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Source: (consider it) Thread: Shake it all about: Brexit thread II
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I would think that hard Brexit will be dumped. Trouble is, most positions are very vague. We sort of want a full and fruitful trading relation with the EU, but we don't want all those nasty foreigners coming here. But please can we retain our regulatory harmonization with the EU, so we don't have nasty border checks on trucks? Thank you very much. Nothing has changed.

Actually, the obvious choice now is EEA, but will the Ultras accept this?

[ 11. June 2017, 14:53: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]

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no path

Posts: 9480 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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I can't remember if I've already said it here or elsewhere, but an 'off the shelf' Norway deal will do. Just go in, say, give us what Norway has, and stick to that line. We can review matter in say, seven years.

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Get your arse to Mars

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I can't remember if I've already said it here or elsewhere, but an 'off the shelf' Norway deal will do. Just go in, say, give us what Norway has, and stick to that line. We can review matter in say, seven years.

Absolutely. It would be clear enough, probably would not require massive legislation, and would satisfy exporters, banks, etc.

So you can bet that both Tories and Labour will reject it. Labour are terrified of losing the UKIP vote, I surmise, and therefore sound ambiguous about everything. Tories, well, who knows.

But maybe in the end, through exhaustion, and total confusion, it may happen as a kind of reculer pour mieux sauter, (strategic withdrawal).

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no path

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Bishops Finger
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Perhaps we should just ask Norway to take us over, lock, stock, and barrel.

Harald V seems a nice old boy - he and Betty would make good joint monarchs.

IJ

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The future is another country - they might do things differently there...

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quetzalcoatl
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Quite possible is a long transitional period, with a kind of quasi-single market arrangement, that everybody pretends is something else, and is given a stupid long name, and then we all fall down in exhaustion, and wonder what the hell that was about.

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no path

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I can't remember if I've already said it here or elsewhere, but an 'off the shelf' Norway deal will do. Just go in, say, give us what Norway has, and stick to that line. We can review matter in say, seven years.

I really can't see what there is to gain from being Norway than from being Sweden. Norway is like being in the EU with none of the influence and more of the cost.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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Well, if we bring in a points based immigration system - per what we do for the rest of the world - could we not strike a bargain along the lines of, for as long as all eu citizens get default 100% points available for their visa unless they are on a terrorist watch list can we have tariff free acccess, interim deal for the next x years.

Then each successive government gets to decide whether decreased immigration is worth increased tariffs. Whilst the eu either gets citizen movement or tax income.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Doc Tor
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# 9748

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I can't remember if I've already said it here or elsewhere, but an 'off the shelf' Norway deal will do. Just go in, say, give us what Norway has, and stick to that line. We can review matter in say, seven years.

I really can't see what there is to gain from being Norway than from being Sweden. Norway is like being in the EU with none of the influence and more of the cost.
Yes. You're absolutely right. But being Sweden is off the table. Being Norway is on it.

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Get your arse to Mars

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blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848

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quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
Perhaps we should just ask Norway to take us over, lock, stock, and barrel.

IJ

Harald Hardrada had a bloody good try. Maybe his plan is finally coming to fruition.
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PaulTH*
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Actually, the obvious choice now is EEA, but will the Ultras accept this?

The ultras will soon be irrelevant as Mrs May is now in hock to Ruth Davidson's 13 seats and Arlene Foster's 10, neither of whom will support the Brexit May had in mind. The EEA would indeed be the obvious choice, but will the EU or EFTA be willing to allow it? It seems there's little goodwill left for Britain after a year of delays and aggressive sabre rattling, of which the EU has also done its share. The window may already have closed on that option, and we may simply be expelled without a deal. But it's definitely what the British negotiating team should be pursuing. Many commentators have said that the serious talks won't get under way before the German elections in the Autumn. I hope this is the case as it's obvious that the PM has secured no mandate for her previous stance and must now reinvent the wheel on this.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
Well, if we bring in a points based immigration system - per what we do for the rest of the world - could we not strike a bargain along the lines of, for as long as all eu citizens get default 100% points available for their visa unless they are on a terrorist watch list can we have tariff free acccess, interim deal for the next x years.

