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» Ship of Fools   » Special interest discussion   » The Circus   » The game that batters: the rugby thread (Page 14)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: The game that batters: the rugby thread
Jamat
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It is an eg of how the officials have dictated how rugby has developed. It is inconsistent given that in every other situation where a side puts players between the ball carrier and the defender it is called obstruction.
In fairness, they do not allow supporters to join a maul in front of a ball carrier nor can they break off and rejoin, that is penalised as truck and trailer. The issue for me is that they also penalise the pulling down of a maul and that gives almost no defensive options.
For mine it seems to be a general play reinvention of the scrum but where the ball is off the ground. If a defending pack can halt a maul they do get the scrum at least but in a maul it is possible to conceal the ball and confuse opposition.
I actually get more miffed with scrum penalties and resets. The officials could sort this by insisting the ball is immediately used as they do with slow rucks.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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rolyn
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Typically bruising encounter between England an Wales in progress. I wouldn't want to call it even though England are currently leading.

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Imaginary Friend

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It'll be a tense last ten minutes, I'll wager.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
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Sioni Sais
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If Wales were playing a more disciplined side they would be beaten by now.

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Sioni Sais
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My word, Wales are they fighting for it! They are down to iron rations behind the scrum but they keep England out. Amazing stuff.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Imaginary Friend

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Crap. We had that and we threw it away. Gutting.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Crap. We had that and we threw it away. Gutting.

We kicked quite a lot of it away! Hubris played a part too, especially after that spate of Welsh injuries when England, I think, thought they only had to be there to win.

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Albertus
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[Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me] [Killing me]
WA-LES! WA-LES! WA-LES! [Overused] [Overused] [Overused]

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marzipan
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Yay Wales! Was a good match, Wales were getting a bit sloppy before half time but they managed to get it together in the end. Though how much of Wales's squad will be not injured by the end of October I'm not certain...

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formerly cheesymarzipan.
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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Hubris played a part too, especially after that spate of Welsh injuries when England, I think, thought they only had to be there to win.

Yep, did the hard work then just relaxed and ..... Bish-bash-bosch , result goes to the away team.

Seen it before, dare say we'll see it again. Mind you questions will soon arise as to how far England are actually going to get in this tournament.

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L'organist
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Mae Duw* We won!

The children are ecstatic and have a massive flag ready to hoist first thing in the morning.

It was lovely to see Warren Gatland jumping for joy. Also good to see that Prince William knows the national anthem - no Redwood he!

WAL-ES WAL-ES WAL-ES
[Overused] [Yipee] [Overused] [Yipee] [Overused] [Yipee]

* there is a God

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Leorning Cniht
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:

WAL-ES WAL-ES WAL-ES

The 'L' is in the first syllable in your way of speaking? Really?
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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Crap. We had that and we threw it away. Gutting.

Why on earth did they not take the draw?
Unbelievable decisions by England in last 20 mins!

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Gamaliel
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It's the way it's chanted in rugby stadia, Leorning Cniht, not the way it would be said in normal speech.

TypicAlly, in Welsh accENts, the stress is on the penulTIMate sylLAble ...hence the sing-song effect.

But no, we don't say 'WAL-ES' unless it's for emphasis - but thinking about it, Wales tends to be pronounced more like 'Way-els' rather than 'wails' - but only slightly more like that. It sounds like 'whales' for the most part - and even very posh people here would no longer pronounce the 'h' in that.

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rolyn
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Sounds like England have got to beat Australia to stay in it.

No pressure then [Help]

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Imaginary Friend

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There's always a chance that Wales, the perennial bottlers that they are, will lose against Fiji or Uruguay. [Biased]

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Brian Clough

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Albertus
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Not Uruguay- that was last week. But yes, it would be just like us to go down to Fiji now. And of course there's the little matter fo Australia, too.
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Sioni Sais
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Quite a few of the Welsh people I spoke to at church this morning said that they are worried about Fiji. They will be OK though, even if Tipuric has to start at wing. Come to thing of it he'd be just right to mark that big guy who kicks for goal for Fiji.

