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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The game that batters: the rugby thread
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chapelhead:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England have a 14 pt advantage going into the game but given Wales' hard running backs and England's missed tackle count, a two try margin is distinctly possible.
And Wales don't need to beat England by 14 points, 7 will do, I think (with Wales then winning on number of tries scored). Each point reduces England's margin and improves Wales'. A 7 point victory seems quite possible.
You're quite right and I realised it within minutes of posting . Seven points is very possible - one Welsh back going through an over-committed English tackle and that will do.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
I think it has to be 8 pts doesn't it? Not sure.... Not impossible but I think England will be up for it - although they'll have to play better than they did this weekend
Sadly I think they will ![[Frown]](frown.gif) but I'm keeping my fingers crossed for Wales......well OK biting my fingernails!
My gut feeling is that we all need to get real about Italy. The days of going to Rome and coming away with cricket scores are gone. Same at club level. The Ospreys played Zebre not so long ago and they were very lucky to come away with a win......and no Zebre haven't earned their stripes ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif) Played 17 lost 17....
So what do people think of Sale beating Sarries then?
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
I think it has to be 8 pts doesn't it?
If Wales win by 7 then both teams will have the same points difference. I believe that the next decider is points scored, which Wales will be ahead on. So yeah, a 7 point win will be enough for them.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I live surrounded by the Welsh and the impression I get is that they don't mind England winning the championship, just so long as they don't complete a triple crown, and hence a grand slam, in Cardiff! That would hurt much, much more.
FWIW, I reckon it will be all or nothing: either England will be goaded by Sunday's poor performance into a win, or a big enough Welsh one to enable them to retain the title.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Chapelhead
I am
# 21
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Posted
I think I might be channeling Wood.
If Wales beat England by 7 points, then the competition will be decided on number of tries scored, which currently stands 7 to 5 in Wales' favour. So unless there is a really bizarre result, with England finding the ability to score tries (which seems to have escaped them for the last few games) while still losing by 7 points then a 7 point win by Wales will be enough.
In the event of Wales winning by 7 points, but England scoring two more tries than Wales, so both teams have the same number of competition points (8 points from 4 wins), the same match-point difference and the same number of tries scored then the Championship is shared between them.
Personally I fancy Wales. England's position in the table flatters them. They were lucky to get the result against Italy, and were fortunate that France turned up in self-destruct mode.
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At times like this I find myself thinking, what would the Amish do?
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Wow,what a game!
I'm speechless - and breathless!
Wales 30 England 3
Think we've won the Championship...... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I half-expected Wales to triumph but not by 30-3!
Wales concentrated on wrecking England's scrum and succeeded. England missed tackles, and with no scrum ball, lots of penalties against them, only one side was ever in it.
I worry for the Lions this summmer, as they have selected Andy Farrell as defensive coach, and he has done that job for England.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
I must admit I was hoping for a 10 point lead, as it wasn't enough just to win the game but if anyone had mentioned a 27 pt lead I'd have laughed at them
I feel sorry though for Sioni not only because his side loss but also I have a feeling his Welsh friends are probably going to be unbearable for a while! However as a Hell host I know he'll cope...
Great game and a very good advert for rugby I'd have said
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
I feel sorry though for Sioni not only because his side loss but also I have a feeling his Welsh friends are probably going to be unbearable for a while! However as a Hell host I know he'll cope...
I'm hidden away to some extent and of my ten colleagues only two are Welsh! I doubt they will be quiet about it, but there are eight English on the team, plus one South African who will probably be worst of all!
[ 16. March 2013, 21:06: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Both sides certainly took a battering . That was really physical stuff, and fortunately didn't boil over too much.
The score line didn't reflect the effort England put in. As you say something was badly wrong with the scrummaging, we might as well have just given Wales the ball as give away 3 points every time.
But yeah , well and truly beat. There's no other way of dressing it up.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
In the after meeting fellowship today I was truly ashamed to be an Englishman abroad (OK, in Wales, but it feels foreign). The whinging about the ref by my compatriots was appalling! Steve Walsh isn't my favourite official - he's a pernickety sod - but if he tells you to stand here, engage here and do so straight and level, one cannot be surprised to get pinged if you don't!
