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Source: (consider it) Thread: Shake it all about: Brexit thread II
Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I don't think we have the means to make war or enforce peace independently nowadays. As you say, this is just as well.

Only so long as nobody decides to make war against us.
Any examination of history will show that Britain was (and remains) far more often the aggressor. It's probably good for the world that Britain doesn't have the military force it once had, because too often we succumbed to using it unwisely.
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Doc Tor
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We still do.

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Improbable Botany

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Any examination of history will show that Britain was (and remains) far more often the aggressor.

Maybe, maybe not. We certainly weren't the aggressor in the World Wars, the Falklands, the First Gulf War or Kosovo.

If you go back much further than the World Wars it becomes more difficult to judge, because most of the conflicts Britain fought back then were against rebelling colonies. Who gets termed the aggressor in such a conflict?

quote:
It's probably good for the world that Britain doesn't have the military force it once had, because too often we succumbed to using it unwisely.
You make it sound like Britain is the only country in the world that has ever pursued military expansion and/or empire building. Shit, Russia is doing it right now.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Jane R
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Marvin:
quote:
If you go back much further than the World Wars it becomes more difficult to judge, because most of the conflicts Britain fought back then were against rebelling colonies. Who gets termed the aggressor in such a conflict?
Is that actually a serious question?

If you are really interested in learning more about the history of British aggression, I suggest you read this book

[ 05. May 2017, 10:46: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
If you are really interested in learning more about the history of British aggression

I'm not. All this sort of shit is just one more way for people to go on about how shit Britain is, was and will forever be unless it signs away its sovereignty to paragons of virtue like Germany, France, Spain and Italy, none of whom would ever dream of being aggressive towards the rest of the world.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
If you are really interested in learning more about the history of British aggression

I'm not. All this sort of shit is just one more way for people to go on about how shit Britain is, was and will forever be unless it signs away its sovereignty to paragons of virtue like Germany, France, Spain and Italy, none of whom would ever dream of being aggressive towards the rest of the world.
<my italics>
And there we have it. Marvin isn't interested in learning more about the history of British aggression. If he doesn't want to find out why people have a different view to that which he has then we have come to a dead end.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
I'm not. All this sort of shit is just one more way for people to go on about how shit Britain is, was and will forever be unless it signs away its sovereignty to paragons of virtue like Germany, France, Spain and Italy, none of whom would ever dream of being aggressive towards the rest of the world.

Yeah, why not sign away membership a union of equals and instead replace it with free trade deals which only benefit tax-dodging multinational corporations. Great idea.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If you go back much further than the World Wars it becomes more difficult to judge, because most of the conflicts Britain fought back then were against rebelling colonies. Who gets termed the aggressor in such a conflict?

I think you'll find the clue is in the word 'colonies'... [Disappointed]

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Improbable Botany

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Marvin isn't interested in learning more about the history of British aggression.

Anyone who had an education knows about the history of human aggression. In which Britain certainly took part. But it doesn't prevent many of us having on balance a positive view of our national history and a love of being British.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Marvin isn't interested in learning more about the history of British aggression.

Anyone who had an education knows about the history of human aggression. In which Britain certainly took part. But it doesn't prevent many of us having on balance a positive view of our national history and a love of being British.
All of which shouldn't prevent us from learning more. It's the unwillingness to learn more so as to appreciate the point of view others may have that makes me despair.

[ 05. May 2017, 11:46: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Jane R
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PaulTH:
quote:
Anyone who had an education knows about the history of human aggression. In which Britain certainly took part. But it doesn't prevent many of us having on balance a positive view of our national history and a love of being British.
I hope you are not suggesting that those of us who criticise our government's actions love our country less than you do.

I love my country. I am not always proud of it. But it's because I love it that I get so angry when I see politicians who claim to represent me behaving like a bunch of pillocks.

Furthermore, "having an education" does not guarantee an understanding of "the history of human aggression" as you put it. All countries use their education systems to teach history from their own point of view. Some teach a more biased view than others. The only way of getting a completely unbiased view of your country's history is to read all the original source documents (in whatever languages they were written in) and all the major secondary sources. This is unlikely to happen in schools.

Michael Gove's proposals for reform to the National Curriculum for history in 2013 were considered controversial at the time and were extensively rewritten. The emphasis on 20th century history, especially on Nazi Germany and the Second World War, encourages us to wallow in the Glorious Past and view the Germans as enemies (they've moved on since then, but a significant minority in Britain evidently have not).

