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Source: (consider it) Thread: potätö_potahtö
Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755

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My son informs me that every now and then a phrase comes out of his mouth that makes people question, "But I thought you were a native of California?" to which he replies, " Yes, but my southern mother taught me to speak". [Smile]

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Notice to police, Should my body ever be found on a jogging trail, know that I was murdered elsewhere and my body dumped there."

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I persist in believing that on this (eastern) side of the Pond you live, or a shop is to be found, in, rather than on , the High Street.

A bit like standing in line vs. standing on line, the latter being heard almost exclusively in New York City.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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The verb to flat as used in New Zealand

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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I'm fascinated, too, that in recent years what I think is the English (i.e. UK) "it's down to ... " has come to replace the "It's up to ... " that I'm used to. I first heard "It's down to ..." on The Bill, and it may of course be regional in Britain, too ...

And as for the US "I heard Friday" or "Trump said Tuesday" ... [Disappointed]

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
The verb to flat as used in New Zealand

And also here, at least in Sydney. Often goes with "with".

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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quote:
Originally posted by Graven Image:
My son informs me that every now and then a phrase comes out of his mouth that makes people question, "But I thought you were a native of California?" to which he replies, " Yes, but my southern mother taught me to speak". [Smile]

Heh. Every so often this CA native says "I don't care to have another, thanks," and I hear my Grandad from Tennessee once again. [Tear]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I persist in believing that on this (eastern) side of the Pond you live, or a shop is to be found, in, rather than on , the High Street.
But I think the number of people who agree with me grows smaller by the day.

If something was "in the street", you'd run into it with your car.

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I persist in believing that on this (eastern) side of the Pond you live, or a shop is to be found, in, rather than on , the High Street.
But I think the number of people who agree with me grows smaller by the day.

If something was "in the street", you'd run into it with your car.
Wouldn't the same thing happen if it were "on the street"?

Moo

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Teekeey Misha
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# 18604

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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I persist in believing that on this (eastern) side of the Pond you live, or a shop is to be found, in, rather than on , the High Street.
But I think the number of people who agree with me grows smaller by the day.

I think throughout my (lengthy) life on this eastern side of the pond, I've always used both!
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
...what I think is the English (i.e. UK) "it's down to ... " has come to replace the "It's up to ... " that I'm used to.

I'm not sure on your context; I think both terms are used in the UK but they mean different things.
"It's down to..." would mean "is/are responsible for."
"It's up to..." would mean "get(s) to make the decision."

So; "The new IT system doesn't work and that's down to Zappa. I think Zappa should be sacked as IT manager but it's up to you."

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Misha
Don't assume I don't care; sometimes I just can't be bothered to put you right.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by sharkshooter:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I persist in believing that on this (eastern) side of the Pond you live, or a shop is to be found, in, rather than on , the High Street.
But I think the number of people who agree with me grows smaller by the day.

If something was "in the street", you'd run into it with your car.
No. That's 'in the road' [Smile]
Every time I see a list of those U and non-U words, I realise how irredeemably non-U I am. I say perfume and mirror and note-paper and mantelpiece: my grandmothers were both known as nanny X/Y, I do say sitting room but 'lounge' is always threatening to slip out- actually I say 'front room' even when it isn't literally at the front but it dawned on me the other day that that's got a nice Goffmann-y sociological aptness so I'm sticking with that one. I do leave my bottom waistcoat button undone and I put the milk in after the tea (but pronounce it as often as not 'miwk'- always have trouble with ls) but apart from those I am branded with the mark of social Cain.
But heigh-ho, that's who I am. Good enough for my Mum & Dad (another non-U thing) and so I suppose good enough for me too.

[ 26. May 2017, 21:09: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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What are "U" and "non-U" words please?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What are "U" and "non-U" words please?

Read Nancy Mitford's book "U and Non-U Revisited" for a good laugh. Just remember that she and fellow contributors are not being serious.

U is English as supposedly used by proper Upper class people, Non-U by the rest of us. So looking glass instead of mirror, frock instead of dress, and many other indicia of class.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What are "U" and "non-U" words please?

Read Nancy Mitford's book "U and Non-U Revisited" for a good laugh. Just remember that she and fellow contributors are not being serious.

U is English as supposedly used by proper Upper class people, Non-U by the rest of us. So looking glass instead of mirror, frock instead of dress, and many other indicia of class.