I don't recall England having anyone yellow carded. That would be our sole achievement
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
I was fairly sure we'd win and hopeful that we'd get the points for the championship, but didn't expect the hammering that ensued. I was at my parents' in Cardiff for the match then caught the train back to Bristol. The carriage was about 50 50 Welsh English and there was much singing and teasing. I suspect a similar mix of football fans would have been less good natured.
Carys
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
I wasn't nearly so relaxed about it Carys - in fact I thought it could have gone either way. With us playing at home with the passionate Millenium crowd I thought we might have had a chance of winning but not by enough points. I was hoping we'd win by 10 points but felt I was fantasising!!
Floating on air at the moment......you don't have to drink much to get drunk
I was very pleased to see that the vestments were red on Sunday - for Passiontide
I approve of that! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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St. Gwladys
Shipmate
# 14504
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Posted
Got to half time and was able to breathe again!That was an amazing 2nd half, fair play - in fact, tidy!
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"I say - are you a matelot?"
"Careful what you say sir, we're on board ship here"
From "New York Girls", Steeleye Span, Commoners Crown (Voiced by Peter Sellers)
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
On The Stupidest Thing in Sport thread The Great Gumby suggested that the current state of the scrum in Rugby Union is the second-worst (after the designated hitter rule in baseball). On the BBC website, former England hooker Brian Moore gives chapter and verse on why it doesn't work.
Here's Sioni recipe for scrums in the 21st century (and yes, I have played there, at tighthead prop, which is the fun position in the front row).
- The "hit" must go. It's dangerous and, as Brian Moore says, makes it impossible to referee every other aspect of the scrum.
- The front rows must engage and wait. They must be at the line determined by the referee and must be straight and level.
- The remaining ten players (the second rows and back rows) then bind on in the approved manner. Again, the scrum must not move.
- The referee stands on the open side of the scrum, with the touch-judge looking down the line of the scrum on the blind side. Either official can call when a law is contravened, such as the ball going in crooked, one side shoving early or someone binding illegally.
- Now the scrummage starts. Better strength and technique (of teams and individuals) will still be rewarded and IMHO, it will be clearer to everyone what is going on and why referees make the decisions they do. Oh, and it will probably be safer.
What does the team think?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
I've never played front row, so I probably don't have the technical understanding to comment. But I will say two general things which is that as they stand, scrums are a complete mess so something should be done. Then, for me, it would be a shame to lose the combative nature of the hit. My gut feeling is that most collapses happen after the hit, not during so I'm not sure it's the most pressing safety issue. But I'm happy to leave this one to the experts. And I certainly appreciate Moore's comments on the issue.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Front-row fiasco #3
I was at "Judgement Day" earlier, a double-header at Cardiff's magnificent Milleneum Stadium, featuring Newport Gwent Dragons v (Llanelli) Scarlets and Ospreys v Blues. A couple of good, but different games. Newport didn't get the drubbing some feared.
Scarlets and Ospreys won so the West Walians have bragging rights this year, but the most notable factor was that in the Dragons v Scarlets games the scrums generally ended satisfactorily (ie, the scrum restarted the game) and I don't recall any penalties from scrums. In the Ospreys v Blues game it was another story. Adam Jones, who made a mess of England's scrum last week started off in the same destructive manner but after 20 minutes one of the locks was replaced by a no 8/flank forward; a big lump, but no second-row, so I don't think there was the same shove coming through The second half was more competitive but both sides tried so hard to get the "hit" as the ball was put in, that scrums collapsed as a consequence, penalties were common and at one time it too nearly three minutes to get to a post-scrum phase of play after the sides formed up for the scrum!
Different referees of course, and the sides in the first match could just have agreed beforehand "Look, no funny stuff, we've got a paying public here".
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Well Nigel is a spectator sport in his own right I think!
