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Source: (consider it) Thread: Shake it all about: Brexit thread II
Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I voted Remain because of the Single Market, because the inevitable acrimonious row with our erstwhile partners will undermine NATO, because of the Irish Peace Process - now under threat, and because the thought of how smug the likes of Farage, Hopkins and the rest of the thinly veiled fascists would be if they'd won. Three concrete achievements of Margaret Thatcher, Ernest Bevin and Tony Blair and John Major (and one insubstantial but highly gratifying side effect) all thrown away for piss and wind offered by a bunch of chancers. I'd be interested to see if anyone can offer a single tangible benefit, as opposed to empty rhetoric and xenophobia which can be offered by the Leavers.... Nope. Didn't think so.

Those whom the gods destroy...

Me too. And I still believe the EU is valuable and would vote remain again. But the EU doesn't always help themselves. With pronouncements about how English is not an international language anymore because we're leaving and demands for an exit payment that's over the odds they may have no legal basis for. Junker would be best locked in the same cupboard as BoJo for the duration.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Jane R
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# 331

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fletcher christian:
quote:
I, and many millions upon millions throughout Europe today, breathed a sigh of relief that France wasn't being led by an extreme right wing lunatic and that hope did indeed triumph over hate yesterday. The xenophobic vitriol pouring out of UK media and on social media today is frightening and deeply disturbing. There seems to be a very strong sense that France has betrayed Britain and a sense of disappointment that Herr Penn didn't get in.

Is this just a representation of a bubble, or is this a general and genuine feeling about the French Presidential election?

I hope it's a bubble, but given the results of the UK local elections...

The lemming, on its way over the cliff, is beginning to feel lonely.

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
The xenophobic vitriol pouring out of UK media and on social media today is frightening and deeply disturbing. There seems to be a very strong sense that France has betrayed Britain and a sense of disappointment that Herr Penn didn't get in.

Not sure how pervasive this was, whilst you are right that the Sun et al seemed to be salivating over a Le Pen win last week, only the Telegraph seemed to run with that line today:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs/the_papers

I wonder to what extent it was on the back of a hope that the UK wouldn't be alone (in leaving the EU), which is somewhat ironic.

There did seem to be a hope (among parts of the media at least, probably spreading to the right wing political parties) that the French election could result in an ally within the EU, someone on the side of the English in negotiating Brexit. There's a historic irony that some English people were looking to France for friendship.

The barminess of that whole idea is, of course, that the only thing we can really count on is that the governments of each of the EU nations will enter the negotiations with the interests of their own nations foremost in their thinking - and, as 28 sovereign nations it would be inconceivable that they would do anything else. The Commission would be balancing the interests of the EU as a whole with the interests of the 27 nations who were not contemplating national suicide. There's no reason to expect that anyone other than the UK government would be seeking the best for the UK above their own interests, at present there's no evidence that the UK government is seeking the best for the UK.

And, the thought that Le Pen would be more inclined to be friendly to the UK, and put the interests of France further down her priorites, than Macron is simply laughable. It would be something too bizarre even for a Monty Python sketch.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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I've seen some reports that the UK gov have been drafting in diplomats who are used to negotiating post-war peace agreements. I don't know if that's true or not, but there certainly is an impression that things are progressing as a war rather than an orderly negotiated transition with outcomes in everyone's best interests.

Without wanting to big-up Yanis Varoufakis - who I think is behaving like an arse at the moment - it does rather feel like everyone is trying to play hardball without appreciating their own roles in EU-wide Economic Game Theory.

I don't really understand it, but as far as I can understand it means that everyone is so fixated on their own economic interests that they end up with the worst possible deal. Varoufakis' version for Greece seemed to be to win concessions by refusing to co-operate with Germany, so I'm not entirely sure how he was really enacting his own economic theory.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Without wanting to big-up Yanis Varoufakis - who I think is behaving like an arse at the moment - it does rather feel like everyone is trying to play hardball without appreciating their own roles in EU-wide Economic Game Theory.

He came up with an interesting solution to Brexit. Essentially, say to the EU, "okay, we'll be Norway. Give us what Norway has. We'll pay what Norway does."

