homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Heaven   » Extinct Sect love (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Extinct Sect love
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Spending over a year being ill, having surgery, and then slowly recovering leaves me with lots of time on my hands!

But I've always been fascinated by the sheer variety of expressions of Christian (or sub-Christian) faith, and have gained pleasure and knowledge from recent studies.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7091 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I know a woman who grew up in a church which no longer exists called The Free Breakfast Mission.
Posts: 2882 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
That's an interesting one.

I picture a small, modest, simple chapel, not only dispensing free breakfasts (hopefully with bacon...), but also doing a little gentle evangelising at the same time - maybe just by giving food to the hungry...

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7091 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Do you think they split on questions like whether only porridge could be eaten, or cereal as well, whether to drink tea, coffee or orange juice, and whether just croissants was more virtuous or less than consuming a full English?


As far as I know, the Skoptsy are now extinct. Since one of their practices was castration as the only really effective way to control lust, this may not be surprising.

A more moderate group I rather like, although I don't think they qualify as I don't think they are extinct, is a Scottish communion even wee-er and free-er than the others, which a friend discovered actually shuts down its website on the Lord's Day lest people be tempted to visit it.

I agree with Brenda that there is something particularly fascinating about the Agapemonites. For me, I suspect it is their particular combination of high-minded earnestness with (one suspects) a strong seasoning of charlatanism. It's also the thought of the promised land being located in Spaxton of all places, a pleasant enough but not particularly remarkable village near Bridgewater. I mean, come off it. I'ver been there.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 6876 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Do you think they split on questions like whether only porridge could be eaten, or cereal as well, whether to drink tea, coffee or orange juice, and whether just croissants was more virtuous or less than consuming a full English?

On the grounds of scriptural precedent it should have been freshly caught fish with bread.
Posts: 2882 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And missions must've been difficult. What to do, in Asian nations where breakfast is rice congee? in America, where bagels or yogurt are the rule?

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4236 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
When we worked in Indin India we used to have iddlies and sambar for breakfast.
Posts: 2882 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Well, it is certainly amazing what one canlearn on this forum!!

And how one's despondent spirits [tough day!] can be lifted by reading of various sects and their beliefs. I'm tempted to become a professor such as Huia mentioned and spend my days reading of them.
[Smile]

Posts: 6999 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Its another area that I'd like to read more about (I'm not even sure how organised their beliefs were) but Ranters and Diggers were quite fascinating movements.

I kinda get the impression that what we know of them is more to do with condemnations by other famous religious people who tended to have their utterances recorded than directly from them.

Also the Brotherhood Church movement after Tolstoy. I think the latter exists in a post-religious form.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 7731 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
I think I mentioned earlier the followers of Joanna Southcott, and their successors 'The New and Latter House of Israel'. I now find that Joanna Southcott's famous 'Box' gave rise to what became 'The Panacea Society', at a slightly later period, but that this ceased to be a religious body in 2012.

I've always thought the House of Bishops are a bunch of miserable spoilsports for not fulfilling the conditions that would allow the Box to be opened ...

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 6828 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322

 - Posted      Profile for Enoch   Email Enoch   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
On the grounds of scriptural precedent it should have been freshly caught fish with bread.

Well said. There's someone who knows their Bible.

Indeed, wouldn't that make kippers particularly iniquitous, worse than, say, a boiled egg?


Ricardus does the Panacea Society still exist or has it been dissolved? If it continues but ceased to be a religious body in 2012, does that taint it with a curious sort of apostasy - 'well we used to believe in Joanna Southcott. Now we've decided we don't, but we still want to be able to use the trust fund'?

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

Posts: 6876 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:


Ricardus does the Panacea Society still exist or has it been dissolved? If it continues but ceased to be a religious body in 2012, does that taint it with a curious sort of apostasy - 'well we used to believe in Joanna Southcott. Now we've decided we don't, but we still want to be able to use the trust fund'?

Preserving the history and artifacts is a worthwhile thing, no?

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 7731 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And something has to be done with the money; you can't just drop it into a dark corner and forget it. The same with the Agapemones and their real estate holdings.
I am perusing Abode of Love by Kate Barlow with great benefit -- this is the tell-all memoir of the granddaughter of the Agapemone founder. She is as you might expect conversant with many a vaguely-Christian cult, and mentions one new to me: the Christadelphians. Not Trinitarian, dear me. There seems to have been a good deal of infection back and forth across the Atlantic, of creative religion.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4236 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh, the Chrisadelphians are very much alive in the UK. Most towns have at least one Christadelphian group.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 7731 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Ranters and Diggers (or Levellers) appear to have been early Nonconformist bodies, springing up around the time of the Commonwealth, but now extinct as separate religious groups.

