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Source: (consider it) Thread: The timeless Test - Everlasting cricket thread
Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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Woken up by beer on bladder, I popped the radio on to check the score, and dragged it into the bedroom, and didn't go back to sleep again until after the Aus-NZ finish! Wow, who needs 400+ totals for a gripper?

Pity the UAE vs India is a damp squib.

On a personal level I was delighted to discover that, when Scotland played Afghanistan, Majid Haq trundled one down at an awe-inspiring 42mph! Slooooooooooooow bowlers solidarity movement!

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Evensong
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# 14696

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Spewing. Missed the dramatic finish. Had to leave when NZ were on about 110 for 4. [Waterworks]

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a theological scrapbook

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Sioni Sais
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After a post-prandial snooze I stayed up (!) for the NZ v Australia game. What a match! I do feel that Kane Williamson deserved MotM for holding it together.

quote:
Originally posted by Sandemaniac:
On a personal level I was delighted to discover that, when Scotland played Afghanistan, Majid Haq trundled one down at an awe-inspiring 42mph! Slooooooooooooow bowlers solidarity movement!

AG

Shows that many supposed slow bowlers aren't slow! Monty regularly bowled 60 mph, Shahid Afridi's quick one (even his legal quick one) was in the low seventies and I saw Phil Edmonds bowl a 'throat ball' at a diminutive batsman off three strides - none of your 'slow-ball bouncer' either!

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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Decent dig by England there, with Joe Root doing particularly well. Dare I hope that our bowlers will back the batsmen up?

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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Hope may spring eternal but...

Doing it by nine wickets with 16 balls to spare is, perhaps, rubbing it in a bit.

What price a quarter finals place for England now?

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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Sioni Sais
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That was embarrassing. Again. Our record against the Test playing nations is lost by 111 runs, lost by 119 runs and lost by 9 wickets. That reads like Leicestershire in Division 2 of the County Championship last season and they were terrible!

One statistic I have picked up on is that England have lost nine ODIs after scoring 300+, more than anyone else. England play fewer ODIs that many of the top nations, so I would suggest that our batting isn't quite good enough but our out-cricket, bowling, fielding and especially leadership is very ordinary (as the Aussies so neatly put it).

Breaking out of this is difficult but I do have to ask why Jordan and Tredwell aren't in the side, and the more I see of Buttler, the more I think he could do a job as opener. If he's half as good as Adam Gilchrist he'll be twice as good as our current openers.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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agingjb
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# 16555

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If a team doesn't take wickets then even a good batting performance will be liable to be overtaken. The most telling part of the final score was "for 1".

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Refraction Villanelles

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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What is the Urdu for "Oy vey ist mir"? I mean PAK won v. ZIM in spite of a lot of dropped catches. I certainly caught on to a lot of the team miming that phrase.

As for England - words fail me, truly. Not that I was cheering for them - I only do that in an ABA situation.

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Even more so than I was before

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England play fewer ODIs that many of the top nations

And rightly so. Test cricket is the real form of the game, all this short-form nonsense is just for people who haven't got the patience to watch a proper game. It's to be tolerated, but not prioritised.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Imaginary Friend

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# 186

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This might be a reflection of the fact that I hardly ever watch one day cricket, but I thought England batted quite nicely yesterday.

I had to go to be just after they took their first (and only!) wicket, but there was still a bit of hope then.

Oh well.

And now, we basically have to win both the final games to have a chance of going through. Hoping the weather gods smile on us.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England play fewer ODIs that many of the top nations

And rightly so. Test cricket is the real form of the game, all this short-form nonsense is just for people who haven't got the patience to watch a proper game. It's to be tolerated, but not prioritised.
Absolutely!

Why live on biscuits when you can have a proper meal?

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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[sarcasm]Well, that was exciting, wasn't it?[/sarcasm]

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Sioni Sais
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The lopsided matches are one thing, I just wish they would get on with it! England have a week off between games and thanks to the weather Australia had a two-week break.

