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Source: (consider it) Thread: Treiglad meddal - the Welsh thread
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by andras:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,

But that sneaky little leading vowel is there in Roman Latin anyway!


You're right; erroneous example. Better one: espada << spatha

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17720 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gamaliel
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# 812

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Well, aye, mun ...

I doarn knoar all the ins an' outs, mind, but I grew up with Wenglish, even though I do talk the Queen's English tidy (with a South Walian accent nevertheless) as an educated man ...

[Biased]

So, yes, 'cwtch' or 'cwtsh' comes from the Middle English 'couche' via Norman French and took on several meanings as things developed. It's very much a Valleys word.

Now, 'Poor Dab' - with poor pronounced 'poo-er', that's an expression I've not heard in many a long year.

Oh, the hiraeth ....

[Waterworks]

I aff to say, mind, as I'm taken with the way yew lorrave gor to grips with things and how they're learning yew to talk tidy.

I doarn do ah no more.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

Posts: 15528 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
andras
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# 2065

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,

But that sneaky little leading vowel is there in Roman Latin anyway!


You're right; erroneous example. Better one: espada << spatha
Doesn't that leading 'e-' actually come rather later in that particular case? When the word drifted into English for the fourth suit of cards it came as 'spades', though 'swords' would have made more sense.

Not trying to be picky, just curious about that specific example; and I still suspect - thanks to simple geography - a strong Gaulish Latin influence on what I suppose we should call Brythonic, though all my instincts are to call it Early Welsh.

But then I'm a maverick here; I have strong suspicions that Y Gododdin is 'really' Pictish rather than Welsh, but that that's really a distinction without much of a difference.

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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass

Posts: 491 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by andras:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm pretty sure that the Welsh epanthetic(sp) vowel arose independently of Gaulish. It also arose in Spanish of course, which is why it's Espanol,

But that sneaky little leading vowel is there in Roman Latin anyway!


You're right; erroneous example. Better one: espada << spatha
Doesn't that leading 'e-' actually come rather later in that particular case? When the word drifted into English for the fourth suit of cards it came as 'spades', though 'swords' would have made more sense.

Not trying to be picky, just curious about that specific example; and I still suspect - thanks to simple geography - a strong Gaulish Latin influence on what I suppose we should call Brythonic, though all my instincts are to call it Early Welsh.

But then I'm a maverick here; I have strong suspicions that Y Gododdin is 'really' Pictish rather than Welsh, but that that's really a distinction without much of a difference.

Cumbric rather than Pictish; the versions we have are definitely Welsh, but the original composition would be an older form of the language.

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17720 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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On Welsh epenthetic vowels, they're absent from Cornish as far as I know which points to an independent Welsh origin.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17720 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
andras
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# 2065

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
On Welsh epenthetic vowels, they're absent from Cornish as far as I know which points to an independent Welsh origin.

Yes, I think that's right. Good point!

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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass

Posts: 491 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Anyone been watching un bore mercher (it's a drama which translates as "one Wednesday morning") on S4c?

It's quite good.. although a bit disturbing in a few ways, particularly the portrayal of disabled people as scary and gay people as disloyal.

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arse

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wild haggis
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# 15555

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Pictish? We don't know what Pictish was or sounded like! It doesn't exisit as a language any more!
Do you mean Scottish Gaelic and do you mean Western (most common) or eastern (almost extinct)?

We had a neighbour in London, who fancied himself as a linguist because he could speak a couple of languages (that's NOT what a linguist is). He tried to link all languages together as coming from common causes, with the most weird theories. Unless you have studied linguistics and know the languages I'd beware of making supposed connections.

There is no doubt that certain languages have common "loan" words or evolve from close neighbours but sometimes theorising can get very silly. Last night, in Welsh class, we made a list of "loan" words in Welsh or as ends up Wenglish - great game when you are bored at Christmas.

As to S4C - I'm at "Sam Tan" level myself. At the moment and enjoy every minute of it. Maybe I'm in my second - or is it -3rd childhood!!

My kitchen radio is tuned to Radio Cymyru - not that I can understand everything but it helps me to "tune in" to the language.

Anyway Nagolid LLanwen evryone,

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wild haggis

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Pictish (there may have been more than one Pictish language) is an enigma. It was probably (from what we know) Brythonic, but whether it was dervied from form which gave rise to Breton/Welsh/Cornish/Cumbric or a separate branch is unclear.