It's an already tried-and-tested deal for a country outside but allied to the EU. It's an off the shelf thing that we can try for a decade, and see how we go. And in the (dire) circumstances we find ourselves in, I'd be happy with being Norway.

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Lost in Space

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
He came up with an interesting solution to Brexit. Essentially, say to the EU, "okay, we'll be Norway. Give us what Norway has. We'll pay what Norway does."

It's an already tried-and-tested deal for a country outside but allied to the EU. It's an off the shelf thing that we can try for a decade, and see how we go. And in the (dire) circumstances we find ourselves in, I'd be happy with being Norway.

It's dumb shit like that which really makes me think he has lost his senses. There is no sense that Norway is a model which will appeal to the Tory-UKIP vote. There is no way that May can sell that.

Norway pays as much, possibly more, than most EU states without the political influence.
Norway is forced to accept freedom of movement
Norway is forced to accept the European Court judgments

I'm not sure if Norway can legally negotiate trade agreements outwith of the EU, but I'm sure the EU would take a dim view of them getting cosy with international trade competitors.

If the UK is prepared to take a Norway deal, it might as well stay in the EU. There is absolutely no advantage at all.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It's dumb shit like that which really makes me think he has lost his senses. There is no sense that Norway is a model which will appeal to the Tory-UKIP vote. There is no way that May can sell that.

I think it's probably a silly idea now - though it may have had legs in the past if it had been officially floated as the path to leave (it would have also called Hannan/Farage etc on their bluff as they were very fond of comparisons with Norway and Switzerland) and a lot of people were fond of the 'we only ever voted to join a free trade block' argument.

Now of course it's too late, and things have been ratcheted way past the point where such an approach is feasible.

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fletcher christian

Mutinous Seadog
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Posted by Tubbs:
quote:

With pronouncements about how English is not an international language anymore because we're leaving and demands for an exit payment that's over the odds they may have no legal basis for. Junker would be best locked in the same cupboard as BoJo for the duration.

Juncker can't help but be a wind up merchant at times and he can be wickedly amusing with it too. I actually like him a lot because he has an ability to get right to the core of something and cut through all the crap. While his statement about the english language was obviously political in relation to France's election, there is an element of truth to it. With Britain out of the EU the core and central country of the english language exits stage left (or perhaps right). Can they really pretend that english should continue to be the central language of the EU because a few irish speak it and a smattering of EU countries have it as their second language?

Regarding the payments to the EU, the break down of the bill seems pretty reasonable to me. It includes payments up until a negotiated leave but more importantly it includes elements that Britain committed itself to both financially and legally. Many of these things have to do with research - not least, medical research. These are things that will continue to benefit Britain if and when it leaves, but more importantly it will be of benefit to the poorer countries of the EU and those who live with debilitating disease and who live in hope of the day of an affordable and effective medicine or treatment. Britain always did a poor job of promoting this within the UK. It never blew the trumpet of this as one of the many great benefits of EU membership and one of the great benefits of countries actually working together; not just financially, but in combining intellectual and scientific talent. Instead, Britain consistently trumpeted the 'I am not my brother's keeper' line and the British public couldn't tell you what research has taken place or what is ongoing. I would like to think that many of these things could somehow continue after Brexit, but it's hard to see how the present government would accept further payments to it or how British researchers and scientists could work with people who know the British have decided they really aren't interested in.

Despite all of that, Britain's government seems utterly insistent on telling it's population of the great and immense benefit of leaving the EU, but I have to be honest, I haven't heard a single good reason that doesn't boil down to: 'We won't have to let the dirty foreigners in'.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
But the EU doesn't always help themselves. With pronouncements about how English is not an international language anymore because we're leaving and demands for an exit payment that's over the odds they may have no legal basis for.

The UK government does even worse at building a soild and stable position for negotiations. Setting up everyone else as enemies you need to defeat rather than friends you want to maintain cordial relationships with is hardly a good place to start if you want cordial relationships at the end of the process. Adverserial politics is a rubbish way to do business.

