homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » Kerygmania   » David and Bathsheba

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.    
Source: (consider it) Thread: David and Bathsheba
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The Incident

Seems like out English translations have problems with this story.

Instead of saying "David slept [with Bathsheba]" I think it should be translated, "David took her."

In other words, the story is about a rape, not consensual sex between two adults.


Host note: corrected spelling

[ 07. June 2017, 22:40: Message edited by: Moo ]

Posts: 1837 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The whole issue of consent was kind of foggy, in that period. You didn't actually need to discuss sex with the woman. All you needed to do was cut a deal with her father or brother, and you were in good shape. David's actual sin didn't really involve sex. (Samuel didn't discuss it.) It involved offing Uriah to cover the theft of his wife.
The text doesn't even consider Bathsheba's intent. For all we know she was delighted to shag David, the way there are women (we must assume, somewhere, because there are stupid women) who would even now be willing to shag Donald Trump. Or, Bathsheba might have rationalized it by thinking this would advance her husband's career.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4709 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Could some Kind Host please correct the spelling mistake in the thread title?

[Paranoid]

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7743 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274

 - Posted      Profile for Kwesi   Email Kwesi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Brenda Clough
quote:
The whole issue of consent was kind of foggy, in that period.
......or any period one cares to mention?
Posts: 1419 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The mind boggles. trumpy as King David grabbing pussy because when you're famous they just let you do it.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10417 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The whole issue of consent was kind of foggy, in that period. You didn't actually need to discuss sex with the woman. All you needed to do was cut a deal with her father or brother, and you were in good shape. David's actual sin didn't really involve sex. (Samuel didn't discuss it.) It involved offing Uriah to cover the theft of his wife.
The text doesn't even consider Bathsheba's intent. For all we know she was delighted to shag David, the way there are women (we must assume, somewhere, because there are stupid women) who would even now be willing to shag Donald Trump. Or, Bathsheba might have rationalized it by thinking this would advance her husband's career.

But the text does say that God was displeased with what David had done, not with what David and Bathsheba had done.

I think rape is probably about right. David was king, so there was a power gap beyond male-female. He had to ask who she was when he saw her bathing on the roof, which would appear to have been her mikveh, and he sent for her simply because he thought she was beautiful and he wanted himself some of that.

Realistically, she was probably a teenager—old enough to have passed puberty and to be married, but she hadn't had a child yet. Messengers just showed up at her door at night and told her the king had summoned her because he wanted her.

Yeah, consent may have been quite a different deal then, but realistically speaking, I imagine she had very little choice.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2286 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

Realistically, she was probably a teenager—old enough to have passed puberty and to be married, but she hadn't had a child yet. Messengers just showed up at her door at night and told her the king had summoned her because he wanted her.

Yeah, consent may have been quite a different deal then, but realistically speaking, I imagine she had very little choice.

She would have had next to no choice, I'd say, but where did you get the first quoted paragraph from? It may well be right but I can't think of any basis in the text for it apart from the call by the messengers.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6248 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Brenda Clough
quote:
The whole issue of consent was kind of foggy, in that period.
......or any period one cares to mention?
I would say that now, in this era, we are finally approaching real consent. For women of the right nationality, the correct socioeconomic class, etc. Up, in other words, from zero.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4709 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

Realistically, she was probably a teenager—old enough to have passed puberty and to be married, but she hadn't had a child yet. Messengers just showed up at her door at night and told her the king had summoned her because he wanted her.

Yeah, consent may have been quite a different deal then, but realistically speaking, I imagine she had very little choice.

She would have had next to no choice, I'd say, but where did you get the first quoted paragraph from? It may well be right but I can't think of any basis in the text for it apart from the call by the messengers.
No, it's not in the text, per se, except to the extent that no children with Uriah are mentioned. It's just deduction/informed speculation from what is known about the culture generally. And it might be wrong.

Girls were considered women at puberty. Often they were betrothed at around 9 or 10, and then married around the time of puberty, say 12 or 13. Clearly Bathsheba was not barren, so if the lack of mention of any child with Uriah indeed means that she had no children yet when David slept with her, it's not unreasonable to take from that that she hadn't been married long. Even if she and Uriah had been married 3 or 4 years, that could still have her in the 16–17 year old range.

Meanwhile David was considerably older and was king.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2286 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
... and since the average healthy couple has an 85% chance of a pregnancy in their first year together, I'm guessing it was a very recent marriage, and Bathsheba quite a young teenager. She is after all the granddaughter of Ahithophel, David's counselor, who turned against him after this episode and supported his son's rebellion. So there at least is one man who took the impact on his granddaughter very, very seriously. And the fact that he is apparently in good health at the time of his suicide (able to ride, travel, plot, etc.) suggests he is not what we would consider "old"--let's say maybe sixty at most. Yet his granddaughter is married.