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L'organist
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posted by Leorning Cniht
quote:
The 'L' is in the first syllable in your way of speaking? Really?
No, I don't think so (now I've had the chance to listen who knows?) but then I usually think of my country by its name in the language, Cymru.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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L'organist
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posted by Imaginary Friend
quote:
There's always a chance that Wales, the perennial bottlers that they are, will lose against Fiji or Uruguay.
1. We've already played Uruguay: we scored 8 tries and ran out winners 54-9.

2. Bottlers? Are you thinking of Wembley 1999, or the Six Nations in 2005, 2009, 2011, 2012 or maybe 2013? If you look at the last 10 years of the 6 Nations you'll see that honours are even.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
posted by Imaginary Friend
quote:
There's always a chance that Wales, the perennial bottlers that they are, will lose against Fiji or Uruguay.
1. We've already played Uruguay: we scored 8 tries and ran out winners 54-9.

2. Bottlers? Are you thinking of Wembley 1999, or the Six Nations in 2005, 2009, 2011, 2012 or maybe 2013? If you look at the last 10 years of the 6 Nations you'll see that honours are even.

Given your injury list your guys have been awesome so far.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
2. Bottlers?

On the wind-up mate. Nice to see someone bit. [Biased]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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Ugh. Yet another high pressure situation under which England crumble. Lancaster has pulled off some amazing one-off wins in his tenure - being the only Northern Hemisphere team to beat the All Blacks in the last 6 years comes to mind. But, but, but, when push comes to shove in the high pressure games, six nations deciders for example, England come up short time and again.

I think Robshaw's shown that he doesn't have "it" when it comes to captaincy, whatever "it" is. Yet again a tight call is made between kicking for points or pressing for a try. Yet again, the "wrong" decision is made. (Who knows if the kick would have gone over; all we know is that kicking for the corner didn't work). Good captains have a knack of making the right call in that sort of situation. Robshaw has shown he doesn't have that knack: ergo...

Captaincy can be changed. What can't be changed so easily is Lancaster's seeming obsession with taking players off the field who are playing well - all of Dan Cole, Joe Marler, Tom Youngs and Sam Burgess were taken off for "tactical" reasons. All were playing well. Even Youngs!

Lose against Australia (50-50 game I reckon) and we're out. In that situation I think Lancaster's also out.

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Albertus
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Heard Will Carling on BBCR4 this morning saying that Robshaw should have gone for the points rather than the chance of a win. Carling, for all that he's a figure from the past, encapsulates so much that many of us loathe about English rugby culture and so that comment came as no surprise. Going for the corner was brave and sporting and exciting and Robshaw deserves credit for it. If it had succeeeded everyone would now be saying what a good decision it was.

[ 28. September 2015, 09:50: Message edited by: Albertus ]

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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Well, Carling or not, I still think it was the wrong decision in retrospect. My point from my earlier post was that over time captains should get the knack of making the correct call (i.e. the call that works) in those high pressure situations. Robshaw did not make the right call, and rarely seems to.

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L'organist
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Yes, it was the wrong decision - but it wasn't the choice to go for the corner that did the damage but the call to shorten the lineout. A longer lineout would have meant a much longer Welsh line to be defended: taking the shortened option immediately raised the possibility of the receiver, plus any other England players immediately involved, being bundled into touch. Which is exactly what happened and meant that, the clock having just turned red, Biggar could boot the ball into the stands.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Heard Will Carling on BBCR4 this morning saying that Robshaw should have gone for the points rather than the chance of a win. Carling, for all that he's a figure from the past, encapsulates so much that many of us loathe about English rugby culture and so that comment came as no surprise. Going for the corner was brave and sporting and exciting and Robshaw deserves credit for it. If it had succeeeded everyone would now be saying what a good decision it was.

It's always good to compare and contrast the England centre partnership from that era nowadays. An RFU tie and blazer really suits Will Carling who appears stuck in the 1990's (if not the 1950's) while Jerry Guscott actually appears to understand rugby as it is played now.