On the other points. Of course, at present within the EU there are two nations for whom English is an official language, when one of those leaves the EU (the one with much greater economic, political and social clout) then English will diminish in importance within EU discourse, quite substantially. That is entirely natural. If we want to be an isolated little archipeligo sitting off the coast of a major trading network then we have to accept that that isolation will spread to our language as much as our trade.

And, also the EU negotiators (nor, anyone else who has any authority to make such statements) have not issued any figures on what the committed UK contributions to the EU budget are, and what sort of one-off payment would be needed to clear those debts - and, of course, we all know that if a deal was suitable then writing off some of that debt may be needed.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
Britain always did a poor job of promoting this within the UK. It never blew the trumpet of this as one of the many great benefits of EU membership and one of the great benefits of countries actually working together; not just financially, but in combining intellectual and scientific talent.

I for one have been banging on about the benefits of cooperation on scientific research for a year. But, I clearly don't speak for Britain.

One of the issues is that we have been downgrading the social value of scientific research for decades in the UK. As we have moved further and further towards a service economy the ability to actually make things has been diminished, and the argument for research that "we can make better things" has less weight - especially when if we do make such a break through the resulting work ends up outside the UK anyway. The research we do becomes more of a service provided to others, and we become a nation of consultants.

The attitude seems to be increasingly let someone else do the research, develop the new products - and then we'll simply buy them. Maybe provide some advise in financing, marketting and packaging. To actually fund the research is a bit too much like investment - and it's gone the same way as investing in our infrastructure, housing stock or anything else that the Tories have cut to allow tax-cuts to their rich chums.

quote:
Despite all of that, Britain's government seems utterly insistent on telling it's population of the great and immense benefit of leaving the EU, but I have to be honest, I haven't heard a single good reason that doesn't boil down to: 'We won't have to let the dirty foreigners in'.
Agree entirely.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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betjemaniac
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of course, at present within the EU there are two nations for whom English is an official language

I know I said I wasn't doing social media, but I was passing and although it doesn't change your point much there are at least 3... UK, ROI, Malta.

I shall now resume the social media blackout

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And is it true? For if it is....

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Surely, Juncker was having a wind up about English being demoted? In the same speech, he had a fairly amusing section about the might of the Luxembourg army, all 771 of them.

Incredible to see the tabloids ranting about 'Brussels threat to English language'. Sense of humour by-pass. They will probably write about 'Luxembourg army threat to UK'.

[ 08. May 2017, 12:59: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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one City, United, Love MCR!

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
If the UK is prepared to take a Norway deal, it might as well stay in the EU. There is absolutely no advantage at all.

No shit?

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Lost in Space

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
But the EU doesn't always help themselves. With pronouncements about how English is not an international language anymore because we're leaving and demands for an exit payment that's over the odds they may have no legal basis for.

The UK government does even worse at building a soild and stable position for negotiations. Setting up everyone else as enemies you need to defeat rather than friends you want to maintain cordial relationships with is hardly a good place to start if you want cordial relationships at the end of the process. Adverserial politics is a rubbish way to do business.

On the other points. Of course, at present within the EU there are two nations for whom English is an official language, when one of those leaves the EU (the one with much greater economic, political and social clout) then English will diminish in importance within EU discourse, quite substantially. That is entirely natural. If we want to be an isolated little archipeligo sitting off the coast of a major trading network then we have to accept that that isolation will spread to our language as much as our trade.

And, also the EU negotiators (nor, anyone else who has any authority to make such statements) have not issued any figures on what the committed UK contributions to the EU budget are, and what sort of one-off payment would be needed to clear those debts - and, of course, we all know that if a deal was suitable then writing off some of that debt may be needed.

Wouldn't the committed figures be whatever the UK's annual contributions to the EU for that particular budgetary cycle?! Once that's over, the EU has to set a new budget anyway - minus whatever they would have got from the UK. That means they'll need to find money from elsewhere (hello EU-27) or cut their budget.

From various news reports, it sounds like the Lords may be right when they said that any demands for extra money might not be legally enforceable if it did end up in court.

Both sides are as bad as each other. Both are trying to set the other up as scapegoat should it all go horribly wrong.

