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Source: (consider it) Thread: The timeless Test - Everlasting cricket thread
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Two out of three times you bat. The third time you look at the pitch, check out the weather, think about all the circumstances and bat.

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Human

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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I haven't seen any of it, just followed via apps. Marsh seems in my memory to have had an uneven career, so it is nice to see he has found some form.

What is up with the Poms? This is their first eleven, right? There hasn't been some terrible mistake?

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:

As you know, I'm a novice. But about Cook: two innings, nine runs. And he is the first batsman! Aren't you supposed to put a decent batter in the first spot...or am I missing the strategy here?

Since no one else responded...

Yes, a decent batsman is ideal. Cook may not be in form now, but he has had a really great career with the bat. He is good at something other than looking quite a bit like Henry Cavill.

The opener often has a tough job, as the shiny new ball is difficult to play. Particularly with a quality express or at least fast bowler steaming in and hurling it at you on a decent length. The opener has done their job when they take the shine off the ball by thumping it around a bit. But it does often mean that they don't stay around at the crease very long - the job requires them to strike, and as explained, the new ball isn't that easy to strike safely.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960

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To add to Dark Knight's explanation of the task of the opening bat, I would say that almost all batters are vulnerable to the first few balls they receive because they have to "get their eye in", i.e. adjust to how high and how fast the ball is bouncing off the wicket [which varies with each wicket and with weather] , and (often) to the extent to which the bowler is able to make the ball move sideways [ditto]. For this reason, bowlers used to reckon that (e.g.) for a great batter like Brian Lara, if you didn't get him out before he scored 10 runs, you wouldn't get a chance until he had scored at least 100. This adjustment is even harder for the first batter in an innings, as he has not had the chance to watch any other batters in action.

And in a comment on the state of the Test Match, one has to admire Steve Smith's sporting [foolish?] gesture to not enforce the follow on, and thus give the England bowlers a chance to make use of the ideal bowling conditions of the evening session on day 3. Result: Australia were 4 down for about 50 overnight, and look unlikely to make 150 in their second innings. But that would still leave England to make a record-breaking 350+ in their second innings to win the match.

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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
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You are not wrong, Tukai. Good Lord, the Aus team fell like flies spread with Mortein this arvo. [Ultra confused]

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
You are not wrong, Tukai. Good Lord, the Aus team fell like flies spread with Mortein this arvo. [Ultra confused]

And that despite eight batsmen getting into double figures and facing 25+ balls. To me that shows a combination of good persistent bowling an a pitch that isn't to be trusted.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Root is key. If we can get him out, anything is possible. If he stays, ENG are in with a chance.

[ 06. December 2017, 02:44: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960

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But as it happened:
(1) Root dismissed without adding to his overnight score.
(2) England lost the test before 'lunch' by more than 100 runs.

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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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Wow, through Day 3 and Australia is still in its first innings?

I may be misunderstanding the rules, but if the match doesn't finish by the close of business on Day 5, it is a draw, right? And I suppose Australia might try to run up a few runs, then declare and hope to put England out without giving up the lead before the end of Day 5...but surely that is not all that likely, is it?

Oh, and it was rude of me not to thank Dark Knight and Tukai for their explanations of the situation of the opening batsman. Very instructive and understandable. It bears a mild resemblance to a good lead-off hitter in baseball (who should try to work a long count so that the rest of the team gets to see what stuff the pitcher has before they get to bat).

I'm still working out the rules on the whole "new ball" thing. When does that happen? I know it is not on request, so I assume a certain number of overs must go by before you get a new ball? Or is it based on the number of runs scored?

--------------------
"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Tukai
Shipmate
# 12960

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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Wow, through Day 3 and Australia is still in its first innings?

(1)I may be misunderstanding the rules, but if the match doesn't finish by the close of business on Day 5, it is a draw, right?
(2) And I suppose Australia might try to run up a few runs, then declare and hope to put England out without giving up the lead before the end of Day 5...but surely that is not all that likely, is it?

(3) Oh, and it was rude of me not to thank Dark Knight and Tukai for their explanations of the situation of the opening batsman. Very instructive and understandable. It bears a mild resemblance to a good lead-off hitter in baseball (who should try to work a long count so that the rest of the team gets to see what stuff the pitcher has before they get to bat).

(4) I'm still working out the rules on the whole "new ball" thing. When does that happen? I know it is not on request, so I assume a certain number of overs must go by before you get a new ball? Or is it based on the number of runs scored?

Here are my answers to your perfectly sensible questions.
(1) yes, it's a draw if neither side has not won by the end of day 5. It used to happen quite often in test cricket, especially in places where it rains a lot, so that a whole day of play could lost (e.g. Manchester).
(2) It looks very like Australia is doing what you said, i.e. aiming to make more runs in one innings than England make in two. If that happens, Australia are said to "win by an innings".
(3) Our pleasure.
(4) The new ball can be taken after 80 overs, and usually is. Occasionally if the bowlers are going very well with the old ball (more common if they have two very good slow bowlers, which most teams do not) , the bowling side can keep going with the old ball. The choice is up to them.

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A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.

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Jamat
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# 11621

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England vsAustralia Ashes 3
Very disappointed in England's bowlers. Aussie fron liners have 10k on em. That's the difference.!

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Tukai
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# 12960

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Not to mention that England batting leaves something to be desired. Certainly none of them look to be in the same class as Steve Smith. Cook in particular is starting to look like Ponting in his last year: fine at county level but with his reactions slowed down just enough to make him vulnerable to top-level bowling, which unfortunately for him is what Australia are offering this year. Moeen also looks below his best, but England have few alternatives to him. Broad is also no longer a force batting (and worse) bowling anywhere other than in England.

A consolation may be that some of the younger players are coming on nicely. Bairstow is worth a place on his batting alone; maybe they should play someone else as wicketkeeper to free him up a bit more. Overton has tried hard and not looked out of place at this level; his injury is bad luck. Malan, Stoneman, and Vince (who cannot be blamed for dismissal to a freak ball from Starc) have all showed reasonable form.

--------------------
A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.

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Jamat
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# 11621

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Agree Cook has lost his mojo. Broad needs dropping but the big worry for England is captaincy. Root is not handling both. His batting has fallen away and he looks out of his depth as a captain.
I think they are missing Stokes but also one more express bowler. TBH Aussie got the rub of the green on day 5. Play should not have started because of pitch conditions.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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Congratulations to Australia. They really did keep the foot down on England's throat.

On the subject of Steve Smith being better than any of England's batsmen he does on one hand not have to face Hazlewood, Cummins & co but right now he is as good a batsman as I have seen. Ever. He certainly looks better than Ponting and he is (IMHO) a better captain because he doesn't have the same supporting cast (Langer, Hayden, Gilchrist, and two of the all-time great bowlers). Smith plus a decent bowling attack is carrying that side and he is doing so pretty easily.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Mr Clingford
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# 7961

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It's very disappointing. OZ are just outplaying us.

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Ne'er cast a clout till May be out.

If only.

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Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
TBH Aussie got the rub of the green on day 5. Play should not have started because of pitch conditions.

After sitting up for an hour reading, with rapt attention, live updates on the BBC page concerning people watching grass dry, I finally went to bed thinking that they would either not start at all, or start so late that a draw would be a certainty.

Which just goes to show that I still have a LOT to learn.

--------------------
"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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I have to admit, it was raining cats and dogs on Sunday, so I was surprised they got back on the pitch at all. Obviously it would have been better for England had they not.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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bib
Shipmate
# 13074

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Did someone say the word 'Ashes'? [Yipee]

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Did someone say the word 'Ashes'? [Yipee]

In our mouths if an English supporter.
Funny how cricket always favours home turf advantage.
Everyone plays better on their patch.

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Did someone say the word 'Ashes'? [Yipee]

In our mouths if an English supporter.
Funny how cricket always favours home turf advantage.
Everyone plays better on their patch.

Just as importantly, with their own ball. India use a ball made there while England use the Duke ball which retains its seam far longer than Australia's Kookaburra. It also has a bigger seam and (IIRC) takes a shine better and for longer which explains why Jimmy Anderson is twice the bowler in England than elsewhere and why England doesn't produce so many outright fast bowlers.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Jamat, I love that you went for the traditional English sacrificial lamb - the captain. [Razz] I think Australians go for the manager first.

I'm going to day three in Melbourne. I used to go to Boxing Day religiously, but I'm a bit too old for the Cricketers Arms "drink as much as you can before 10", and they don't have Bay 13 anymore. So these days I avoid the crowds, get my trannie and my binocs and sit in the shade.

I take along a mate in a wheelchair and we sink water and soft-drink all day long. The re-vamped G is great for the wheelchair-bound, with beautiful seats near the vendors, and a telly for the replays. This suits my mate down to the ground, as he would prefer to watch the cricket on telly. The bloke who sold me the tickets reckons we will have a view over the bowler's arm.

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Human

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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Jamat, I love that you went for the traditional English sacrificial lamb - the captain. [Razz] I think Australians go for the manager first.

I'm going to day three in Melbourne. I used to go to Boxing Day religiously, but I'm a bit too old for the Cricketers Arms "drink as much as you can before 10", and they don't have Bay 13 anymore. So these days I avoid the crowds, get my trannie and my binocs and sit in the shade.

I take along a mate in a wheelchair and we sink water and soft-drink all day long. The re-vamped G is great for the wheelchair-bound, with beautiful seats near the vendors, and a telly for the replays. This suits my mate down to the ground, as he would prefer to watch the cricket on telly. The bloke who sold me the tickets reckons we will have a view over the bowler's arm.

Good stuffSimontoad!
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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Boxing Day!

Warner is being Warner so far today.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Boxing Day!

Warner is being Warner so far today.

Indeed, Commentators are interesting. They are bemoaning conservative English field placing.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Here's an article on the morning of Boxing Day from the cricket journalist and author Catherine McGregor, who spied the Speaker of the House of Representatives lining up with the hoi poloi to get into the MCG. Ahh, Australia. Your egalitarianism sometimes brings tears to my eyes. (I'm sure both the Speaker and McGregor were lining up to get into the members [Smile] )

Catherine McGregor on the Boxing Day Test

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Human

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Good grief. I turn my head for half an hour, and Oz loses five wickets.

Keeping in mind my personal prejudice, as I think he's a tool - but is J Anderson anything other than the mostly spent force he appears to be in this series?

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:
Good grief. I turn my head for half an hour, and Oz loses five wickets.

Keeping in mind my personal prejudice, as I think he's a tool - but is J Anderson anything other than the mostly spent force he appears to be in this series?

Five hundred and twenty-one wickets must tell some kind of a story. He got his first five-wicket haul in Australia a couple of weeks ago. He also had nearly two years out of Test cricket thanks to an injury sustained as a result of England's then coach trying to change his action.
He might be getting on a bit and I doubt he'll manage more than another year, but he has this annoying habit of taking wickets by sheer bloody-mindedness.

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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

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[QUOTE]
Is J Anderson anything other than the mostly spent force he appears to be in this series?

Five hundred and twenty-one wickets must tell some kind of a story.
[QUOTE]

Wondered about this too. He seems to perform when conditions suit him. Can get swing and moves ball off seam consistently.

Good innings by Cook.

I think losing Stark could hurt Aussies.

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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SS - his record is really not the point, as my question is about his current form. The recent five-for is more relevant.

Certainly one can be a total knob and a great bowler at the same time. Just look at Shane Warne and Glenn McGrath.

Good to see Cook find some form. I have always quite liked him.

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Tukai
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# 12960

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quote:
Originally posted by Tukai:
Not to mention that England batting leaves something to be desired. Certainly none of them look to be in the same class as Steve Smith. Cook in particular is starting to look like Ponting in his last year: fine at county level but with his reactions slowed down just enough to make him vulnerable to top-level bowling, which unfortunately for him is what Australia are offering this year. [SNIP}

Looks like the verdict of myself (and most commentators) about Cook was a trifle premature, now that he's batted right through day 3 and scored 244 not out. Steve Smith looked set for yet another a chanceless century himself as he made batting look easy, until he uncharacteristically got out to a bad ball. The pitch is still a road , so he may make up for that lapse in the Australian second innings - and it looks as though he may need to do so if Australia are to avoid defeat.

--------------------
A government that panders to the worst instincts of its people degrades the whole country for years to come.

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Nah, this is heading for a draw, and was when you posted, Tukai. Rain has likely thwarted any chance of a face-saving English victory in this test.

Warner looks to have been replaced by a cautious, plodding clone of himself. But at least he is still in. He and Smith have kept things steady, when it wasn't raining.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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B***r

A couple of quick wickets give England some hope then it rains!

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Probably a draw. 4-14 presently. On Cook, the pitch is docile, but that didn't help most of his teammates.

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Human

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Jamat
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# 11621

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Draw is a fair outcome.
Smith batted superbly to save match.
Geoff Boycott..old cricketing ‘grinch’ that he is, commented that England lack a fit for purpose spinner.
Inclined to agree.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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One thing I noticed for the first time was people booing the achievements of the other side. England milestones, Cook achievements, there was an audible minority booing in the Southern Stand. Terrible business. If the player had made some sort of immoral decision, such as standing their ground when the umpire made a clear error then yes, boo away for the rest of the innings. Otherwise, honour the achievement.

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Human

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Cod
Shipmate
# 2643

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Anderson has taken his wickets at an average of about 16 this year. Hardly a spent force, and if the rest of England's bowlers had matched his efforts England wouldn't be 3 down.

