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Source: (consider it) Thread: The Earth - flatness persistence
Penny S
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Just recently, there has been an outbreak of flatearthism in my neck of the woods. (North West Kent) First of all, someone painted graffiti accusing NASA of a cover-up and referring people to the Bible appeared around the shopping centre, to be removed fairly quickly.
Then A4 posters were put up at road junctions.
Now a painted sheet is hung on a footbridge at a village called Darenth exhorting us to "RESEARCH FLAT EARTH".
Why on Earth is this still an issue? (It was used on the radio as an comparision with climate change denial, assuming the matter to be resolved in the favour of roundness.) And why is it around here?

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Welease Woderwick

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Having been born in Essex I would posit that those folks sarf of the River believe all sorts of weird stuff - but then you might make the same sort of comment back!

So I won't.

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Kitten
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A recent meme I saw expressed the opinion that the earth couldn't possibly be flat, otherwise cats would have pushed everything off it by now
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Bishops Finger
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Quite why flatearthism should have suddenly broken out in Kent, I know not, but The Flat Earth Society website makes interesting reading (if you really have nothing better to do):

https://theflatearthsociety.org/home/index.php/about-the-society

I can't make up my mind whether they're serious, or whether it's just a great big wind-up. The latter, I suspect.... [Paranoid]

IJ

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St. Gwladys
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Kitten, I thought of exactly the same thing!

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Hedgehog

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quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
A recent meme I saw expressed the opinion that the earth couldn't possibly be flat, otherwise cats would have pushed everything off it by now

[Big Grin] I love solid scientific evidence like that!

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Og, King of Bashan

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Oddly, the local paper just ran a story about the Flat Earth movement making some headway here in Colorado. Not a whole lot, but the small group that meets is raising money for a billboard.

My non-professional opinion is that this isn't about the earth actually being flat. The one person I know who occasionally shares flat Earth stuff online is also a fairly aggressive anti-vaxer as well. I knew him well in middle school, when he was a regular kid, who was obsessed with pin-up models and basketball. Then he transferred to Columbine High School, where he was good friends with the guys who ended up perpetrating one of the worst school shootings in history (he actually barely made it out before the shooting started, and later found out that some fireworks he had bought with the friends were used in the attack). I didn't hear from him for years, but he showed up on Facebook, posting about traditional Eastern medicine, vaccines, Monsanto, and the flat earth. I have to believe that the trauma he experienced at 18 had something to do with his change.

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Brenda Clough
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Yes, I bet it is less of a scientific coterie than a social group. Like a church. (Do none of then fly in airplanes? You can see the curvature of the globe on a clear day.)

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Bishops Finger
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Yes, that's because the Earth is not only flat, but round. It's the curved edge you're seeing. Trust me.

[Razz]

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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Leorning Cniht
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I bet they all use GPS on their phones without a second thought, though.
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Baptist Trainfan
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Or perhaps it's distortion from the window, deliberately designed to fool you?

Or perhaps the lenses in your eyes change shape at altitude?

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Jane R
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hedgehog:
quote:
I love solid scientific evidence like that!
And I bet there are people out there who will accept the Feline Permutandis Theory without blinking, after sneering at all the real evidence...
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
I bet they all use GPS on their phones without a second thought, though.

Have to have a first thought before you get a second one.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

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mousethief

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What motivation do they ascribe to the perpetuators of the round (spherical) earth myth?

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Schroedinger's cat

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I have seen recently "The earth must be flat. Water can't bend" (or close to that).

I think there are many who do it for a wind up. But for some, it is an anto-scientism. They reject the results of science in principle, so they are liable to be anti-vaxxers. As well as believing that the moon landings were faked.

Why? Becasue they are paranoid. That is pretty much it. So they believe what they want to, and reject what they don't like. Often, if it isn't in the bible, or they haven't seen it themselves, it is probably wrong. I think this is how they can use satnav, because they see it works. Of course, there is a conspiracy as to how it works, becasue it cannot be aything that disproves their idea that the world is flat (something that is totally obvious, if you look out - it is obviously flat).

Mostly, they are people you cannot argue with, becasue first you have to find common ground, and that proves complicated.

