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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Treiglad meddal - the Welsh thread
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Gill H
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# 68
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Posted
And how did English end up with 'window'?
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*sigh* We can’t all be Alan Cresswell.
- Lyda Rose
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andras
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# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gill H:
And how did English end up with 'window'?
Window is Norse - the original sense of it is 'Wind Eye'.
As a general thing, and with all sorts of exceptions, words of Latin origin which have ended up as Welsh loan words have tended to come from Gaulish Latin rather than the Roman form.
The Gauls, for instance, seem to have had difficulty pronouncing the initial sc- in such Latin words as scala (ladder) and scholae (school) and so inserted a helpful vowel in front, giving modern French échelle and école respectively, where the accent on the é marks the disappearance of the -s- (which was still there in Middle French, and indeed lasted until the 17th Century or later).
And, of course, modern Welsh still proudly has ysgol, with both the Gaulish-inspired 'incorrect' initial vowel and the -s- still in full view.
Relating Welsh llaw to Latin palma takes a bit more effort, and I'm not going to do it here; but the two words are indeed cognate. Linguistics is fun!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
In the meantime I would like to know how so much French - eglwys (church), bont (bridge), Duw (God) has made its way into the language.
I think it's more that the French and the Welsh are both derived from Latin while the English words aren't - which would make sense as the Brythonic Celts and the Romans lived together for centuries, whereas the English and the Romans didn't.
Also some of the sound changes from Latin to early French are similar to the sound changes from early Celtic to Welsh, which is sometimes attributed to a residual Celtic presence in late Roman Gaul - so Latin-derived words look similar in both languages.
ecclesia > eglwys, église
pons > pont, pont
Deus > Duw, Dieu
This. There also some less obvious ones:
Saggita --> Saeth
Exiguus --> Eisiau
It's also been observed (although its significance is contested) that proto-Italic and proto-Celtic were very close. Hence we have some still obvious cognates:
Uentus/Gwynt (wind, also cognate of course)
Senex/Hen (old, proto-Celtic S- routinely became H- in Welsh)
Quis/pwy (who, Welsh of course is P-Celtic)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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andras
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# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,
But that sneaky little leading vowel is there in Roman Latin anyway!
But you're right that it isn't possible to be certain that Welsh and Gaulish didn't just happen to go down the same route without any influence between them.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
... Just come back from Welsh lesson. Yes, Cwtch is Welsh, so says a native Welsh speaker; my tutor, who works for the Welsh Government translating into Welsh and also tutoring at Cardiff uni. We discussed in class whether it was Wenglish and no one thinks it is. ...
This may be incorrect usage in Wales, but over here, a Welsh word or grammatical construction being used without really thinking about it when a person is speaking English - including by an English monoglot from Wales - definitely counts as Wenglish.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,
But that sneaky little leading vowel is there in Roman Latin anyway!
You're right; erroneous example. Better one: espada << spatha
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Well, aye, mun ...
I doarn knoar all the ins an' outs, mind, but I grew up with Wenglish, even though I do talk the Queen's English tidy (with a South Walian accent nevertheless) as an educated man ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
So, yes, 'cwtch' or 'cwtsh' comes from the Middle English 'couche' via Norman French and took on several meanings as things developed. It's very much a Valleys word.
Now, 'Poor Dab' - with poor pronounced 'poo-er', that's an expression I've not heard in many a long year.
Oh, the hiraeth ....
![[Waterworks]](graemlins/bawling.gif)
I aff to say, mind, as I'm taken with the way yew lorrave gor to grips with things and how they're learning yew to talk tidy.
I doarn do ah no more.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,
But that sneaky little leading vowel is there in Roman Latin anyway!
You're right; erroneous example. Better one: espada << spatha
Doesn't that leading 'e-' actually come rather later in that particular case? When the word drifted into English for the fourth suit of cards it came as 'spades', though 'swords' would have made more sense.
Not trying to be picky, just curious about that specific example; and I still suspect - thanks to simple geography - a strong Gaulish Latin influence on what I suppose we should call Brythonic, though all my instincts are to call it Early Welsh.
But then I'm a maverick here; I have strong suspicions that Y Gododdin is 'really' Pictish rather than Welsh, but that that's really a distinction without much of a difference.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,
But that sneaky little leading vowel is there in Roman Latin anyway!
