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Source: (consider it) Thread: The beautiful game - the boys are back
South Coast Kevin
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I share all your frustrations with FIFA's shenanigans but, just to cheer you up, have a read of this. Mr Ilyumzhinov has been in charge of the World Chess Federation for the last 19 years, treating it as his own personal plaything and allegedly buying the votes of many small countries' chess federations with gifts of various kinds.

Chess is my other great sporting (sporting-ish, I know...) love along with football, so this state of affairs hacks me right off!

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Oscar the Grouch

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Yeh. But I doubt that there's as much money sloshing around in chess as there is in footie....

What we need at the moment is a Packer initiative. Money talks, so let's have a TV company offering to buy exclusive rights on a non-FIFA organised tournament.

(I can't believe I've just recommended copying Kerry Packer!) [Eek!]

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Yeh. But I doubt that there's as much money sloshing around in chess as there is in footie....

What we need at the moment is a Packer initiative. Money talks, so let's have a TV company offering to buy exclusive rights on a non-FIFA organised tournament.

(I can't believe I've just recommended copying Kerry Packer!) [Eek!]

From what I have seen of international football I reckon it is dying on its feet. The conflict of interests between club and country is such that before long the big clubs are going to form an international circus that will play, say, eight tournaments a year around the world, with the top teams going into a final series. The national leagues will become qualifying competitions for this World Club Championship and matches between nations will revert to a friendly rivalry.

Packer would have loved it, the club owners will get into it too, and it will be syndicated worldwide.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
From what I have seen of international football I reckon it is dying on its feet. The conflict of interests between club and country is such that before long the big clubs are going to form an international circus that will play, say, eight tournaments a year around the world, with the top teams going into a final series. The national leagues will become qualifying competitions for this World Club Championship and matches between nations will revert to a friendly rivalry.

Packer would have loved it, the club owners will get into it too, and it will be syndicated worldwide.

I think you're right. It is clear that for most players these days, club wins out over country every time. Alex Ferguson was probably the most blatant at achieving this for Man Utd. Very few of his players ever really performed at international level in the same way that they did at club level. "Don't come back with an injury, or I'll make your life hell" seems to have been the thing he drummed into everyone.

It is also interesting to see the rise in recent years of these pre-season tournaments, where top teams play each other in strange countries. That's not about preparation for a new season - it's about money.

I'm wondering if the 2022 World Cup might not be a tipping point. If FIFA don't overturn this and insist that it takes place in the winter, I can see some clubs refusing to let players go. And once a couple do, others would follow.

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Sioni Sais
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Yes, Qatar could well do it.

Meanwhile we've seen some queer results in the Premier League. Everton scored three, which you would think would be enough, but not against Chelsea who scored six! We need to look at our defence and not just at the back four.

Never mind though, City lost (albeit to Stoke who I despise, mostly because of their manager) and Moneybags United still can't win serious matches.

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pjl
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watched Man City yesterday.

Abysmal to say the least

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Sir Kevin
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Still ahead of the Goonies, those feckless losers! They're not even in the top six!

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LeRoc

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Yes! FC Groningen beat Ajax 2–0 at home today! After 4 games, we're in second place now, behind PSV.

The team always has mixed results. Today they beat Ajax, last week they lost 3–0 against a relatively weak team. We'll see. But today's result is very nice!

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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by pjl:
watched Man City yesterday.

Abysmal to say the least

I watched most of that game too, and while I wouldn't go so far as to call them abysmal, they were definitely not their usual selves.

Meanwhile, Chelsea and Everton produced a hilarious nine goal thriller at Goodison. Chelsea eventually came out on top, although I'm not really sure they deserved to. Bad defending let both sides down, the refereeing was atrocious, but there was also a lot of really nice attacking play from both sides. Eto'o's header was sublime, the move ending with Mirallas' volley which Courtois just managed to push onto the post and away was sumptuous, and John Obi Mikel pulled out a naughty little backheel to play Diego Costa in for the final goal. Early contender for game of the season, I think.

To top the day, Liberty and I tried a new pub to watch the game, and not only did they have Fuller's beers on tap (London Pride is distinctly better than most Swedish offerings!) but they were also serving it from a proper pump!! That's a real rarity here.

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deano
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Falcao

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quetzalcoatl
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I'm baffled why he would come to a club without CL; still that attack is beginning to look tasty. Pity about the defence.

Very strong rumours that RVP will have to have an op.

[ 01. September 2014, 09:53: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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Imaginary Friend

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Looks like United are going to be playing 1-5-4 for the rest of the season.

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Oscar the Grouch

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quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
(Message to Danny Welbeck. Get away from Utd now. At the right team, you might develop into the decent (even world class) striker that you showed signs of a couple of years ago. At Utd, you'll just fester until they decide you're no longer wanted and then it will be too late.)

And lo! Welbeck to Arsenal!

I reckon this could be good for both player and club. Arsenal get a striker who has shown signs of being very good and who is also not going to take 12 months to get accustomed to the Premier League.

Welbeck will get the chance to play regularly (and play in the Champions League!) and should benefit from being under the watchful eye of the Professor. If he doesn't shape up now, he really won't have any excuses. I think this could prove to be as significant a move as Sturridge to Liverpool. I quite like Welbeck and I really hope that he kicks on and proves himself to be an international level striker.

(Also - if he starts banging in goals for fun, it will make Van Gaal, Woodward et al at Utd look stupid. And that's always nice. ABU!)

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deano
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I am fed up with internationals disrupting the Premiership. I want to see our new players, not a tired old England friendly.

I would quite happily scrap the international competitions and just have club matches.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I am fed up with internationals disrupting the Premiership. I want to see our new players, not a tired old England friendly.

I would quite happily scrap the international competitions and just have club matches.

And see Moneybags Utd lose again? As an Evertonian I'm glad for the break. We usually start slowly but this season's is poor even by our standards.

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deano
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I am fed up with internationals disrupting the Premiership. I want to see our new players, not a tired old England friendly.

I would quite happily scrap the international competitions and just have club matches.

And see Moneybags Utd lose again? As an Evertonian I'm glad for the break. We usually start slowly but this season's is poor even by our standards.
I know. The last time we failed to win our first three matches we had a bad season. Oh, hang on! I think we might have won a minor trophy like the European Cup, and the Premiership!

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quetzalcoatl
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Just to wish Danny good luck in his new club. Many Man Utd fans feel sad he has gone, as he has been here since he was eight years old; I think also he's the last Mancunian. Still, football is a restless old game!

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Sioni Sais
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Won't Welbeck have to learn French to fit in at Arsenal?

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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
We usually start slowly but this season's is poor even by our standards.

I think that's a bit harsh on yourselves. You gave Arsenal a proper run for their money, and anything could have happened in the game against us. I'm sure you'll be fine.

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
We usually start slowly but this season's is poor even by our standards.

I think that's a bit harsh on yourselves. You gave Arsenal a proper run for their money, and anything could have happened in the game against us. I'm sure you'll be fine.
I am too, but I'm proper pissed off. We let Arsenal off a great big hook. I suppose I shouldn't be surprised after such a poor pre-season (P5, W0, D1, L4). Nothing's going our way at the moment so any time out is a Good Thing. 2014-15 season Mk 2 is eagerly awaited.

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deano
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Poor so far. You know what England need? A falcao, or a Di Maria, or a Mata, or. Van Persie, or a Rooney... Er... Wait.... No.... Just a sec?

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Oscar the Grouch

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I find it amazing that Rooney, who has played like a 4th Division has-been for months (& I've seen enough of those over the years to know one when I see it), is now captain of Utd AND England. I don't care about Utd, but as far as England are concerned, the best thing would be to drop Rooney altogether. It would be a travesty of highest proportions if he ended up beating Lineker's scoring record.

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Sir Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Looks like United are going to be playing 1-5-4 for the rest of the season.

I thought 4-4-2 was the preferred formation for most sides...

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, Rooney looks like a spare prick at a wedding. He should be dropped, but presumably won't be.

Same at Man Utd actually.

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Imaginary Friend

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quote:
Originally posted by Sir Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
Looks like United are going to be playing 1-5-4 for the rest of the season.

I thought 4-4-2 was the preferred formation for most sides...
In 1998 perhaps. The most common these days is 4-2-3-1, with the wide players in the '3' tracking back to help out defensively. Another common one is 4-3-3, but that doesn't have much natural width so you need the right players to make it work. Interestingly, several teams (including United, QPR, and occasionally Hull) are trying some variation on 3-5-2 this year. At least, three centre halves and wing backs seems to be making a comeback although I don't understand how that works in the Premiership where most teams play a lone striker. You've then got three against one, but lose a man in midfield. But perhaps I'm missing something.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
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I have noticed in recent years that more teams change formation during a game. Typically this is from one up front to two. There are more assymetric formations nowadays, making use of one's own skilled players and/or weaknesses in the opposition (cf Everton's demolition of Man City a few years ago: who ever thought Milner could play full-back???).

[ 04. September 2014, 10:15: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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Sir Kevin
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4-4-2 works well for the under-12 lads when I am the PE coach. If they are real lucky and don't take too long choosing up sides, they get 45 minutes of play...

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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An die Freude
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From what I hear, 4-4-2 is the simplest one to learn to play in. The positions take relatively little specialized skills and you can move around on the positions a little as a player without being completely lost. They all need good general skills, which is easy to pick up for young players or good as practice. When you have specialized skills they can at times be better utilized in odd formations where you build your way out of the weaknesses of your squad's skills, whereas 4-4-2 is probably still quite alright for most players.

Of course, there is plenty of intricacies that you can dig deep into, (and websites like this one do) but I'd say 4-4-2 remain the basics with a good, reasonably equal division of the spaces for the various players. But it's true that for pros it's getting increasingly impopular, not least because it's relatively easy to counter by outnumbering the central midfield with a 4-2-3-1 squad giving you one more player to go around there and defend and attack with more power.

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Sioni Sais
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England did well to beat Switzerland especially with four players out of position:

Stones - isn't a full back
Wilshere - doesn't give any assurance ahead of the central defenders (but lasted 90 minutes!)
Henderson - is a central player, not wide
Jones - shouldn't have been on the pitch at all.

Looks like England need a right-back, so Stones can move to the centre alongside Gary Cahill. I'd like to see him develop a bit physically though.

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deano
princess
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
England did well to beat Switzerland especially with four players out of position:

Stones - isn't a full back
Wilshere - doesn't give any assurance ahead of the central defenders (but lasted 90 minutes!)
Henderson - is a central player, not wide
Jones - shouldn't have been on the pitch at all.

Looks like England need a right-back, so Stones can move to the centre alongside Gary Cahill. I'd like to see him develop a bit physically though.

I only watched the highlights because there is no way I'm wasting two hours of my life watching England, so I probably got a distorted view of the match. It seemed to me that Danny Welbeck's decision making seemed poor, Cahill had a good game and we did look a bit more pacy than in recent matches.

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Imaginary Friend

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Personally, I spend every international break with my fingers and toes crossed that Chelsea's players all get back to Cobham unhurt.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It seemed to me that Danny Welbeck's decision making seemed poor.

Hasn't he just moved to a side in the Champions League.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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deano
princess
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It seemed to me that Danny Welbeck's decision making seemed poor.

Hasn't he just moved to a side in the Champions League.
Yep. As a temp. For which we received £16 million. It isn't much, but it will probably pay the rent on Falcao's house for a couple of months.If Welbeck turns into a top, top player we'll buy him back later on. We're very wealthy and can do that.

But I'm on about the wasted opportunity when he neither shot at goal, nor put in a decent pass to Rooney after his nice little flick put him past the Swiss defender. That was bad. His goals were little more than standing still whilst the ball was bounced off him.

As I say, he could develop into something better though, which is why we've let him go off to a club where he's got less competition for places. It was either Arsenal or Hull. Six of one, half a dozen of the other if you ask me.