The term 'Ranters' was, however, applied rather pejoratively to some other emerging denominations, such as the Primitive Methodists, in the 19thC, referring to their sometimes noisy and excitable (or exciting?) style of preaching.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7091 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
# 944

 - Posted      Profile for Ian Climacus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh, the Chrisadelphians are very much alive in the UK. Most towns have at least one Christadelphian group.

They're involved in Aged Care facilities around various states here, though I don't recall seeing a church for a while -- they must be out there. Interesting how wide-spread they are in the UK.

I thought I'd take a look but their website has no church details.

Posts: 6999 | From: Albury, Australia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Oh, the Chrisadelphians are very much alive in the UK. Most towns have at least one Christadelphian group.

Yeah, my point was the religious places along the road mentioned did not include a Ressurection Hall not that the Christadelphians are an extinct sect.

Jengie

[ 03. March 2017, 19:28: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Walking 18 miles to help Refugees get an education.

Posts: 20322 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
keibat
Apprentice
# 5287

 - Posted      Profile for keibat   Email keibat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Bishop's Finger commented:
quote:
The term 'Ranters' was, however, applied rather pejoratively to some other emerging denominations, such as the Primitive Methodists, in the 19thC, referring to their sometimes noisy and excitable (or exciting?) style of preaching.

In our local market town in Lincolnshire there is a little sidestreet called Ranters Row, after the Methodist conventicle that used to be there – Prims, I think; certainly not Wesleyans.

--------------------
keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim

Posts: 26 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
keibat
Apprentice
# 5287

 - Posted      Profile for keibat   Email keibat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
mr cheesy suggested that the Primitive Methodists' heartland was in South Wales, to which betjemaniac responded:

quote:
The Primitives were influential in S Wales yes, but their heartland was between the Trent, Dove and Churnet rivers. Chapel for the agricultural poor really.
My grandparents, on both sides, were Prims, in East Hull. Very urban indeed; Respectable Working Class, with some overflow into the clerical occupations.
Gave my parents, both of them, a lasting aversion to Evangelical versions of the Church.
But I agree that the whole of the East coast strip from the North York Moors down through Lincs is full of small Methodist chapels, of various subpersuasions, now closed.

--------------------
keibat from the finnish north and the lincs east rim

Posts: 26 | From: Alford, Lincs + Turku, Finland | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
A lot of small Methodist chapels have indeed closed, alas, but some of them at least went quite a while ago when the various Methodist sub-sects reunited. Isn't that what happened to the Prims? In which case, they're not extinct as such...

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7091 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967

 - Posted      Profile for SvitlanaV2   Email SvitlanaV2   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Mergers can be problematic for the minor party, and I understand that this was true for the Prims. They probably lost most of their chapels, and were expected to be adaptable and join the Wesleyans rather than the other way round.

I've heard that it took a while for some merged congregations to take on a new, united identity, but it's almost inevitable that when this did happen there was very little that was identifiably Prim that was left. So it's hard to argue that in the long term the Prims continued to exist as a distinct group, except in terms of cultural memory.

Posts: 5918 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I think you're probably right about the residual cultural memory, given that the main Methodist mergers were about 70-80 years ago...

Ironically, in this area, a former Primitive Methodist Chapel survives - as a Christian Spiritualist Church - whilst a quite prominent Wesleyan Church, not far away, has completely disappeared, and been replaced by a block of flats..

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7091 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
There were two large primitive chapels within a mile of here. One became derelict and was pulled down, one is now a junk shop. To Wesleyan chapels survive - one now taken over by another church, another the remaining Methodist church.

They were all barn-sized, probably could hold 300+ each.

I'm not claiming that South Wales was the "centre" of the primitives, but evidence from this valley suggests it was a major force at one time.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 7731 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

 - Posted      Profile for Sober Preacher's Kid   Email Sober Preacher's Kid   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
'round here the Methodist Merger was in 1885.

I don't know of any Primitive Methodist shacks, but one was a former Bible Christian joint, the fourth brother in the merger.

--------------------
NDP Federal Convention, Edmonton 2016: More Trots than the Calgary Stampede!

Posts: 7602 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Does it count that the headquarters of the New Connexion (I think*) were once across the street from where I now live? To give you some idea it merged in 1907 with Bible Christian Church and United Free Methodist to form the United Methodist which was the third branch to come into the Methodist in 1932.

Jengie

*I know it was the headquarters of one small Methodist Sect and the only one I can find that is reported as having its headquarters in the area is New Connexion.

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Walking 18 miles to help Refugees get an education.

Posts: 20322 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430

 - Posted      Profile for Bishops Finger   Email Bishops Finger   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I guess it does count - there can't be many left from the 1907 merger! The cultural memories of the New Connexion would have lasted longer, of course.