You're right; erroneous example. Better one: espada << spatha
Doesn't that leading 'e-' actually come rather later in that particular case? When the word drifted into English for the fourth suit of cards it came as 'spades', though 'swords' would have made more sense.
Not trying to be picky, just curious about that specific example; and I still suspect - thanks to simple geography - a strong Gaulish Latin influence on what I suppose we should call Brythonic, though all my instincts are to call it Early Welsh.
But then I'm a maverick here; I have strong suspicions that Y Gododdin is 'really' Pictish rather than Welsh, but that that's really a distinction without much of a difference.
Cumbric rather than Pictish; the versions we have are definitely Welsh, but the original composition would be an older form of the language.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
On Welsh epenthetic vowels, they're absent from Cornish as far as I know which points to an independent Welsh origin.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
On Welsh epenthetic vowels, they're absent from Cornish as far as I know which points to an independent Welsh origin.
Yes, I think that's right. Good point!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Anyone been watching un bore mercher (it's a drama which translates as "one Wednesday morning") on S4c?
It's quite good.. although a bit disturbing in a few ways, particularly the portrayal of disabled people as scary and gay people as disloyal.
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arse
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wild haggis
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# 15555
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Posted
Pictish? We don't know what Pictish was or sounded like! It doesn't exisit as a language any more!
Do you mean Scottish Gaelic and do you mean Western (most common) or eastern (almost extinct)?
We had a neighbour in London, who fancied himself as a linguist because he could speak a couple of languages (that's NOT what a linguist is). He tried to link all languages together as coming from common causes, with the most weird theories. Unless you have studied linguistics and know the languages I'd beware of making supposed connections.
There is no doubt that certain languages have common "loan" words or evolve from close neighbours but sometimes theorising can get very silly. Last night, in Welsh class, we made a list of "loan" words in Welsh or as ends up Wenglish - great game when you are bored at Christmas.
As to S4C - I'm at "Sam Tan" level myself. At the moment and enjoy every minute of it. Maybe I'm in my second - or is it -3rd childhood!!
My kitchen radio is tuned to Radio Cymyru - not that I can understand everything but it helps me to "tune in" to the language.
Anyway Nagolid LLanwen evryone,
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wild haggis
Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Pictish (there may have been more than one Pictish language) is an enigma. It was probably (from what we know) Brythonic, but whether it was dervied from form which gave rise to Breton/Welsh/Cornish/Cumbric or a separate branch is unclear.
However, the Gododdin (and other works of Beirdd Hen Ogledd) would have been originally composed in Cumbric - another language of which we know it existed but not much else. To what degree the archaic Cumbric of their period would have differed from the archaic Welsh of the same period is disputable; later Cumbric certainly was distinct. It's not Pictish though. At this period there is a Gaelic speaking band across Scotland splitting Cumbric from Pictish, even if there had been a continuum a few centuries earlier before Gaelic was brought to Scotland.
Cumbric, by the way, survives in a few place names - Blencathra, Skiddaw, Helvellyn (compare Welsh words Blaen, Cadair, Ysgwd, Melyn), Lanark (Llannerch), Glasgow (Glas and Cau). I'm more than a little sceptical of the Yan, Tan, Tethera sheep counts however.
It's true though that few fields have more people with outlandish theories than linguistics. The internet is full of people trying to "revive" Cumbric, for example. Rather tricky based on three words in an English document which where probably corrupted as they were transcribed, place names (which are notoriously shifting) and guesswork. It's like the people who claim Breton and Welsh speakers can understand each other. They can indeed - if they learn the other one's language first. I know a number of Breton speakers who are learning Welsh, but they do indeed need to learn it to communicate. I treat claims of survival of traditional Cornish into the early 20th C with the same scepticism. People love tales of mutual comprehensibility (Breton and Welsh are a lot more different than, for example, Scots and English, and most English speakers struggle to parse Rabbie Burns) and language survival (my mother spoke Cornish and her uncle spoke Dalmatian* back in the 1920s, honest!)
*the extinct language, not the dog.
The only problem with Radio Cymru is Tommo. I cannot abide the man.
[ 13. December 2017, 14:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
It's true that we don't 'know' what Pictish was or sounded like; but from the very large number of P-Celtic placenames in Pictavia we can certainly make a reasonable supposition that it was very closely related to what I think of as Early Welsh, with a high degree of mutual comprehension between speakers.