The Cricket World Cup started back on February 14th and ends on March 29th. The Rugby World Cup is scheduled to run from 18th September to 31st October. That is six weeks plus two days for both. OK, the finalists in the cricket play nine rather than seven matches but is cricket really so punishing on mind and body that the players can't play two matches a week? There are six more teams at the Rugby World Cup too.

I suppose some of it is dictated by TV schedules but they look odd, with two matches on some days and none on others, and that's at the group stage!

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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India v the Windies today. I hope both teams come to play hard (but the Windies shouldn't play too hard, as I want India to win!) The game is a day-nighter in Perth, so begins at the very reasonable time of noon IT.

[ 06. March 2015, 04:46: Message edited by: Uncle Pete ]

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Even more so than I was before

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Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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Sadly, once again, only the captain is bringing any respectability to the Windies total. Can't see India struggling to knock off 183...

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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...although at 25/2 off 8...

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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It's even worse now! 63-3. Enough to drive a teetotaler to drink!

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Even more so than I was before

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Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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At 134-6 I bet there were some squeaky bums!

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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They lost no more wickets and beat the Windies and the fielders made them work for their final score one run at a time (Mostly)

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Even more so than I was before

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The Rogue
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# 2275

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Another superb match. This one between between Ireland and Zimbabwe. Wow! Just, wow!

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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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Ireland won that one with 3 overs worth of prayers to St Jude with a final Glory Be from Porterfield. The 7th wicket caught on the edge of the boundary was particularly wonderful. The boundary didn't move no matter that the Zimbabwe coach screamed so much invective from the stands I thought he would have a coronary.

Pakistan v South Africa was a nailbiter as well. The SA powerhouse has fallen flat for at least two matches versus the subcontinent, and I grinned my way through both (first was India).

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Even more so than I was before

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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England v Bangladesh starts in about half an hour - should be interesting and I have no idea of the likely winner - nor even of who to cheer for!

--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829

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Cheer for Bangladesh... If England make the quarter-finals, they'll just embarrass themselves sooner or later. Currently 88-1 chasing 276 - many a slip...

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Cod
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Bell! Get a fucking move on!

Someone tell the man that this isn't a Test match. Push on, or get out!

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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Do stop sitting on the fence, Cod, old thing.

I can't help thinking that he knows full well that just one wicket could invoke the collapse...

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Cod
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# 2643

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It is better to crash and burn than this Laodicean pootling. Right now, England are making precisely the same mistake that they made against Sri Lanka. Having got off to a bit of a start, they spent the middle part of their innings pootling along to what they (wrongly) thought would be a match-winning total. I can imagine them all prodding away with Boycott's (and perhaps Moores') injunctions in their ears not to give their wickets away, to stay in, not do anything rash. As if they were playing Test cricket in short. No one has played ODI cricket like that for about 20 years.

Hooray! Bell's out! Maybe they'll push on now.

Oh crap. They've sent Morgan in. No they won't.

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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Cod
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Yes, yes, yes! Morgan's out too!!

I'm so excited!!

Now the real batsmen can come in!!

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829

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Given the way he's been playing, Ireland must be pleased as punch that Morgan's playing for England...

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829

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Not quite as embarrassing as the 1999 World Cup, but a decent effort to get into second place.

Good luck to the Tigers!

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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This household, HQ of India Central, World Cup is completely thrilled with the win of our brothers of Bangladesh.

Does England have open tickets to go home? Golf awaits. [Biased]

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Even more so than I was before

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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[Two face]

Big cheers here in Kerala for the lowliest of the subcontinental teams. England should have nailed that but I agree with Cod et al that they just don't have the guts at the moment.

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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I have just found this on the BBC site:

"You need individuality, originality, flair, and you need different players. The task is to get the players to play their own way, to their full ability, without fear."