Then each successive government gets to decide whether decreased immigration is worth increased tariffs. Whilst the eu either gets citizen movement or tax income.

Remember that any immigration system has to work both ways, allowing UK citizens to live and work in the EU. The loss of the opportunity to live and work anywhere in the EU is one of the big costs with the loss of freedom of movement - it's created the uncertainty over the rights and future of UK citizens already living elsewhere in the EU, and many UK citizens have benefitted from working or studying elsewhere in the EU.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
It seems there's little goodwill left for Britain after a year of delays and aggressive sabre rattling, of which the EU has also done its share.

What sabre rattling has the EU done? Though, some UK newspapers have done a bit of sabre rattling on their behalf, producing various numbers for the exit bill that the EU will demand with precious little in the way of evidence that these are what the EU would want.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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quetzalcoatl
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I had two thoughts this morning, when I got up. One, I wonder if the UK political class has the intellectual ability to deal with Brexit. It is very complicated, with many different areas of regulation and degrees of convergence. Recently, I have been reading articles on aviation, race horses being transported, perishable food, Formula 1 cars, the Irish border, and so on.

Two, it might be better then to 'park' somewhere as a transitional arrangement, while such matters are digested, and either changed or not. The obvious place is EEA, but apparently the Ultras object to this.

Presumably, the election has put paid to hard Brexit.

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no path

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agingjb
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A parliament cannot bind its successors, and presumably a referendum cannot bind a parliament elected subsequently.

I don't know if there is a remain majority in the new Commons, but if there is, then they should very rapidly propose a multi party government that has the confidence of the House.

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Refraction Villanelles

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alienfromzog

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had two thoughts this morning, when I got up. One, I wonder if the UK political class has the intellectual ability to deal with Brexit. It is very complicated, with many different areas of regulation and degrees of convergence. Recently, I have been reading articles on aviation, race horses being transported, perishable food, Formula 1 cars, the Irish border, and so on.

Two, it might be better then to 'park' somewhere as a transitional arrangement, while such matters are digested, and either changed or not. The obvious place is EEA, but apparently the Ultras object to this.

Presumably, the election has put paid to hard Brexit.

I hope so.

It really is fiendishly complex. I have got in trouble from well-meaning Christian friends for some of the criticism of the government I posted on Facebook. Primarily that the government had no answers to the specific challenges and in all public statements were glossing over some major problems. I have read the White paper. It's useless.

AFZ

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[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]

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Jane R
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I see President Macron is holding out an olive branch this morning and saying 'you don't have to go through with this'.

Rescued from our own stupidity - by the French? There are many people in this country who would rather cut off their own heads than have to live with the embarrassment. Unfortunately, they are expecting the rest of us to join them.

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Eutychus
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I still have trouble believing in this as anything other than gesture politics from Macron.

It will enable him to say later on that France and other EU nations showed willing to be accommodating and that any form of Brexit is not for want of that, but in my view he knows full well it is not a realistic option - he himself stated that it would be a challenge to democracy in that it would ignore the referendum outcome.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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Aye, Macron (and, indeed, Merkel etal) can make those sort of gestures knowing that noone in the UK government has the nous to cut our losses and exit Brexit, nor the backbone to stand up to the UKIPers and the rightwing media. With the added benefit that in the very unlikely event that the offer is accepted the people of the EU will all benefit from the UK remaining in the EU, without having to constantly bend over backwards to accomodate the UK.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Aye, Macron (and, indeed, Merkel etal) can make those sort of gestures knowing that noone in the UK government has the nous to cut our losses and exit Brexit, nor the backbone to stand up to the UKIPers and the rightwing media. With the added benefit that in the very unlikely event that the offer is accepted the people of the EU will all benefit from the UK remaining in the EU, without having to constantly bend over backwards to accomodate the UK.