If a Kentucky coal-miner and a Glaswegian engineer both speak dialects of English, then I'm not shy of saying that 'closely related' here means much the same as 'dialects of the same language'.
For such Brythonic place-names in the Pictish area I instance Ecclefechan, Paisley, Auchtermuchty, Perth, Peebles and the name of Bridei III's great fort of Dundurn ('the fort of the fist'); but there are so many more more that it would be pointless to list them here.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
As is well known, almost all the languages in Europe are related, and referred to as Info-European. The exceptions are Basque, Hungarian, Finnish, Saami and Maltese. Maltese is related to Arabic, Hebrew etc. Hungarian, Finnish and Saami come from further east. There were other languages that were unrelated but they are lost. A widespread current view is that the other languages spread through Europe with agriculture. Presumably in some places when people acquired agriculture, they carried on speaking what they spoke before. The Etruscans, in Tuscany, spoke one, but Basque is the only one that has survived to the present.
Because next to nothing is known about Pictish, there has been some conjecture that it might have been another of those. Like a lot of things that are impossible to reach any sensible conclusion about, people can choose to project onto Pictish what their imagination would like it to have been, whether like Welsh, Gaelic, or neither. Or we can accept that we just do not know, and probably never will.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Ecclefechan is from the Cumbric speaking part of Southern Scotland (could have been Rheged or Strathclyde; the boundaries are far from clear and doubtless shifted). Dundurn is I understand generally taken to be a Gaelic form, although the words in both are quite similar (Welsh Din(as), dwrn). Thing is we don't know if it's what Bridei called it.
That Pictish was P-Celtic is generally accepted; how closely related to Old Welsh is more in dispute. There may have been another Pictish language which may underlie the otherwise inscrutable Pictish inscriptions which may have been non-Indoeuropean.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
Sir John Rhys, of course - born not twenty miles from where I'm writing this - certainly thought that the Picts weren't Celts; I think he toyed with the idea that they were Etruscan or something equally unlikely, but I could be imagining that. But I don't think that view is at all tenable today, certainly as regards most of mainland Scotland. The far north may be a different question, and one about which I know absolutely nothing!
The question of what Bridei may have called his hill-fort is an interesting one, to which of course there's no final answer; it may well have had more than one name, just as the final battle between Northumbrian and Pictish forces was fought at a place variously called Llyn Garan and Nechtansmere.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Unrhywffordd, Nadolig Llawen i bawb yn dysgu Cymraeg yma, ac i bawb ar y Llong/anyway, Merry Christmas to everyone here learning Welsh, and to everyone on the Ship.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
Nadolig Llawen, Merry Christmas, i chi!
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555
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Posted
Hope you all had a great Christmas. I enjoyed the carols on S4C but still trying to come to grips with some verbs! Next job learn the Welsh national anthem by heart in Welsh.
Wonder what you would make of Auchinshuggle and Milingavie? Nothing to do with Pictish, just lalands Scots.
The Picts came from the east side of Scotland around Angus/Fife area.There is so much conjecture out there.
Yes I agree with Hungarian being different from the other European languages, but I don't think it's related to Saami, unless that is Estonian. Finish, Estonian and Hungarian are distantly related but not mutually intelligible. The intonation patterns are the same, so the music of the languages resonates but they have altered and gone their own ways over the centuries, as is usually the case. If you think learning Welsh is bad, Hungarian is worse with vowel harmony!
Linguists in Hungary are now saying that the roots of the language come from beyond the Urals with the Great Migration.
Right now, I'm off to make some "cawl" and then try and write up my Welsh diary!!!!! No more lessons until 9th!
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wild haggis
Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Linguists in Hungary are now saying that the roots of the language come from beyond the Urals with the Great Migration.
Hungarian is in the Uralic language family which does also include the Saami languages as well as Finnish and Estonian. I think the the usual proposed origin for the Uralic languages are the northern Ural mountain region with debates on exactly which side.
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spinner of webs
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
Blwyddyn Newydd Dda i bawb!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I decided to buy a TV (and license!) in 2018 in order to spend more time watching s4c yn Gymraeg (in Welsh). Newyddion 9 (the 9 o'clock news) is something of a revelation - along with the interesting instant translation. But there are lots of good things to sample - hurrah for es pedwar ec (s4c, um, in Welsh).
I'm not sure if anyone else is interested, but I've also enjoyed watching Cerys Matthews in this programme about the hymn Calon Lân (a pure heart).
Cerys speaks clearly and quite slowly so I find it good to follow along with (with the subtitles) unlike some of the other speakers in the programme who speak quite fast.
I also learnt about the concept of "macaronic" language - where Welsh poets deliberately played with words and phrases from other languages in their work.
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Efallai fod di'n mwynhau ei CD hi "Tir" / You might enjoy her album "Tir".
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You might enjoy her album "Tir".
I doubt it, I can't stand her singing.
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arse
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I decided to buy a TV (and license!) in 2018 in order to spend more time watching s4c yn Gymraeg (in Welsh). Newyddion 9 (the 9 o'clock news) is something of a revelation - along with the interesting instant translation. But there are lots of good things to sample - hurrah for es pedwar ec (s4c, um, in Welsh).
I'm not sure if anyone else is interested, but I've also enjoyed watching Cerys Matthews in this programme about the hymn Calon Lân (a pure heart).
Cerys speaks clearly and quite slowly so I find it good to follow along with (with the subtitles) unlike some of the other speakers in the programme who speak quite fast.
I also learnt about the concept of "macaronic" language - where Welsh poets deliberately played with words and phrases from other languages in their work.
A lot of us have been singing macronic verses in church and elsewhere over the last few weeks - hymns and carols in English or Welsh with part of the text in Latin - In excelsis gloria!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555
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Posted
Radio Cymru is on in my kitchen, to help me tune in to the language intonation. Can't understand everything but it does help.
I'm now trying to learn the Welsh National Anthem properly - some good stuff on-line with the words and a singer. so you can get it right. Then there is Nigel Jenkins' version of the National Anthem for non-Welsh speakers, "My hen laid a haddock......" eek!! I'd rather stick to learning the Welsh. Singing is a good way to learn languages.
Also now subscribe to "Lingo Newydd" which is excellent for those learning Welsh.
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wild haggis
Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by wild haggis:
Radio Cymru is on in my kitchen, to help me tune in to the language intonation. Can't understand everything but it does help.
I'm now trying to learn the Welsh National Anthem properly - some good stuff on-line with the words and a singer. so you can get it right. Then there is Nigel Jenkins' version of the National Anthem for non-Welsh speakers, "My hen laid a haddock......" eek!! I'd rather stick to learning the Welsh. Singing is a good way to learn languages.
Also now subscribe to "Lingo Newydd" which is excellent for those learning Welsh.
The 'Hen laid a Haddock' thing is a bloody insult. Do that in any other language and you'd have the wrath of God visited on you. It's not even accurate.
Radio Cymru - it so depends on the presenters. I can follow the "BBC Welsh" ones, but some of the more dialectual speakers, especially the fast ones - I'm lost. Tommo can go and get lost in an unknown flooded passage in Dan yr Ogof as far as I'm concerned; I don't need my Welsh shouted in the manner of a football commentator.
As for Cerys, well, bless her cotton socks, she's distinctive, let's put it that way. Anyone else noticed that the two things you can't sing along to without ending up with a Welsh accent are Guide Me O Thou Great Jehovah and anything by Catatonia*? I swear I sound more English singing Mae Hen Wlad fy Nhadau.. although fy Nhadau lived in Lancashire.
*Is it just me, or is there a line in Mulder and Scully that works better in Welsh than English - "Stop doing what you keep doing it to me?" something like "Paid a gwneud beth ti'n ei wneud i mi?"
[ 07. January 2018, 22:30: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555
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Posted
Couldn't agree with more about the "My hen..." Welsh National Anthem. Do you think we could have them racism?!!
I wonder if anyone can help - my Welsh teacher wasn't any help at all in explaining the below.
In class we learned ages ago that to ask a person's name you use the phrase: "Pwy dych chi?" or "Pwy wyt ti?"
No problems there. But the Usborne "Welsh for Beginners" (pub 2001) that I bought when I first came here says "Beth ydy enw di?" which I presume is another way of asking what is you name? I was looking through the book just as a revision exercise after been doing Welsh classes and was struct with the difference.
My teacher, a native Welsh speaker, last night, said it must be an old form of Welsh!! She couldn't really explain the difference. Help.
Welsh, being such a rich language, does have so many ways of saying the same thing. Can someone enlighten me on which is the correct way of saying it? And if both are valid which you use when. I have always used the "Pwy dychi chi/wyt ti? phrase.
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wild haggis
Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
I think it is about simplicity, politeness and regional differences. Many tutors teach outside of where they grew up so struggle to give or explain the prescribed form of the language used in your course.
I'm not sure is it so different in English.
Who are you? - accurate, but possibly a bit aggressive
What's your name? - accurate but possibly a bit bland/textbook
I suspect most people would say (a regional variation of) - Hi, how are you - I'm blahdiblah.
Which technically isn't very accurate, because it is one of those situations where we often feel embarrassed to ask new people directly questions, so we make a statement with the expectation that the other person will do likewise and reply in kind.
Welsh seems more direct, but it is a struggle to pick up how people really talk - and hearing an unknown formulation or arrangement of words can easily throw you, I find.
[ 10. January 2018, 11:46: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I've always learnt/used "beth ydy d'enw di/eich enw chi". Missing out the dy before enw seems a bit off; I'd sooner miss out the echo pronoun and say "beth ydy d'enw".
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I've heard the same. Miss out the last di or chi but not the eich or dy.
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arse
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
In fact I was told that the final pronoun sounds like you are emphasising whose the thing is - it is his name.
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arse
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
In fact I was told that the final pronoun sounds like you are emphasising whose the thing is - it is his name.
Yes - "What's your name?" - "Beth ydy d'enw?"
"I'm KLB, what's your name?" - "KLB ydw i, beth ydy d'enw di?"
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure is it so different in English.
Who are you? - accurate, but possibly a bit aggressive
What's your name? - accurate but possibly a bit bland/textbook
I suspect most people would say (a regional variation of) - Hi, how are you - I'm blahdiblah.
"I'm terribly sorry, but your name seems to have slipped my mind, would you be so kind as to repeat it". ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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wild haggis
Shipmate
# 15555
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Posted
Thank you. That is helpful.
I'm on the Welsh Government/Uni course. We have a lovely tutor (S Wales) but she's not really a teacher. The organisation has been helpful with material and I'm going on a speaking day at the beginning of Feb.
Our handbook uses the "pwy dych chi/pwy wyt ti" version.
Thanks again, you are all a great bunch helping this wee Scot learn to speak Welsh.
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wild haggis
Posts: 166 | From: Cardiff | Registered: Mar 2010
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
If you like traditional Welsh music and want to practice your Welsh, AND meet a few shipmates as well, you might be interested in coming to a Shipmeet at St Fagans on 24th March ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
We've been learning the various conditional and future tenses recently: could, should, would, might, may, could have and so on.
I'm not good at distinguishing these in English so understanding when to use Gallwn i (I can) is a challenge.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
We've been learning the various conditional and future tenses recently: could, should, would, might, may, could have and so on.
I'm not good at distinguishing these in English so understanding when to use Gallwn i (I can) is a challenge.
Gallwn i is "I could". I can is "Gallaf i".
Welsh is a bit short of some of these English auxiliary verbs. We've got "can/could" with Gallu (or sometimes Medru in the North); we've got "I ought" - Dylwn i, but "might/may" is tricker - we have to use a roundabout phrase with "efallai*" - "perhaps" - which of course you'll hear on the streets of Carmarthen as "Falle".
"I might go into town today" - "Efallai y bydda i'n mynd i'r dre heddiw" - lit. "Perhaps (that) I will go into town today"
*Efallai itself comes from Gallu - it's Ef + (g)allai - "it could" - which is why it's followed by a "that" clause, at least in theory. In the example above the "y" is unlikely to be pronounced.
[ 17. January 2018, 08:11: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Right. But then gallu I think means "able to", so I don't think the conditional forms map exactly onto English can/could. Allwn i goginio cacen? I think that means "Am I able to cook a cake" (which isn't a very sensible question in the personal pronoun) rather than asking permission to make a cake.
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arse
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
We've been learning the various conditional and future tenses recently: could, should, would, might, may, could have and so on.
I'm not good at distinguishing these in English so understanding when to use Gallwn i (I can) is a challenge.
Gallwn i is "I could". I can is "Gallaf i".
Welsh is a bit short of some of these English auxiliary verbs. We've got "can/could" with Gallu (or sometimes Medru in the North); we've got "I ought" - Dylwn i, but "might/may" is tricker - we have to use a roundabout phrase with "efallai*" - "perhaps" - which of course you'll hear on the streets of Carmarthen as "Falle".
"I might go into town today" - "Efallai y bydda i'n mynd i'r dre heddiw" - lit. "Perhaps (that) I will go into town today"
*Efallai itself comes from Gallu - it's Ef + (g)allai - "it could" - which is why it's followed by a "that" clause, at least in theory. In the example above the "y" is unlikely to be pronounced.
In my recent experience, most English speakers on the television and radio have serious problems with the difference between may and might (with a side-order of when and when not to use can). The Welsh forms seem much more straightforward to me, but then I suppose they would.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Right. But then gallu I think means "able to", so I don't think the conditional forms map exactly onto English can/could. Allwn i goginio cacen? I think that means "Am I able to cook a cake" (which isn't a very sensible question in the personal pronoun) rather than asking permission to make a cake.
Ga i 'neud cacen?
Cael can be used for permission.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Right. But then gallu I think means "able to", so I don't think the conditional forms map exactly onto English can/could. Allwn i goginio cacen? I think that means "Am I able to cook a cake" (which isn't a very sensible question in the personal pronoun) rather than asking permission to make a cake.
Ga i 'neud cacen?
Cael can be used for permission.
To use this as a teaching point for those who don't know, Welsh introduces a direct question with A, which causes a soft mutation in the verb that immediately follows it.
BUT - and this is the clever bit - when the A is omitted, as it almost always is in speech and often in writing, the mutation still takes place.
This rule applies to other mutation-causing elements as well; even when they're omitted, the mutation still happens.
End of lesson!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Which leads to the interesting situation where the particle is optional, as opposed to often dropped (yes, there is a difference) - for example the particle mi or fe.
Take Mi gerddais i - I walked (Southerners will be more familiar with Fe rather than Mi)
This could also simply be Cerddais i, as the fe/mi is optional.
But sometimes the fe/mi is dropped, but assumed still to be present, hence you will also hear Gerddais i...
Hence you might get:
Cerddais i
Gerddais i
Mi gerddais i
Fe gerddais i
According to dialect. Or, of course, you might also get variations on:
Mi wnes i gerdded
'Nes i gerdded
Gwnes i gerdded
Mi ddaru fi gerdded
All meaning the same thing. The above list is not exhaustive.
A result of this is a generalisation of the soft mutation on finite verb forms, so while the negative should be cherddais i ddim (assumed ni(d) causes mixed mutation), you may hear gerddais i ddim...
[ 18. January 2018, 10:20: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
Yes, that's all true and goes rather further than I'd dared. And even very careful speakers and writers will sometimes loudly defend using unmutated forms or 'incorrectly' mutated forms in speech when the grammar book says they shouldn't.
I once had quite an argument with a well-known Welsh poet, who was defending his use in speech of the phrase tri tŷ (three houses) instead of - what he would certainly have written - tri thŷ.
And why not, indeed!
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Yes, that's all true and goes rather further than I'd dared. And even very careful speakers and writers will sometimes loudly defend using unmutated forms or 'incorrectly' mutated forms in speech when the grammar book says they shouldn't.
I once had quite an argument with a well-known Welsh poet, who was defending his use in speech of the phrase tri tŷ (three houses) instead of - what he would certainly have written - tri thŷ.
And why not, indeed!
Indeed why? But then again, Mae gen i dri phlentyn* always sounds weird. I think, on balance, I'd also say tri tŷ, although I'd mutate in writing.
*I have three children /ShipLanguageRules
[ 18. January 2018, 11:59: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
How about this:
Allai fe fynd i'r dosbarth? Is he able (can he) go to the class?
So is it
Allai tri bobl fynd
or
Allai dri bobl fynd
(Can three people..)
[ 18. January 2018, 12:15: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
Yes, that's all true and goes rather further than I'd dared. And even very careful speakers and writers will sometimes loudly defend using unmutated forms or 'incorrectly' mutated forms in speech when the grammar book says they shouldn't.
I once had quite an argument with a well-known Welsh poet, who was defending his use in speech of the phrase tri tŷ (three houses) instead of - what he would certainly have written - tri thŷ.
And why not, indeed!
Indeed why? But then again, Mae gen i dri phlentyn* always sounds weird. I think, on balance, I'd also say tri tŷ, although I'd mutate in writing.
*I have three children /ShipLanguageRules
In conversation I suspect most people would say - as I would - Mae gennyf dri o blant, thus neatly passing the problem by on the other side.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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