I wonder how well such distinctions translate across the pond, and whether I'd be amused or just confused.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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quote:
I put the milk in after the tea (but pronounce it as often as not 'miwk'- always have trouble with ls)
Me too - for me it's London / Essex thing. My girls (sorry, giws) were amused when we visited Poland last summer, to find they have a letter just for that sound - it's the 'l' with a line through it. With a little care it's not hard to write things down and get a Pole sounding like Arthur Daley.

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(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Salicional:
- It's perfectly grammatical here to leave out the words 'to be' after 'needs', so you get constructions such as 'The fence needs painted' or 'The lawn needs mowed'.

I just came across an interesting sentence in a Hamish Macbeth mystery, set in Scotland.
quote:
I want rid of Christine
Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505

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I had never heard anyone say "Could you borrow me that....?" until I met my husband's English parents. Where I would say "Could you loan that....?"

"Borrow me that" was also used for passing the salt, the tissue box and often for things that were not being loaned at all, but being taken. It took me a while to get a handle on it.

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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.

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Salicional
Apprentice
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Moo, it sounds like Christine is about to have a very bad day!

Actually, given that a lot of Scots-Irish came to settle in this area in the 1800s, it wouldn't surprise me if they imported some of the syntactic quirks of their homeland as well.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
I had never heard anyone say "Could you borrow me that....?" until I met my husband's English parents. Where I would say "Could you loan that....?"

Whereas I would say "Could you lend me that (please)?"

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by Salicional:
Moo, it sounds like Christine is about to have a very bad day!

I wouldn't bat an eye at "I want rid of it", but "it needs painted" will always jar. I don't think I can either explain or justify this, though.
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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Banner Lady:
I had never heard anyone say "Could you borrow me that....?" until I met my husband's English parents. Where I would say "Could you loan that....?"

I, too, would say "Could you lend me...." I lend a loan, if you get what Pigwidgeon and I are saying.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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English person here. I have heard people use 'borrow' instead of 'lend' but it's not common here. I don't know if it's a regional thing. I just think it sounds wrong, as though people have muddled their words.

M.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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I think it may be a northern thing, I've never heard it in London.

There are also some people who swap "learn" and "teach" - i.e. "Mr. Smith learned me English when I was in Year 4". I think it's a (?working-class) London thing, and probably obsolete usage.

It was only in the 1980s that I heard people saying, "I don't need to buy any sugar, I've got some indoors" - meaning "(in storage) at home".

In Glasgow, the secretary of a church I attended many years ago would say "On Sunday first there will be a ..." - meaning "next Sunday". My wife, who comes from the same area, assures me that this was unusual; again I think it's obsolete usage.

Of course, "notices" in Scotland are often "intimations" (or, in jest, "intimidations").

[ 28. May 2017, 07:57: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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That's interesting - 'rid' is entirely normal and everyday on this side of the pond. From 'I want
rid of this cough' to 'having met Steve, she urgently needed a way of getting rid of John...'

[ 28. May 2017, 08:18: Message edited by: mark_in_manchester ]

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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The usual English usage in the UK would be "to get rid" of something, or "I want rid of this".

I heard that switching of borrow and lend when I was a child - that would be Northamptonshire. I remember the teachers correcting it regularly. "You wish to borrow x's rubber (eraser), if they agree they will lend it to you".

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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mark_in_manchester

not waving, but...
# 15978

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'Borrow' in that sense is one of those dialect words which is going out of style now the youf all talk like Ali G. It might go along with:

'...can you borrow me a couple o' quid - I need to go t'tospickle t'get another bockle o'pills.'

The 'k' for 't' thing might be very local to here - or perhaps people will correct me.

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"We are punished by our sins, not for them" - Elbert Hubbard
(so good, I wanted to see it after my posts and not only after those of shipmate JBohn from whom I stole it)

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I had a friend who went to teach ESL in Stockholm, and found that there were not separate words for the educational process. Learn (Swedish version) meant both learn and teach, so users of "I'll learn yer" were probably using an older edition of the language. I wonder if borrow and lend have a similar past.

Is the 'k' for 't' thing a variant on the glo''al stop?

[ 28. May 2017, 11:57: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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sharkshooter

Not your average shark
# 1589

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I, too, would say "Could you lend me...." ...

To which the answer might be, "Yes, I could, but I won't."