Can I say that the enormous drop in the UKIP vote can only be attributable to the success of the Leave campaign in the referendum. People got what they wanted, to get the article 50 notice and then to get out.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Jane R
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It's only gesture politics for as long as we refuse to call their bluff. IMNSHO.

Seriously, I doubt that anyone in the (rest of the) EU really wants to waste time negotiating with an increasingly erratic UK on the terms for Brexit unless we really, really mean it. Even if the prize is not having us inside the tent pissing in (think about it, we were).

And it's not just about us. Macron is probably playing to his own Eurosceptics too: in fact we are serving as an Awful Warning to any other member of the European Union that might be considering jumping ship.

[ 14. June 2017, 12:11: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by alienfromzog:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I had two thoughts this morning, when I got up. One, I wonder if the UK political class has the intellectual ability to deal with Brexit. It is very complicated, with many different areas of regulation and degrees of convergence. Recently, I have been reading articles on aviation, race horses being transported, perishable food, Formula 1 cars, the Irish border, and so on.

Two, it might be better then to 'park' somewhere as a transitional arrangement, while such matters are digested, and either changed or not. The obvious place is EEA, but apparently the Ultras object to this.

Presumably, the election has put paid to hard Brexit.

I hope so.

It really is fiendishly complex. I have got in trouble from well-meaning Christian friends for some of the criticism of the government I posted on Facebook. Primarily that the government had no answers to the specific challenges and in all public statements were glossing over some major problems. I have read the White paper. It's useless.

AFZ

I don't think I've heard a public figure yet who can talk about Brexit with any detail. For example, people talk about hard Brexit nonchalantly as if it's just a question of tariffs. But the non-tariff barriers are the real problem - once we become a 'third country', our exports will not go through borders unchecked. This strikes me as a great difficulty. For example, transporting race horses at the moment is easy, as all details are entered on electronic databases, before the journey begins. But third countries don't have access to these. Over to you, Mr Davis.

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no path

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Just looking at the newspapers, and the Times has a front page story that Hammond favours staying in the customs union. I don't know whether this means the EU customs union, or a bespoke one, such as Turkey has. But in any case, it looks as if the impenetrable wall of Brexit no-speak is beginning to crumble, after the election. Interesting that May can't sack him now. She is the medieval monarch, imprisoned by her barons.

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no path

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Rocinante
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Hammond is using his new-found job security to speak common sense; anyone who wants to leave the customs union is presumably comfortable with queues of lorries miles long at the channel ports, backing up onto the motorways.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Truth to tell, Mrs May isn't fit to lead Brexit negotiations. Her recent trajectory has been a dizzying rollercoaster, inconsistent, and full of dishonesty.

I suppose you could argue that this is normal politics! However, Brexit isn't normal. Hard Brexit could be catastrophic for the UK, and it looks as if it is now being undermined, as more and more adherents of a softer Brexit break cover.

She looks like a drunken driver, rolling around on the road, fast ahead, no, now the brakes are on, only surviving because the Tories dare not risk another election.

Laugh or cry.

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no path

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lilBuddha
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She'll never be accused of being the sharpest tool in the chandelier, that is certain.
If the current political scene were a film, it would never have been given a greenlight as it being far to improbable, even as a farce.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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PaulTH*
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# 320

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It seems that Guy Verhofstadt one of the senior Brexit negotiator is saying that if Britain wants to change its mind and revoke Brexit, we won't find the EU the same as before. While echoing President Macron's view that the door is open to a change of heart, he said, “But like Alice in Wonderland, not all the doors are the same. It will be a brand new door, with a new Europe, a Europe without rebates, without complexity, with real powers and with unity.”

