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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Ghosts
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Although I have wondered about incidents such as the medium of Endor who supposedly raised Samuel's spirit, and the poltergeist who allegedly inhabited the rectory at Epworth during John Wesley's childhood, this is not a subject in which I have ever had much interest.
However, a recent story from a friend of ours has got me thinking.
She is a nurse in her forties with a bright, outgoing and sensible - not morbid - personality.
A few years ago, she took a period of annual leave while working at a geriatric institution.
On returning, she was walking down the corridor, when she greeted an old lady, a long-term resident who habitually sat near the door of her room so she could talk to passers-by.
This lady responded to the greeting with: "I've just come back to visit some people".
Since she was well into her nineties, our friend did not read anything into her words, but a little while later, when she mentioned to some other nurses that she had just seen and talked to old Mrs - , they said, "But she died a fortnight ago".
What is interesting is that our friend shows little concern with what "really" happened, but is far more intrigued with her own reaction to the experience.
She grew up in a strongly pentecostal/fundamentalist form of Christianity from which she is currently working to distance herself, and which taught that any experience of the supernatural other than Christianity is demonic, and she would have expected to find the experience frightening.
Instead, she found herself reacting to it at the cerebral level as strange, but at the emotional and visceral level as acceptable and unthreatening.
This post might result in just a sharing of our own and others' strange experiences, but if it should develop into a discussion of the psychology, theology and physics behind so-called "ghost" sightings (and sounds, smells, temperatures, etc) the Hostocracy might consider moving it to Purgatory.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
I don't know what such an experience as that would do to me. It would knock me around physically and mentally I'm sure. I find it frightening rather than comforting.
My initial belief is scepticism, mainly because it doesn't fit with my world view or personal religious beliefs. If a friend were to tell me of an experience, I guess I'd be more open.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I like these sorts of stories. Wish there was truth to them. While I've little doubt there are things humans don't know and perception is fallible ghosts are too obvious for the current era.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
I don't know whether ghosts (i.e., spirits of dead humans) exist. I do think people have ghostly experiences, whatever the causes.
I'm not fond of the idea of ghosts, for two reasons: 1) Eeeeeek! and 2) there's usually an accompanying belief that a spirit may be forced to remain, for various reasons. I don't like that.
I think that personalities, feelings, and events can leave imprints on a space. Strong emotion in a home, years of prayer in a place of worship, etc.
Even by a really strict interpretation of acceptable supernatural experiences, your friend's experience shouldn't be a huge theological problem, IMHO. At worst, it would just mean that the woman ghost was allowed to come back to check on some friends. "Communion of saints" is probably outside your friend's background; but the experience might be tucked into that category.
FWIW.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I think that personalities, feelings, and events can leave imprints on a space. Strong emotion in a home, years of prayer in a place of worship, etc.
I seem to recall something like this being suggested by Stafford Wright, who was evangelical and orthodox, in a Paternoster volume (titled,
I think,What is Man?) many years ago.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
Over the years I've slept in a number of supposedly haunted places, and neither seen nor felt anything out of the ordinary - but I was quite convinced that if I ever did, I'd be scared out of my wits.
And then, strangely, when back in the 1980s I did have that exact experience in my own home (1850's vintage) I neither felt frightened nor especially disturbed. It was just one of those things.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Kaplan--
I remembered something I read, long ago, and found an article on it:
"J.B. Phillips and the Ghost of C.S. Lewis" (Randal Rauser).
Christian writer and translator JB Phillips said he had the experience of CS Lewis, post death, showing up to talk to him. That section of Phillips' book is quoted. I don't know who blogger Randal Rauser is, but he wrote a pretty decent discussion of various possibilities.
I don't know the truth of it, but it might be useful in thinking through the topic.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
GK, yes, I remember now reading the the J.B. Phillips story, but had forgotten it until you cited it.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
And then, strangely, when back in the 1980s I did have that exact experience in my own home (1850's vintage) I neither felt frightened nor especially disturbed. It was just one of those things.
Do tell
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
I had forgotten that J, B Phillops things, though read of it years ago. No ghost in my life, but once, at least two decades ago now, a friend and I were descending the St. Rule's tower in the ruined cathedral in St. Andrews. it was lunch-time and at the foot of the stairs we met the official who wanted to lock up and go for his lunch. He asked if we were the last down. I assured him that we were. But my friend strongly disagreed. she had been lingering behind me on the descent, it being her first visit, peering through the slit windows etc. She maintained that she had stood aside to let a young man pass on his way up.