It's from G Boycott. He's right but who associates flair and originality with G Boycott (apart from bowling with his cap on)?

An awful lot of people are opening their gobs and letting their wind blow theiur tongues around. Face it, Bangladesh were better and deserved to win. They had the big, solid mid-innings partnership, England lost wickets at much the same stage.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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Poor Ireland today ran up against an India is full flow - but if they [Ireland] beat Pakistan later in the week they could be in the last 8!

Loved the poster held up to the camera today by an Irish supporter that just said Eoin who?

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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Could someone let me know why Kumar Sangakkara is going to retire after the World Cup? It's one thing to go out at the top, but he is in astonishing form. Four successive hundreds, an average of 124 and a scoring rate of almost 120.

OK, some of the opposition is moderate (at best) but right now he only gets out when he doesn't want to stay in.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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I gather that he wants to spend more time with his family and also that although still top flight his body is beginning to protest that he has done enough.

--------------------
I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I have just found this on the BBC site:

"You need individuality, originality, flair, and you need different players. The task is to get the players to play their own way, to their full ability, without fear."

It's from G Boycott. He's right but who associates flair and originality with G Boycott (apart from bowling with his cap on)?

This would be the same G Boycott, who, with Mike Brearley, put on 129 for the first wicket at such a crawl that England collapsed in the search for quick runs, thus losing the 1979 World Cup final?

The man has no shame. But it is true that he had individuality and played his own way. England need more of that, just a different flavour of it. What they need is players with village attitude. I mean players who are able to slog with skill, examples being Botham, Flintoff, Robin Smith, Lamb and Pieterson. English cricket doesn't create many such players. Yet anyone who saw Nathan Astle's innings against England in 2001 knows that other countries have been producing them in droves for years.

quote:
An awful lot of people are opening their gobs and letting their wind blow theiur tongues around.
As well they might. England's efforts in this tournament have been laughable. There is no getting round that.

quote:
Face it, Bangladesh were better and deserved to win. They had the big, solid mid-innings partnership, England lost wickets at much the same stage.
They did indeed. And I'm sure this will be adapted to create a convenient excuse: England weren't crap: Bangladesh were just good: they are a rising force in world cricket, and it is inevitable that they will overtake old man England.

The reality is that England, despite its far superior resources, got hammered by Australia (as usual) and NZ and Sri Lanka. As it stands, they will leave this tournament having only obtained the scalp of the mighty Scotland, over half of whose players are imports.

England's astonishingly poor record is not limited to this tournament. At the last world cup they were beaten by Ireland, a country that hardly plays cricket at all. England have not performed well at a WC since 1992. In fact, in the last 30 years, England have only been even intermittently competitive in a form of the game that is fast becoming irrelevant except in Australia, despite being shored up by a raft of southern African talent.

But it would be unfair to single out the English cricket team for special opprobrium. Let us consider English - British in fact - performances in major sporting events generally. There is the one-dimensional football team, probably the world's biggest underachievers with the possible exception of Russia. There is the rugby team. English rugby has about 7 times as many registered players as any other rugby-playing country, yet they have won precisely one WC. The Scots are no better. They should at least have got to the second round of a football World Cup given the popularity of the game there, and their stodgy rugby team impresses no one where I live. I excuse from my general excoriation of British sport, only the Northern Irish football team and the Welsh rugby team, although even the latter ought to be a lot more competitive than they are.

Even the Olympics should be put into perspective, given home advantage and the huge injections of public money.

There is something about British sports administration that takes talent and turns it into dross. I think it is probably micro-management. Sport in Britain seems to require a five year plan and a multi-million pound budget in order to inform professional players that it is OK to get up half an hour later on Sundays. This sort of approach can sometimes work, ie, the rugby in 2003, and the Ashes tour of Australia in 2010, but it generally fails.

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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So will the weather gods conspire to stick one final unmistakeable middle digit up at England?

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Cod
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# 2643

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England's failures have nothing to do with the gods.