They'd also not be 3 down if Stokes was playing. Seriously, how long does it really take to decide whether to charge a person with assault?

Posts: 4229 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829

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quote:
Originally posted by Cod:
Seriously, how long does it really take to decide whether to charge a person with assault?

As long as it's taking. SWMBO works for the police, she will confirm that. I think if the Crown Prosecution Service work to their target time, the decision will be due mid-January. You are talking services understaffed at all levels trying to work to targets, where the person dealing with it first - PC Plod - has to fit completing their paperwork in around their shifts, and anything else that comes up on that shift as well, so it was probably all over the intertubes long before the paperwork even reached an admin staffer's desk.

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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It's official, the MCG pitch was poor.

The BBC's report says that the ground authorities have two weeks to respond, which is about the time it would take for the pitch to deteriorate.

The proposed sanctions look useful: I'd like to see them applied at Lord's which has some sort of divine right to host test matches. FFS, the ground has a slope that wouldn't be tolerated anywhere else. Even the square slopes.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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I was just about to post that England were doing well so far in the SCG Test. Checked the app. All out for 346! They must have tumbled like skittles this morning. [Eek!]

Still, 346 is 346 - let us see if they can make a match of it.

Re Anderson - as SS pointed out, he has had one very good match in this series. Otherwise, he has displayed advanced powers of mediocrity. So no, Cod, if England had several Andersons they would probably not be any better off.

I have to say, and I may be wrong, that ISTM really Smitty is the difference between the sides. People continue to make stupid comparisons to the most dominant athlete in any sport through the twentieth century - Donald Bradman - and I continue to scrunch up my face in irritation when they do it. There is, as always, no comparison. What is evident is that he is the only transcendent player either side have at the moment. If England had one of him, they would not be down 3-0.

ETF writing a bit.

[ 05. January 2018, 02:47: Message edited by: Dark Knight ]

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So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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At last, it's over. That last innings was gruesome, and not just for Root's stomach. Still, there's only pyjama cricket to follow although it would be a pleasant surprise for our performance to be any better.

While Smith is the big difference, if you select a composite XI you can only make a solid case for two England players making it: Cook for Bancroft (although that has almost as much to do with Bancroft as with Cook) and Bairstow for Paine. Anderson is a possible for Hazlewood, but he would need to be having a good day.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Yes, that is fair.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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Meanwhile NZ flamed Pakistan in pyjama cricket - again. The soft pitch and outfield seems so far to be bewildering the Pakistanis. Wilkinson didn't altogether fire this time (went down to a blinder of a catch though) and Munro sank without a trace, but Guptill is back bigly and Taylor is looking good.

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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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aliehs
Shipmate
# 18878

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What you blokes need is a good cooling gallon of Pimms. Now, I know nothing about it, but...Our[Australia} commentators were of the opinion that the English side had been selected badly in terms of diversity of bowlers. I just love cricket, its' the only game I know where you can take your book , and read while nothing is happening except the fatuous commentary of the radio broadcasters on insider jokes. But when they say: He's bowling from the Cathedral end, they don't have to tell me it's Adelaide. Now those were the days. [Yipee]

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Now I see through a glass darkly. Maybe I should clean my specs.
sld2A

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Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869

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An interesting statistical analysis of Steve Smith's comparative ranking here ABC News
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870

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Well, that went a lot better than the Ashes did.

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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile

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Dark Knight

Super Zero
# 9415

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Maybe for you.

I'm happy for whoever wins pyjama cricket. Noone cares about it. Unless there is a World Cup on. Sometimes not even then.

--------------------
So don't ever call me lucky
You don't know what I done, what it was, who I lost, or what it cost me
- A B Original: I C U

----
Love is as strong as death (Song of Solomon 8:6).

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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829

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quote:
Originally posted by Dark Knight:

I'm happy for whoever wins pyjama cricket. Noone cares about it. Unless there is a World Cup on. Sometimes not even then.

I'd interpret that as sore losing, if it didn't sum up my view so well. It's better than no cricket at all, but it ain't the Real Thing.

AG

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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869

Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007  |  IP: Logged
aliehs
Shipmate
# 18878

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One day tests don't count. But I suppose England need some crumbs from the victors' table.

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Now I see through a glass darkly. Maybe I should clean my specs.
sld2A

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bib
Shipmate
# 13074

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Maybe Australia was being magnanimous in allowing the visitors a win. [Big Grin]

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

Posts: 1307 | From: Australia | Registered: Oct 2007  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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Two important factors:

- A batsman scored 180: you won't win many ODI's if someone does that, especially batting second.

- The extra restrictions on short-pitched bowling negate the faster Australian bowlers.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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