this parable should be read.
In that context, within a community where both hierarchical commitments and their resulting neighbourly / brotherly commitments (the horizontal obligations applying to those who are all together in the same vertical relationship obligation), this parable would be understood by an audience then along these lines:
The neighbour has an obligation to support the one asking him for assistance, no matter how inconvenient the timing, because that was the expected behaviour. The audience would have been shocked to hear that a neighbour would betray his friend by refusing to assist. That ran counter to the whole covenant way of living.
The response would have been, "Of course the neighbour would not refuse to help; no matter how inconvenient, he must get up and assist his friend. To do otherwise would be shameful on all the village, clan and tribe."
The implication of Jesus' parable is not that one should expect to ask of God incessantly for eternal life (via the Holy Spirit), but that one should expect God will answer promptly and effectively, without condition.
In much the same way the complaining Psalms ask within the horizon of covenant. They sound grating to some western ears, but are thoroughly biblical! The one asking, if a true member of the covenant community, can expect a positive response for help. If the God of the covenant failed to reply, one had every right to complain.
Kenneth Bailey made this same point about the parable in his Poet and Peasant.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I agree with Nigel. Though in any culture, you find people who fail to live up to the cultural ideal (don't ask me why this is on my mind today ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif) )
So I think Jesus' listeners would have been mildly surprised by the pain in the ass uncooperative neighbor, but not completely nonplussed. We all know people who do such things when they think they can get away with it. But God doesn't fall into that category, thank God.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
@Nigel: thanks for your explanation, it helped me a lot. The book also looks interesting, but I'm afraid it won't be easy to get my hands on it here.
Do you mind if I try another paraphrase? They normally help me a lot in trying to understand Bible stories. (That's one of the reasons why I like the Non-Stop threads in Kerygmania, I'm very glad that you managed to continue the thread on Numbers yesterday.)
So here goes:
"About asking things from God. Suppose that you need something really badly, and your only option is to knock at your friend's door in the middle of the night. Now, just imagine that your friend would say: 'Go away, I'm sleeping already.'"
(Dramatic pause for the audience to whisper: "Ooooooh, the shame! He'd never do a thing like that.")
"Yes, you're right. Of course your friend wouldn't do that. Maybe you'd have to insist a little bit more, but then surely he'd get up and give you what you need.
Now, when it comes to God, don't worry about choosing the right time. When you want to ask Him something, it can be any time you like, and it will never be inconvenient. He'll always listen to you, and He's always prepared to give you His Holy Spirit to help you."
Would this be about right? I could definitely live with this interpretation.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Do you mind if I try another paraphrase? ...
"About asking things from God. Suppose that you need something really badly, and your only option is to knock at your friend's door in the middle of the night. Now, just imagine that your friend would say: 'Go away, I'm sleeping already.'"
(Dramatic pause for the audience to whisper: "Ooooooh, the shame! He'd never do a thing like that.")
"Yes, you're right. Of course your friend wouldn't do that. Maybe you'd have to insist a little bit more, but then surely he'd get up and give you what you need.
Now, when it comes to God, don't worry about choosing the right time. When you want to ask Him something, it can be any time you like, and it will never be inconvenient. He'll always listen to you, and He's always prepared to give you His Holy Spirit to help you."
That sounds good, LeRoc! We could also add a bit in to reflect Lamb Chopped's comment on human nature, so perhaps something like:-
(Dramatic pause for the audience to whisper to each other: "Ooooooh, the shame! He'd never do a thing like that.")
(Second dramatic pause for the audience to quash internal voice whispering “Though you can bet that there's always one who will jump a queue if he thinks he can get away with it. Swines.”).
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
See the issue is not about answer to badgering. It's about witness. Giving glory to God. Making room for Him in your plans. Which is what "saves" a person.
Even after they die, the words of the heroes of faith live on (remember Jesus saying that even if the person who believes in Him dies, he still lives.) Who can forget Esther? ( And Shedrach, Meshach and Abednego...) " If we perish, we perish."
Truly they still live, their words ringing out, even now.
That's the stuff that is remarked on. And leads to decisions. The fastest growth of the Church was during persecution. The blood of martyrs is the seed of the Church. And it is that that blood which lives, cries out. Even God is moved... to act.
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Nigel M
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# 11256
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Posted
I suppose we should also ask the question that sits in the second row here: What is it that Jesus' followers were being told they should ask for? Anything?
Luke limits it to the Holy Spirit, which in his works seem to be the guarantee that God is really behind the movement promising eternal life (and that therefore we should relegate Mosaic law and temple ritual to the second division). In Luke 11 the Holy Spirit is being linked with Jesus' prayer, suggesting the disciples understood Jesus to be saying that the contents of that model prayer are guaranteed by God.
Matthew's version (beginning with Matt. 6:5-15) also suggests that persistent asking was not what was on Jesus' mind (“...when you pray, don't babble repetitiously like people in other countries...”). Matthew puts the mode of prayer in even closer proximity to Jesus' model prayer. Later (Matt. 7:7-12), he fills this out with good gifts replacing Luke's 'Holy Spirit,' but with the same content – 'doing to others as you would have them do to you,' which overlaps with 'forgive others...as we forgive them...'
This does rather suggest that our asking God for 'x' does not mean that 'x' = anything, but limits the content to the scope of Jesus' model prayer, with the only addition of asking for the Holy Spirit as the guarantor of our revived reciprocal relationship with God.
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MiceElf
Not your average mouse
# 4389
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
tomsk: 8 I tell you, even though he will not get up and give you the bread because of friendship, yet because of your shameless audacity[a] he will surely get up and give you as much as you need.
To me the problem is: it doesn't usually work like that. If I keep nagging and nagging my friend, the most probable thing to happen is that I'll get the door shut in my face.
Where I live I would risk recieving an ASBO and a court injunction to not come within a said distance of friend/neighbour.. and a possible police arrest on the charge of harrassment.
Times change.
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What do we want.... Cure for Obesity
When do we want it.... After Dessert.
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