Unless England pull something out of the bag, such as a win against Australia and at least a semi-final place Lancaster is going to have to think long and hard about the composition of his team. England didn't lose because of one bad decision late on, but because they gave away seven kickable penalties which Dan Biggar didn't miss. Many of them were for ruck and maul offences which were usually due to Wales being first to the breakdown, such that England had to infringe in an attempt to get the ball or slow it down. That in turn wasn't helped by England playing without a genuine #7, which to my mind puts Robshaw's position in the team in doubt.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Sandemaniac
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Do I recall right that, in the Carling era, England once won the Five Nations and didn't actually score a try until they already had the tournament in the bag?

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
An RFU tie and blazer really suits Will Carling...

Which is a bit ironic, considering his famous words about fifty seven old farts.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
An RFU tie and blazer really suits Will Carling...

Which is a bit ironic, considering his famous words about fifty seven old farts.
If you can't beat'em, join'em.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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Hmm, have just rewatched these highlights of the autumn international against Australia last year. If England get that scoreline, I'll be happy. Potentially not that many changes (for England) from the side that won last time they met.

My starting XV for Australia (assuming all are fit...) would be

1 - Marler
2 - Youngs
3 - Wilson(!)
4 - Launchbury
5 - Lawes
6 - Wood
7 - Robshaw (c)
8 - Morgan

9 - Youngs
10 - Ford

11 - May
12 - Slade
13 - Joseph
14 - Watson
15 - Brown

Bench: Vunipola, Webber, Cole, Parling, Easter(!), Care(!), Farrell, Burgess

I don't think we can go in to win by grinding out a victory through penalties; we have to score tries, so has to be a 10-12-13 of Ford-Slade-Joseph.

A bit harsh to drop Cole to the bench maybe, but Wilson is a scrum specialist and we need to be dominant there - not sure whether Vunipola would be a better scrum option than Marler, probably not.

I think I'd want the cooler heads of Easter and Burgess ready on the bench to bring a bit of sense in a close finish. Also, why not bring a bit of flair in Care over the pretty predictable Wigglesworth?

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Sioni Sais
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I feel rather differently about it. We can win by grinding out penalties but we have to be a lot smarter, especially at the breakdown. That will be difficult because in David Pocock and Michael Hooper Australia have two flank forwards quicker than any of ours. Pocock in particular is an outstanding operator. It's probably best not even to compete all the time, and concentrate on stopping the man behind the line when they break.

I'd start with Parling and Launchbury too. They work really well together and are practically the same size which is a good thing for locks in the scrum. Lawes may be bigger and stronger but I don't think he's any better and the others put in more tackles although they make fewer spectacular hits than Lawes. He would be a good option at about 55 minutes though.

I agree that Care has flair but right now he is out of form. Ben Youngs was having an outstanding game, but like others I reckon he was taken off when lancaster thought England had the game in the bag.

I'm really undecided about the centres. I'd like to play Burgess aand Joseph but I'm not sure about Big Sam as a playmaker.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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Yep, breakdown we're way off the Aussies so we have to be super smart and only give away penalties if we absolutely have to to prevent a try scoring situation.

I can see Burgess/Joseph having a good balance, but you'd want Ford as your flyhalf not Farrell. If you're only taking one playmaker, you want to use your best. Equally, if Tuilagi was in the squad you'd think about playing Tuilagi/Joseph. Both are players that the opposition worry about and both can turn a game.

I think Burgess is so good on the offload (both giving and receiving as it were) that he makes a pretty good foil to Joseph. Slade on the bench?

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L'organist
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I hope the Stop Paloma Faith petition gets somewhere soon - that appalling caterwauling at the ad breaks is driving me nuts [Mad]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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Oh, it's her! I wondered why I didn't like it...

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I hope the Stop Paloma Faith petition gets somewhere soon - that appalling caterwauling at the ad breaks is driving me nuts [Mad]

Here's something the English and the Welsh can agree on. Not that it's much of a song in the first place.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Yes, it was the wrong decision - but it wasn't the choice to go for the corner that did the damage but the call to shorten the lineout. A longer lineout would have meant a much longer Welsh line to be defended: taking the shortened option immediately raised the possibility of the receiver, plus any other England players immediately involved, being bundled into touch. Which is exactly what happened and meant that, the clock having just turned red, Biggar could boot the ball into the stands.