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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
There are also some people who swap "learn" and "teach" - i.e. "Mr. Smith learned me English when I was in Year 4". I think it's a (?working-class) London thing, and probably obsolete usage.

I was going to say "That'll learn ya" was an Appalachian thing, but a quick Google says it's a Northern England thing. (It's actually frustrating to Google because it's also the name of a rock band so you keep getting stuff about them.)

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Northern England would fit a Scandinavian link.
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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I had a friend who went to teach ESL in Stockholm, and found that there were not separate words for the educational process. Learn (Swedish version) meant both learn and teach, so users of "I'll learn yer" were probably using an older edition of the language.

The present-day word 'learn' has two origins and two different meanings. Learn, as in 'I will learn him' is a causative verb--I will cause him to learn. 'I will learn it' is the underlying verb which gave rise to the causative.

Sound changes in English caused the two meanings to assume the same phonetic form, and the causative usage came to be considered substandard.

Some causatives which are still distinct from the underlying verb are 'fell'--to cause to fall, 'drench'-- to cause to drink, 'lay'-- to cause to lie, 'ret' to cause to rot. (This last denotes the old process of preparing flax to be spun into linen.)

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Actually the terms U and Non-U were taken from a serious academic paper by Alan Ross, a professor of linguistics at Birmingham: Nancy Mitford was approached for comment after the article was given wider coverage than the readership of the academic journal in which it had appeared first. Of course, crashing snobs like Evelyn Waugh then climbed on the bandwagon and the whole thing got much wider coverage than it deserved.

Whether or not it is a class thing has always been a moot point since the U people of the day tended to have spent their formative years in the company of paid nannies and nurserymaids most, if not all, of whom would have been classified as definitely Non-U.

As for correct pronounciation, look no further than the Powell brothers: Jonathan pronounces his surname to rhyme with towel, Charles to rhyme with soul.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Gee D
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# 13815

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Somewhere or other, I have the book with Alan Ross's original article, Nancy Mitford's response and a couple of other essays - and from memory, a short piece of verse by Betjeman. Again, memory says that Ross's original essay appeared in an unusual academic journal, perhaps Finnish, but if not in one of the Scandinavian countries. His article was serious; none of the rest is.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Curiosity killed ...

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# 11770

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The Betjeman poem that starts:

Phone for the fish knives, Norman
As cook is a little unnerved
?

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356

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The lend/borrow, learn/teach thing. I have a vague idea that somewhere in the AV and/or 1662 BCP 'learn' is used as a synonym of 'teach', but can't remember where - am I right?
Welsh is another language where the same word (dysgu) is used for both learn and teach: and also benthyg = lend or borrow. So I too wonder whether using the words in that way is more common among English speakers from areas./ families with connections to other languages.

[ 29. May 2017, 12:53: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Lothlorien
Ship's Grandma
# 4927

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Grandson, whose 13th birthdqay was the day before he came to my place, was told not to bring his wallet with him. It was newly stuffed with birthday cash and gift vouchers. Some time after they returned home I had a frantic phone call. Was it here? Indeed it was here and I have rescued it from under spare bed. However, no plans are in place yet to return it to him in near future. An uncle used the phrase, very oldfashioned, but we all knew what he meant. He said, "That'll larn him, won't it? ". I hadn't heard it in years, and it is definitely "larn" not "learn" him down here in that phrase.

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Buy a bale. Help our Aussie rural communities and farmers. Another great cause needing support The High Country Patrol.

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Moo

Ship's tough old bird
# 107

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I am familiar with the phrase, "That'll learn ya, dern ya."

Moo

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See you later, alligator.

Posts: 19997 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The Betjeman poem that starts:

Phone for the fish knives, Norman
As cook is a little unnerved
?

Thanks, that's it. Still a good laugh.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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For a good period of time, I thought "beller" (dialect for "bellow") was a noun. In place of "The Hell you say," my maternal grandmother would say, "The Hell you beller." But I had never heard "The Hell you say," so I thought it meant something analogous to "The Hell, you fool."

This was reinforced by the fact that she called woman down the street, who was always yelling at her kids, "Old Beller" (take-off on "Old Yeller", book/movie about a yellow dog).

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62437 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Above, Powell said to rhyme with towel works, but it cannot rhyme with soul, because it is one syllable and Powell two. But soul sounds two syllable with a drawl.

