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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?
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drnick
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# 16065
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Posted
You can by all means discuss the theological implications of this question, but my more immediate question is how should it be pronounced, so I don't make a fool of myself doing a reading on Thursday night? (This is a service of light and darkness which includes 14 readings - and I get the one with the Hebrew).
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
I can't easily do proper phonetics, but it should be something like "Ell-oh-ee, ell-oh-ee, lemma sabac-thah*-nee. (*thah can begin with a 't' or a 'th' sound). It is not 'eel-oy'!
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Mockingale
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# 16599
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Posted
Assuming that it's Hebrew, and not Aramaic (the latter was the vernacular spoken in 1st century Judea, but the former may be more likely as Christ was quoting from Psalms), it's either Eli (Ale-Lee) or Elohi (shortened to Eloi in some English translations) (Ale-lo-hee), lamah (la-MAH) sabachthani (saw-bakh-taw-nee).
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
I know it's (probably) incorrect, but I tend to pronounce it "ee-LIE", to make the connection with "He is calling on Elijah" more explicit.
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by drnick:
You can by all means discuss the theological implications of this question, but my more immediate question is how should it be pronounced, so I don't make a fool of myself doing a reading on Thursday night? (This is a service of light and darkness which includes 14 readings - and I get the one with the Hebrew).
Confidently.
Seriously, in most contexts there are going to be very few people who speak Hebrew, so as long as you're confident and your pronunciation is plausible, you'll be fine.
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
Actually, it's Aramaic. Don't get into the translation or the theology: it's a hard slog.
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mockingale:
Assuming that it's Hebrew, and not Aramaic (the latter was the vernacular spoken in 1st century Judea, but the former may be more likely as Christ was quoting from Psalms), it's either Eli (Ale-Lee) or Elohi (shortened to Eloi in some English translations) (Ale-lo-hee), lamah (la-MAH) sabachthani (saw-bakh-taw-nee).
There is a reasonably good chance that it was Aramaic rather than Hebrew (though not the Aramaic of the Targum that we now have). It is obviously hard to be certain when what we have is a Greek transliteration which will be affected by accent etc. and when there may have been a tendency to 'Hebraise' the text to assimilate it to Matthew and maybe the Hebrew of Ps 22 as well.
The challenge of accent is sometimes overlooked. My 'Ell' probably gives insufficient value to the length of the vowel sound. I could have used 'Ale' as you do, but British English speakers, at least, tend to pronounce 'Ale' as a diphthong which is alien to either Aramaic or Hebrew. I dare say that Greek speakers faced similar difficulties. Similar issues arise with guiding English speakers over 'sabacthani'.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
Although I did Hebrew, I try not to be to be to smart-arsed when reading it in church - because the people in the pews are more likely to be thinking about one's pronunciation than the actual text.
I used to know someone who said 'Jes-YOU-ah' for Jesus - made my angry and unable to concentrate.
Pronounce it confidently and, maybe ignorantly, so that people concentrate on the message, not the medium.
[ 03. April 2012, 14:14: Message edited by: leo ]
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tclune
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# 7959
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by footwasher:
Actually, it's Aramaic.
No, I'm pretty sure that God speaks Hebrew...
--Tom Clune
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Custard
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# 5402
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Posted
It's worth pointing out that it's a quotation from the Hebrew of Ps 22:1, written out using the Greek alphabet.
But in Hebrew, the word transliterated "sabachthani" starts with the letter ע , which doesn't transliterate into Greek or English - it's said to be a bit like the sound at the start of the name "Gollum" as spoken by Andy Serkis. The gospel writers didn't have a problem with not writing that sound in Greek - they did the nearest equivalent that worked for Greek speakers.
So you really don't have to worry about getting it exactly right. Read it as it looks in English.
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
It's worth pointing out that it's a Greek transliteration probably *not* of the Hebrew but of the Aramaic of Psalm 22.1 - but not of the Aramaic form of that text we now have. A transliteration of the Hebrew would give us something like 'azavtani' instead of 'sabacthani' - the Hebrew root is ‘zb whereas the Aramaic root is šbq.
The Biblical Hebrew is quote:
אֵלִי אֵלִי לָמָה עֲזַבְתָּנִי
The Aramaic text as we now have it is quote:
אלהי אלהי מטול מה שבקתני
though the Aramaic also has versions which begin אלי אלי
It is hard to tell how far the Markan version has been accommodated to Matthew in transmission - or both to the Biblical Hebrew.