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
That one got way unfinished... (Maybe the ghost in the machine). Anyway, I knew I had met no one, and indeed when the attendant checked there was no one, but my friend was equally sure and could describe the young man in detail. I should say, that until changes were made at the top, and the tower was sometimes closed, there had been at least one student who had leapt during exam time.
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
A priest I know has a "deliverance ministry" and was often called in to "troubled" houses in his area. He did a talk on ghosts at Halloween for our works Christian fellowship. He reckoned that most ghosts were "imprints" left when something or someone had a strong connection with that place.
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
Posts: 3333 | From: Rhymney Valley, South Wales | Registered: Jan 2009
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andras
Shipmate
# 2065
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by andras:
And then, strangely, when back in the 1980s I did have that exact experience in my own home (1850's vintage) I neither felt frightened nor especially disturbed. It was just one of those things.
Do tell
But that's just it - there's nothing particular to tell, just an old lady who certainly shouldn't have been there, standing in our living room late one night, for perhaps ten seconds or so, and then she wasn't there. Nothing scarey about it at all - it didn't even bother me at the time.
Later enquiry actually gave me her name and some biographical details - it seems she was a widow and a former resident of the house, whose husband had once been a well-known writer - but I'd certainly never heard of her before that meeting, or whatever it was.
The fact that we'd been tearing down half of one wall to remove an old range and install a new fire may have some relevance - or it may not.
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God's on holiday.
(Why borrow a cat?)
Adrian Plass
Posts: 544 | From: Tregaron | Registered: Dec 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by St. Gwladys:
He reckoned that most ghosts were "imprints" left when something or someone had a strong connection with that place.
That is exactly what I have experienced, both with people and animals. It wasn't scary at all, more like peaceful and reassuring. But I don't believe in such things, which makes it very puzzling. I have therefore filed the experiences somewhere in my brain as 'unexplained' and left them there until further notice.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
... years of prayer in a place of worship ...
Yes.
I have no particular experiences to relate, but I like to think that churches and cathedrals (the older the better!) are inhabited by the (friendly) ghosts of all the saints and sinners who have worshipped there over the years, and who I hope are now looking benignly down on our liturgical efforts.
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I used to subscribe to the imprint theory; I don't believe people have soils which can exist without their bodies (or at least without their brains). However, I can't for the life of me see a possible mechanism for the "imprint" either, so I'm left not seeing how ghosts can actually exist. Having had experience of psychotic delusion (no, not in me), I do know the brain is endlessly creative and sometimes poor at telling when it has been engaging in creativity.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
I think there are a number of explanations for phsycic experiences. Mostly, I think they are valid and real, while not always what we think they are.
So some experiences are mental abberations - we make faces out of things that aren't faces. We remember things differently to how they actually happened, maybe with different people. Because that memory is how we understand things.
And once we have related a memory, we fix it more in our minds. And facts have to fit into our memories and our perception of the world. That is how we stay sane.
At the same time, I totally believe in the spiritual dimension. I believe that the physical is not all there is, that there is more and some of this "more" can explain a lot of the eperiences. The "imprint" of a person on a place can be very strong. The feeling of a person, and their relationship to a place is also important.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Cathscats
Shipmate
# 17827
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Posted
In my last parish there was a woman who was next thing to a Satanist, who could tell the history of a building when she stepped inside. She really could. She did not put this down to her own beliefs, but to a sensitivity she was born with. She liked talking to me, not because we were going to convince each other, but because at least I too believed that there is a spiritual dimension.
(She made her living by making soap in her kitchen, emblazoned with weird and wonderful symbols, which she sold. But from time to time she made a cake or two with a cross on it, which she gave to me!)
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"...damp hands and theological doubts - the two always seem to go together..." (O. Douglas, "The Setons")
Posts: 176 | From: Central Highlands | Registered: Sep 2013
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Rossweisse
High Church Valkyrie
# 2349
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Posted
I’ve had a couple of experiences in which some information I couldn’t have known any other way was transmitted to me.
