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Source: (consider it) Thread: The game that batters: the rugby thread
Sioni Sais
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That was one hell of a game, and I think the loss of SBW mattered a lot in the end because the All Blacks led by 18-9 with 20 minutes to go. Playing a man down must have made a difference as I don't recall the ABs losing from a lead in the last quarter, let alone a nine-point one.

SBWs red, Mako's yellow (which must have been a very deep shade of orange) Sinckler outburst at the end and others were all indicators that there was an awful lot of commitment around, but most of it was legitimate. Rugby wouldn't be the same without a bit of intimidation, and the Lions aren't afraid any more.

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Imaginary Friend

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They might not be afraid any more, but I think we saw enough today to say that if the ABs keep 15 men on the park and kick their goals, they'll be the winners next week.

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Jamat
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3c8CH9
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Well I was wrong. It was a game to the max - but only because the Lions didn't keep their cool for the remainder of the first half. They should have capitalised 12 points in that period. Then the ABs outplayed them for 20 minutes in the second. But with 14 if the Lions got their heads straight it was always going to ve a tough call. No complaints about the call on SBW, either. It was apiece of league brutality, a brain explosion which he does have occasionally. As it happens the last AB to be red carded was Colin Meads (now seriously ill) so he's in good company -0 buy the '67 ABs went on to win with 14.

Vunipola back in his city of birth had rocks in his head. My man Itoje went from hero to zero and back but on the whole showed what a talent he is.

The ABs will win next week but the Lions can be proud. And as for thier fans, the NZ populace have fallen in love!

Yep, Lions did their best to lose it and ref did his best to help.
When I played what they call 'cleaning' now was tackling players minus the ball. Vunipola deserved his card as he tried to take out ABs best back on the ground.and SBW did too.. what a turkey!

ABs now have selection probs in backs so don't write off Lions next week. Think of the changes from a very short time ago. no Fekitoa,no Savea and now no Crotty no SBW or Ben Smith. Whereas Lions backs are coming good. Don't know why Teo was not on their bench.
I hope they give Damian McKenzie a run.

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Well I was wrong. It was a game to the max - but only because the Lions didn't keep their cool for the remainder of the first half. They should have capitalised 12 points in that period. Then the ABs outplayed them for 20 minutes in the second. But with 14 if the Lions got their heads straight it was always going to ve a tough call. No complaints about the call on SBW, either. It was apiece of league brutality, a brain explosion which he does have occasionally. As it happens the last AB to be red carded was Colin Meads (now seriously ill) so he's in good company -0 buy the '67 ABs went on to win with 14.

Vunipola back in his city of birth had rocks in his head. My man Itoje went from hero to zero and back but on the whole showed what a talent he is.

The ABs will win next week but the Lions can be proud. And as for thier fans, the NZ populace have fallen in love!

Yep, Lions did their best to lose it and ref did his best to help.
When I played what they call 'cleaning' now was tackling players minus the ball. Vunipola deserved his card as he tried to take out ABs best back on the ground.and SBW did too.. what a turkey!

ABs now have selection probs in backs so don't write off Lions next week. Think of the changes from a very short time ago. no Fekitoa,no Savea and now no Crotty no SBW or Ben Smith. Whereas Lions backs are coming good. Don't know why Teo was not on their bench.
I hope Hansen gives Damian McKenzie a run.



[ 01. July 2017, 21:40: Message edited by: Jamat ]

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
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Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

When I played what they call 'cleaning' now was tackling players minus the ball. Vunipola deserved his card as he tried to take out ABs best back on the ground.and SBW did too.. what a turkey!


Ah, "cleaning".

Way back when I was new to the game (and "Pinetree" was still playing) our rugby teacher who played to regional level in England at wing-forward told us that anyone in contact with a ruck or maul can be "cleared out" and you can do that by pushing him back off the ruck or maul. I'd be amazed if Buck Shelford and Jerry Collins wouldn't do it. Has the game changed?

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Zappa
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I'm not entirely convinced by McKenzie at the next level ... had a shocker in the Māori ABs game, though it was a game in which he wasn't fullback and didn't get very good ball at first five. Fekitoa is back, Laumape is showing considerable talent. I'd like to see three Barretts out there!