IJ

--------------------
The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

Posts: 7091 | From: With The Glums At The Bus Stop | Registered: Jan 2004  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061

 - Posted      Profile for Brenda Clough   Author's homepage   Email Brenda Clough   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What makes a bunch of people a sect, rather than a subdivision or branch of some denomination? Can it be just the differences in preaching/hymns/worship? Surely a hellfire preacher would be a subdivision or something of Protestantism.

I think it wanders off into being a sect when they vary in doctrine. If you're not Trinitarian, you're parting company with main line Christianity, yes? And clearly the more whacko beliefs, the free love or "I am Jesus returned to earth" stuff, are not going to be accepted by the Archbishop of Canterbury.

--------------------
Science fiction and fantasy writer

Posts: 4236 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't think there is much difference between a sect and a denomination, rather they're a spectrum.

First people are in one church, there is some kind of split over something resulting in one or more sect which might eventually formulate themselves officially as a denomination which in time might even turn into something identifiable as a separate religion.

There are Christian sects, there are non-Trinitarian Christian sects, there are sects which are post-Christian.

--------------------
my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

Posts: 7731 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

 - Posted      Profile for Jengie jon   Author's homepage   Email Jengie jon   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Well, there is a wide discussion on the nature of Sects in sociology. It is normally compared with Church rather than denomination. Denomination basically means that the group has a name.

Jengie

[ 06. March 2017, 16:16: Message edited by: Jengie jon ]

--------------------
"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Walking 18 miles to help Refugees get an education.

Posts: 20322 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Al Eluia

Inquisitor
# 864

 - Posted      Profile for Al Eluia   Email Al Eluia   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My sense of the difference (and I am by no means a sociologist) is social acceptability. Cults have very little and are the most fringy. Sects are a bit more acceptable/mainstream and denominations are a lot more. And of course there are other differences, such as how open to or shut off from the outside world they are.

[ 06. March 2017, 16:20: Message edited by: Al Eluia ]

--------------------
An omer is a tenth of an ephah. (Exodus 16:36)

Posts: 1101 | From: Seattle | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Niminypiminy
Shipmate
# 15489

 - Posted      Profile for Niminypiminy   Email Niminypiminy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Not at all extinct, but with such an alluring name that I can't resist including:

The Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion

I suspect it of being the original of the church that sends the hero on his American enterprise in Francis Spufford's Golden Hill.

--------------------
Lives of the Saints: songs by The Unequal Struggle
http://www.theunequalstruggle.com/

Posts: 775 | From: Edge of the Fens | Registered: Feb 2010  |  IP: Logged
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128

 - Posted      Profile for Baptist Trainfan   Email Baptist Trainfan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Certainly Spufford makes the allusion. But the book is set about 40 years before the Connexion was founded.
Posts: 8419 | From: East of Greenwich | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175

 - Posted      Profile for Pomona   Email Pomona   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I have both a former Primitive Methodist building (now replaced by a post-merger Methodist church next door, I think it is a private home now) and a Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion chapel (still going) near me - I'm on the North Hampshire/West Berkshire border. This is Nonconformist country - opposite the former Primitive Methodists is a URC church that was a fairly early Congregationalist church before their merger, a former barn building with a Nonconformist churchyard. Nearby Basingstoke has many Quaker graves, all flat to the ground to symbolise equality. Quite a few Gospel Halls, the nearest near me was a terraced cottage converted into one which has been converted back into a normal house and sold. I think it may have been one of the Calvinist Baptist offshoots which use Gospel Halls for worship rather than Brethren, but not sure. I think I have seen both kinds of Gospel Halls in Northampton too.

Funnily enough in Sussex where I used to live there was also a Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion chapel, and a Strict Baptist chapel which seemed to have a relatively healthy congregation - always lots of hats on the women.

--------------------
Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

Posts: 5180 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012  |  IP: Logged
Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927

 - Posted      Profile for Lothlorien   Email Lothlorien   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Pomona:

Funnily enough in Sussex where I used to live there was also a Countess of Huntingdon's Connexion chapel, and a Strict Baptist chapel which seemed to have a relatively healthy congregation - always lots of hats on the women.

That must have been hard to balance.

I'll collect my hat and coat on the way out.

--------------------
Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.

Posts: 8718 | From: girt by sea | Registered: Aug 2003  |  IP: Logged
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768

 - Posted      Profile for Penny S     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I used to know someone who grew up in the PPs, and was very grateful as soon as he was old enough to be able to switch to the boring old Baptists.

David Bebbington, in IVP's A History Of Evangelicalism series, cites the Cokelers, or Society of Dependants, who believed in celibacy (hence their disappearance) and economic solidarity.

One of their hymns ran:

Christ's combination stores for me
Where I can be so well supplied
Where I can one with brethren be
Where competition is defied.

I seem to recall running across the Cokelers in the Dictionary of Sussex Dialect - they abjured intoxication from alcohol, tea or coffee, and were unaware of the theo-compounds in cocoa, so drank that.
Posts: 5370 | Registered: May 2009  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools