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Source: (consider it) Thread: The timeless Test - Everlasting cricket thread
Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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I can't believe how casual India are being!

Ah well, it's only a game...

...but dropped catches don't help!

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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Welease Woderwick

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Well, after India won by 9 wickets I suppose I should stop worrying about these things. So the final on Sunday will be India v. Pakistan - but I make no predictions, I just hope it is a good match...

...and India win!

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
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Well, Pakistan made an excellent 338/4 in their 50 overs, now we have to see if India can match that - I believe this is the highest ODI run chase attempted at The Oval.

Should be fun!

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
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India lost by a LOT!

180 runs but Pakistan so deserve it and they played some great cricket at The Oval this afternoon.

Can I go to bed now, please?

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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Imaginary Friend

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Cricket, eh? Bloody hell!

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
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A great innings by Joe Root but he has had a bit of luck, including not out from a stumping off a no ball!

It has been a tale of two captains: everything has gone right for Root but Dean Elgar has had a 'mare: missed catches, poor ground fielding, weird bowling changes, a general end-of-tour attitude and hasn't even got the overs in. I can think of Saffie captains who would have their teams running laps round the ground at 7am for that. I hope they don't let Mike Proctor near this bunch.

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Sandemaniac
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Another somewhat bizarre days play. England collapse early, made respectable by Stuart Borad and, of all things, a six from the Burnley Lara who has hit a mere 3 of them in 169 innings!

Then SA struggle to 214-5... and one of their bowlers picks up a suspension for telling Stokes to Eff off! I guess it could have been worse, could have been a bunch of fives...

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Imaginary Friend

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...And quite right too. It's a crying shame that poor, delicate little Ben Stokes should have to encounter such frightful language! I just hope he doesn't follow that beastly example and start using those words himself in the future!

But seriously, I think cricket needs to grow up about stuff like that. Rabada had just got out one of the most abrasive characters in the world game, and someone who he has a bit of history with. I think a quick "fuck off" is quite understandable in the circumstances and isn't to the detriment of the game.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
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I've read that Michael Vaughan (who can be a numpty) say that he can't recall a quick bowler who didn't swear at him. These stump microphones must have changed the game. The Saffies will have to learn to cuss in Afrikaans.

He reckons the pathetic over rate is far more of a problem and I agree.

[ 08. July 2017, 10:48: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Sioni Sais
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Hooray! A wicket! Something has happened.

That said Gary Balance replaces Keaton Jennings. Move along, nothing to see.

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Imaginary Friend

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I'm trying to work out the most likely way for England to stuff this one up. Any good ideas, or is just the obvious bat too slow, bowl in the wrong areas, stagger across the line for a draw scenario?

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
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I would suggest that South Africa could actually win this if England fail to score another 200 runs, leaving the better SA batsmen, especially Amla and De Cock to make hay.

I don't think a draw is on.

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Sioni Sais
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What a day it has been! England lose nine wickets for 114 (including 7-63 before lunch) and South Africa are now 28-4. Although SA need 300 runs it's far from over though as de Kock is still there.
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Imaginary Friend

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An exhilarating day, for sure. I'm a bit disappointed that the South Africans didn't put up more of a fight with the bat. Some of the commentators were saying that this is credit to the English top three for making it look easy, but I'm not so sure it's as simple as that. SA really need du Plessis back.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Hedgehog

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Cricket Novice here, and I could use a little help on understanding something.

The match in question was Sri Lanka v. Zimbabwe.
Sri Lanka 203-8 (50.0 overs)
Zimbabwe 204-7 (38.1 overs)

Okay, I get it that Zimbabwe won. I assume that, for this particular match, the maximum number of overs was 50 (because Sri Lanka was not "all out"). So, in 50 overs Sri Lanka scored 203 runs and had 8 men put out. By contrast, Zimbabwe scored 204 runs in only 38.1 overs (and, obviously, no need to play further) and had 7 men put out.

All of that I can grasp. What throws me is that the news summaries state that Zimbabwe "won by 3 wickets."

I am not sure where that number is coming from. I have a theory that it just means that, because they only had 7 out, they still had 3 men remaining before being "all out" and those are the "3 wickets." My problem with that theory is that it is not as if Sri Lanka was all out. If they had not used up the maximum numbers of overs they still had "2 wickets" left over themselves.

So, have patience with a newbie: what exactly is meant by "won by 3 wickets" in this situation?

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Imaginary Friend

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Yeah, you got it right - it means they had three wickets left when they got to the required score.

The only thing that matters for a game like this is how many runs the two teams have. So Sri Lanka could have been 203-0 or 203-9 but if Zimbabwe got to 204 then they win. In that sense, comparison of how many wickets the two teams had lost is meaningless.

The nomenclature goes back to The Olden Days™ when cricket did not have over limits. It is supposed to indicate how close the winning team was to not getting the runs. These days, perhaps a more useful number would be how many overs the team batting second had left, but for some reason, cricket has decided not to do that.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Hedgehog

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Thank you. It's nice to know I puzzled that out correctly.

Now a strategy question. So there is a Championship going on between Gloucestershire and Worcestershire (hereinafter "G" and "W"). So, 4 days set aside. Day 1, in their first innings, G scores 383-all out. That's fine. I understand that. Day 2, W's first innings, they get to "300-9 dec."

Now I have researched it enough to know that a team can "declare" an end to their batting "for strategic reasons." In this particular case, W was still trailing by 83 runs. And, okay, it seemed unlikely that they were going to get 83 more runs with one wicket left, but every little bit helps, right? So what was the strategic reason for foregoing their last wicket?

My guess is this: By declaring, apparently W made G start its second innings on Day 2. Not sure why, but I guess there was still daytime left to play some more? So was the theory that G would be tired after having been in the field all day and, if you made them start their second innings, you might be able to put some of them out easier than if they came back the next day all rested? I can't think of any other reason why W would declare while still behind by 83 runs.

If that was the theory, it seems to have failed spectacularly, as G went 20-0 before play was called on Day 2.

And how do they decide when to call play? Is there a pre-set time or is it just in the discretion of the match officials to say "We're tired. Stop now."?

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Sandemaniac
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That seems a fair guess to me, Hedgehog. Partly to give G an awkward forty minutes or so batting in the hope that W's bowlers can take a few wickets. The weather conditions may also have played a part - if it looked like suiting W's bowlers, for example, they might declare. Again, in the hope of getting a few wickets.

The other possibility is- kidology, if they know they are already ahead, then G might not try so hard to score runs.

As for the close of play... I think it's usually by time, there are supposed to be so many overs bowled in a day but, at least in Test matches, that doesn't happen very often.

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Imaginary Friend

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I think Sandemaniac is most likely right, but there is one rather boring explanation - if one of W's players was injured and couldn't bat, then I think that technically they would have to declare to end the innings.

But a more adventurous possibility is that W might also have been thinking about the total time left in the game. They would need to bowl G out and score enough runs to win the game with only two days left. If there was rain the weather forecast, this

This was a really rather risky move by W though, but looking at the Div 2 table, W really needed a win to keep the pressure up on Notts. So they were probably a bit more willing than normal to roll the dice.

As it turns out, G declared on 286-4, leaving W with a rear guard action to force the draw. They managed successfully (which, being a G supporter, makes me quite disappointed!) In some ways, this is one good thing about County cricket - in an international match, the captains would never be adventurous enough to do something like that.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I think Sandemaniac is most likely right, but there is one rather boring explanation - if one of W's players was injured and couldn't bat, then I think that technically they would have to declare to end the innings.


There is also the possibility that the last one or two batsmen really aren't very good at batting*. They are usually specialist bowlers. It is often worth declaring late in the day so that a side that has been fielding all day has to bat against bowlers who have been resting all day.

*I can think of a few!

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Hedgehog

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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
As it turns out, G declared on 286-4, leaving W with a rear guard action to force the draw. They managed successfully (which, being a G supporter, makes me quite disappointed!)

And this brings me to my next newbie question. What are the rules for a draw in that sort of situation? When the draw was announced or agreed to, W was still some runs behind. Was it a timing thing: that G recognized that they were not going to get W all out before the day ended? Or that the day, in fact, ended, before W could finish?

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Imaginary Friend

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Yeah, it's just timing. If they get to the end of day four with no winner then the game is a draw. This often means that the side batting fourth is batting "to save the game", i.e. to play out time and secure a draw. England end up doing this *a lot*. [Biased]

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Hedgehog

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Speaking of timing, it has been several hours now. Seriously, you all are going to make me start this conversation??? Ooooooookay.

England. Went from 199-6 to 205-all out. I know very little about cricket, but even I can tell that that is absolute garbage. Anybody care to offer comments, remembering that this is The Circus and not Hell?

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Speaking of timing, it has been several hours now. Seriously, you all are going to make me start this conversation??? Ooooooookay.

England. Went from 199-6 to 205-all out. I know very little about cricket, but even I can tell that that is absolute garbage. Anybody care to offer comments, remembering that this is The Circus and not Hell?

Yes, it is a bad show even when you note that the poorer batters go in at the end of the order. Above all it shows the impact of Joe Root - once he was out England's chance of getting to 300 vanished while the South Africans looked so much sharper, especially Morris & Maharaj, who hadn't looked much good before.
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Sandemaniac
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Well, that was embarrassing...

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Sioni Sais
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Quite. Another lower order collapse but the damage was done at the top where two batsmen, ironically from South Africa and Zimbabwe, had feet of clay and 5,6 and 7 look like one-day sloggers.

I suppose we should be grateful that our bowling and fielding isn't too shabby, but we need one more specialist batsman, as well as a couple of replacements.

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
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At what point can the Proteas call the Brits Chokers?

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
At what point can the Proteas call the Brits Chokers?

We didn't get within a mile of that. You have to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory to be called chokers.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Mr Clingford
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Like the Indian women?

Bloody hell! The England women did it!

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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.

If only.

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
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I was a bit disappointed but can sort of take comfort that it was a fairly close game.

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Jamat
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England vs SA
Pass mark for England day 1. 162/4
Real gutsy innings by Cook 82N/O?
Unbelievable movement on the wicket though. Looked almost unplayBle at times.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
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India look to be in a comfortable position against Sri Lanka in Galle - will they enforce the follow on?

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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Sioni Sais
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Never mind the scores: South Africa bowled 20 overs in the first hour and a half today. Even the West Indies with a nothing-but-pace attack in the seventies did better.

I don't think fines are enough. The only way to solve this is to affect the outcome of the match, eg, by adding runs to a batting side's total or removing batsmen before the innings at the other sides request. That would hurt!

I don't like it, but if they went about a proper job like this, they wouldn't be there long. It isn't even a hot day. And Maharaj has had a bowl.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Hedgehog

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Question time again. So the BBC report has this:
quote:
Roland-Jones then ripped through the South Africa top order as the Proteas slumped to 61-7 before closing on 126-8, still 28 runs shy of the follow-on target.
What is meant by a "follow-on target"?

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Sandemaniac
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The follow-on is one of the quirks of the game. Ina game of two innings per side, if a side batting first score heavily and the side batting second is bowled out for not many runs, the follow-on can be enforced.

What that means is that the side who batted first can choose to make their opponents bat again, immediately after their first innings has ended. When it can be enforced depends on the length of the game - in a test match, lasting five days, a team can be made to follow on if they do not get within 200 of their opponents. So today, where England made 353, South Africa must make at least 154 to ensure that England bat again.

However, enforcing the follow-on is optional - if Engalnd feel that the weather has changed to make batting easier, for example, or think their bowlers need a rest, they can choose not to enforce it, and just bat again. Just to really confuse, if the side following on overtake the other side's score, the opposition can bat again to try to win the game.

It's an odd and confusing thing that I'm not sure I've explained clearly! However, it's usually the death knell for a team - matches have been drawn when a team has followed on, but a side made to follow on has won just three times in test match history.

Here's the official version.

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Hedgehog

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Thanks. I found your explanation clear enough to follow.

I can see where this would be something that the team that batted first (and ran up an admirable numbers of runs) would do to prevent a draw by making the opposing team do both its innings without the first team using up valuable time with its own second innings (and having to decide whether to declare to save time).

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Jamat
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# 11621

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South Africa may not have to follow on but good for England if they can get last 2 wickets within the next 26 runs. I think they should do it. It has become unfashionable of late to enforce it of course but English have a great attack ATM on this pitch which may well flatten out later. They have barely raised a sweat. Big raps to Stokes and Cook. Really gutsy batting.
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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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Sri Lanka, in their second innings, now need to make 458 runs with 8 wickets remaining and just under 5 sessions to go - it is possible but, I think, HUGELY unlikely!

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What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Sri Lanka, in their second innings, now need to make 458 runs with 8 wickets remaining and just under 5 sessions to go - it is possible but, I think, HUGELY unlikely!

I agree. Not sure why India played so conservatively. If SL can salvage a draw it will be as good as a win now.

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Sandemaniac
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# 12829

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
South Africa may not have to follow on but good for England if they can get last 2 wickets within the next 26 runs.

That may depend on how many runs big Vern has left! He's third top scorer for SA after the first two tests, but how is he physically?

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424

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India won by over 300 runs in the end - why has enforcing the follow-on fallen out of fashion?

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Sipech
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# 16870

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Have made it to The Oval. Currently sat in row 6 of the OCS stand, with a bag of chocolate biscuits, wine gums and a couple of scotch eggs. Currently reading Spike Milligan while I wait for the final day's play to begin. [Big Grin]

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
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Baptist Trainfan
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You might need to eat and read fairly quickly, if you are to finish before the match does.
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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
You might need to eat and read fairly quickly, if you are to finish before the match does.

What a way to finish! A hatrick by Moeen Ali.
Congratulations England!
My hero in this is Cook, with the battling innings of 88 on the first day, but certainly this was a team effort.
Stokes is probably the player of the match!

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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Yeah, I think ex-Captain Cook's innings has been somewhat forgotten in the hubbub of what happened after. It was a very good knock indeed.

The next question is whether England will be hot or cold come Friday...

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Mr Clingford
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# 7961

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... depends if Cook stays in.

And if nos 2/3 can bat...

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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.

If only.

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Jamat
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# 11621

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Honours even on day 1 at Manchester?
England 260/6
Great Yorker in penultimate over to dismiss Stokes for 58 give RSA the edge perhaps?

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Honours even on day 1 at Manchester?
England 260/6
Great Yorker in penultimate over to dismiss Stokes for 58 give RSA the edge perhaps?

Yes, narrow advantage South Africa, even though they are missing their top bowler.
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Baptist Trainfan
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It would be nice to have a really tight game, the advantage swinging from one team to the other. Proper Test cricket!
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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
It would be nice to have a really tight game, the advantage swinging from one team to the other. Proper Test cricket!

Absolutely..as long as it swings the right way in the end!
Seriously though with 2 even teams like this, could go either way. I'm kinda missing Dale Steyn.

[ 05. August 2017, 00:08: Message edited by: Jamat ]

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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