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Zappa
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Looks like I got my wishes though I doubt all three Barretts will be on at once. He's gone for youth. Id forgotten Rieko Ioane in the mix - which might be because so far he hasn't lived up to promise, though he will. Fekitoa is a scary reserve. Anton Lienert-Brown is all class, and Israel Dagg is a game-breaker. And I think there's some forwards there, too!

That said ... a youthful back line against the improved Lions is a big call. Should be a beauty.

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Sioni Sais
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I can't help thinking that's a better backline for the All Blacks. Every chance that Te'o will be on at the 50 minute mark to shore up midfield and make a few dents and I don't expect Read to have two quiet games in a row.

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Zappa
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Yeah. Jordie Barrett is if anything a better player than Beauden, so I doubt his nerves will be too exposed. Davies has a tough night at the office ahead of him. Aaron Smith's jaw won't stop flapping all night (really don't like a lot of half backs. I was one, albeit pretty useless). I can't see the Lions winning this but I'll be happy enough if they do.

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Sioni Sais
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Now that the Lions aren't afraid and have worked out a way to win a game I think the result will depend on the breakdown or to be more accurate, how much interference the referee allows. The ABs are efficient at this point but if the Lions a) don't turn it over as often as they did in the First test (twenty-three times!) and b)don't get pinged too much they have a chance.

I'm not putting any money on the L:ions though: the game is in Auckland and I'm beginning to wonder why any side agrees to play there twice in a series!

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Now that the Lions aren't afraid and have worked out a way to win a game I think the result will depend on the breakdown or to be more accurate, how much interference the referee allows. The ABs are efficient at this point but if the Lions a) don't turn it over as often as they did in the First test (twenty-three times!) and b)don't get pinged too much they have a chance.

I'm not putting any money on the L:ions though: the game is in Auckland and I'm beginning to wonder why any side agrees to play there twice in a series!

Well, in Auckland it also looks like wet weather rugby. This means mistakes under the high ball so more of a lottery. Jordie Barrett is a newbie so a risk. So is Laumape. I think this one will come down to who wins the breakdown..and that will depend on the ref. Even more of a lottery. The French are possibly the most inconsistent stakeholders of the rugby world. This is a rare chance for the northern hemisphere style to triumph.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
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Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Zappa
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Jordie's been great under the high ball. Game on, but I think the ABs use of the bence will crush it.

Hope we get three Barretts.

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Zappa
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Well well well

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Zappa
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... and I got my three Barretts on the field at once, though I don't think Scott got to touch the ball

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Sioni Sais
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I've heard a few suggestions that there should have been extra time to decide on a winner for the series, but I think that would be wrong. The Lions were underprepared, used the wrong plan and made selection errors in #, they had the man advantage in #2 and in #3 they made the yellow card count for just enough against a couple of tries. A draw is right.
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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Now that the Lions aren't afraid and have worked out a way to win a game I think the result will depend on the breakdown or to be more accurate, how much interference the referee allows. The ABs are efficient at this point but if the Lions a) don't turn it over as often as they did in the First test (twenty-three times!) and b)don't get pinged too much they have a chance.

I'm not putting any money on the L:ions though: the game is in Auckland and I'm beginning to wonder why any side agrees to play there twice in a series!

Well, in Auckland it also looks like wet weather rugby. This means mistakes under the high ball so more of a lottery. Jordie Barrett is a newbie so a risk. So is Laumape. I think this one will come down to who wins the breakdown..and that will depend on the ref. Even more of a lottery. The French are possibly the most inconsistent stakeholders of the rugby world. This is a rare chance for the northern hemisphere style to triumph.
ABs 15 Lions 15. ABs had edge but not on scoreboard. Farrell is my player of the series. French ref..shrug. At least it was not Barnes. Someone must have cleaned up at the TAB.
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Sioni Sais
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I agree that the ABs had the edge - they scored two tries and should have had another. Farrell's well worth player of the series as he missed far fewer kicks at goal, especially at Wellington. At times the ABs looked fallible and error-prone, which says something for the Lions, and the much criticised Warren Gatland.

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Tukai
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From neutral Australia, this looked to be a great match. And as a bloke watching (on TV) with me commented, "you'd never guess this mob [the Lions] came from the northern hemisphere; they are actually trying to run the ball".
That said, the ABs had slightly the better of the game, and would have won if they had seized all their opportunities as they usually so ruthlessly do. e.g. 2 missed kicks at goal, 1 dropped pass withe line open, and 1 try [rightly] disallowed for a forward pass. Though the Lions had a lot of the ball , inc from turnovers, they usually dropped it (under pressure, to be fair!) before that play became a real opportunity to score.