Tubbs

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Wouldn't the committed figures be whatever the UK's annual contributions to the EU for that particular budgetary cycle?!

Yes, that's the easy part of a "divorce bill" to calculate - at the moment about £8bn per year, with projects winding down over the 3-5 years post Brexit the cost/y will decrease steadily, maybe somewhere around £20b (not an expert, figure plucked almost from the air) to fund committed projects to conclusion. If the UK government agreed to take over direct funding of ongoing projects with expenditure in the UK (eg agriculture, projects funded by structural funds) then that could be less (though the UK gov would still pay the same, but maybe easier to sell in UK).

What is a lot harder to calculate is the pot of money needed for other EU expenses that we have a moral obligation to support. Chief among them the pot to ensure EU employees receive the pension they deserve. Again, the immediate bill could be reduced if the UK government commits to pay our share of those costs when they occur over the next 70 years ... but, do you see the UK gov being able to sell ongoing payments for decades? Or, the EU trusting that the UK gov will actually make those payments if that's what's agreed?

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:

Both sides are as bad as each other. Both are trying to set the other up as scapegoat should it all go horribly wrong.

Tubbs

Yeah, but one is a real goat.


HINT: It is the one which bleats in English.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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quetzalcoatl
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Some interesting variations in rumours going on about the leak of the Juncker dinner. 1. That it was a bad mistake by EU apparatchiks, and has reinforced May's position. 2. That it was deliberate, with the aim of reinforcing May's position, thus helping a good Brexit deal. 3. That it was deliberate, with the aim of reinforcing May's position, thus detonating any hope of a good Brexit deal.

Or maybe I am going mad in a hall of mirrors.

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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4. Deliberate, reinforcing May's position of blaming the inevitable problems on the EU.
In other words, a complete misdirection.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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quetzalcoatl
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Some of the imputed motives are interesting - for example, that those who leaked, knew it would be a red rag to a bull, and May would come out all hot and heavy, followed by the tabloids - 'Hands off our election', 'EU is helping Labour', 'Our Queen is under threat', and so on. (I made that one up).

It sounds like a wish to sabotage Brexit, but maybe this is too clever.

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one City, United, Love MCR!

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lilBuddha
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Cleaver hoofed it when they "won" the result they didn't want.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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rolyn
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The only chance Labour have got of ever seeing power again is if the wheels come of Brexit completely, and even then they will need the Lib-dems.
The Tories have piled all there chips on the table over this thing working out. It's almost as if all of Cameron's dire warnings over exiting the EU were never uttered, and we are headed for the great blue beyond sat on a Tory Landslide.
Is this all surreal or what.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
# 440

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
Wouldn't the committed figures be whatever the UK's annual contributions to the EU for that particular budgetary cycle?!

Yes, that's the easy part of a "divorce bill" to calculate - at the moment about £8bn per year, with projects winding down over the 3-5 years post Brexit the cost/y will decrease steadily, maybe somewhere around £20b (not an expert, figure plucked almost from the air) to fund committed projects to conclusion. If the UK government agreed to take over direct funding of ongoing projects with expenditure in the UK (eg agriculture, projects funded by structural funds) then that could be less (though the UK gov would still pay the same, but maybe easier to sell in UK).

What is a lot harder to calculate is the pot of money needed for other EU expenses that we have a moral obligation to support. Chief among them the pot to ensure EU employees receive the pension they deserve. Again, the immediate bill could be reduced if the UK government commits to pay our share of those costs when they occur over the next 70 years ... but, do you see the UK gov being able to sell ongoing payments for decades? Or, the EU trusting that the UK gov will actually make those payments if that's what's agreed?

It’s right that the UK pays for the rest of this budget cycle, for relocation expenses for EU institutions and longer tail liabilities like pensions for UK staff / MEP but I’m not convinced about some of the other things.

If a project comes in multiple stages and some of those stages will take place after the UK has left, then I’m less convinced about the obligation for the UK to continue funding. Unless it’s something where there is continued UK involvement. New EU members aren’t asked for contributions to projects that they join half way through. Once the current budget cycle ends, if the EU will have to find the money from other member countries or cut things.

