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Source: (consider it) Thread: Apocalyptic literature
Gamaliel
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# 812

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How can it be literal when it's a dream or vision?

The whole point about dreams and visions is that they aren't 'literal' but act like visual metaphors.

That's the whole point of them.

It'd be like saying that 'My loves is like a red, red rose' means that the author's beloved is some kind of garden plant ...

Sin, evil etc causes all kinds of pain, emotional, psychological, physical ...

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
How can it be literal when it's a dream or vision?

The whole point about dreams and visions is that they aren't 'literal' but act like visual metaphors.

That's the whole point of them.

It'd be like saying that 'My loves is like a red, red rose' means that the author's beloved is some kind of garden plant ...

Sin, evil etc causes all kinds of pain, emotional, psychological, physical ...

John saw something ..he literally did! Seems to me you are being a bit literal here in your definition of literal. Realities come in other forms than the physical.
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Gamaliel
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Of course.

But literally seeing something and seeing something literally are quite differeny things ...

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Of course.

But literally seeing something and seeing something literally are quite differeny things ...

Sounds like progress.
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Gamaliel
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Ha ha ...

Progress on whose side?

Yours or mine?

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
You could argue that it shows that people still continue to 'follow evil' despite the harm it causes.

The "Satan waging war on his own followers" phrase I lifted straight from the ESV Study Bible, but it didn't seem to ring true. Especially as this was the 6th trumpet, and the 7th trumpet announces [cue orchestral introduction and Baroque choir] The kingdom of this world is become the kingdom of our God and of his Christ, and He shall live for ever and ever. [I am now responsible for your Hallelujah Chorus earworm].

The Judgement of Christ just fits better IMO.

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balaam

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Seeing that the inspiration of Apocalyptic literature is seen by the Jews as less direct than prophesy, and in line with the poetry of Job, Psalms or Proverbs, I will try to sum up my position in a poem. I choose Haiku.

Apocalyptic:
No matter how bad things seem
judgement comes. God wins.

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Freddy
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quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Apocalyptic:
No matter how bad things seem
judgement comes. God wins.

Sums it up perfectly. [Overused]

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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg

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Gamaliel
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Well yes, and I think it's been observed on these threads that the Jews classify Daniel among the 'Writings' rather than among 'The Prophets'.

I wouldn't make too fine a distinction between prophetic and apocalyptic writings/genres, but I think the Jewish categorisation is instructive.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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Also, I'd have thought the whole 'point' of biblical prophecy and NT apocalyptic is to act as a, 'revelation of Jesus Christ', as the Book of Revelation puts it.

Whatever else it might be there for, the prime reason is to tell us something about the Lord Jesus Christ.

Trying to concoct some kind of blue-print for the Eschaton based on snippets and passages in the scriptures - both the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament - strikes me as being of a way, way, way, way lower order of priority.

It descends into the realm of pure speculation however much certain kinds of highly-literal Millenialists and Dispensationalists go in for their elaborate and self-referring hermeneutics.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
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http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Martin60
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Aye, their prime reason. Men who lived two to two and a half thousand years ago. But God's? May be. To us? May be. I always liked Ezekiel's style, 'Now it came to pass in the thirtieth year, in the fourth month, in the fifth day of the month, as I was among the captives by the river of Chebar, that the heavens were opened, and I saw visions of God'. I can see that happening to John of Patmos too, down on the beach. Wonderful, strange, harmless, encouraging stuff of its time and all times I'm sure.

[ 05. January 2018, 16:31: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It descends into the realm of pure speculation however much certain kinds of highly-literal Millenialists and Dispensationalists go in for their elaborate and self-referring hermeneutics.

While I fully agree with this I find the opposite speculation, the Pretorist everything has already happened approach even less helpful.

Scripture often has more than one meaning, but for the primary purpose of this style I look at what the persecuted Church is saying. Anything else is secondary.

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Gamaliel
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Well yes, the persecuted believers will relate to these texts in an analogous way to how the first readers would - as something that 'speaks to their condition' to use a Quaker phrase.