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Imaginary Friend

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Maro Itoje though. What a talent!

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Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Maro Itoje though. What a talent!

Not only a "talent". Talents get found out in rugby. Itoje has been outstanding at club and country level and was only "adequate" against the All Blacks because he was up against the best in the world. Barring injury he may get to return to New Zealand.

Furlong and Daly as first tourists impressed me too.

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Jamat
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That last non penalty.
News tonight seems to report a consensus that Poite made an error. The player caught the ball clearly then released it as soon as he realised what he'd done. This constitutes off side play not to be confused with accidental OS in which no volition is involved on the player's part.
ABs though and NZ rugby seem to have developed an entitlement mentality and surely it is good to see this dented. They had earlier chances to put the game away which they, uncharacteristically, did not take.

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Imaginary Friend

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...And their defensive line was consistently offside, and they threw about a bazillion forward passes. So no, I'm not losing any sleep over that final call.

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
...And their defensive line was consistently offside, and they threw about a bazillion forward passes. So no, I'm not losing any sleep over that final call.

Me neither.
Interestingly the confusion of rugby interpretation is well illustrated by that episode. Poitecould have:
Allowed play to continue playing advantage to NZ in which case they may possibly have scored a try.
Penalised Kieran Read for interference with a player in the air because he had no realistic way of winning a challenge for the ball
Penalised the Lions for OS which was what most refs would have done
Or do the most unlikely thing by second guessing himself and awarding the scrum which all agree was wrong.
Ah..'tis a very strange game!

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Sioni Sais
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I suppose (no more) that he opted for the scrum as the "least impact" option. Might not be right but it's common enough.

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Zappa
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Sorry about the silence ... frenetic since then ... the outcome was superb, the penalty far more complex than either side would admit, rugby the winner cliche cliche and fantastic all round. Great series and yes, a reminder to NZ that our boys in black ain't gods.

Except the Barretts, of course. Well the back line ones. Scott doesn't count.

And the interview I saw with Itoje shows he's a very intelligent, articulate young mad as well as an outstanding player. May he run many yards with a bladder in his hand.

[ 15. July 2017, 04:51: Message edited by: Zappa ]

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Zappa
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Right, down this end of the world we are reaching the pointy end of the bizarre Super-However-Many-It-Is-Now comp, with the South African Lions team fronting up to the NZ Canterbury Crusaders for the final. Could be quite a battle.

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Right, down this end of the world we are reaching the pointy end of the bizarre Super-However-Many-It-Is-Now comp, with the South African Lions team fronting up to the NZ Canterbury Crusaders for the final. Could be quite a battle.

Lions v Hurricanes
Boden Barrett was sin binned totally unjustifiably. A horrendous call that wrecked the game and the Hurricanes' chances. Is there any other sport where the rules and their interpretations are so contentious and randomly applied?

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Right, down this end of the world we are reaching the pointy end of the bizarre Super-However-Many-It-Is-Now comp, with the South African Lions team fronting up to the NZ Canterbury Crusaders for the final. Could be quite a battle.

Lions v Hurricanes
Boden Barrett was sin binned totally unjustifiably. A horrendous call that wrecked the game and the Hurricanes' chances. Is there any other sport where the rules and their interpretations are so contentious and randomly applied?

His tackle was good, but he "moved out" so as to move the ball back to his own team. It might be common practice but it's a penalty anywhere and in the 22 usually a yellow card.

IANAR.

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
Right, down this end of the world we are reaching the pointy end of the bizarre Super-However-Many-It-Is-Now comp, with the South African Lions team fronting up to the NZ Canterbury Crusaders for the final. Could be quite a battle.

Lions v Hurricanes
Boden Barrett was sin binned totally unjustifiably. A horrendous call that wrecked the game and the Hurricanes' chances. Is there any other sport where the rules and their interpretations are so contentious and randomly applied?

His tackle was good, but he "moved out" so as to move the ball back to his own team. It might be common practice but it's a penalty anywhere and in the 22 usually a yellow card.

IANAR.