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What motivation do they ascribe to the perpetuators of the round (spherical) earth myth?

It's Obama's fault. Everything is -- unless it's Hillary.

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Don't keep calm. Go change the world.

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Penny S
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The Flat Earth Society I knew used to operate, about 50 years back, from an HQ in Dover at the other end of Kent, and had occasional articles in the local paper explaining that the hypothesis was proved by the position the coast of France occupied when viewed against the cliffs. Couldn't see it myself. In particular I couldn't see the waterline at Calais from the waterline in Dover, because there was this lump of water in the way.
In retrospect, I think that one was a wind up and an excuse for meeting in one of the historical pubs that used to lurk in the back streets.
This looks different.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
A recent meme I saw expressed the opinion that the earth couldn't possibly be flat, otherwise cats would have pushed everything off it by now

Along with kittens
[Smile]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What motivation do they ascribe to the perpetuators of the round (spherical) earth myth?

Same as Creationists. Bible says it, therefore it's true, anyone saying otherwise is a tool of Satan casting doubt on sacred Scripture.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Og, King of Bashan

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What motivation do they ascribe to the perpetuators of the round (spherical) earth myth?

One suggestion from the Denver Post write-up:

quote:
“They want you to think you’re insignificant, a speck on the earth, a cosmic mistake,” Sargent says. “The flat earth says you are special, we are special, there is a creator, this isn’t some accident.”
So for some, it is about power through self worth. Although I'm sure that flat earthers are kind of like Episcopalians, in that you probably can't come up with one thing that all of them actually believe.

The article says that YouTube has been a huge catalyst of the new movement. It used to be that the kind of person who already distrusted authority and was prone to believing conspiracy theories would have to look for this kind of stuff. Now it's right there online. It's never been so easy to fall down rabbit holes as it is today, which is kind of an unsettling thought.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
... Although I'm sure that flat earthers are kind of like Episcopalians, in that you probably can't come up with one thing that all of them actually believe.

[Overused] [Killing me]

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Pangolin Guerre
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Spherical planet: Jewish-Masonic-Vogon lie.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
One suggestion from the Denver Post write-up:

They should be saving their money to charter an airplane, not a billboard. That way they could fly to the edge and take pictures.
The biggest problem with the conspiracy part of their theory is why. Why is a round earth key to subjugation?
Though I suppose expecting any sort of consistent logic is unreasonable.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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Bishops Finger--

quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Yes, that's because the Earth is not only flat, but round. It's the curved edge you're seeing. Trust me.

[Razz]

IJ

Of course. It's all right there in Pratchett--though that's Disc World, not Earth, though there are connections. It's a flat disc; hole in the middle (IIRC); seated on the backs of 4 elephants (though once there were 5); all piled atop the turtle Great Atuin.

Spherical planets? What *do* they teach them in those schools these days?

BTW, Pratchett wrote a short story about the creation of Disc World. Don't remember the name, but it's probably online in a bio of Pratchett.

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Nicolemr
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No, the center of Disc World is not a hole, it's the mountain where the gods live, I forget it's name.

The gods in Disc World tend to do things like come down at night and throw stones through atheist's windows. [Big Grin]

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Jane R
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Can't remember the name of the mountain offhand (Cori Celesti?), but the gods lived in a place called Dunmanifestin...
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Golden Key
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Nicole: In the short story I mentioned, there *is* a hole, because someone goes down it. Not sure if it ever shows up in the books, 'cause I haven't read all of them yet.

And yes to both, Jane.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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The Dude abides.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Though I suppose expecting any sort of consistent logic is unreasonable.

Bingo.

I've seen the article shared a few times on Facebook, with all sorts of comments about "I'd like to ask them how they explain XYZ and see what they come up with." As if you are the chosen one whose grasp of logic and science is so sound that these guys will suddenly see the light.

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Sparrow
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What motivation do they ascribe to the perpetuators of the round (spherical) earth myth?

Same as Creationists. Bible says it, therefore it's true, anyone saying otherwise is a tool of Satan casting doubt on sacred Scripture.
So where in the Bible does it says the earth is flat?

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Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
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quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What motivation do they ascribe to the perpetuators of the round (spherical) earth myth?

Same as Creationists. Bible says it, therefore it's true, anyone saying otherwise is a tool of Satan casting doubt on sacred Scripture.
So where in the Bible does it says the earth is flat?
There are flat earth websites dedicated to answering that, natch.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Hedgehog

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# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What motivation do they ascribe to the perpetuators of the round (spherical) earth myth?

Same as Creationists. Bible says it, therefore it's true, anyone saying otherwise is a tool of Satan casting doubt on sacred Scripture.
So where in the Bible does it says the earth is flat?
I was going to ask that myself, but then I realized that poetic phrases such as "to the ends of the earth" (See, for example Acts 1:8) could be read as implying that there are "ends" to the earth. Perhaps even more on point is Isaiah 11:12:*
quote:
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Aha! "four corners" proof positive that the earth has corners (which, okay, goes against the "round disk" concept...but consistency is not important in these arguments).

* If you are using the King James Version or New KJV. The NIV translates it as "four quarters" of the earth. Clearly, the people behind the NIV are tools of the devil and part of this "globe" conspiracy.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Golden Key
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...whereas some people take the first part of this verse to say that the Earth is round:

quote:

Isaiah 40:22 King James Version (KJV)

22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Just FYI. Not pushing it. I've just run into it.

[ 15. July 2017, 02:30: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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Gee D
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And let's not forget Donne's magnificent lines:

At the round earth's imagin'd corners, blow
Your trumpets, angels, and arise, arise
From death, you numberless infinities
Of souls,

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Re Disc World:

Ok, some corrections.

The "short story" I referenced was actually the novel "Strata". I skimmed through a few articles. Ideas vary about whether it's Disc World. (They're very, very similar.) Strata was written first. Pratchett evidently said that they weren't really connected. Someone else said Strata is sort of a "pre-configuration" of Disc World. Strata has its own article in Wikipedia. I'm not posting a link, because there are major spoilers. But it's there, if you want it.

TTBOMK, IIRC, the Strata disc world did have a hole, where the Hub is on Disc World.

Sorry for any confusion.

[ 15. July 2017, 04:07: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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anoesis
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# 14189

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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Sparrow:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What motivation do they ascribe to the perpetuators of the round (spherical) earth myth?

Same as Creationists. Bible says it, therefore it's true, anyone saying otherwise is a tool of Satan casting doubt on sacred Scripture.
So where in the Bible does it says the earth is flat?
I was going to ask that myself, but then I realized that poetic phrases such as "to the ends of the earth" (See, for example Acts 1:8) could be read as implying that there are "ends" to the earth. Perhaps even more on point is Isaiah 11:12:*
quote:
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Aha! "four corners" proof positive that the earth has corners (which, okay, goes against the "round disk" concept...but consistency is not important in these arguments).

* If you are using the King James Version or New KJV. The NIV translates it as "four quarters" of the earth. Clearly, the people behind the NIV are tools of the devil and part of this "globe" conspiracy.

But also in the KJV: " He stretcheth out the north over the empty place, and hangeth the earth upon nothing." Job 26:7

I mean, obviously this doesn't preclude its being a disc, but it does rather rule out turtles all the way down. Which is surely coming next, if this sort of thing carries on...

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- Jon Stewart on Bruce Springsteen -

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Eutychus
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I've had the conviction for, I don't know, some 15 or 20 years now that we are entering a New Middle Ages, and the resurgence of flat earthism as a conviction that attracts serious believers is I suppose further evidence of that. As SC says, it's anti-science.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Hedgehog--

quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Perhaps even more on point is Isaiah 11:12:*
quote:
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

There's a verse about God setting up a sign, and it may be this one, that some people have interpreted as being the Great Pyramid. And then there are "pyramid inches", which supposedly are codes for prophecies and such.

More weirdness. [Smile]

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Schroedinger's cat

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# 64

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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
* If you are using the King James Version or New KJV. The NIV translates it as "four quarters" of the earth. Clearly, the people behind the NIV are tools of the devil and part of this "globe" conspiracy.

ANd there are plently of places dedicated to this idea. The KJV is the one and only cersion, anything else is a heresy.

They are in the same league.