The most recent encounter was not quite two years ago. My father died at about 5 a.m. in early February. My older daughter and I had been planning to drive across the state to see him the next day; we decided to make the trip and deal with some things.
I was going to pick her up at about 7 a.m., but I awoke at 5 to my father telling me that we should go earlier to avoid the snow. There was no snow in the forecast, but the Pater was insistent. So I called my daughter (who works in a bakery and was awake) and asked if we could go at 6. She agreed, and I did.
There was indeed snow, and it was getting messy. We got out before rush hour, and there wasn’t any in the direction we were going, so we were okay. It was just one more kindness from the best of men.
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I'm not dead yet.
Posts: 15117 | From: Valhalla | Registered: Feb 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
The oddest experience I know of is a cherished, though strange, story in my family history. It happened one night in 1942 when the passenger ferry on which my great-grandfather was second engineer was sunk by a German submarine.
Two important pieces of context for this story: first, this happened in Newfoundland, where the idea of seeing a dead person's "token" at the time of their death in a faraway place is a big part of local folklore (likely due to the prevalence of fishermen being lost at sea; lots of stories of them appearing in their wives' kitchens at the moment the ship sank).
But second, and superseding that as far as I can see, this happened in a Seventh-day Adventist family, where the teaching that "the dead know not anything" was, especially at that time, very strongly emphasized as one of the things that separated us from other Christians. Any stories of ghostly appearances would have been written off as hallucination at best, the work of demons at worst. So my then-12-year-old aunt, to whom this happened, would have been raised in a subculture of very strongly NOT believing in ghosts, which to me tends to work against the idea that we see what we're culturally conditioned to see.
Anyway, on the night the ship sank, my aunt woke up in the middle of the night to see a man who looked like her grandfather, dressed in her grandfather's clothes, sitting at the foot of her bed. Everyone old enough to remember this story insists that she reported this the next morning, well before they had heard about the sinking and definitely before it was confirmed that he was among the dead.
In recounting this story my aunt (now in her 80s) has always said that she didn't think it was her grandfather himself who was there, but only someone/something that looked like him, because her grandfather always made her feel safe and loved, whereas this vision frightened her. It seems to be an unshakeable part of family lore that this unsettling visitation happened that night, probably about the time he died. This memory has always sat rather uneasily with the fact that still, nobody in my family (either those who are still Seventh-day Adventists, or those who have left the faith and are more or less agnostic) believes in ghosts. Everyone just files it under "things that don't make sense, but nevertheless happened."
[ 21. January 2018, 17:37: Message edited by: Trudy Scrumptious ]
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Cathscats:
She made her living by making soap in her kitchen, emblazoned with weird and wonderful symbols, which she sold. But from time to time she made a cake or two with a cross on it, which she gave to me!
I hope for the sake of your cleanliness and your palate that she never confused the two.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Mind you, not long after she diagnosed with cancer, my wife had a kind of 'waking dream' in which her late father - 10 years dead - walked into our bedroom and leant forward to hug her saying, 'I've been waiting for you ...'
I was awakened by her bursting into tears.
She doesn't put it down to anything supernatural but a particularly vivid dream brought on by the circumstances, but she said it was uncannily and almost tangibly real.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
I'm a reluctant cynic. I'd love to believe - at least partly - in the idea of ghosts and stuff. But considering that someone suffering from a bad urine infection (or Charles Bonnet Syndrome) can successfully hallucinate something which is convincingly real, to the point where they're arguing with you about the 'reality' of what they're looking at, it's hard not to attribute most ghostly visitations and supernatural phenomena to too much protein in the blood or the brain's wiring going a little berserk for some, perhaps temporary reason. To say nothing about lucid dreaming or mild psychotic episodes.
We just don't know enough about the mind.
HOWEVER. I once knew an old ex-World War II soldier who very undramatically would relate his encounter with an apparition while he was on guard duty over a submarine, during war-time. One evening he bumped into a certain uniformed sailor/submariner type wandering around the area he was patrolling and had a short conversation. When he told this to the next watch they told him this was impossible as the person he described had died in action a fortnight previously. He could ascertain who the person was by description and conversation - something he couldn't have invented; and the guy he spoke to, he never saw again.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
A few years ago I was at a conference centre in an old house in the West Country doing a course in mediation (spelling important!).