And barring a further deluge, they should get past Afghanistan in the next hour or so.

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"I fart in your general direction."
M Barnier

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Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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I wasn't suggesting they did, just that they could rub salt into the wound.

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
...I mean players who are able to slog with skill, examples being Botham, Flintoff, Robin Smith, Lamb and Pieterson. English cricket doesn't create many such players...

Indeed. And I suggest the fact that 60% of the players on your were raised in various parts of southern Africa is the final nail in that particular coffin.

The question is, why not? The obvious answers are the English climate, and the English propensity towards longer forms of the game. But I'm not sure that is really it. I would suggest that we have too many people like Boycott, who whinge and whine any time a batsman plays at anything that's not going to hit the stumps. It's cultural, and it's deep.

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Cod
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It's a question I enjoy pondering, if "enjoy" is the right word. Sometimes I'm forced to by friends and work colleagues giving me hell after the latest failure. Perhaps one day I will publish a book: Why the British Can't Play Sport, subtitled Cultural Learnings of Nuziland Make Benefit Gloriuos Sporting British Truiumphs . I mention NZ, because it's where I live, and people's approach to sport is far more positive than that of people in the UK

I think soggy English wickets don't help, but there are other reasons that make the pitches unimportant. I say that for two reasons. First, NZ wickets are similar, ie, they favour seam and swing and therefore defensive batting: a reasonably accurate bowler who can swing the ball can expect to take the wicket of a batsman who goes looking for shots. Yet NZ has produced plenty of quick-scoring players: Cairns, Astle, Ryder and McCullum for example. Possibly they bat on the principle that if you're on a sticky wicket, you're best getting your runs before the unplayable ball arrives.

The second reason is NZ's comparative success in other sports. Their success in rugby needs no describing. I will only note that they do it on similar resources to Wales and Scotland and far, far less than England. The All Blacks respect England, Wales to a lesser extent. Scotland are regarded as plucky minnows.

But they also have somewhat similar, perhaps better resources than Australia and South Africa, their true rivals, and also France, the only team they fear. So the picture that emerges is perhaps not NZ overachievement but British underachievement.

And then there is football. It's harder to draw a good comparison. NZ gets few matches against top countries and, in consequence, has a low FIFA ranking. But I think their 2010 outing can be fairly said to be better than England's in 2014. Considering how comparatively small NZ's football scene is, this is astonishing.

In the Olympics, NZ's medal tally per capita comfortably beat Britain's. It also comfortably beat England, Scotland and Wales on a per capita basis in the Commonwealth Games too.

Anyway, back to the cricket. At a grassroots level, it is certainly played to a higher standard. I remember in the 1980s playing for my school: we were only local state school that could put out a half-decent team. Even we generally had to field someone couldn't really play at all. Cricket had by then become a private school game or a club game, and I understand the situation has got worse since then. The Christmas before last, I was briefly back in the UK. I went out one day wearing a traditional cable knit cricket jumper. I got chatting with someone (of Indian extraction), and she excitedly asked me if I liked cricket. In NZ such a question would be absurd. All local schools at all levels here have a team and all their players know how to bowl, bat and field. At my daughters' perfectly normal primary school there are cricket nets and you will see kids of all ages bowling and batting in them with proper technique. But even that would not counterbalance England's sheer numbers.

I think the answer is probably - just like football - old fashioned and very conservative coaching. I remember being told to bowl line and length, to play straight, never to slog, to drive and not hook, to concentrate on accuracy rather than spin, and so on. In other words, an emphasis on discipline, not making mistakes and waiting for the other player's mistake. England's top players seem to have this mindset too. I think it is an approach that can work well if one is playing a Test match on a slow seamer. In an ODI, it doesn't work, because your batsmen won't score quickly enough, and your bowlers will get hit for six because the opposition batsman knows where the delivery is going to go.