This will certainly mean the loss of the long held Thatcher's rebate. It will probably mean being made to take the Euro and accept Schengen. I'd be interested to know how many people think our membership of the EU is important enough to agree to this. Without the rebate we would be the largest net contributor, and taking the Euro is only for those who want ever closer union. In fact it's the only way the Euro can function properly as a currency. In addition to personal views, what would the electorate be likely to make of this?

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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Louise
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# 30

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Poking people in the eye and then being astonished when they don't offer a sweetheart deal... well, there you go.

As has been pointed out before at length, nobody gets forced into the Euro, beyond making a nod to it at some point. And anyway compared to the eye-watering damage to the economy and the pound (and hence rise in inflation) that completing Brexit without FOM would cause, this is still a much better deal than anything else on the table and would put a brake on the current kamikaze damage that even just the threat of ending freedom of movement has caused ( nurses, universities, farms construction, etc.)

Given the threat to the Western world that Trump currently constitutes, European solidarity and co-operation in defence would be a far wiser course for Britain than cosying up to Trump - a personality-disordered Russian puppet with no allegiance to NATO who will sooner or later lash out in a way which can't be contained. Closer integration in that respect would be the wisest thing.

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
It seems that Guy Verhofstadt one of the senior Brexit negotiator is saying that if Britain wants to change its mind and revoke Brexit, we won't find the EU the same as before.

You plunge people into fear, uncertainty and doubt and then they have the temerity to stand up for themselves.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
While echoing President Macron's view that the door is open to a change of heart, he said, “But like Alice in Wonderland, not all the doors are the same. It will be a brand new door, with a new Europe, a Europe without rebates, without complexity, with real powers and with unity.”

This scenario is in line with my oft-repeated point that however much Remainers may dream of such a thing, there is no such thing as going back to the status quo - what is meant by "staying in" is in practice "re-admission on new, less favourable terms".

I can well imagine the UK civil servants who are working through the technical aspects tearing their hair out at the politicians' unwillingness to admit this.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Louise:
And anyway compared to the eye-watering damage to the economy and the pound (and hence rise in inflation) that completing Brexit without FOM would cause, this is still a much better deal than anything else on the table and would put a brake on the current kamikaze damage that even just the threat of ending freedom of movement has caused ( nurses, universities, farms construction, etc.)

Even if we get a deal that maintains FOM, the damage has been done. The UK has sent a message to EU nationals that they aren't really welcome here - both by voting to leave (apparently with immigration being the biggest reason) and then not giving assurances to people legally living here. If you were a nurse, research scientist, farm labourer etc would you want to come to the UK, even if FOM was retained? Or would you look at (say) France where the government is making all the right noises about welcoming people who will contribute to the national good?

Exiting Brexit would be a case of cutting our losses, but losses there will be. Just a lot less than the losses that continuing with the Brexit madness will result in.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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Whatever happens, even raising the notion of Brexit has changed the game. I'm not even sure the EU can survive it, whether or not the UK actually leaves.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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TurquoiseTastic

Fish of a different color
# 8978

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I thought the EU would be severely damaged by Brexit; that was my main reason for voting Remain. But since Macron's victory I am not so sure. His government's performance over the next few years will be crucial to the future of the EU. I think Germany is pretty solid but France is the other nation the EU cannot do without.
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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
I thought the EU would be severely damaged by Brexit; that was my main reason for voting Remain. But since Macron's victory I am not so sure. His government's performance over the next few years will be crucial to the future of the EU. I think Germany is pretty solid but France is the other nation the EU cannot do without.

As noted earlier the EU makes its big decisions by "qualified majority" which requires, among other things, assent by nations representing at least 65% of the population of the EU. The inverse consequence of this is that a numerically small bloc of large, populous nations containing at least 35% of the EU's population can essentially veto EU actions. Under the current, U.K.-including EU this means that any EU action requires the approval of at least two nations of the [Germany / France / U.K. / Spain] set to reach the 65% of population mark. Or to put it another way, if any three of those four nations agree a proposal was a bad idea it doesn't matter what the rest think. After Brexit the bloc of four would be [Germany / France / Spain / Italy].