So there we were discussing a case study, a group of twelve of us not in any kind of meditative (spelling important again!) state but with our analytical brains firmly switched on, when we heard from the floor above the us the sound of children running as in a game....
We all heard it and none of us had an explanation.
I still don't! It wasn't scary just fascinating. We mentioned it to the staff team at the centre and they told us that people had reported all kinds of unusual sounds and apparitions in the house and that they had called in a priest who had prayed and told them that "buildings can have memory". At some point in its history the building had housed a group of children....
something about places/ spaces holding memory really appeals to me.
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I don't suppose it was rats, or other animals in the roof.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
No it couldn't have been creatures as we were on the ground floor and sound was directly above us in the corridor of the first floor where the bedrooms were. So not in or on the roof.
It really did sound like a group of children running.
Who knows what it was?!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Also, I know what rats sound like as I HATE them and will never forget the invasion of rats we had in a previous house we lived in and I woke one night to hear them cavorting in the eaves of our roof... ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
[ 21. January 2018, 21:12: Message edited by: MrsBeaky ]
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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jedijudy
Organist of the Jedi Temple
# 333
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Posted
Our family seems to see a lot of unexplained sights. My mother has especially been "blessed" in that way.
When I was fourteen years old, my ten year old, very beloved (by the whole family) cousin died. A month later, our Grandfather died. It was a heart wrenching time for the family.
Sometime within the next few months, my mother was cleaning in our home, and noticed two people walking beside our house. It was my Grandpa and cousin holding hands, and going to see our dog who was very excited and pulling against her lead to see them! Our dog knew them both very well, and loved them like she loved us. My mom didn't want to scare Grandpa and my cousin away, so she peeked through the windows so they didn't see her. I suppose they knew she was there, anyway!
Many, many years later, Mom shared that story with my aunt who took comfort knowing that her little daughter and her father were happy together.
Now me, I'm not thrilled to see unexplained sights. ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.
Posts: 18017 | From: 'Twixt the 'Glades and the Gulf | Registered: Aug 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
A few years ago I had raced to the Post Office to catch the last collection at 5pm. Our church and adjacent graveyard are in the middle of the village, and I was trying to decide whether to go straight back home or whether I should nip into the shop for bread / milk whatever. I was on the pavement next to the graveyard wall and I could see a stout middle aged woman in a blue short sleeved dress kneeling on one of the graves arranging a large bunch of white flowers. I decided to head home, but then thought that as I didn't recognise the woman I should ask if she was a visitor, and offer to let her into the church. (I'm a keyholder.)
She wasn't there. I was sure she couldn't have left the graveyard without me seeing her leave, so I went in. I thought she might be in the small walled enclosure in which the local "big family" were buried. She wasn't there. I was increasingly puzzled as to where she was, but concluded she must have left without me seeing her.
I thought I'd see which grave she had been visiting and headed for the spot I'd seen her. There were no white flowers on any of the graves.
I'm still baffled.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
A few years ago I had raced to the Post Office to catch the last collection at 5pm. Our church and adjacent graveyard are in the middle of the village, and I was trying to decide whether to go straight back home or whether I should nip into the shop for bread / milk whatever. I was on the pavement next to the graveyard wall and I could see a stout middle aged woman in a blue short sleeved dress kneeling on one of the graves arranging a large bunch of white flowers. I decided to head home, but then thought that as I didn't recognise the woman I should ask if she was a visitor, and offer to let her into the church. (I'm a keyholder.)
She wasn't there. I was sure she couldn't have left the graveyard without me seeing her leave, so I went in. I thought she might be in the small walled enclosure in which the local "big family" were buried. She wasn't there. I was increasingly puzzled as to where she was, but concluded she must have left without me seeing her.
I thought I'd see which grave she had been visiting and headed for the spot I'd seen her. There were no white flowers on any of the graves.
I'm still baffled.
She was nicking the flowers and legged it over the wall ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 22. January 2018, 12:41: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Also, I know what rats sound like as I HATE them and will never forget the invasion of rats we had in a previous house we lived in and I woke one night to hear them cavorting in the eaves of our roof...
We currently have squirrels in the roof of the church and it sounds like a gymkhana up there!