Now, for some reason, NZ cricketers collectively figured this out without really talking about it. Perhaps it is because they are coached less and left just to get on it it. Everyone here thinks it is amusing that English cricket and rugby teams have the support teams they do. I think that for the players it must be absolutely stultifying.

I do actually think there is a direct parallel with football coaching which in the UK continues to emphasise physicality and route one. The parallel is that the culture in both sports is to carry on doing things the way they've always been done.

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Cod
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An additional thought. I think Boycott's observations are positively unhelpful. I was listening to his commentary on NZ v Aus, and it was all about staying in, batting out your overs, and not doing anything silly.

What that doesn't take into account is just how much run rates have increased. When he was playing tests, 2-3 runs an over was considered fine. The increasing importance of ODI cricket changed this to more like 3-4. I think it is very significant that the result was higher scores, not batting collapses and lower scores.

The advent of T20 has had the same effect on ODI cricket. In this tournament, 5 and over is below par. As we saw against Sri Lanka, 300 (ie, 6 an over) simply wasn't good enough.

The reason why batsmen can now score at that rate is because of changing technique. A good batsman is no longer one who has the full range of traditional shots, but one who can play all those shots, but improvise on them in order to work the field. It's what someone of Boycott's mindset would consider slogging. Actually, what they are doing is far more skilled than that, and it involves a different assessment of risk, ie, less emphasis on the risk of losing one's wicket and more emphasis on the risk of scoring slowly.

So we have every top team with players who can blast the ball around or accumulate quickly. England, by contrast, have Ian Bell. He is a fine player but he scores so slowly that he puts the team under pressure. In the modern game, an innings of 50 off 80 balls is a failure.

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Cod
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And I'm going to triple post because I have thought of something else. England's selections have often tended to favour players who have strong records. This might sound like a surprising criticism. My point is that it often overlooks poor form. Stuart Broad, for example, can no longer bat, and his bowling has slowed up. Why was he picked? Why was Alastair Cook picked for the ODI team for so long?

It was the same with the disastrous Ashes tour of Australia. England selected Graeme Swann, even though an injury to his arm meant he was permanently unable to spin the ball? Why pick a spinner who can't spin? Jonathan Trott was in a poor mental state. Why was he picked? His international career is now permanently wrecked. What a waste.

Well, here's my thoughts. If selection decisions had been left to one or two people who were accountable only for their results, they would probably have left them out. They would have checked their form, checked with the physio and the doctor, and omitted them.

But what if you know that such a decision is going to offend a number of people, who, despite not knowing the precise facts, will take it amiss if you leave out such a senior player? What if those people pay your salary? What do you do? Well, you select them and hope that it'll be alright on the night.

I suggest this is precisely the dynamic at the top of the top-heavy ECB.

[ 13. March 2015, 19:25: Message edited by: Cod ]

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Welease Woderwick

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# 10424

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Zim did well and tried their best but, aided by a couple of dropped catches, it just wasn't enough. India and New Zealand both win 6/6.

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Uncle Pete

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SA slaughters Lanka innings - (After 113d run, they took 6 wickets, then proceeded in their chase to win by 9 wickets in 18 overs. [Eek!]

Sangakara got a very nice send off by all players at game end.

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Welease Woderwick

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Sadly Bangladesh didn't put up much of a fight - I wanted India to win but I also wanted a close match - hopefully we'll get that tomorrow between Australia and Pakistan. In this house we'll be cheering for the one that isn't Australia, mainly on principle.

[Biased]

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Evensong
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Pakistan all out for 213. Smittie looking even twitchier than normal!
#twitchybatsmanexhaustingtowatch

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Welease Woderwick

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# 10424

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No team can afford to drop as many catches as Pakistan did - at times it looked more like they were losing more than Australia was winning!

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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Carex
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237 against the Windies isn't bad. Especially since the other members of the team scored a few runs, too...
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Zappa
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yeah, it wasn't a bad effort

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