When I was at school in the 1970s I was taught 20th century history, but we didn't stop at the Second World War; we also studied the 1950s and 60s and learned about the origins of the EU.

[ 05. May 2017, 12:28: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's the unwillingness to learn more so as to appreciate the point of view others may have that makes me despair.

I don't need to learn more to appreciate their view. They think Britain (or more accurately England) is utterly and irredeemably shit and can only possibly be improved by being yoked to the whims of other countries. Those countries somehow not being utterly and irredeemably shit despite having done plenty of things that were just as bad as (or worse than) anything Britain has done.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
...view the Germans as enemies (they've moved on since then...

Yes, they've decided to use political means to unite the continent under their rule rather than military ones.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's the unwillingness to learn more so as to appreciate the point of view others may have that makes me despair.

I don't need to learn more to appreciate their view. They think Britain (or more accurately England) is utterly and irredeemably shit and can only possibly be improved by being yoked to the whims of other countries. Those countries somehow not being utterly and irredeemably shit despite having done plenty of things that were just as bad as (or worse than) anything Britain has done.
If anything ever needed to be said to justify the opinion you accuse others having of Britain, then you have just said it!

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Yes, they've decided to use political means to unite the continent under their rule rather than military ones.

Why Marvin, why not use some xenophobia, then we'll have the full set of baseless idiotic Tory claims on this thread.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
When I was at school in the 1970s I was taught 20th century history, but we didn't stop at the Second World War; we also studied the 1950s and 60s and learned about the origins of the EU.

My 1980s O level history was also 20th century - and included Vietnam, Suez and other events into the 70s. Part of the course work was a project working through source materials (newspaper reports, some diaries and the like) on a (small part of) modern history - in our case, that was Biaffra. So, it is possible to teach not only what happened, but give pupils the ability to assess events. But, perhaps the more modern emphasis on equating education with being able to pass exams has squashed those aspects of the curriculum.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
...view the Germans as enemies (they've moved on since then...

Yes, they've decided to use political means to unite the continent under their rule rather than military ones.
If you feel like that, you'd have to agree it's the 'will of the people' that we let them do it.

All we need now is a shot of May at a windy airport, clutching at a sheet of A4...

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Improbable Botany

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
It's the unwillingness to learn more so as to appreciate the point of view others may have that makes me despair.

I don't need to learn more to appreciate their view. They think Britain (or more accurately England) is utterly and irredeemably shit and can only possibly be improved by being yoked to the whims of other countries. Those countries somehow not being utterly and irredeemably shit despite having done plenty of things that were just as bad as (or worse than) anything Britain has done.
If anything ever needed to be said to justify the opinion you accuse others having of Britain, then you have just said it!
Pointing out that other countries have done things that were just as shit as - if not worse than - the things Britain has done is that bad, is it?

Honestly, I don't mind you hating the fact that Britain had an Empire that wasn't very good for the people in the countries it colonised. Just don't go suggesting that we're somehow alone in that. Shit, even Belgium got in on the act!

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
...view the Germans as enemies (they've moved on since then...

Yes, they've decided to use political means to unite the continent under their rule rather than military ones.
If you feel like that, you'd have to agree it's the 'will of the people' that we let them do it.
Not any more, it's not. Not for Britain, anyway.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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fletcher christian

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I must confess I find the raw xenophobia on show here to be shocking. It does put the whole Brexit sham in its correct context though. It's just sad that political decisions are made in the realm of hatred and astounding ignorance.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I must confess I find the raw xenophobia on show here to be shocking. It does put the whole Brexit sham in its correct context though. It's just sad that political decisions are made in the realm of hatred and astounding ignorance.

Yes, I'm always amazed by English nationalism, and its poison. Also sheer bloody ignorance. I was talking to a Brexit fan, who said triumphantly, 'we're going to cut our ties with Europe'. Of course, if we did that, we would end up eating grass.

The Tories tend to harvest it well, 'angels in marble' and so on. (Disraeli-speak for working class Tories). A bitter harvest, though.

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no path

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I must confess I find the raw xenophobia on show here to be shocking.

Fine. Britain is utterly and irredeemably shit, and any attempt to suggest otherwise is xenophobia.

No other country in the history of the world has ever done anything bad, and any attempt to suggest otherwise is xenophobia.

Britain is a uniquely evil nation that must be eradicated as a political and cultural entity, and any attempt to suggest otherwise is xenophobia.