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Anselmina: quote:
I'm a reluctant cynic. I'd love to believe - at least partly - in the idea of ghosts and stuff. But considering that someone suffering from a bad urine infection (or Charles Bonnet Syndrome) can successfully hallucinate something which is convincingly real, to the point where they're arguing with you about the 'reality' of what they're looking at, it's hard not to attribute most ghostly visitations and supernatural phenomena to too much protein in the blood or the brain's wiring going a little berserk for some, perhaps temporary reason. To say nothing about lucid dreaming or mild psychotic episodes.
But then you have Mrs. Beaky's story of twelve ordinary adults hearing unexplained sounds all at once. Of course, it's possible that the staff likes to play with visitors and runs a loud recording of children's sounds above meetings. Rather unprofessional but possible.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Problem is you're comparing unlikely explanations with the unlikely explanation that the spirits of dead children are playing tag, or some currently unknown "recording" took place in the past and is now being played back. It's the Prosecutors' Fallacy.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Problem is you're comparing unlikely explanations with the unlikely explanation that the spirits of dead children are playing tag, or some currently unknown "recording" took place in the past and is now being played back. It's the Prosecutors' Fallacy.
So what is your likely explanation?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've come to the conclusion over the years that I'm probably less psychic than other people. These sort of things don't seem to happen to me.
All the same, things that other people who I've found generally credible have told me, make it very difficult to discount the possibility that some mysterious things do happen. If I can't explain them, or if they don't fit life, the universe and everything as I understand it, it doesn't follow that my informant must be wrong, lying or hallucinating.
Taking the line that such things cannot be because ....... is intellectually broadly comparable to saying that scripture must be construed so as to fit in with Wayne Grudem's (or whoever's) theology, irrespective of what it objectively appears to be saying.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I only threw out there the prank explanation to round things out, not to espouse it. I tend to like the place memory idea.
@Karl: Liberal Backslider- I didn't mention statistics as would be used in the Prosecutors' Fallacy. Scatter-shot of strange explanations seems more like a legal defense move to sow "reasonable doubt" than a prosecutorial strategy. Again: What do you think is happening in a story like Mrs. Beaky's?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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MaryLouise
Shipmate
# 18697
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Posted
Reading through this most enjoyable thread, it strikes me how culturally determined our interpretations of mysterious phenomena are.
One paranormal experience that intrigues me is the supposed UFO sighting at Ariel School in Ruwa, Zimbabwe, in 1994. Approximately 62 children aged between eight and 12 reported seeing a UFO and ‘strange beings’ during their morning break and the incident has been fairly well documented insofar as something like this can be documented.
The children saw large silver objects land about 100m from the edge of the playing fields and ran to see what they were. They all reported seeing two small beings encased in tight-fitting shiny black clothing. The small beings were described as having large oval-shaped eyes and shoulder-length black hair. One figure stood beside the ‘ship’ while the other inspected the top of the craft. Some children thought the silver craft looked like a kind of water monster because it undulated on the top. The strange beings re-entered the ship and it flew off at great speed. They were shaken and crying, ran to find a teacher.
Some parents did not believe the children’s story, but there was consensus that something odd and upsetting had happened. A BBC television crew were first on the scene to follow it up. In November 1994, Harvard professor of psychiatry and ufologist John E. Mack visited the school and filmed interviews with the children.
The children from Western backgrounds immediately framed what they had seen as a UFO or spaceship with an alien and later had nightmares about abductions.
Children from Shona and Ndebele backgrounds thought the strange beings were zvikwambo, or tokoloshes – the malicious trouble-making goblins of Shona and Ndebele folklore – and burst into tears, fearing they would be eaten. What was interesting, though, is that their drawings of what they had seen were very similar. All the students came from relatively wealthy families (tuition at Ariel School was expensive) and most of them emigrated within a few years as Zimbabwe’s economy collapsed.
I met one of the witnesses a couple of years ago (he now lives in Vancouver) and he said it was still a vivid and inexplicable memory. His key impression was that the creatures were not human, not male or female, more like shapes operated by AI, and that they seemed unable to see or hear the children: the ‘aliens’ paid no attention to this large group watching them and their metallic vehicle. He said they could have been clumps of grass or rocks for all the aliens noticed, there was no shared sentient consciousness at all.
