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Source: (consider it) Thread: potätö_potahtö
Carex
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quote:
Originally posted by Trudy Scrumptious:
When I lived in Ontario I used to hear people say "youse" in the places I would be used to hearing "ye" at home.

I first ran into "youse" visiting rural Pennsylvania, though we knew the phrase "youse guys" from movies (typically used by New York gangsters.)
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Ian Climacus

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Ah, thanks Kelly!
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Baptist Trainfan
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All this, of course, led to massive misunderstanding of the Bible while the AV was in common use, as people read "thou" as a special title for God alone and failed to recognise that "you" was collective rather than individual.
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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
All this, of course, led to massive misunderstanding of the Bible while the AV was in common use, as people read "thou" as a special title for God alone and failed to recognise that "you" was collective rather than individual.

When The Episcopal Church started Prayer Book revision in the late 60s, a lot of people were horrified by the ideas of addressing God as "you" rather than "thou." They assumed "you" was for commoners, while "thou" was much more respectful.

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Ian Climacus

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Yes. I had people tell me the same thing when I dared to carry a non-KJV Bible. Thankfully linguistics is a hobby of mine.

As per a post on another thread: Asian. Here it means Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, SE Asian, etc. While in the UK Oriental is the term as Asian refers to those from the sub-continent (I think). We only really use Oriental for products (like a rug) or packet noodle seasoning, so a Malaysian-Australian friend was quite put out to be referred to as an Oriental in the UK. "I'm not a rug!", she told me.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
All this, of course, led to massive misunderstanding of the Bible while the AV was in common use, as people read "thou" as a special title for God alone and failed to recognise that "you" was collective rather than individual.

When The Episcopal Church started Prayer Book revision in the late 60s, a lot of people were horrified by the ideas of addressing God as "you" rather than "thou." They assumed "you" was for commoners, while "thou" was much more respectful.
That was a conscious editorial decision of the RSV -- "thou" for God and "you" for everybody else. It's still the preferred mode (apparently) for translating Orthodox liturgy into English, at least in the OCA. I hate it.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Yes. I had people tell me the same thing when I dared to carry a non-KJV Bible. Thankfully linguistics is a hobby of mine.

As per a post on another thread: Asian. Here it means Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Vietnamese, SE Asian, etc. While in the UK Oriental is the term as Asian refers to those from the sub-continent (I think). We only really use Oriental for products (like a rug) or packet noodle seasoning, so a Malaysian-Australian friend was quite put out to be referred to as an Oriental in the UK. "I'm not a rug!", she told me.

Uh, yeah. Around here the collective varieties of Asian easily out number every other racial demographic we got, and if someone called somebody around here "Oriental", it would go over like a loud wet fart.

My grandma used the word occasionally. Drove me nuts.

Something similar came up years back when I expressed discomfort at using the phrase "the Jews" instead of "Jewish folk " or similar. Now that some discussion has taken place about the volatile racial issues in the US, maybe it makes more sense that I would be so squeamish. The way people threw down the phrase historically kind of leaves a residue of KKK rants and Joseph McCarthy paranoia, so when I was asked to soften my tone, I was happy to do it.

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Gee D
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Agree about Jew - We would never say of someone that s/he is a Jew, but rather that they are Jewish. The same about the plural - Jewish people, not Jews. Maybe we're a bit squeamish about it, but being born just after WW II makes us very aware of the terrible usage under Hitler and his gang.

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
]Uh, yeah. Around here the collective varieties of Asian easily out number every other racial demographic we got, and if someone called somebody around here "Oriental", it would go over like a loud wet fart.

I'll admit that one always puzzled me. Never got a definitive answer, even from Asians. The best response was that Oriental conjures the exoticism of Orientalism and the racism that accompanied it.
Doesn't matter, though, if a group of people do not like a term, time to stop using it.

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If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
....As for correct pronounciation, look no further than the Powell brothers: Jonathan pronounces his surname to rhyme with towel, Charles to rhyme with soul.

It has just occurred to me that if you go back to the Welsh origin of Powell, Ap Howell or really Ap Hywel, 'poul' is no further from the original than 'pow-ell', Hywel being pronounced Ho'wel.

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Agree about Jew - We would never say of someone that s/he is a Jew, but rather that they are Jewish. The same about the plural - Jewish people, not Jews. Maybe we're a bit squeamish about it, but being born just after WW II makes us very aware of the terrible usage under Hitler and his gang.