Germany is a martyr to the cause of European unity that would never even dream of overruling the policies of the elected government of another EU member to further its own economic interests, and any attempt to suggest otherwise is xenophobia.

Did I miss anything?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was talking to a Brexit fan, who said triumphantly, 'we're going to cut our ties with Europe'. Of course, if we did that, we would end up eating grass.

It's amazing we survived so long before joining the EU, really. Grass must be more nutritious than we realised.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was talking to a Brexit fan, who said triumphantly, 'we're going to cut our ties with Europe'. Of course, if we did that, we would end up eating grass.

It's amazing we survived so long before joining the EU, really. Grass must be more nutritious than we realised.
But we had ties with Europe before the EU, I remember my dad used to travel to Holland, to fix their textile looms. But if we abandon EU regulations now, our trade will may well be choked.

The govt is aware of this, hence the talk of 'frictionless' trade. 'Cutting ties' is the talk of nutty and ignorant people.

[ 05. May 2017, 15:13: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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no path

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I must confess I find the raw xenophobia on show here to be shocking.

Fine. Britain is utterly and irredeemably shit, and any attempt to suggest otherwise is xenophobia.

No other country in the history of the world has ever done anything bad, and any attempt to suggest otherwise is xenophobia.

Britain is a uniquely evil nation that must be eradicated as a political and cultural entity, and any attempt to suggest otherwise is xenophobia.

Germany is a martyr to the cause of European unity that would never even dream of overruling the policies of the elected government of another EU member to further its own economic interests, and any attempt to suggest otherwise is xenophobia.

Did I miss anything?

Relevance to what is actually being discussed?

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Honestly, I don't mind you hating the fact that Britain had an Empire that wasn't very good for the people in the countries it colonised.

Hold on a sec. Aren't you claiming that Britain is uniquely evil and no other country has ever exploited colonized countries here? That's your reaction to anyone else saying anything remotely critical of British colonialism/imperialism. What's the standard on how much anyone is allowed to be critical of past British imperialism? Is it forbidden unless you also include a complete analysis of all imperial powers throughout all of human history? Or are you arguing that imperialism is okay as long as everyone else is doing it too?

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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quetzalcoatl
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I think Marvin missed the false dichotomy.

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no path

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
What's the standard on how much anyone is allowed to be critical of past British imperialism?

Avoiding the suggestion that we're somehow unique in having an imperialist past. Honestly, that was the very next line of my post - you must have read it in order to delete it from your reply.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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Posted by Lilbuddha:
quote:

Relevance to what is actually being discussed?

There is no relevance. It's a schoolyard tactic employed to deflect the criticism of repulsive xenophobia.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I was talking to a Brexit fan, who said triumphantly, 'we're going to cut our ties with Europe'. Of course, if we did that, we would end up eating grass.

It's amazing we survived so long before joining the EU, really. Grass must be more nutritious than we realised.
Well, since I can just about remember that time, I have to agree with your analysis. We ended up becoming a successful, pluralist, tolerant nation inside the EU. Now we look like we're going to throw that all away by leaving it.

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Improbable Botany

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Well, since I can just about remember that time, I have to agree with your analysis.

You can just about remember the entire history of the UK prior to EU membership? Wow, you're older than you look [Biased]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It's a schoolyard tactic employed to deflect the criticism of repulsive xenophobia.

I refute the notion that pointing out that Britain is hardly alone in having a history of imperialism constitutes "repulsive xenophobia".

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Yes. Yes I am. And infinitely wise, too.

Leaving the EU is a terrible, terrible mistake. We'll undo it in 20 years when that's finally been acknowledged. Hopefully I'll still be around for that.

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Improbable Botany

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Leaving the EU is a terrible, terrible mistake. We'll undo it in 20 years when that's finally been acknowledged. Hopefully I'll still be around for that.

You think the rest of the EU will have decided to forgive and forget Brexit by then? It's more likely they'll have concluded that De Gaulle was right all along.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Leaving the EU is a terrible, terrible mistake. We'll undo it in 20 years when that's finally been acknowledged. Hopefully I'll still be around for that.