However, the Gododdin (and other works of Beirdd Hen Ogledd) would have been originally composed in Cumbric - another language of which we know it existed but not much else. To what degree the archaic Cumbric of their period would have differed from the archaic Welsh of the same period is disputable; later Cumbric certainly was distinct. It's not Pictish though. At this period there is a Gaelic speaking band across Scotland splitting Cumbric from Pictish, even if there had been a continuum a few centuries earlier before Gaelic was brought to Scotland.

Cumbric, by the way, survives in a few place names - Blencathra, Skiddaw, Helvellyn (compare Welsh words Blaen, Cadair, Ysgwd, Melyn), Lanark (Llannerch), Glasgow (Glas and Cau). I'm more than a little sceptical of the Yan, Tan, Tethera sheep counts however.

It's true though that few fields have more people with outlandish theories than linguistics. The internet is full of people trying to "revive" Cumbric, for example. Rather tricky based on three words in an English document which where probably corrupted as they were transcribed, place names (which are notoriously shifting) and guesswork. It's like the people who claim Breton and Welsh speakers can understand each other. They can indeed - if they learn the other one's language first. I know a number of Breton speakers who are learning Welsh, but they do indeed need to learn it to communicate. I treat claims of survival of traditional Cornish into the early 20th C with the same scepticism. People love tales of mutual comprehensibility (Breton and Welsh are a lot more different than, for example, Scots and English, and most English speakers struggle to parse Rabbie Burns) and language survival (my mother spoke Cornish and her uncle spoke Dalmatian* back in the 1920s, honest!)

*the extinct language, not the dog.

The only problem with Radio Cymru is Tommo. I cannot abide the man.

[ 13. December 2017, 14:26: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17720 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
andras
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# 2065

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It's true that we don't 'know' what Pictish was or sounded like; but from the very large number of P-Celtic placenames in Pictavia we can certainly make a reasonable supposition that it was very closely related to what I think of as Early Welsh, with a high degree of mutual comprehension between speakers.

If a Kentucky coal-miner and a Glaswegian engineer both speak dialects of English, then I'm not shy of saying that 'closely related' here means much the same as 'dialects of the same language'.

For such Brythonic place-names in the Pictish area I instance Ecclefechan, Paisley, Auchtermuchty, Perth, Peebles and the name of Bridei III's great fort of Dundurn ('the fort of the fist'); but there are so many more more that it would be pointless to list them here.

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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass

Posts: 491 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
Enoch
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# 14322

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As is well known, almost all the languages in Europe are related, and referred to as Info-European. The exceptions are Basque, Hungarian, Finnish, Saami and Maltese. Maltese is related to Arabic, Hebrew etc. Hungarian, Finnish and Saami come from further east. There were other languages that were unrelated but they are lost. A widespread current view is that the other languages spread through Europe with agriculture. Presumably in some places when people acquired agriculture, they carried on speaking what they spoke before. The Etruscans, in Tuscany, spoke one, but Basque is the only one that has survived to the present.

Because next to nothing is known about Pictish, there has been some conjecture that it might have been another of those. Like a lot of things that are impossible to reach any sensible conclusion about, people can choose to project onto Pictish what their imagination would like it to have been, whether like Welsh, Gaelic, or neither. Or we can accept that we just do not know, and probably never will.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Ecclefechan is from the Cumbric speaking part of Southern Scotland (could have been Rheged or Strathclyde; the boundaries are far from clear and doubtless shifted). Dundurn is I understand generally taken to be a Gaelic form, although the words in both are quite similar (Welsh Din(as), dwrn). Thing is we don't know if it's what Bridei called it.

That Pictish was P-Celtic is generally accepted; how closely related to Old Welsh is more in dispute. There may have been another Pictish language which may underlie the otherwise inscrutable Pictish inscriptions which may have been non-Indoeuropean.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17720 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
andras
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# 2065

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Sir John Rhys, of course - born not twenty miles from where I'm writing this - certainly thought that the Picts weren't Celts; I think he toyed with the idea that they were Etruscan or something equally unlikely, but I could be imagining that. But I don't think that view is at all tenable today, certainly as regards most of mainland Scotland. The far north may be a different question, and one about which I know absolutely nothing!

The question of what Bridei may have called his hill-fort is an interesting one, to which of course there's no final answer; it may well have had more than one name, just as the final battle between Northumbrian and Pictish forces was fought at a place variously called Llyn Garan and Nechtansmere.

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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass

Posts: 491 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged



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