One of the drivers for the request for extra contributions is nothing to do with moral imperatives or fairness, it’s that the UK paid in. The other member countries are reported to have told the Commission they're not prepared to pay more to make up the shortfall. The Commission doesn’t want to make cuts.

Like most relationship breakdowns, it all comes down to money. And about 4 million people are caught up in gigantic pissing contest.

Tubbs

[ 09. May 2017, 10:16: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Tubbs:
It’s right that the UK pays for the rest of this budget cycle, for relocation expenses for EU institutions and longer tail liabilities like pensions for UK staff / MEP but I’m not convinced about some of the other things.

I would guess that the "other things" are actually effectively small change. Pensions liabilities will be a substantial chunk of money, probably the largest single component by far.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
The only chance Labour have got of ever seeing power again is if the wheels come of Brexit completely, and even then they will need the Lib-dems.
The Tories have piled all there chips on the table over this thing working out. It's almost as if all of Cameron's dire warnings over exiting the EU were never uttered, and we are headed for the great blue beyond sat on a Tory Landslide.
Is this all surreal or what.

I suspect that it will be twenty years before we see another non-Tory Prime Minister and when we do they will take us back into the EU.

I am tempted to add that I suspect they will come into power on the back of a 'colour' revolution rather than a General Election, but that is one hostage to fortune too many.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
I would guess that the "other things" are actually effectively small change. Pensions liabilities will be a substantial chunk of money, probably the largest single component by far.

A comment/question. AFAICT the figures announced by the media stem from extrapolations from various statements by the French and German governments, none of which have explicitly mentioned figures. The higher figure (100bn Euros) seems to stem from a projection by the FT, and includes investments in some projects where there would be some returns in future.

This might be a nice round figure for the purposes of outrage, but it appears to consist of a mix of things.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
What is a lot harder to calculate is the pot of money needed for other EU expenses that we have a moral obligation to support.

If, say, I have had a subscription to the Guardian for 25 years that I decide to cancel in favour of reading the Independent website free of charge, am I obliged to continue paying money to the Guardian which it has previously relied on?

If there is a moral obligation for the UK to support some of the EU's ongoing expenses post-Brexit, does the UK also have a moral right to some of (say, at least 1/28th) of the EU's assets (to the extent that it has any)?

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Alan Cresswell

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If you sign a 3 year mortgage agreement, and after 6 months find another company that offers a better deal, would you not have to pay the first company a fee to prematurely cancel the agreement? Some agreements we can can just cancel, others require a fee of some form to be paid. Generally, the deeper a relationship the greater the costs of breakup. A subscription to a newspaper is an almost non-existent relationship. A club membership is marginally deeper, the financial arrangements of a mortgage have an (impersonal) depth. Marriage is a very deep relationship, the costs of break-up are great - and may include financial payments.

The EU isn't a newspaper you pay a subscription to, nor a gulf club. It isn't a government, nor a law maker. It does no one any good to make arguments based on false statements about the nature of the EU.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The EU isn't a...law maker.

Interesting post. But it is very much this, isn't it?
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PaulTH*
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The UK is and must remain a country which pays its debts. So let's get an independent authority to work out how much we REALLY owe to the EU and commit to paying it as part of a package which includes favourable trading arrangements. But when people come up with figures such as £84 billion, it ten times our annual net contribution, something must be wrong. Wanting the UK to fund French and Polish agriculture into the next decade is nonsense. So is just believing a figure which comes from an organisation so financially wasteful and incompetent that it hasn't managed to sign off its annual accounts for 20 years. Come up with an honourable figure and an honourable country will do the honourable thing.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The EU isn't a...law maker.

Interesting post. But it is very much this, isn't it?
In what way? The EU does produce a relatively small number of regulations and directives, but they only become law once passed through the legislative processes of each nation state (who are sovereign after all). In the UK an EU originating regulation doesn't become law until it is made law by Parliament. It doesn't even become a regulation or directive without the agreement and input of UK MEPs and ministers.

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The EU isn't a...law maker.