As a rather obvious corollary, any Brexit deal negotiated will have to be acceptable to at least three of the nations listed in the post-Brexit bloc of four.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Crœsos
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# 238

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Sorry, that last bit should read " . . . any Brexit deal negotiated will have to be acceptable to at least two (and probably more like three) of the nations listed in the post-Brexit bloc of four."

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10305 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
PaulTH*
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# 320

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Exiting Brexit would be a case of cutting our losses, but losses there will be. Just a lot less than the losses that continuing with the Brexit madness will result in

We discussed sabre rattling a few posts back, but unless Verhofstadt is doing just that, he doesn't want to cancel Brexit. When I voted Remain I did so in the knowledge that the UK was already a semi-detached member of the EU. In addition to the opt outs we'd secured over the years, from the euro and from Schengen, David Cameron negotiated an opt out from "ever closer union." As someone who, as a very young voter, voted to stay in in 1975, that suited me, as I was never an enthusiast of the federal dream. It isn't in the British DNA. Our economy was slowly moving away from the EU, with some 60% of our exports going there in the noughties to only 44% today.

So would we be "cutting our losses" if we became the EU's major paymaster and were forced along the road, via accepting the euro, to euro federalism? I have on sever occasions, as recently as last week, misjudged the mood of the British voters, but I feel quite sure that if you tell them that Guy Verhofstadt's programme is the alternative to Brexit, you would get a far heftier vote in favour of leaving than there was last year.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

Posts: 6379 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Dafyd
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# 5549

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Because there's a Brexit angle on everything, in this case the Grenfell disaster:
quote:
Barwell replied saying: “We have not set out any formal plans to review the building regulations as a whole, but we have publicly committed ourselves to reviewing part B [the regulations governing fire safety] following the Lakanal House fire.”

Another leading expert, David Sibert, fire safety officer to the Fire Brigades Union, who was told he would sit on the review, confirmed to the Observer that he had yet to be invited to contribute to it. It is believed that at most only a limited start was made and then abandoned as civil servants were directed on to other matters, notably the need to secure Brexit.

Guardian

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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stonespring
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# 15530

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Has any party or politician in the UK come out with a detailed and realistic plan for Brexit, hard, soft, or inbetween? One that acknowledges what the other EU countries would never agree to and is honest about the economic costs of withdrawing from certain parts of the EU (passporting, nontariff barriers to trade, etc)?
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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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No, because that would take a lot of time and effort to define. UKIP have been around long enough to do that, just about, but have never had the number or caliber of people to do that sort of work - besides which, that's done best by interacting with the public and refining the plans in the crucible of public opinion (similar to the SNP through the 70s and 80s where a fairly broad platform of "more power to Scotland" was refined through internal discussion and doorstep interaction with voters to be for independence, which was then further refined over two Parliaments in power to the 670p white paper that we voted on in 2014).

Put simply, the referendum was held a decade too early to allow any vision for what the UKs relationship to the EU should be, if not being in the EU, to develop.

For that matter, the constant dodging of discussing the issue within the main UK parties (Conservative in particular) and unwillingness to engage the electorate in the question means that we never developed a vision for our position within the EU.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31929 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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A comment by 'nosecolouredglasses' in the Guardian -

[deleted per Ship's copyright practice]

[ 19. June 2017, 20:41: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12480 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Are my eyes deceiving me, or have the UK already conceded the EU timetable on Brexit talks? In other words, trade talks have been parked.

This was probably inevitable, but the UK govt is weakened now.

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no path

Posts: 9480 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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hosting/

Boogie, we don't allow extensive quotes of material subject to copyright, and it doesn't appear to make sense in this case to post an excerpt of the material.

You may link to material elsewhere with the usual provisos, but please don't simply copy-paste huge swaths of content from elsewhere here.