My wife refers to a Jewish woman as a "Jewess" which annoys me intensely - nothing to do with the Hitler thing, more because it comes over as both racist and sexist (which my wife is not!)

On "the Jews" vs. "Jewish people" - surely the former lumps everyone together into one homogeneous mass, while the other implies individuality and exceptionality? The same would be true of any generalisations made about "the Scots" or "the Welsh" etc., although possibly without so much of the historical baggage.

This comes to a head in some telling of the Passion narrative which say that Jesus was condemned by "the Jews". No, he wasn't: only certain people were involved in his arrest and trial, those living outside Jerusalem wouldn't have had a clue about what was happening and, in any case, most if not all his disciples were Jews!

[ 03. June 2017, 09:24: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Baptist Trainfan
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
In any case, most if not all his disciples were Jews!

Whoops, hoist with my own petard - I of course wished to say that they were "Jewish", but missed the edit window for correction. [Hot and Hormonal]
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Gee D
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To use Jew seems to us to be far too closely linked to anti-semitic harangues; Jewish does not have those connotations. Even in the Merchant of Venice, the use of Jew comes across as linked to the anti-semitism of the day.

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Moo

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That was a conscious editorial decision of the RSV -- "thou" for God and "you" for everybody else. It's still the preferred mode (apparently) for translating Orthodox liturgy into English, at least in the OCA. I hate it.

It does have the advantage of making it clear whether one person or a group is being addressed. For instance, Jesus said to the rich young man, "Sell all that thou hast, and give it to the poor." He was talking to one specific person. That's not to say the rest of us are not supposed to help the poor, but that specific command was given to one specific person.

Moo

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Baptist Trainfan
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That's true, but I was thinking more the other way round: especially in the Epistles we take advice or commands given to the Church collectively but think of them as merely matters of individual concern.
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Pigwidgeon

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What has always sounded confusing to me is "Drink ye all of it."

Of course it means all should drink of the Cup, but it sounds as if everyone should drain the Cup.

(Commas would help.)

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
The best response was that Oriental conjures the exoticism of Orientalism and the racism that accompanied it.

I have heard complaint that defining (part of) Asia as the Orient is a very Eurocentric thing - it's only the East if you start from here.

(And agreed - if someone doesn't like being called X, you don't call them X, and the reasons aren't so important.)

(I don't think Oriental is popular in the UK to refer to groups of people any more. You're right that "Asian" tends to imply the Indian subcontinent; I'm not sure that there is a collective term in current use to include Chinese, Japanese, Filipinos, and so on. East Asian?)

[ 03. June 2017, 21:42: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]

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Curiosity killed ...

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I haven't ever heard anyone use Oriental to describe people in the UK. It is used of furniture styles or carpets. I have read Oriental used to describe people in books, eg Sherlock Holmes and other Victorian books, but it's a really antiquated usage.

Asian is the general word here (and on official forms) and includes both Chinese / Malaysian Asian and Indian / Pakistani / Bangladeshi Asian. When I'm coding racial identity on school forms the options are:
  • White with variations (WHB is white British)
  • Asian with variations and
  • Black African or Black Caribbean, with variations and
  • mixed race options


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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Welease Woderwick

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Here, in what is roughly South Central Asia but is generally known as South Asia, what most people call The Middle East we call West Asia - it is Asia and it is west of us. At the other end China, Japan, the Koreas, Indo-China, etc. are either Far East or East Asia.

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Ian Climacus

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Thanks for the UK respondents on "oriental". It was not that long ago...perhaps it was an older person; I did not ask.
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mousethief

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The University of Chicago's institute for studying the ancient near east is still called the Oriental Institute. (Their museum is fabulous btw.)

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Curiosity killed ...

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The University of London still has SOAS, which comes from the original name of School of Oriental and African Studies, but it's called SOAS by everyone, including the website. It was founded in 1916 as the School of Oriental Studies, changing the name in 1938. By 1946 the Scarborough Report was discussing African and Asian studies.

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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

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Yangtze
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I studied in the Oriental Institute at Oxford University.

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organic cotton, fair trade cotton, linen

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Agree about Jew - We would never say of someone that s/he is a Jew, but rather that they are Jewish. The same about the plural - Jewish people, not Jews. Maybe we're a bit squeamish about it, but being born just after WW II makes us very aware of the terrible usage under Hitler and his gang.