I saw the Glasgow v Ospreys match and the scrums were a diabolical shambles
I think you're right about the hit, Sioni. Seeing collapsed scrum after collapsed scrum in a game is a real pain in the proverbial
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
The 2013 Lione Squad has been named
FIFTEEN WELSH PLAYERS ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
About right. I'm surprised Tom Youngs is in, as Ken Owens is more experienced as a hooker and is a great replacement with 25 minutes left. Two of the locks are injury prone (Gray and O'Connell) and there isn't anyone who looks like a third no 10.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
SS - I agree: they should have put in James Hook because he can be used as a kicking utility back.
As for O'Connell - he could be a liability if he gives in and punches someone (not an unknown occurrence).
Tom Youngs is in for purely political reasons - they need the English RU to support the Lions.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
As for O'Connell - he could be a liability if he gives in and punches someone (not an unknown occurrence).
I thought that was exactly why PO'C is going! You need an enforcer, especially in Australia, and he's the best in the Home Nations.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
...but still not a patch on either Fergus Slattery or Terry Cobner in that role
(Oh dear, I'm showing my age!)
Good to see they're taking Brian O'Driscoll - he deserves a last hurrah.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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McChicken
Shipmate
# 2555
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Posted
quote:
The 2013 Lions Squad has been named
FIFTEEN WELSH PLAYERS
The 2013 Lions Squad has been named
THREE NZ PLAYERS, a Tongan, a Samoan and a KIWI COACH
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"We're not playing tiddly-winks here mate."
"While the opposite of a true statement is a false statement, the opposite of a profound truth can be another profound truth."
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Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
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Posted
So the first test is this Saturday. Do the Lions have a chance? After some comfortable wins earlier on in the tour against meagre opposition they lost 14-12 midweek, which doesn't bode well. Bob Dwyer, former Australia coach says the Lions are cheats. What do the assembled Ship folks think?
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Typical Aussie gamesmanship, nothing more.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
As usual, the game will be decided by the scrums and rucks. That is, who wins the referee's mental toss of the coin when he decides which side to give the penalty to, as under strict RU rules he could award a penalty to either side at almost every scrum and at every second ruck. And at this level, the penalty kickers don't miss many.
But I'll be watching (on TV) anyway.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
And at this level, the penalty kickers don't miss many.
Don't they?
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
What Tukai said. The Lions gave too many penalties away and if you do that there's no point arguing with the referee (As England found in the Six Nations) because he won't change his mind (as England found in the Six Nations).
I've still got doubts about Sam Warburton - Tipuric would be better suited to a game with faster rucks, which reduces the penalty count. Mike Phillips was pretty ordinary and I don't think Vunipola is up to the job. Somehow Corbisiero has to do 80 minutes!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
The Lions gave too many penalties away...
In fairness, I thought a few of them were a bit harsh. There was one in the second half in particular where a Lions loose forward came right through a ruck, claimed the ball, and got pinged for entering at the side. Wrong decision, I thought and I told the referee so (via the psychic link in my laptop) in no uncertain terms. ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
Although the final score did depend on penalty kicks (both those taken and those missed- oh Dear!), the two star wingers (North and Folau) made the game worth watching. Predictions in some UK media that Folau would be a weak link were somewhat off.
And spare a thought (and prayer) for the unfortunate Christian Lealei'ifano. Last season he was injured just when he was ready to make his test debut, and this season he got on the field but was carried off injured in the first minute.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
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the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
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Posted
The silence on here is deafening! Taking a bit of effort to come to terms with?
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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Not really. Just sets up a great finish in Sydney next week.
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
The silence on here is deafening! Taking a bit of effort to come to terms with?
I only followed the game on line. No Sky TV and I couldn't even find a radio commentary! Congratulations Australia and it sets things up for the Third Test.
It sounds like Australia can scrummage better than in days of yore and have an awesome defence. That recipe's worked for a century and more for, ahem, the All Blacks, so there's no reason it shouln't work for Oz.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
Just leaving Melbourne. Lots of supporters, still happy, still raucous but in a friendly way. Lion supporters. All the Aussies are in bed . 5 am btw.
Lightweights.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
It's the Aussie supporters who are in bed. The players (or at least some notorious ones among them) are probably still out on the town boozing.