You think the rest of the EU will have decided to forgive and forget Brexit by then? It's more likely they'll have concluded that De Gaulle was right all along.
No, which is why when we negotiate re-entry to the EU there aren't going to be any rebates or other special deals on the table. The EU has bent over backwards to keep us in the club (because it's good for the EU as well as the UK), they aren't going to be disposed to do so again to let us back in. Of course, it won't be the same UK then anyway - Northern Ireland will have united with the south and be back in the EU, Scotland would have finally said we have had enough of Westminster governments using us as a pawn in their political games and gained independence. Even London may be seeking a way to break away from the rest of the UK and attempt to regain some standing as a financial centre (with the UK Parliament abandoning Westminster for some cheap concrete block elsewhere, as they wouldn't be able to afford anything else).

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320

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You talk as if membership of the EU has given us unlimited benefits. I beg to differ. Its closed bureaucracy has set it on a path of long term economic decline. The Euro has locked countries like Greece and Italy into a cycle of zero growth, stagnation and mass youth unemployment. It seems to be unreformable. And De Gaule was right. The British, whose history has always been to trade on the high seas, could never be good Europeans. Our different vision of what the EU ought to be has made us habitual moaners who have sought opt out after opt out. Federalism floats very few boats this side of the channel. I have always hated the whole rotten edifice. I voted Remain due to Project Fear. But I'm not sorry we're leaving.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
You talk as if membership of the EU has given us unlimited benefits.

Well, of course there aren't unlimited benefits. Nothing has unlimited benefits. But, there are considerable benefits of EU membership that a minority of the UK population has thrown away out of nothing more substantial than racist pique (with the blind obedience of larger numbers of people deluded by their lies).

quote:
Its closed bureaucracy has set it on a path of long term economic decline.
Which is why the Eurozone, and most EU nations outside the Eurozone, have been enjoying economic growth over the last 5+ years while the UK economy has stagnated. And, why when the UK decided to get out of the EU it was found that our bureaucracy would need to expand by more than the entire European Commission to handle all the complexities of international trade, standardisation etc. The same number of people for one nation as was needed for 28 (with multiple languages and legal codes to complicate things), yes incredibly bureaucratic and inefficient.

I voted Remain for the benefits of EU membership, including:
  • Freedom of movement
  • Single Market
  • Cooperation on environmental, consumer, worker protection
  • A European Court of Justice
  • European institutions that bring people together so that the sum is greater than the parts - European Medicines Agency, CERN, EURATOM, ESA and countless others
  • Structural funds to assist the poorer parts of Europe to improve their economies and social conditions
And, more besides.

Deny that any of that list is not good for all the people of Europe, and in some cases (eg: environmental protection) beyond, including the people of the UK. Name one single benefit of leaving the EU. IMO there are simply no benefits of leaving, and as has been said Brexit is a massive mistake that as a nation we will rapidly regret and seek to correct by returning to the EU at the first opportunity.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Callan
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# 525

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I voted Remain because of the Single Market, because the inevitable acrimonious row with our erstwhile partners will undermine NATO, because of the Irish Peace Process - now under threat, and because the thought of how smug the likes of Farage, Hopkins and the rest of the thinly veiled fascists would be if they'd won. Three concrete achievements of Margaret Thatcher, Ernest Bevin and Tony Blair and John Major (and one insubstantial but highly gratifying side effect) all thrown away for piss and wind offered by a bunch of chancers. I'd be interested to see if anyone can offer a single tangible benefit, as opposed to empty rhetoric and xenophobia which can be offered by the Leavers.... Nope. Didn't think so.

Those whom the gods destroy...

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Alwyn
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# 4380

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
... IMO there are simply no benefits of leaving ...

I see no benefits of leaving for me, either. It seems that there are some people who will benefit. A headline in the Times says that Brexit will be a "bonanza for billionaires". I noticed that the newspapers which are owned by very rich people supported Brexit.

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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
The TWC Writers' Study

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Anglican't
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# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
I noticed that the newspapers which are owned by very rich people supported Brexit.

The newspapers that backed Remain are also presumably owned by very rich people?
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Alwyn
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# 4380

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The newspapers that backed Remain are also presumably owned by very rich people?

On the right/Brexiter side, it seems that the Daily Mail is owned by Viscount Rothermere. The Daily Express is owned by Richard Desmond. The Sun and the Times are owned by Rupert Murdoch. The Daily Telegraph is owned by the Barclay brothers.

On the left/Remainer side: The Guardian is owned by the Scott Trust, which is meant to prevent "commercial pressures" from interfering with their reporting (source). The Daily Mirror is owned by the Trinity Mirror group; I searched online to see if I could find the name of a rich individual who owns the Trinity Mirror group - I couldn't (maybe someone else knows more than I do?).

While I could be wrong, it appears that the ownership of the print media on one side of the debate looks different from the ownership of the print media on the other.

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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
The TWC Writers' Study

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Anglican't
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# 15292

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quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
On the right/Brexiter side, it seems that the Daily Mail is owned by Viscount Rothermere.

Who also owns the Mail on Sunday, which backed Remain.

quote:
The Sun and the Times are owned by Rupert Murdoch.
The Times also backed Remain (although the Sunday Times backed Leave).

[ 07. May 2017, 09:06: Message edited by: Anglican't ]

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Alwyn
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# 4380

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Fair enough, I was wrong about The Times. I hadn't realised that the Mail on Sunday backed remain.

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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
The TWC Writers' Study

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Anglican't
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# 15292

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The Mail on Sunday can be surprisingly liberal, especially the magazines. Articles about 'Why every mother should have a gay son' or cartoons criticising Jeremy Hunt's running of the NHS probably wouldn't get a look in in the daily edition.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
I noticed that the newspapers which are owned by very rich people supported Brexit.

The newspapers that backed Remain are also presumably owned by very rich people?
Murdoch owns the Simpsons (essentially). Doesn't make him any less reprehensible.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Alwyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
... IMO there are simply no benefits of leaving ...

I see no benefits of leaving for me, either. It seems that there are some people who will benefit. A headline in the Times says that Brexit will be a "bonanza for billionaires". I noticed that the newspapers which are owned by very rich people supported Brexit.
There will certainly be benefits for rich foreigners, who will benefit from the lower exchange rate (and Britain's desperation to get any kind of deal after leaving the EU). I'm sure that wasn't the intention of the Brexiteers.
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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
# 13919

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I, and many millions upon millions throughout Europe today, breathed a sigh of relief that France wasn't being led by an extreme right wing lunatic and that hope did indeed triumph over hate yesterday. The xenophobic vitriol pouring out of UK media and on social media today is frightening and deeply disturbing. There seems to be a very strong sense that France has betrayed Britain and a sense of disappointment that Herr Penn didn't get in.

Is this just a representation of a bubble, or is this a general and genuine feeling about the French Presidential election?

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
The xenophobic vitriol pouring out of UK media and on social media today is frightening and deeply disturbing. There seems to be a very strong sense that France has betrayed Britain and a sense of disappointment that Herr Penn didn't get in.

Not sure how pervasive this was, whilst you are right that the Sun et al seemed to be salivating over a Le Pen win last week, only the Telegraph seemed to run with that line today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs/the_papers

I wonder to what extent it was on the back of a hope that the UK wouldn't be alone (in leaving the EU), which is somewhat ironic.

[ 08. May 2017, 09:10: Message edited by: chris stiles ]

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
I, and many millions upon millions throughout Europe today, breathed a sigh of relief that France wasn't being led by an extreme right wing lunatic and that hope did indeed triumph over hate yesterday. The xenophobic vitriol pouring out of UK media and on social media today is frightening and deeply disturbing. There seems to be a very strong sense that France has betrayed Britain and a sense of disappointment that Herr Penn didn't get in.

Is this just a representation of a bubble, or is this a general and genuine feeling about the French Presidential election?

It's a bubble and may reflect where you're looking. No one I know has been anything than pleased that France managed to avoid a Le Pen presidency. Although a few have pointed out that France isn't out of the woods yet. The turn out wasn't great and a lot of people voted against something than for something else. 2020 anyone?!

Tubbs

[ 08. May 2017, 09:19: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Jane R
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# 331

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Marvin:
quote:
Yes, [the Germans have] decided to use political means to unite the continent under their rule rather than military ones.
And so, instead of staying within the EU and working to make sure it isn't entirely dominated by Germany (why do you think the Poles are so upset that we're leaving?) we leave the EU and... what? Sit in splendid isolation 20 miles off the coast of France? Start another war?

You keep talking about sovereignty, but you don't seem to understand how political power actually works internationally. The days when you could send in a gunboat to settle diplomatic difficulties are long gone.

I'm going to try one more time and then give up: you (or whoever is in charge of these fabulous trade negotiations that are going to give us better deals than we already had) need to know SOMETHING about how other countries think of us, or you are doomed to perpetual bewilderment at India's lack of enthusiasm for closer ties with the UK (that's a link to the well-known socialist rag The Financial Times, in case you were wondering).

Nobody is denying that other countries have done beastly things. What are you afraid of?

[ 08. May 2017, 09:18: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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