It's the rest of us who have the luxury of armchair speculation.

That said, the reality, of course is that whatever persecuted believers are going through they'll respond using the resources of their own tradition. If they are Catholics they'll respond in a more Catholic flavoured way, Orthodox in an Orthodox way, if evangelical Protestants in an evangelical Protestant way.

So if they are into the kind of pre-millenialist and Dispensationalist schemas that Jamat favours, then they'll apply those.

If not, they won't.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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balaam

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
So if they are into the kind of pre-millenialist and Dispensationalist schemas that Jamat favours, then they'll apply those.

If not, they won't.

I don't see much evidence of them doing that. Others are saying that supposedly on their behalf though.

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Gamaliel
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Perhaps. My point was that if you were some kind of fundagelical given to end-time speculation and lived somewhere where Christians were routinely persecuted, then you reaction would presumably draw on that.

As it happens, Christians of all stripes routinely face persecution in various parts of the world, so no, we aren't getting a chorus of end-time speculation from them because they aren't all given to it.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Martin60
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What you do get here, in low Anglicanism, is the near orgasmic thrill of martyrdom by proxy.

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Love wins

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Gamaliel
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Hah!

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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RdrEmCofE
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quote:
Previously stated on thread
The Hebrew understanding had relatively little to do with foretelling future events and much more to do with conveying the divine message to people now. The prophet was the spokesperson of God. In traditional Jewish understanding, Torah and the Writings were also written by prophets, such as Moses, David and Solomon. What distinguishes the books classified as Prophets is a focus on calling Israel to faithfulness, on challenging Israel's unfaithfulness, and on describing what God intends for Israel.

This is a good working rule to have in mind whenever reading the apocalyptic genre. Jesus is presented in NT scripture as THE Prophet that Moses predicted, (according to scripture), and the one that Moses had instructed future Israelites to 'listen to'. Deut. 18:15.

Moses's advice then gets interpreted as the prophetic statement of a seer.

quote:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you. And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people. Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days. Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed. Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. Acts 3:19-26
There is nothing in the original statement by Moses to indicate that he had definite foreknowledge that his words would be taken by Peter to refer to Jesus Christ as The expected Prophet. Moses merely wanted to lay out exactly how the people he was adressing should recognise a person claiming to be speaking with a voice of authority regarding how they should behave in God's sight.

But it certainly came to pass that Moses's words turned out to be a prediction.

So the principle seems clear that prophesy has two distinct elements. The original meaning understood by the originator of the prophesy, (i.e. the teaching), and the subsequent interpretation in hindsight placed upon it. Both are now in scripture and both are supposedly equally 'inspired'.

Another important point is that the Moses 'prophesy' in this case is not a 'prediction' at all. It is a set of rules whereby they may recognise and ignore false leadership or recognise and obey legitimate authority. It is definitely not the prediction of a seer regarding a messianic figure in future time.

However, very little indeed of what Jesus Christ taught and has been recorded, is in fact apocalyptic. The vast majority of his words were about human conduct in the present, here and now. The main objective in his teaching was to establish the Kingdom of God 'on earth'. It was his first objective stated in the Lord's prayer, and enjoined on his disciples, after stating God's credentials and recognising God's authority. "They Kingdom come, They will be done."

So even though Peter presented Christ as THE PROPHET predicted by Moses, Christ in fact was primarily a legislator for the New Order of Conduct for God's people, rather than a seer and predictor of the future per se.

quote:
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began
It is clear that the present conduct of believers and their eschatological hopes of the future are inseparable but that is what fundyjelicals are inclined to do, separate them, majoring on the supposed predictive future element, (Luv our SUV's and Bring on Armageddon), to the detriment of the practical application of Christian ethics to the current situation. (Love your neighbour, e.g. in Islands threatened by GW inundation, as your Good ol boy American self).

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Love covers many sins. 1 Pet.4:8. God was in Christ, reconciling the world to himself, not holding their sins against them; 2 Cor.5:19

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Martin60
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Very good.

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged



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