One of his young black schoolfriends was taken by his parents to visit a spirit medium or nyanga, who consulted with the ancestors and said that the visitors had been here before but existed on a plane between life and death and not really present, something of a mirage from the future. They were like ghostly ngozi (avenging spirits) at war, but not with humans here.
I do think the generic UFO interpretation was pushed quite hard, but it’s hard to imagine what else might have been happening.
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“As regards plots I find real life no help at all. Real life seems to have no plots.”
-- Ivy Compton-Burnett
Posts: 646 | From: Cape Town | Registered: Nov 2016
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Inasmuch as there might be any rational explanation for this kind of thing, I don't hold to the "imprints on places" one. I think any explanation is liable to reside in people rather than places, and be something along the lines of Jung's collective unconscious.
As far as people claiming to know the history of places and the like goes, I've met several people with some degree of mental illness who I'd describe as preternaturally aware: apparently processing much more information than most people from their surroundings, picking up clues almost nobody else would, and very quickly assembling them into plausible theories which every so often are right - rather like a really good cold reader (think jury selector Fitch in the film version of The Runaway Jury), except that they are not doing it consciously.
[ 23. January 2018, 05:26: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Problem is you're comparing unlikely explanations with the unlikely explanation that the spirits of dead children are playing tag, or some currently unknown "recording" took place in the past and is now being played back. It's the Prosecutors' Fallacy.
So what is your likely explanation?
There isn't one. Whatever happened is unlikely. My point is that I don't see why, out of many unlikely explanations, I'd pick the supernatural unlikely explanation, given that we don't even know if that explanation is even possible
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Problem is you're comparing unlikely explanations with the unlikely explanation that the spirits of dead children are playing tag, or some currently unknown "recording" took place in the past and is now being played back. It's the Prosecutors' Fallacy.
The priest that the owners of the conference centre called in did not seem to have suggested that it was the spirits of dead children but rather that the building itself held the memory of the sound of their playing.
Which is of course impossible to prove but I still find the idea appealing!
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
HOWEVER. I once knew an old ex-World War II soldier who very undramatically would relate his encounter with an apparition while he was on guard duty over a submarine, during war-time. One evening he bumped into a certain uniformed sailor/submariner type wandering around the area he was patrolling and had a short conversation. When he told this to the next watch they told him this was impossible as the person he described had died in action a fortnight previously. He could ascertain who the person was by description and conversation - something he couldn't have invented; and the guy he spoke to, he never saw again.
There are some stories about the Battle of Mons, in WW I, I think. There's something about that in a book called "Many Mansions".
Another, though non-military story: A guy named Josh Slocum sailed around the world by himself. At one point, he became very ill. He couldn't manage the boat, and had to be in bed. He reported seeing someone at the ship's wheel. I think the person even smiled at him.
Not claiming anything about these. I've just come across stories, from time to time.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
quote:
Originally posted by Anselmina:
HOWEVER. I once knew an old ex-World War II soldier who very undramatically would relate his encounter with an apparition while he was on guard duty over a submarine, during war-time. One evening he bumped into a certain uniformed sailor/submariner type wandering around the area he was patrolling and had a short conversation. When he told this to the next watch they told him this was impossible as the person he described had died in action a fortnight previously. He could ascertain who the person was by description and conversation - something he couldn't have invented; and the guy he spoke to, he never saw again.
There are some stories about the Battle of Mons, in WW I, I think. There's something about that in a book called "Many Mansions".
Another, though non-military story: A guy named Josh Slocum sailed around the world by himself. At one point, he became very ill. He couldn't manage the boat, and had to be in bed. He reported seeing someone at the ship's wheel. I think the person even smiled at him.
Not claiming anything about these. I've just come across stories, from time to time.
Slocum reckoned he saw the navigator of the Pinta - knew that when I read his book nearly 30 years ago that would come in useful!
However, by his own admission it might have had more to do with extreme lack of sleep, hunger, and physical exhaustion!
Mons is a funny one - most of what was reported about the "Angel(s) of Mons" was very clearly propaganda, and some of it was actually fiction/short stories which then got back absorbed into the narrative of what had happened by the newspapers. Nevertheless, it does seem that some soldiers *did* think they'd seen something.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
While I'm here, I'll tell you my experience (aside from the usual 4 members of a family in different locations waking independently at the time of another family member's death - which seems to happen so often to so many people....).