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Sir Kevin
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Bloody hell! I still do not seem to be able to find Spurs on TV here in the western US. They were on last season. The programmers must all be Arsenal Goonies. What's up with that? Our record is better than theirs at this point in time: at a draw for fourth place with two other sides if I am reading the stats correctly. Gunners in seventh!

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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Imaginary Friend

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Sir Kevin, this website might help. It seems your lot can be viewed streaming on the internet via NBC this weekend.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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deano
princess
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
It seemed to me that Danny Welbeck's decision making seemed poor.

Hasn't he just moved to a side in the Champions League.
...and apparantly only because his new manager was out of the country when he signed and couldn't stop the deal going through! [Killing me]

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Imaginary Friend

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# 186

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I don't think that was what Wenger was saying, because he also said that he sanctioned the move and was very keen on Welbeck coming.

I think the point was he was claiming that if he had been in north London on Jim White Day, then the opportunity for the move would never have arisen. Now, I don't understand how that works, but there you have it.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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I think Welbeck will do well at Arsenal; there are some questions about his goal power, as the stats reveal, but I expect Wenger to help him a lot in this regard, and also the Arsenal style of play will help him. His outfield play is very good of course.

It was crazy for him to stay at a team in fourth spot as striker, or even fifth. Hopefully, he won't be sitting on the bench a lot at Arsenal.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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deano
princess
# 12063

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quote:
Originally posted by Imaginary Friend:
I don't think that was what Wenger was saying, because he also said that he sanctioned the move and was very keen on Welbeck coming.

I think the point was he was claiming that if he had been in north London on Jim White Day, then the opportunity for the move would never have arisen. Now, I don't understand how that works, but there you have it.

That's one - very charitable - way of interpreting Wenger's comments.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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Did you listen to the press conference, or just read the one short quote? It was on 5Live and I heard it on their Football Daily podcast this morning (starts at about 1 min 30 in). The journalist asks several questions about the transfer and why Wenger was in Rome that day. Wenger answers somewhat cryptically, but the clear implication (not the charitable interpretation) of the exchange is that Wenger was in favour of the transfer, and that it only happened because he wasn't in London, not behind his back while he was away.

Look, I'm as gutted as you that the facts get in the way of what would be a hilarious story of Arsenal's incompetence. But that's how it is.

God, I hate standing up for Wenger!

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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Louis van Gaal was quoted yesterday saying "Welbeck didn't score enough goals" which sounds like he was in full possession of the facts. That or he's trying to put a spin on it.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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deano
princess
# 12063

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Sorry, did you say something? I though you said something. Must have misheard. Sorry.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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Hey, steady.

Even Spurs put four past QPR recently. And they're shit.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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deano
princess
# 12063

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Oh, have QPR lost? Oh dear. Who beat them?

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492

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Spurs are not shite: we are still ahead of the arseholes!

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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deano
princess
# 12063

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Alan Pardew: Newcastle manager backed by club owner Mike Ashley

The backing of the chairman! He'll be gone by the end of the week.

So, will it be Moyes, Bruce or Pulis? Any other names in the frame? I think Pulis myself.

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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It's traditional for the board or the chsirman, or these days the owner, to give their backing then sack the maan after one more poor result.

I doubt Pulis will take it. He left Palace because of a dispute over transfers and making cash available. Ashley also interferes too much for his liking. I reckon Moyes will take the Raangers job when they get back in the top flight north of the border. Bruce is your man, despite or possibly because of his comments on the possibility of his taking the job.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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Just a couple of hours until Chelsea start their European campaign. Buzzing.

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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Imaginary Friend

Real to you
# 186

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...And Didier Drogba is in the starting eleven. This only gets better!!

Who let the Drogs out
Who who who who who...

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"We had a good team on paper. Unfortunately, the game was played on grass."
Brian Clough

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deano
princess
# 12063

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What a pity Liverpool have missed the transfer window. It seems they could do with strengthening their squad.

[Killing me]

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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot

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