Interesting post. But it is very much this, isn't it?
In what way? The EU does produce a relatively small number of regulations and directives, but they only become law once passed through the legislative processes of each nation state (who are sovereign after all). In the UK an EU originating regulation doesn't become law until it is made law by Parliament. It doesn't even become a regulation or directive without the agreement and input of UK MEPs and ministers.
You make it sound as if Parliament has some say in the matter. If an EU law is made, it might be made law in the UK Parliament but that has to happen if we're to remain in the EU.
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M.
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EU Regulations are of direct effect; they don't require national legislation.

Directives do require national legislation, but Regulations seem more common these days.

M.

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Alan Cresswell

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Which is all academic, since EU regulations are produced by the UK government in cooperation with the governments of the other 27 nations in the EU, and the democratically elected members of the European Parliament. The EU institutions merely facilitate that cooperative process, rather than generate the directives and regulations independently of the sovereign nations of Europe. Or, at least that's the way it should be - if our government and even some MEPs haven't ignored their roles in the process and then complained that they hadn't had a say.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by M.:
EU Regulations are of direct effect; they don't require national legislation.

Directives do require national legislation, but Regulations seem more common these days.

M.

EU regulations on cabbages: zero words.

Farmers' own Red Tractor scheme on cabbages: 23,510 words.

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lilBuddha
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So, Some in the UK do not wish EU input into the UK legal system. But they wish to continue trading with the EU, which requires acceptance of EU laws. Which now the UK will have no control over.
Every way you look at this, it just equals stupid.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
The UK is and must remain a country which pays its debts.

Really? The UK will pay all its debts? Oh, you just mean to white people.
quote:

So let's get an independent authority to work out how much we REALLY owe to the EU and commit to paying it as part of a package which includes favourable trading arrangements.

Only a fool thinks the final figures won't be discussed.


quote:
Come up with an honourable figure and an honourable country will do the honourable thing.

Honourable. This mess is the result of a result that the Brexit "proponents" didn't want. Since they got the result they didn't want, they appointed a person who is doing her best to make sure the resultant deal is as far from what they truly did want as possible.
Oh, wait, you said honourable. Which country are you speaking of?

[ 09. May 2017, 20:55: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, Some in the UK do not wish EU input into the UK legal system. But they wish to continue trading with the EU, which requires acceptance of EU laws. Which now the UK will have no control over.
Every way you look at this, it just equals stupid.

So it'll be just like we trade with every non-EU country then? (Unless trading with non-EU countries 'just equals stupid'?)
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
So, Some in the UK do not wish EU input into the UK legal system. But they wish to continue trading with the EU, which requires acceptance of EU laws. Which now the UK will have no control over.
Every way you look at this, it just equals stupid.

So it'll be just like we trade with every non-EU country then? (Unless trading with non-EU countries 'just equals stupid'?)
The intent was not to leave the EU, but that is the result. Which is stupid.
Banking on favourable trading agreements which have not been yet negotiated is also stupid.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The EU institutions merely facilitate that cooperative process, rather than generate the directives and regulations independently of the sovereign nations of Europe.

My understanding is that it is the Commission that has the monopoly (or virtual monopoly) on initiating EU legislation?
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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The EU institutions merely facilitate that cooperative process, rather than generate the directives and regulations independently of the sovereign nations of Europe.

My understanding is that it is the Commission that has the monopoly (or virtual monopoly) on initiating EU legislation?
That is my understanding too, and if we pull out of the EU we will have no say whatsoever in what the EU Commission may decide, much of which will determine our trading relationship with EU member states.

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If someone takes a shot at President Trump will his bodyguards shout "Donald Duck"?

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Alan Cresswell

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In order to ensure the drafting of regulations and directives is coherent and coordinated they are passed through the Commission, which then produces the text which is passed to other EU institutions (Parliament and Council) for discussion, amendment and eventual votes. The Council and Parliament can request the Commission to draft legislation, and it's unusual for the Commission to refuse to do that. It's even possible for EU citizens to bypass both Parliament and Council and request the Commission draft legislation, through a million+ signature petition process (though, like the UK Parliament petitions that only requires the Commission to consider it). The origin of practically all EU regulations and directives is through either Council (the governments of EU nations) or Parliament (the people of the EU), or both.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Jay-Emm
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The EU institutions merely facilitate that cooperative process, rather than generate the directives and regulations independently of the sovereign nations of Europe.