[ 03. April 2012, 15:13: Message edited by: BroJames ]
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footwasher
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# 15599
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Posted
I understand the Syriac version of the NT is a translation of the Greek NT (Syriac is a later form of Aramaic than that spoken by Jesus; word meanings might not be identical). The Lamas version quotes the Aramaic version of Psalms directly.
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
I could have used 'Ale' as you do, but British English speakers, at least, tend to pronounce 'Ale' as a diphthong which is alien to either Aramaic or Hebrew.
I haven't got the slightest idea what sounds are meant by "ale" here. Or even whether you mean it to be one or two syllables.
Any chance of using the IPA symbols?. Or if not then the key words in lexical sets
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Ken
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I was given to understand whilst I was taking Hebrew in college back in 19mumble, that it's definitely Aramaic because the Hebrew would be transliterated Eli not Eloi. BroJames' point, however is an interesting one -- given the letter he (pron. hay) it would seem that the Aramaic is based on the singular Eloh rather than El -- from which we get the plural Elohim, one of the titles of God in the OT. Whereas the singular used in the Hebrew part of the OT is (maybe all but at least in the vast majority of cases), El. Which makes it all the more likely it was Aramaic, if Aramaic regularly uses Eloh where Hebrew uses El.
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BroJames
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# 9636
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Posted
I've had a look at the IPA and lexical sets linked in your post, ken, and I just can't see how to use them. Partly it's because the symbols are matched to English pronunciations and the initial vowel in 'Eloi' should have a distinctly non-English quality.
Both ɛ and eɪ (IPA) come close but I think the IPA eː for the German Klee is probably closer than either. Wikipedia suggests e (IPA) for the Hebrew/Aramaic original which Mark and Matthew transliterate into Greek, and e (IPA) for the Greek which results. But e (IPA) is not listed at all for any English vowel sounds.
[ 03. April 2012, 17:19: Message edited by: BroJames ]
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
Confidently.
Seriously, in most contexts there are going to be very few people who speak Hebrew, so as long as you're confident and your pronunciation is plausible, you'll be fine.
Quite. And whether our Lord spoke Hebrew or Aramaic in his last agony, we have no idea of his accent.
Pronounce as spelt.
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Custard:
Seriously, in most contexts there are going to be very few people who speak Hebrew, so as long as you're confident and your pronunciation is plausible, you'll be fine.
If you don't sound completely confident, the listeners' attention will be diverted from the meaning of the text. They will pay attention to your hesitation rather than to what you are reading.
Naturally you want to pronounce things correctly, but if most of the listeners won't recognize a mispronunciation, a smooth, confident reading is more important than accuracy.
In various Bible studies people have admired my ability to pronounce Bible names. I don't really know how, but I do know that it is much easier for listeners to pay attention to the meaning of the text if they're not distracted by hesitations.
Moo
[ 03. April 2012, 19:47: Message edited by: Moo ]
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
If I'm reading it in a place or setting where people are not following it in their own Bibles I completely omit it and just read the English translation. For example, at the Good Friday open air service.
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
It's Klingon, dudes. Really. How hard is this?
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Spring fever is a beautiful thing.
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Ariel
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# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
A transliteration of the Hebrew would give us something like 'azavtani' instead of 'sabacthani' - the Hebrew root is ‘zb whereas the Aramaic root is šbq.
The Aramaic is actually surprisingly close to modern Arabic, although I had to look up "sabachthani". (I was intrigued enough to check this out some months ago.) I can't now remember whether it was šbq or sbq and don't have a roots dictionary handy, but either way the triliteral root seemed to suggest outrunning, suddenly leaving behind, etc.
The pronunciation is the interesting bit because in modern Arabic it isn't pronounced in the way you're more used to hearing - the stress is on different syllables and I would try it either with "Ellee" or "Allah" in any case. But I think for a congregation in the West, who won't be expecting a sort of native pronunciation, go with it as it's traditionally pronounced, rather than aim for authenticity.
Languages change in a couple of millennia and although there are still Aramaic speakers around today, you can't be entirely certain that they'd pronounce it in quite the same way that Jesus did. He probably had a Galilean accent, anyway (if I remember correctly?) and we're not told what that sounded like.
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Spike
Hetero-overlord
# 36
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Posted
I once asked a priest what the correct pronunciation was. His response was "it depends on which theological college you went to"
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