That short lineout, whether Wales read or not I duuno, just looked like a pathetic schoolboy rugby blunder.
We can but hope England forget all about that against the Aussies. Only a return to top-class professional rugby is going to produce an England win on Saturday.

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Yes, it was the wrong decision - but it wasn't the choice to go for the corner that did the damage but the call to shorten the lineout. A longer lineout would have meant a much longer Welsh line to be defended: taking the shortened option immediately raised the possibility of the receiver, plus any other England players immediately involved, being bundled into touch. Which is exactly what happened and meant that, the clock having just turned red, Biggar could boot the ball into the stands.

That short lineout, whether Wales read or not I duuno, just looked like a pathetic schoolboy rugby blunder.
We can but hope England forget all about that against the Aussies. Only a return to top-class professional rugby is going to produce an England win on Saturday.

Australia is beatable in set piece and vulnerable in the tight 5.They just lost one of their best in Skelton. If England are not really tight and especially if they kick away possession Australia will hurt them.
If I was Lancaster I'd have good tight forwards on my bench. I'd also start Burgess as he is as good as anyone in an arm wrestle and will be like having an extra tightie. Defence and treasuring possession are the keys for England. I think grind up, play for penalties and kick the points and they will do it.
I do have doubts about Robshaw's decision making after the Wales debacle.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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L'organist
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It has just been announced that Lancaster has left Burgess out of the England team to play Australia.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Jamat
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Sounds like trouble 't mill

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Cod
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quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
Do I recall right that, in the Carling era, England once won the Five Nations and didn't actually score a try until they already had the tournament in the bag?

AG

I don't doubt it, despite them having players like Guscott and Underwood in the backs. It was very frustrating to watch.
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Sioni Sais
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England's team to face Australia. This is the side we need but we have to be a lot smarter than against Wales, although it always looks odd when your locks are more mobile than your back row! Burgess at about the 55 minute mark could be just the job.

For today however - C'mon Fiji!

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Jamat
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Wales' great run continues!

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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L'organist
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I wouldn't put it quite like that, but at least we didn't slip up on that particular banana skin.

Our players looked knackered beyond sense by the end - thank goodness we've got 8 days before we face Australia.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I wouldn't put it quite like that, but at least we didn't slip up on that particular banana skin.

Our players looked knackered beyond sense by the end - thank goodness we've got 8 days before we face Australia.

Wales missed a load of tackles (the stats showed 25 missed with a few minutes to go) and had a harder time in the scrum than they did against England. Dan Lydiate saved the day at least three times and Gareth Davies is doing a great job at scrum half. It really was a day for men pretending not to be hurt for eighty minutes.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Face it, there is something slightly skewed in the number of rest days that teams get between matches. England had 7 clear rest days between their first and second matches and have 6 clear days between their second and third, and third and fourth.

If Wales looked knackered its because they had five clear days between matches 1 and 2 and then only four between 2 and 3; granted they'll get 8 clear days now before facing Australia, but over the whole cycle they still end up with fewer rest days than the English.

As for the Australians, they've had/will have 3, 5 and 6 clear rest days between their matches.

It can't be viewed as fair that one team should get 19 clear rest days in the Pool stage while another only has 14 - and how strange that the team to benefit most is from the host nation in the so-called Pool of Death.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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There's been a lot written about this but I'm sure the host nation has always had a better schedule. It's worse for some sides (eg, Wales, Ireland and Scotland) because they have fewer top level sides to provide the necessary depth although they are very definitely tier 1 sides.

I'm sure I could work out a schedule that would give each team at least six days between fixtures and possibly fewer days with no fixtures, during the group stages at any rate.

[ 02. October 2015, 09:09: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Sioni Sais
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New Zealand scored seven tries against a heroic Georgia team who gave them a hard time at the scrums and forced a lot of handling errors.

It looks like more of the teams outside the Six Nations/Southern Hemisphere Championship are getting closer to the Big Ten. They seem to be fitter, bigger, stronger and better coached and a few need only to improve their attack to be more of a threat to the top teams.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Jamat
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# 11621

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The ABs looked like a team of individuals. they don't have what Wales has.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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rolyn
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Just watched the first half of England v Australia [Eek!]

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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