That's not what here is for.

/hosting

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Louise
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# 30

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Interesting article in the Irish Times on Brexit and where the UK economy is going:

Britain’s politics and politicians are unhinged and the economy is in trouble


quote:

Finally, the economy is now visibly slowing. Inflation is on the rise, thanks mostly to the post-Brexit fall in sterling: the resulting squeeze on real incomes will dent consumer confidence and depress retail sales further.

Over the past few days we have witnessed plenty of evidence that shoppers are reluctant to spend...

And still it gets worse. That rise in inflation has now unexpectedly prompted three members of the Bank of England’s key monetary policy committee to vote for an immediate interest rate rise. That was a 5-3 split, so a rise in mortgage and other interest rates is getting very close.
...

Just wait until austerity-fatigued voters have to live through an economic slowdown.

Worth keeping an eye on the Irish Times to see ourselves as others see us.

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Posts: 6884 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jane R
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# 331

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The CBI this morning are describing it as the economy 'shifting down a gear' which sounds considerably less alarming than "visibly slowing" even though it means exactly the same thing.

Somewhere, George Orwell is laughing...

Posts: 3843 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748

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Philip Hammond's speech this morning was pretty plain.

There are no upsides to Brexit.

The economy is going to get worse.

Most people will be poorer.

All we can do is mitigate the disaster as if it was an actual disaster.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Philip Hammond's speech this morning was pretty plain.

There are no upsides to Brexit.

The economy is going to get worse.

Most people will be poorer.


Which is exactly what the Remainers were saying a year ago. Not loudly enough or clearly enough to get through the rose-coloured fog constructed by the Brexiteers.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 23879 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
All we can do is mitigate the disaster as if it was an actual disaster.

and the language of disaster was being used descriptively, as if this was something that was happening naturally rather than anything the UK had agency in choosing.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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Hammond's speech yesterday was quite enjoyable as a coded message. Surely, he was really saying that May's ramblings about Brexit are, well, ramblings, especially in relation to hard Brexit, which would decimate some businesses, and make exports difficult in purely physical terms.

However, there is still the conundrum as to how exactly you have a 'deep and favourable' relation with EU, by leaving.

Many people are talking about transitional arrangements, useful, because it can mean almost anything you like.

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no path

Posts: 9480 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Hammond's speech yesterday was quite enjoyable as a coded message. Surely, he was really saying that May's ramblings about Brexit are, well, ramblings, especially in relation to hard Brexit, which would decimate some businesses, and make exports difficult in purely physical terms.

Yes, after all the panic in the newspapers over how Labour *might possibly* do something that *might* impinge the country's economics and governance, it's interesting to note how sanguine they are when actual Tory policy really ruins the same things.
Posts: 3700 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Hammond's speech yesterday was quite enjoyable as a coded message. Surely, he was really saying that May's ramblings about Brexit are, well, ramblings, especially in relation to hard Brexit, which would decimate some businesses, and make exports difficult in purely physical terms.

Yes, after all the panic in the newspapers over how Labour *might possibly* do something that *might* impinge the country's economics and governance, it's interesting to note how sanguine they are when actual Tory policy really ruins the same things.
Very good point. Somebody was telling me yesterday that Brexit is economic nonsense, but makes political sense for some people, e.g. Little Englanders, racists, and what has been called Empire 2.0.

The patriotism of the right wing is very limited.

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no path

Posts: 9480 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Hammond's speech yesterday was quite enjoyable as a coded message. Surely, he was really saying that May's ramblings about Brexit are, well, ramblings, especially in relation to hard Brexit, which would decimate some businesses, and make exports difficult in purely physical terms.

Yes, after all the panic in the newspapers over how Labour *might possibly* do something that *might* impinge the country's economics and governance, it's interesting to note how sanguine they are when actual Tory policy really ruins the same things.
Especially as it has been doing so for seven years. Austerity my arse.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 23879 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged



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