Defence on both sides was so strong that there was hardly any running with the ball. And the shape of the game was again determined by 'toss of the coin' penalties at scrums and rucks. The best I can say as a spectator is that the game was as closely contested as teh scoreline suggests.
Now to watch the World Cup Sevens, where we can guarantee to see players run more than 3 metres without spilling the ball. Go , Fiji, go!
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
Is it just possible that the Lions will go into the decider without Brian O'Driscoll? He is hardly the weakest link but he has given away more penalties than before and I think the Aussies have worked him out.
If Jamie Roberts is fit I'd start with him and Jonathan Davies and then I really don't know who to have as backup! There are cases to be made for Tuilagi (power), BOD (class) and Twelvetrees (unknown quantity).
Shame about Sam Warburton but I'd love to see Tipuric start and here's hoping Corbisiero is fit - his absence probably cost England the Grand Slam.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
You Beauties! Gatland gets it right, BoD is not God and what a difference it makes when scrummaging can be done properly.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
Northern Hemisphere refereeing! ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Northern Hemisphere refereeing!
I expect we'll hear a lot about that from Australia, certainly more than we heard about it from up north during the previous matches, refereed by a New Zealander and a South African.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
At one point, Stuart Barnes referred to Romain Poite as "the premier scrummaging referee in the world" or something like that. I don't know if that was based on today's performance or previous ones, but it's hard to argue.
But it wasn't just the scrums where the Lions were better. Their kicking game and general choice of option was better. Sexton played very well, the back three were tight in defense and quick in attack. Australia's previous domination of the breakdown was also broken by the Lions' back row and that made it a much more even contest in midfield. So if there's any Aussie griping about the scrums then we've got plenty else to point to.
And to borrow a song from football:
quote:
Campo, what's the score?
Campo, Campo what's the score?
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
The silence on here is deafening! Taking a bit of effort to come to terms with?
You were saying?
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960
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Posted
It's a set-up by SANZAR. They were worried that if the Lions once again failed to win a series, then all those Lions supporters who so boost brewery profits and gate takings in the south might lose faith and not come on tour again. So the ARU were instructed to make sure that (a) the series was tight, and (b) the Lions won in the end.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
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Imaginary Friend
Real to you
# 186
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Posted
A new English season is kicking off, and Bristol have not only hired a high profile coach (Andy Robinson), but are tipped to secure promotion back to the Premiership. I'll believe it when it happens, but maybe that'll convince me to pay a bit more attention to them this year!
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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
A new English season is kicking off, and Bristol have not only hired a high profile coach (Andy Robinson), but are tipped to secure promotion back to the Premiership. I'll believe it when it happens, but maybe that'll convince me to pay a bit more attention to them this year!
I wish them well, if only to give Bath v Bristol games the spice they had when I followed Bath as a schoolboy 40+ years ago (with our chemistry teacher playing at no 7) Back then Bristol won, more often than not. Bath were very much third in the local pecking order, behind Glaws & Brizzle, but regularly beat the London softies.
Andy Robinson may be high profile but he's never convinced me as a coach. Maybe he's still feeling the pain after That Tackle which all but ended his career!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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betjemaniac
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# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
A new English season is kicking off, and Bristol have not only hired a high profile coach (Andy Robinson), but are tipped to secure promotion back to the Premiership. I'll believe it when it happens, but maybe that'll convince me to pay a bit more attention to them this year!
Depends who you listen to. We (LW), have recruited *very* encouragingly. The Rugby Paper has actually got us as favourites. Not that that means anything. I'll settle for top four, and then the play off lottery....
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Tukai
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# 12960
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Posted
I have to say that the All Blacks are looking impressive recently. Their game against the Springboks two weeks ago was probably the highest standard of play I've seen all year - and that goes for both sides, as the SA press rightly pointed out. The Springboks scored 4 tries, but the ABs got 5, both against good defences. It was end to end running with very few 'errors', with the few scrums cleanly decided without five minutes of resets and/or penalties, and very well refereed - no big disputes afterwards or on-field.
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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.
Posts: 594 | From: Oz | Registered: Sep 2007
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