Here's the funny thing-- as I said, this came up before on the Ship, years ago, when I expressed discomfort at the way people in the discussion were using the word "Jew". Of the four or five people who responded, the consensus seemed to be of the "My friend is a Jew and the word Jew doesn't bother him", and they pretty much put it down to my cultural over sensitivity to racial terms.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Tobias
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I’ve gone looking through my books to see what terminology Jewish writers use, and have found 'Jew' and 'Jews' so many times that I have great difficulty believing that the word is considered per se objectionable by Jewish people by and large. It would seem that plenty of Jewish people not only are not bothered by it, but use it by preference to identify themselves.

I’m not sure whose usage exactly Gee D is describing - as another Australian, I can't say I'm aware of Australian usage differing from that of other parts of the world on this point.

[ 07. June 2017, 06:09: Message edited by: Tobias ]

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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.

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Gee D
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In Australia, there's the League of Rights at one end of the spectrum; at the other, there's the Trot element in the NSW Greens. Lots of far right groups in both the US and UK and equally among the far left. Then of course there is not so ancient history.

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Tobias
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I'm sorry, Gee D, I've expressed myself very badly. I shouldn't have used the word 'usage': it made it look as if I was referring to one part of your post when I meant another.

What I meant was that I don't know who you mean when you write, "We would never say...", "Maybe we're a bit squeamish..."

I didn't mean to cast doubt on the fact that the word 'Jew' has been, and is, used hatefully by some speakers. It seems to me, though, that, in spite of that hateful use, Jewish people by and large do not have a problem with the word 'Jew' in itself. I'm not aware of any widespread practice in Australia of avoiding the word, and (having just looked) I have found a number of Australian Jewish websites that use it constantly.

Sorry again - I spent an embarrassingly long time trying to word my post well (since it's a sensitive topic), and in the end I made a mess of it.

[ 07. June 2017, 08:16: Message edited by: Tobias ]

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Vocatus atque non vocatus, Deus aderit.

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Gee D
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As I said we are perhaps being a bit squeamish, perhaps a bit irrational, but for us the use of the word Jew conjours up images of Hitler in full tirade. It may not do so for others. The use of Jewish does not have that same effect.

I can accept that at least some Jewish people do not have that same reaction, but I've not yet heard that Jewish gives rise to an adverse reaction amongst them. If it does, then we'll have to look for another word that avoids that problem.

[ 07. June 2017, 10:51: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
To use Jew seems to us to be far too closely linked to anti-semitic harangues; Jewish does not have those connotations. Even in the Merchant of Venice, the use of Jew comes across as linked to the anti-semitism of the day.

There are arguments back and forth about Shakespeare's intentions with that.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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When my daughter taught in London, she was shocked to hear the term "red Indian" used. Racist here. Eskimo to refer to a person is pretty risky, Inuit preferred.

To be shortchanged in a transaction was to be jewed until very recently here. Nobody connected it to Jewish or Jew. Seen this spelled jooed. It now suggests lack of education and ignorance. Hard to consider it more or racist when there are very few Jewish people here. We hear jipped which some suggest is from gypsy, but it doesn't register.

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M.
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Whereas I would use the word 'gip' to mean pain - as in, 'my bunions are giving me some gip today'.

I don't think I've ever seen it written down and have no idea what its derivation is. I think perhaps it's rather old fashioned.

M.

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Ian Climacus

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Is "sure" a synonym for "you're welcome" or a reply to "thanks" in (some parts of) the US?

I've heard it on a few interviews when the interviewer says thanks for coming on. It sounds abrupt to my ears, but that's as I expect a 'thank you'.

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Penny S
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There is a similar use of a racial slur in "welsh", to default on a debt. And the only time I've known someone do that, when the matter was signed on paper (because I had had a feeling about the person), and the payment was revoked verbally to a number of people's detriment, the person's name was Welch. I felt that maybe it was a family, not a racial characteristic.
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sharkshooter

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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Whereas I would use the word 'gip' to mean pain - as in, 'my bunions are giving me some gip today'.


That's a hard g, whereas the following is a soft g (sounding like a j, right?

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
...We hear jipped which some suggest is from gypsy, but it doesn't register.