When I passed out of Dartmouth, I and a few others were staying an extra night at the end of term because the following day we were going to do the sword arch outside a church for a friend's wedding.
I had to shift cabins for the extra night for some reason, from D block to A Block, which is at the front of the college overlooking the parade ground.
Anyway, I woke at about 3 in the morning... the walls of my cabin had gone and the whole corridor I was on had been replaced with one big room with rows and rows of beds. There was much bustle going on, in silence (like I was watching a film - there was no awareness of me) with teenage boys rushing about flinging shirts, etc, into sea chests. I closed my eyes, and looked again. Normally this would be the cue to say "and everything had gone", but it hadn't.
The next time I shut and opened my eyes it was all back to normal, the walls were there, and I was in my little cabin.
I was probably dreaming, but I didn't know until afterwards that it had once all been one huge dormitory. I later saw a still photo of what I had seen the "film" of - years after I experienced it.
Part of me is convinced I somehow "saw" the mobilisation of the college in 1914.
My mother had Irish gypsy blood and "the sight." Personally, I've always been rather more (semi-securely) anchored in letting things rest with the thought that there are a lot of strange things between heaven and earth and we're better off not looking too deeply into them.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
betjemaniac--
You repeatedly said "cabin". I'm confused. Was this some sort of ship?
Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
betjemaniac--
You repeatedly said "cabin". I'm confused. Was this some sort of ship?
Thx.
Naval bases are treated as "stone frigates." So even in a building you have decks, cabins, a galley, etc. Dartmouth is the British equivalent of Annapolis.
I know we're supposed to post explanations on here, but in the British navy in particular there's a whole other language which you slip into effortlessly.
Most of the time I speak normal English now, but I still 10 years after leaving get funny looks occasionally at work when I realise I've accidentally called a bin a spitkid, or the stairs a ladder for example.
It just comes out like the most natural thing in the world.
[ 23. January 2018, 09:27: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
She was nicking the flowers and legged it over the wall [Biased]
I think I might have been more startled by a stout middle aged woman in a frock leaping over the wall clutching a bunch of flowers than I was by the idea that I had seen someone who wasn't there.
Something that I have wondered since; had I not tried to go to speak to the woman, but had just idly observed her and carried on, I would have thought nothing of it. Wearing a dress seemed over-formal, but not to the point of incongruity. It was the dress which made me think she might be a visitor on a "special" visit to the grave, who might appreciate being given access to the church.
I wonder if I pass other people who, if I tried to speak to them, would also turn out to be figments of my imagination?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Problem is you're comparing unlikely explanations with the unlikely explanation that the spirits of dead children are playing tag, or some currently unknown "recording" took place in the past and is now being played back. It's the Prosecutors' Fallacy.
The priest that the owners of the conference centre called in did not seem to have suggested that it was the spirits of dead children but rather that the building itself held the memory of the sound of their playing.
Which is of course impossible to prove but I still find the idea appealing!
That was the second possibility which I mentioned, but I am not sure why I should accept it, given that no known mechanism for it to occur is known.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Sparrow
Shipmate
# 2458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
I know we're supposed to post explanations on here, but in the British navy in particular there's a whole other language which you slip into effortlessly.
Most of the time I speak normal English now, but I still 10 years after leaving get funny looks occasionally at work when I realise I've accidentally called a bin a spitkid, or the stairs a ladder for example.
It just comes out like the most natural thing in the world.
So what is "COP" on a menu?
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For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present nor things to come, nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Posts: 3149 | From: Bottom right hand corner of the UK | Registered: Mar 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
... years of prayer in a place of worship ...
Yes.
I have no particular experiences to relate, but I like to think that churches and cathedrals (the older the better!) are inhabited by the (friendly) ghosts of all the saints and sinners who have worshipped there over the years, and who I hope are now looking benignly down on our liturgical efforts.
I'm not keen on the idea of the dear departed (ghosts or otherwise) 'looking down' on us, not least because many churches up and down Britain have been converted into homes, restaurants, nightclubs, mosques, etc. I can imagine many a prim Victorian or Edwardian ghost finding the situation utterly perplexing!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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