Well that is how Peyper saw it. After replays ISTM very obvious that the Lions tackled player shoved the ball into Barrett who was actually not trying to play it but making an effort to roll away. Still, only a game but one of the reasons the ref's calls are a lottery. It is a shame Peyper and all the officials are South African..not a good look.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Well that is how Peyper saw it. After replays ISTM very obvious that the Lions tackled player shoved the ball into Barrett who was actually not trying to play it but making an effort to roll away. Still, only a game but one of the reasons the ref's calls are a lottery. It is a shame Peyper and all the officials are South African..not a good look.

TBH, if I was playing nowadays there is no way the ball would have been rucked back to the attacking side, so I'd have got a ten-minute break too (and a few bruises).

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Jamat
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I see Peyper is going to ref the final.
If the Crusaders win this one they will be indeed the best!

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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Nice wee touch for the Kids down under her in lil ol NZ.
Nigel Owens turned up to ref an under 15s final as a warm up for doing the All Blacksv Aussies on Sat.
Love it when these guys look after the kids.

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Jamat
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NZ 57. SA 0
Boring.

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Zappa
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# 8433

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25-24 this time and wow. The 'Boks are back (again).

Oh look - the officials agreed with me: Malcolm Marks was named man of the match despite being on the losing side. Kitshoff had a massive game, as did the skipper Etzebeth and Serfontein ... just a mammoth struggle that coiuld have gone either way. A red card in the last six minutes didn't make much difference as it had to be a yellow at least under the laws. Crotty's try probably was the right call, but room for debate.

So the difference in the end was that the ABs had no stand-out players (though McKenzie was amazing)
All in all an invigorating start to the day and the universe in order at last but full-squad seamless depth. If the Boks continue to play like they did today then the battle for the World Cup will be amazing.

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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Oh dear, Gatland has thrown his toys out of the pram.

There were a few selection errors and I don't think he got everything right but Sean O'Brien and others should have paid some attention to other members of the coaching team, which was a pretty moderate assortment with little originality. I'd have taken Steve Borthwick as a line-out specialist but none of the others.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Tukai
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# 12960

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For only the second time in 19 matches, the Wobblies beat the All Blacks. Game was close, very intense and fast-moving , esp in the second half. Admittedly it was the last match in a dead rubber, but it does suggest that the Wobblies may win a few more matches on the NH tour at the end of the year.

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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.

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L'organist
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So gallant Wales went down to the Wallabies. Handling errors and some poor discipline was our undoing - I've got to hope we sharpen up a bit before we take on the mighty ABs at the end of the month.

Thought there was some eccentric refereeing at the England-Argentina match: the sin-binning at the beginning really did look undeserved.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
So gallant Wales went down to the Wallabies. Handling errors and some poor discipline was our undoing - I've got to hope we sharpen up a bit before we take on the mighty ABs at the end of the month.

If Wales can sharpen up their defence and concede fewer turnovers they will be a real threat, especially if Jonathan Davies is OK. The idea of a ball-playing #12, like the Australasian second five-eighth, is gaining popularity so it looks like Jamie Roberts days could are over.
quote:


Thought there was some eccentric refereeing at the England-Argentina match: the sin-binning at the beginning really did look undeserved.

It should be a huge wake-up call to England who would have lost to a side with a decent goal kicker. The penalty count was not impressive. A good side works out what the ref is penalising and adjusts its game. There's no point whinging.
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Jonah the Whale

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# 1244

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Loads of international rugby over the weekend. Germany beat Brazil, showing that they don't only play football. The biggest climbers in the world rankings when they come out tomorrow will be the Netherlands, up from 33rd to 28th in the world after thumping Moldova 7-59. Just thought you'd like to know.
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rolyn
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Wet and slippery conditions turned to England's advantage in the end. The 'magic ball' which didn’t go for touch helped too.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Wet and slippery conditions turned to England's advantage in the end. The 'magic ball' which didn’t go for touch helped too.

FWIW England did get the benefit of decisions, notably yellow cards. England could have had one or two.

I don't think the decisions by the TMO regarding Australian "tries" were wrong, but I reckon the ref. asked the wrong question for the one that would have levelled the score with 15 minutes to go: that knocked the spirit out of Australia.

Oh, and my Welsh friends all reckon Georgia were unlucky.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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