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Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer. [Psalm 19:14]

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Lothlorien
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I haven't heard that phrase for a very long time but have never heard a hard g used down here at all.

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M.
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No, soft, as Lothlorien says, soft g.

And where is there a racial slur in the word 'welch', Penny S, except for a similarity in sound? It's a perfectly good word.

M.

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Curiosity killed ...

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According the the dictionary sites welching / welshing on deals is a racial slur because it's tying into the stereotype of Welshmen not being trustworthy, Taffy was a Welshman and all that. Although one of the sites suggested that it was targetting the untrustworthy Brits who nipped over the border to avoid coming through on deals.

Apparently, the origins of the word Welsh come from an old English word meaning foreigner.

And, because I looked, the root of gipped is from gypsy - and is more common than I expected as it's turning up in the Urban Directory meaning cheated (which I don't use, but suspect the students I work with do). The origin of the word as I would use it, as a noun meaning pain, is less clear.

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L'organist
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Some years ago a pub company was entirely ignorant that the signwriter they'd employed to redecorate the outside of The Feathers pub IN Westminster had replaced the motto traditionally seen beneath the Prince of Wales' feathers, Ich Dien (I serve) with Twll din pob sais which loosely translates as a**eholes to non-Welsh.

{Footnote: David Cameron once said it was the only phrase his north Welsh grandmother had taught him in the language of heaven [Snigger] }

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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M.
Ship's Spare Part
# 3291

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CK, I eat humble pie. I had thought it was a different word with a serendipitous similar sound.

The OED, though, says it is an obsolete variant of 'Welsh'.

M.

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Albertus
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# 13356

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Yes- and in the sense of defaulting- 'origin uncertain' but possibly connected to the stereotype. Describes that connection as 'conjectured'.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Nick Tamen

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# 15164

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
We hear jipped which some suggest is from gypsy, but it doesn't register.

The etymology is more obvious with the usual spelling: gyp or gypped.

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Is "sure" a synonym for "you're welcome" or a reply to "thanks" in (some parts of) the US?

I've heard it on a few interviews when the interviewer says thanks for coming on. It sounds abrupt to my ears, but that's as I expect a 'thank you'.

Yep. Drives me nuts. It's used similarly to "no problem."

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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"welched" with a ch sound here. Doesn't connect to Welsh which hasn't any significance here. "England" is often used for the whole UK though less frequently over the past decade or so.

"My pleasure" is used in place or "your welcome", not infrequently. I hear the Canadian Métis French "pud rien", and also "okay", which is probably derived from a dialect of Cree, not meaning quite the same thing. I also dislike "no problem", though "no/doesn't bother" has been around much longer, I suspect another translation.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Edith
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# 16978

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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
Whereas I would use the word 'gip' to mean pain - as in, 'my bunions are giving me some gip today'.

I don't think I've ever seen it written down and have no idea what its derivation is. I think perhaps it's rather old fashioned.

M.

I think it comes from gippy tummy meaning an upset digestive system. The origin of that was Egyptian tummy as so many travellers and troops who travelled to Egypt and other hot countries succumbed to this unpleasant condition.

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Edith

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HCH
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# 14313

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Do you prefer "judgment" or "judgement"? (I once checked 5 dictionaries, all of which listed both, though not always in the same order of preference.)
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Lamb Chopped
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# 5528

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judgement by all means. Who wants all those consonants in an unrelieved row?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I am reminded of the controversies about "schedule" is shed-yule or sked-yule? I hear both here.

Also defence as d'fence and DEfence.

Which leads to defence versus defense. We'd use defence as the noun, also licence/license (noun/verb).

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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crunt
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# 1321

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
"England" is often used for the whole UK though less frequently over the past decade or so.

Used by Non-Brits and English people to mean the whole of the UK. Scots, Northern Irish and Welsh people are much less likely to follow the UK = England usage.

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QUIZ: Bible
QUIZ: world religions
LTL Discussion
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Albertus
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# 13356

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Tho' not always so in the past. John Buchan, IIRC, used to use 'England' for Britain quite a lot. That always seems odd to me, when you remember how Scottish he and a lot of his writing were (though of course he did end up settling in Oxfordshire).

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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Although he spent his last years as Governor-General of Canada and was made Baron Tweedsmuir.
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Albertus
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# 13356

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Very much, then, an all-round Empire man.

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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.

Posts: 6358 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged



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