My understanding is that it is the Commission that has the monopoly (or virtual monopoly) on initiating EU legislation?
You can (could?) get involved
url.

Although it does go through the commission, who've clearly got some monopoly*, not sure if it's 'initiating', but clearly in the first steps.
process

(indirect election method)

*Well except for each country individually choosing to create the same law by some other discussion (but that would be effectively duplicating the council, anyway).

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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Oh, wait, you said honourable. Which country are you speaking of?

Another naysayer who can'd find a good word for Britain. I believe in this country and that it is honourable in its dealings. We will pay what we owe to the EU, but perhaps not some inflated sum dreamed up by a Eurocrat. An independent assessor is needed here.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Alan Cresswell

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An honourable country wouldn't leave millions of innocent people in limbo for a year or more. It wouldn't refuse refuge to people fleeing war and persecution, especially not unaccompanied children. It wouldn't allow lies about immigrants to be widely circulated without official correction, feeding bigotry and racism. In an honourable country there wouldn't be people reliant on food banks, or disabled people without access to the welfare they need.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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PaulTH*
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There are no Utopias on planet earth. I feel lucky to have been born and lived in this land.

--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
An honourable country wouldn't leave millions of innocent people in limbo for a year or more.

I thought the UK government wanted to do an early deal on residency rights but the EU refused?
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Oh, wait, you said honourable. Which country are you speaking of?

Another naysayer who can'd find a good word for Britain.
If you cannot admit its faults, you do not truly love a country.
Patriotism isn't flag waiving and slogan shouting. Patriotism is doing what is best for the country. And that means treating the wounds, not putting a flag coloured plaster over them.
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
There are no Utopias on planet earth.

Not an excuse for not doing one's best.
quote:

I feel lucky to have been born and lived in this land.

There are plenty of people in impoverished and oppressed places who love their countries, so this, from a privileged person in a privileged country means little in itself.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
An honourable country wouldn't leave millions of innocent people in limbo for a year or more.

I thought the UK government wanted to do an early deal on residency rights but the EU refused?
The EU refused to start Brexit negotiations before article 50 was triggered.

That was no reason not to do the right thing - to acknowledge the massive benefit to the country from all EU immigrants, and to guarantee ongoing right to live and work in the UK. It wasn't dependent on any reciprocal guarantee to UK citizens elsewhere in the EU.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Another naysayer who can't find a good word for Britain. I believe in this country and that it is honourable in its dealings. We will pay what we owe to the EU, but perhaps not some inflated sum dreamed up by a Eurocrat. An independent assessor is needed here.

You mean like the Financial Times, which came up with the 100 billion figure?

--------------------
Lost in Space

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Another naysayer who can't find a good word for Britain. I believe in this country and that it is honourable in its dealings. We will pay what we owe to the EU, but perhaps not some inflated sum dreamed up by a Eurocrat. An independent assessor is needed here.

You mean like the Financial Times, which came up with the 100 billion figure?
It's amazing how the right wing keep insisting that the EU came up with the 100 billion figure, and before that, the 60 billion figure. Reputable journalists are in fact referring to the FT, but I suppose fake news is meat and drink to some people. In fact, in Barnier's last speech, he said no figure had been arrived at. Give me strength.

--------------------
one City, United, Love MCR!

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Anglican't
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
An honourable country wouldn't leave millions of innocent people in limbo for a year or more.

I thought the UK government wanted to do an early deal on residency rights but the EU refused?
The EU refused to start Brexit negotiations before article 50 was triggered.

That was no reason not to do the right thing - to acknowledge the massive benefit to the country from all EU immigrants, and to guarantee ongoing right to live and work in the UK. It wasn't dependent on any reciprocal guarantee to UK citizens elsewhere in the EU.

Do you think the EU should've done the right thing and acknowledged the massive benefit to EU27 countries by British migrants by offering them on-going rights to live and work there?
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