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wild haggis
Apprentice
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Of course the earth is flat!
My 2/6p atlas I bought in Woolworths as a child only had flat maps.

Oh dear, I forgot the globe in the corner of the classroom with all the British colonies in pink!

Am I a haggis with little brain!!!

Seriously though, what do the Flat Earth proponents think of the photos from the space station, or do they think they are forgeries?

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Sarah G
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# 11669

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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Perhaps even more on point is Isaiah 11:12:*
quote:
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.
Aha! "four corners" proof positive that the earth has corners.
Have they made progress on deciding what sort of quadrilateral the earth is?

The assumption might be that it's a square, but the Bible doesn't actually say that. If it were a trapezium, that would surely prove the existence of God.

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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Could even be a rhombus (dimly remembered from schoolday maths).

By the way,if God is "setting up an ensign", does that mean he is a navy Admiral in disguise?

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Hedgehog--

quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Perhaps even more on point is Isaiah 11:12:*
quote:
And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth.

There's a verse about God setting up a sign, and it may be this one, that some people have interpreted as being the Great Pyramid. And then there are "pyramid inches", which supposedly are codes for prophecies and such.

More weirdness. [Smile]

Addendum, from way out in the Twilight Zone:

"Pyramid Inch" (Wikipedia).

"THE GREAT PYRAMID Part One: The Ancient Mystery Unraveled" (Great Pyramid).

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:

Seriously though, what do the Flat Earth proponents think of the photos from the space station, or do they think they are forgeries?

Or even simple air travel. We'd see the 'edge' easily by plane. In fact we'd fly over it!

What happens at the edge? Disc World has a never ending waterfall [Smile]

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Didn't Rincewind and Twoflower go over the edge and a little way underneath? Maybe in the 2nd book?

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Jay-Emm
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# 11411

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Didn't Rincewind and Twoflower go over the edge and a little way underneath? Maybe in the 2nd book?

End of first they get sent over. Twoflower in the ship, Rincewind ending on a tree sticking out the edge.
Start of second, Magic 'undoes that' (IIUC).

And with that testimony I think the deals pretty much sealed.

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Jane R
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# 331

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Eutychus:
quote:
I've had the conviction for, I don't know, some 15 or 20 years now that we are entering a New Middle Ages, and the resurgence of flat earthism as a conviction that attracts serious believers is I suppose further evidence of that. As SC says, it's anti-science.

I do not think "the Middle Ages" mean what you think they mean. I offer you William of Ockham and Roger Bacon as counterexamples to this pernicious idea that everyone in the Middle Ages was an idiot or a lumpen savage.

The Middle Ages went on for rather a long time, too. Progress (scientific, technological, cultural) was not frozen upon the fall of the Roman Empire and only restarted after the fall of Constantinople and the beginning of the Renaissance.

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Penny S
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# 14768

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Alternative quadrilaterals include the kite, which conjures up a pleasant image of God holding the string.

Given that Ancient Greek philosophers had deduced the sphere by observing the shadow on lunar eclipses, the edge of which is always curved, no matter where in the sky the Moon is during the eclipse, or where the observer is. Of course, they didn't have access to the furthest regions.

[ 15. July 2017, 15:22: Message edited by: Penny S ]

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Eutychus:
quote:
I've had the conviction for, I don't know, some 15 or 20 years now that we are entering a New Middle Ages, and the resurgence of flat earthism as a conviction that attracts serious believers is I suppose further evidence of that. As SC says, it's anti-science.

I do not think "the Middle Ages" mean what you think they mean. I offer you William of Ockham and Roger Bacon as counterexamples to this pernicious idea that everyone in the Middle Ages was an idiot or a lumpen savage.

The Middle Ages went on for rather a long time, too. Progress (scientific, technological, cultural) was not frozen upon the fall of the Roman Empire and only restarted after the fall of Constantinople and the beginning of the Renaissance.

I offer the Middle Ages not so much as a time when everyone was an idiot but a time when scientific knowledge and new scientific discovery was treated as more suspect by more of the population than in the last couple of centuries in the West.

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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331

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Well, there I think you are being overly optimistic about human nature. People have always been suspicious of change.
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