There are other two syllable-one syllable pronunciations. American pronunciation of dog as daw-awg to my ears. Anne as ay-an, which weirdly is the same as Iain in my hearing by some.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10501 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Gill H

Shipmate
# 68

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Hospickle is indeed very North-Wesf, I have heard it in Preston.

As for teach/learn, it crops up in Wind in the Willows, when the friends are preparing to oust the weasels from Toad Hall. I think it's Badger who says "We'll learn 'em" and when Ratty corrects him, he replies "But we don't want to teach 'em, we want to learn 'em!"

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Above, Powell said to rhyme with towel works, but it cannot rhyme with soul, because it is one syllable and Powell two. But soul sounds two syllable with a drawl.

There are other two syllable-one syllable pronunciations. American pronunciation of dog as daw-awg to my ears. Anne as ay-an, which weirdly is the same as Iain in my hearing by some.

Anthony Powell said that his family pronunciation had it close to 1 syllable but still 2, if that makes sense.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Huia
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# 3473

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
Above, Powell said to rhyme with towel works, but it cannot rhyme with soul, because it is one syllable and Powell two. But soul sounds two syllable with a drawl.

It may be one of those words where part of it is swallowed in some way. There's a street in Wellington (NZ) that many of the locals pronounce as Majoribanks St, but most English people would call Marshbanks St.

There's also a town on the West Coast here called Greymouth which is pronounced as Greymyth by if you follow English usage, whereas it's always been Grey mouth here. (this was brought home to me when I heard a recorded book read by someone from overseas).

Huia

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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.

Posts: 9785 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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You can't judge the pronunciation of given names by the way they are spelt, not when Featherstonehaugh is pronounced Fanshawe and Cholmondeley as Chumley. Then you have names like Siobhan, Niamh and Grainne.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Then you have names like Siobhan, Niamh and Grainne.

Which are pronounced exactly as they are spelt, bearing mind they're using Irish orthographic practice. But within that orthography, they're pronounced entirely as spelt.

[ 30. May 2017, 11:29: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17310 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
kingsfold

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# 1726

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I offer you also as geographic offerings:

Wymondham pronounced Windam
Happisburgh pronounced Haysborough
Mundesley pronounced Munslee
Costessey pronounced Cossee

[ 30. May 2017, 14:51: Message edited by: kingsfold ]

Posts: 4442 | From: land of the wee midgie | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
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# 17338

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Without going anywhere near the Shrewsbry/ Shrosbry debate, you'll find locals pronounce Monmouth Munmth. And on the south coast there's Bosham, pronounced Bozzum.

On the maternal paternal side, someone in the family married a man called Fetherstonhaugh - pronounced Fanshaw.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4514 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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Charlottetown (Prince Edward Island) said Sharlatown
Amherstburg (New Brunswick) said Amersburg
Mozart (Saskatchewan) sais Moe's-ERT.
Ile a la Crosse (Sask) said I'll luh Cross

We say "fillet" fillet, I hear our American friends say "fillay".

A "nip" was a cheeseburger when I lived in Winnipeg.

Posts: 10501 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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Bogota, New Jersey -- buh-GO-tuh
Bogota, Colombia -- BOE-gu-tah

Newark, New Jersey -- NEW-urk
Newark, Delaware -- NEW-ark

St. Augustine, Florida -- AW-gus-teen
St. Augustine, Bishop of Hippo -- uh-GUS-tin

Versailles, Pennsylvania -- ver-SALES
Versailles, France -- ver-SIGH

and the perennial favorite:

Houston, Texas -- HUES-ton
Houston Street, New York City -- HOWS-ton

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 10055 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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And you have nowt on the Scots

Here is Canedolia by Edwin Morgan and what it sounds like when read.

Jengie

[code fix]

[ 31. May 2017, 02:42: Message edited by: jedijudy ]

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Walking 18 miles to help Refugees get an education.

Posts: 20459 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
jedijudy

Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333

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My sister married a Powell. When she first told me about him after they met, I thought she said Pow, and that's how I pronounced his name until I saw it written!

To continue Miss Amanda's list:
Monticello in Virginia---Mon ti CHELL o.
I was informed that Monticello PA is pronounced---Mon TEEK el lo.

When I was visiting friends in Brighton, England, we were preparing to leave for Salisbury the next morning. So, I pronounced it like the steak dish, Sal lis berry. Our hostess kindly corrected me. She said it's pronounce Salls bry there!

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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.

Posts: 17584 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged



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