I really do think the Lord considered the rape as well as Uriah's death--he does characterize Bathsheba as a hapless innocent lamb, which is about as exonerating as you can get. Uriah's death probably got the emphasis after "you are the man!" because there was no possibility whatsoever of making reparations to him, unlike Bathsheba, who was still alive to receive them. (Anybody else think this might have something to do with the reason David designated her next son as heir?)

[ 08. June 2017, 04:44: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19634 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes, you could both be right, but as the Scots would say "not proven".

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6248 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Yes, you could both be right, but as the Scots would say "not proven".

Which is why I said "realistically, she was probably a teenager." We can't be sure from the text, but in context it seems more likely than not.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2286 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I'd describe it as a real possibility.

I recall the last time it came up in the lectionary. The woman who did the reading was then in her early 80s. She would have known the account for most of a long life, and probably read it in church more than once - then her preparation for reading it this day. She got to verse 15 and the enormity of what David had done really struck her as if she had just read it for the first time - she stopped, stunned, and found it hard to finish the reading.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6248 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530

 - Posted      Profile for stonespring     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
quote:
Originally posted by Kwesi:
Brenda Clough
quote:
The whole issue of consent was kind of foggy, in that period.
......or any period one cares to mention?
I would say that now, in this era, we are finally approaching real consent. For women of the right nationality, the correct socioeconomic class, etc. Up, in other words, from zero.
Is it safe to assume that most sex for most of human history, in or out of marriage, would be considered non-consensual if not outright rape by modern standards?
Posts: 1395 | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
No, of course not. Most relationships are unequal (perfect symmetry is always rare) but most men are not rapists. What we have now, that was very rare in the past, was the awareness of this.
Charlotte Bronte's curate husband sincerely adored her. But she married him, not for love (at the outset) but because she had to marry her father's curate and no other man would do. It would never have occurred to Arthur Nichols to deplore her lack of options; that was life. I resort to a historical example only because we can safely discuss them without dragging personalities into itt; there are many interesting cases in modern life in the tabloids.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4709 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think that it is interesting that the trope, "oh, but she led him on, the filthy little slut" is nowhere deployed in the Bible. Which given that David is one of the good guys and the Bible is not quite the feminist manifesto is quite telling.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9623 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274

 - Posted      Profile for Kwesi   Email Kwesi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Gramps
quote:
n other words, the story is about a rape, not consensual sex between two adults.

This is not a story about rape or consenting sex, IMO. It is not principally about the treatment of Bathsheba but the treatment of Uriah. As has been pointed out, the behaviour of Bathsheba is not censured. Indeed, Nathan sees her as an innocent "little ewe lamb'.
Posts: 1419 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Exactly. Not only does she not have agency or free will, nobody expects her to, not even she herself. (Recall that it is she who engineers Solomon's succession. There is no notion that she could pick up the ball herself and run with it.) Not even God (through his prophet) expected her to have anything to say about it one way or another. Swapping out a dumb animal for a grown woman in the metaphor made perfect sense to everybody.

It is not the better conditions for women now that we can congratulate ourselves for. God knows we have a long row to hoe on this one. But the mere awareness has to come first, and we at least dimly now have that, some of us, for some of us. Before you can do it, you have to be able to imagine it, and now we have. Go, us!

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4709 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Exactly. Not only does she not have agency or free will, nobody expects her to, not even she herself. (Recall that it is she who engineers Solomon's succession. There is no notion that she could pick up the ball herself and run with it.) Not even God (through his prophet) expected her to have anything to say about it one way or another. Swapping out a dumb animal for a grown woman in the metaphor made perfect sense to everybody.

It is not the better conditions for women now that we can congratulate ourselves for. God knows we have a long row to hoe on this one. But the mere awareness has to come first, and we at least dimly now have that, some of us, for some of us. Before you can do it, you have to be able to imagine it, and now we have. Go, us!

Er--she's not of the royal house, so the best she can expect legally is to put her son on the throne. She does an admirable job of politicking and it works.

I don't think we need to fault Nathan for em-parablizing her as a "dumb animal." If he had started off telling a story about two men and a woman, even David would have smelt a rat. To get under his radar, it needed to be a parable, and it needed to be something that could conceivably happen and contravene Israel's laws, thus requiring a judgment from the king.

As for her having anything to say--well, I doubt the king's wives were hanging around the judgment hall very often, and particularly not Bathsheba, with a newborn. I suppose Nathan could have called her in--but to what purpose? IMHO Nathan is concerned primarily with neither Uriah nor Bathsheba, both of whose situations are past mending. He is concerned with David the sinner and criminal here.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19634 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

 - Posted      Profile for Mamacita   Email Mamacita   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
It's worth having a look at Nathan's whole parable of the ewe lamb (and I agree with Lamb Chopped, Nathan needed to do this via a parable, and a masterful one it is).

I find it interesting that when Nathan pronounces God's judgment on David, he says that punishment will come in the form of the child dying (which it did) and also by having his wives taken:
quote:
Thus says the Lord: I will raise up trouble against you from within your own house; and I will take your wives before your eyes, and give them to your neighbour, and he shall lie with your wives in the sight of this very sun. [vv. 11-12]
So, a death for a death, and also an adultery for an adultery.
Posts: 20645 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
# 182

 - Posted      Profile for Robert Armin     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
BC:
quote:
Charlotte Bronte's curate husband sincerely adored her. But she married him, not for love (at the outset) but because she had to marry her father's curate and no other man would do.
Errr, this is a tangent but do you have any evidence to suggest that Charlotte did not love Arthur, or that she "had" to marry him? Her father vehemently opposed the match, and she had to stick to her guns to get married at all. And even then her father refused to attend the service - he changed his mind on the morning of the wedding.

--------------------
Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

Posts: 8859 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There's a great fat biography, THE BRONTES, by Juliet somebody (I am not at home where I could look at the book) which she wrote after perusing all their letters. Charlotte was on the fence about marrying Nichols and mentions it in letters to friends. But because he was the curate she could, by marrying him, ensure that her father could die in his post. Nichols would do most (or all) of the work and the two of them could live at Haworth and take care of Patrick in his declining years. And as a matter of fact she made a superb choice. She grew to love him. And even after she died, 9 months after the wedding, he continued to live in the parsonage and take care of Patrick until the old man finally did die.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4709 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Really I doubt any choice is ever entirely free. There are always constraints of some sort, even if no human being actively worked to put them there. That's just what it means to live in a real environment with definite properties. Add in other people also trying to live, and you'll get ... constraint.

Most of the time it's innocent IMHO--just more of the real world that free will gets to work on. In Bathsheba's case, that world involved an older husband who was away at work a lot (innocent) and who had a predatory commander-in-chief (not). That sucks. She did the best she could with it, and IMHO Nathan respected that. David, too, after his repentance seems to have manned up (oops) decent-humaned-up and tried to atone for what he did to her. A lot of kings would have swept her away to some dark corner of the harem and never seen her again.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19634 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't think it is warranted from the text to say that David raped Bathsheba. Certainly the word used for lying with her has no such connotation - though it is very often used for sex. Rape or not rape is as others have said a hard question to answer here.

It is interesting, however, that apart from an initial identification she is not named in the story at all, until after the baby has died and David consoles her and lies with her (same word again as at the beginning of the story). The effect, ISTM, is to emphasise her powerlessness, and to take any sense of agency from her. She is very much someone who is done to rather than an actor. It may not have been rape, but the story makes clear where the power lies.

Posts: 3164 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058

 - Posted      Profile for Net Spinster   Email Net Spinster   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Later on she does have power in ensuring her surviving son becomes king and she becomes the king's mother (which seems to have been an official role with real power). One could easily spin a lot of the later events as her taking a slow revenge on David's family other than her own son.

--------------------
spinner of webs

Posts: 1067 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I am absolutely certain there have been novels. The scenario clearly cries out for treatment in fiction. You can imagine the several different approaches. The feminist empowerment novel, in which the raped teen gradually secures political power and then revenges herself. The romance, in which the child-bride is Awakened by the handsome older monarch and much hot sex ensues. The Christian inspirational novel, in which after sin (the prophet gets a big role in this one) there is expiation and then forgiveness and reward. These books must be out there, or someone could write them.
(But it ain't me, babe.)

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4709 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I am absolutely certain there have been novels.

There is The Secret Chord by Geraldine Brooks. It's narrated by Natan (Nathan) and is about David, but Batsheva (Bathsheba) is certainly a significant character.

I found it a good read.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2286 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

 - Posted      Profile for Hedgehog   Email Hedgehog   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
I am absolutely certain there have been novels. The scenario clearly cries out for treatment in fiction.

Not to mention the 1951 movie with Gregory Peck & Susan Hayward (imaginatively called David and Bathsheba--how DO they come up with these titles?). And, of course, the life of David has been done several times in the movies and, naturally, that would include the story.

--------------------
"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

Posts: 2509 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274

 - Posted      Profile for Kwesi   Email Kwesi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Mamacita
quote:
I find it interesting that when Nathan pronounces God's judgment on David, he says that punishment will come in the form of the child dying (which it did) and also by having his wives taken:

in other words the moral framework of this story is one very different from what we would regard as just and fair today, though the notion that earthly rulers, however powerful, are answerable to a higher authority, has a universal dimension.
Posts: 1419 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
BroJames
Shipmate
# 9636

 - Posted      Profile for BroJames   Email BroJames   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Torgny Lindgren's Bathsheba focusses on her as the main protagonist. There's a 'blurby' 1989 review of the English translation from Publisher's Weekly. The Bathsheba story, and David's reaction to the death of the child is also a major theme of Joseph Heller's God knows which has a very different flavour.
Posts: 3164 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Actually you know what it would be great as: opera. Lots of costumes, big sets, Nathan sung by the bass while David is the tenor, naturally Bathsheba is the soprano.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4709 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274

 - Posted      Profile for Kwesi   Email Kwesi   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
....of course, its only over when the 'fat lady sings', and I seem to recall that Rembrandt's Bathsheba was somewhat comely.
Posts: 1419 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Nick Tamen

Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164

 - Posted      Profile for Nick Tamen     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There are at least two operas/oratorios named "David and Bathsheba"—one by David Thompson and one by Ståle Kleiberg.

I'm thinking soap opera.

--------------------
The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

Posts: 2286 | From: On heaven-crammed earth | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

 - Posted      Profile for Mamacita   Email Mamacita   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My first serious study of the David saga took place during the whole Bill Clinton drama, and I found the parallels stunning ... the unlikely yet promising young ruler, born into near-poverty, whose appetites are almost his undoing.

As for Bathsheba, I had somehow picked up the notion that she was a temptress (which I guess is out there in popular culture somewhere), but having a closer understanding of the story, that bias irritates the bejeezus out of me... similar to the Mary Magdalene/prostitute thing.

Posts: 20645 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There are two parts of the story that does not ring true for me, but I am open to an explanation. The first has to do with where Bathsheba is performing the rite. Seems to me the rite would have been done in a special pool set aside for that purpose. It is my understanding archeological digs have determined the pool would have been more of a community pool. It seems Bethsheba's pool was a private bath.

The second part is when she would have cleansed herself. Again, it is my understanding that it would have been done seven days from when the menstruation began which would mean the rite would have happened before ovulation. However, I see other information that says it could have been 12 days from when menstruation began. Now that would have been about right for ovulation.

I would love to have this explained.

Posts: 1837 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There is nothing in the text to indicate that this was a full-scale mikvah bath of the sort familiar from a thousand years later. She is simply taking a bath. There's also the fact that we don't really know what the parameters were on post-menstrual baths in David's day--we know what tradition turned into later, but Moses' law doesn't specify half the stuff that turns up later.

The stuff about menstruation and irregular periods is in Leviticus 15:

quote:
19 “When a woman has a discharge, and the discharge in her body is blood, she shall be in her menstrual impurity for seven days, and whoever touches her shall be unclean until the evening. ... 25 “If a woman has a discharge of blood for many days, not at the time of her menstrual impurity, or if she has a discharge beyond the time of her impurity, all the days of the discharge she shall continue in uncleanness. As in the days of her impurity, she shall be unclean. ... 28 But if she is cleansed of her discharge, she shall count for herself seven days, and after that she shall be clean.
I've snipped the passage to focus on timing issues. This appears to say (though one could argue with it) that the seven-day uncleanness period begins when the bleeding stops (see v. 28). The average woman's period is about seven days. So a period plus seven more days would result in a) a very sexually frustrated husband and b) a date basically right on the nose for ovulation. No wonder God promised the people of Israel major population growth.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19634 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378

 - Posted      Profile for Gramps49   Email Gramps49   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
LC

Look at verse 4 (Now she was purifying herself from her monthly uncleanness.)

Posts: 1837 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes. It does not say this was a mikvah bath of the style popular hundreds of years later. Moses commands taking a bath, pure and simple. Nothing about "living" water, nothing about having one's hair unbound or jewelry off or ... etc. etc. The fancifications that got added on to that basic bath were not there from the beginning, and we should not assume they existed (particularly in the full-blown form) at the time of David.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19634 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What interests me more is that she was bathing on the roof. Hauling enough water up to that level cannot have been a small task. I deduce it was the only place she had some possibility of privacy. (Was there not a similar incident in the Susannah and the elders story?)

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4709 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I wonder how well-off Bathsheba and Uriah were? I ask because, if they were "well-heeled", they would have had slaves or servants to take the water up to the roof.

It might, one presumes, not have been more than a couple of storeys up; and I doubt if she bathed in a huge infinity pool!

Posts: 8627 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Lyda*Rose

Ship's broken porthole
# 4544

 - Posted      Profile for Lyda*Rose   Email Lyda*Rose   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What interests me more is that she was bathing on the roof. Hauling enough water up to that level cannot have been a small task. I deduce it was the only place she had some possibility of privacy. (Was there not a similar incident in the Susannah and the elders story?)

Maybe there was a special container for bathing in collected rain water. That doesn't seem likely in present day Israel, but this was over two thousand years ago. Maybe it was wetter then and such a thing would be practical.

--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

Posts: 21148 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Nicolemr
Shipmate
# 28

 - Posted      Profile for Nicolemr   Author's homepage   Email Nicolemr   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The account actually does not say she was on the roof, if you read it, just that David saw her from his roof. I assumed it meant that he got a good angle of vision into her private chamber through a window. Also remember that buildings were not very many stories tall then.

--------------------
On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11518 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
They did collect rain water. Plus, it's easy (well, possible [Razz] ) to bathe out of a large bucket using a cloth. You don't have to immerse yourself! You can also pour it over your head. Or sit in it, if you have a container large enough.

Any of this would work, and would be most easily undertaken on the rooftop of the average house (away from the edge and its high visibility) or if you had one, in an enclosed courtyard. You sure don't want to do it inside given ancient floors and wall material. Nor would you be likely to have much room or privacy for such maneuvers, given the number of people who lived on top of one another in ancient homes.

I rather doubt Bathsheba was expecting a voyeur on the roof of the palace. I suspect she thought she had arranged for privacy quite well and was surprised to realize she had missed something.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19634 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411

 - Posted      Profile for Jay-Emm     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
On a similar note.

There's just a lot of me that wonders if the lack of consent relating to Dinah and Sechem (Judges 34) was him not getting the consent of Judah and co... (and a bit that wonders more cynically what Dinah's feelings actually were*)

Whichever way round the patriarchy doesn't exactly come off well, and it doesn't make much long term difference.

* which are never mentioned. Though the ESV has 'seized' in the first verse, before the 'tender words', so would need some (rather easily explainable) assumption of bias and an unreliable narrative (or stockholm syndrome).

Posts: 1555 | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
Mamacita

Lakefront liberal
# 3659

 - Posted      Profile for Mamacita   Email Mamacita   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jay-Emm:
On a similar note.

There's just a lot of me that wonders if the lack of consent relating to Dinah and Sechem (Judges 34) was him not getting the consent of Judah and co... (and a bit that wonders more cynically what Dinah's feelings actually were*)

Whichever way round the patriarchy doesn't exactly come off well, and it doesn't make much long term difference.

* which are never mentioned. Though the ESV has 'seized' in the first verse, before the 'tender words', so would need some (rather easily explainable) assumption of bias and an unreliable narrative (or stockholm syndrome).

Here is a link to the Dinah story Genesis 34:1-31
Posts: 20645 | From: where the purple line ends | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Note the brothers' justification: Shall our sister be treated as a whore? Not, you hurt our sister. It is not her feelings or autonomy that is important to them. It is her sexual purity which, once clouded, affects their own status.
Nor does the text go into Dinah's feelings in the matter in any way. If she were a calf or a dog, it would be much the same.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4709 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

 - Posted      Profile for Lamb Chopped   Email Lamb Chopped   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The writer of Genesis doesn't go into feelings etc. much at all, as I recall. He lets us draw our own conclusions, and any judgment is apt to be subtle (as when Jacob is dying and gives Simeon and Levi the boot in terms of the succession, basically on account of this episode.)

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19634 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

 - Posted      Profile for mark_in_manchester   Email mark_in_manchester   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I never know what to make of this kind of history. I know it's old - really, really, old. When the world was this rough all over, as it seems to have remained much later in the times of the early church, it's easier than it is now to see the attraction of withdrawing to sit on a pole in the desert.

And to be honest, there's plenty of days it seems like a good idea now.

[ 21. June 2017, 11:26: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]

--------------------
"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

Posts: 1419 | Registered: Oct 2010  |  IP: Logged


 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools