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Source: (consider it) Thread: Shake it all about: Brexit thread II
BroJames
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It's very hard to see how any party might want to join the Conservatives in this mess of their own making except for very clear and direct political gain. The previous coalition has warned everyone off that kind of thing, unless they can directly point to the gains they are achieving for those who voted for them. It's not surprising progress with the DUP is very limited since it's not clear that the Conservative party realises this.
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Callan
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My understanding is that the DUP regularly have a pop at the UUP for being in the pocket of the Tories, so I can see that they may want to ensure they get a better pay off than the Lib Dems got in 2010 before signing the piece of vellum, proffered by Theresa Mayfistophilis.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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stonespring
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For those with some knowledge of NI politics - if DUP is tarnished from a deal with the Tories, will that help the UUP, Alliance (which I know is not a Unionist or a Nationalist party), and (shudder) TUV (since DUP voters are unlikely to switch to a Nationalist party)? And/or will it help SF and SDLP (by splitting the Unionist vote and galvanizing Nationalists to show up at the polls)? Or are DUP voters so worried that Brexit will lead SF to push for a border poll that they will stick with the DUP even if they are in bed with the Tories' unpopular policies?
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Doublethink.
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I sometimes wonder what NI unionism is about, given the vision of what society should be is so far from the way the rest of the country wish to live. What is it they so desperately wish to be part of ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink.:
I sometimes wonder what NI unionism is about, given the vision of what society should be is so far from the way the rest of the country wish to live. What is it they so desperately wish to be part of ?

I believe they want to revert to a pre direct-rule Stormont parliament (ie, that which was in effect before 1972), which for practical purposes was an Orange Lodge.

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fletcher christian

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Posted by Doublethink:
quote:

I sometimes wonder what NI unionism is about, given the vision of what society should be is so far from the way the rest of the country wish to live. What is it they so desperately wish to be part of ?

The DUP want a Carson-esque state that they imagine is what Britain is, once was and should be today. Of course, it was never really any of these things. They will do anything to cement the idea of the Union in the minds of the people and most especially their voters and they have a terrible paranoid fear of things like border polls.

The Ulster Unionist Party is a democratic party in favour of the Union, but are looked on as a party that has gone soft, considering their involvement with the Good Friday Agreement and their belief that democracy should prevail even if Northern Ireland was to favour a united Ireland.

Into this crucible the churches of Northern Ireland pour their molten legal to forge something for themselves. In a curious twist of fate NI and the RoI have almost switched roles in this regard, with the churches in the RofI considerably losing their power and authority (more than they should have ever had, in my opinion) while the churches in NI seem to making their grab for power and cementing their position in society despite the fact that their numbers appear to be dropping very considerably. The DUP are more than happy to use the churches of the reformed traditions for their own means. You can see this at work quite clearly in their opposition to GBLT issues; mirroring the current sentiments of the reformed churches throughout NI. They have politicians of an age who grew up in the midst of the worst of the troubles and essentially this is the only version of politics they know so our modern political world, especially with its global considerations is either not understood (and therefore not engaged with) or simply seen as a threat to be opposed. This can make itself known in rather peculiar ways, such as the opposition to stop or halt climate change legislation.

What they really want is a pro pan-Protestant state. I suspect they want nationalists to be considered second class citizens, if not in actual fact second class citizens. They live in a land littered with a strongly Celtic past, but have a desire to be 'British' in terms of how they see and understand it, which does not match up to what Britain is today, or perhaps what it ever was. Ian Paisley attempted to take the DUP in a different direction. He had spent much of his heyday in stirring up political fever and courting the UVF along with other equally unpleasant groups. He did appear to be genuinely ashamed and sorry towards the end of his career at having done this and did say on a number of occasions that he could now see how his actions and speeches did lead to the death of many entirely innocent people. For this turn-about he paid a deeply personal cost. He was deeply criticised by many in the DUP at the time, but being such a 'big' character he was able to keep them in line. Eventually he would even be expelled from the church he founded. Once he was out the way the fields were ripe for a new reaping and the current flotilla of DUP politicians don;t have the same moral qualms as Paisley turned out to have. Just look at how they deliberately incited violence only a few years ago with the flag protests.

This is not to say, of course, that SF are somehow better - they are not. SF are a mirror image of the DUP, except smarter. Frigteningly so.

Cross-posted with Sioni who summed it all up beautifully in much fewer words!

[ 22. June 2017, 09:05: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
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TurquoiseTastic

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But it should be noticed that the DUP has absorbed considerable numbers of former UUP voters, and also MPs (like Arlene Foster herself and the deeply annoying Jeffrey Donaldson). I would suggest that this has diluted the hard line to some extent. The constituency they represent is not as extreme as it once was.
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stonespring
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:


This is not to say, of course, that SF are somehow better - they are not. SF are a mirror image of the DUP, except smarter. Frigteningly so.

How is SF smarter?

And when you say the "churches of NI," do you only mean the reformed churches, or do you also mean the RCC (in support of Nationalism, if it is) and the C of I (In support of what?)?

Also, what specific reformed churches in NI are you referring to? Is the Presbyterian Church in Ireland that bad? Are you mainly referring to the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster? Or are there other reformed churches in NI that I don't know about that you think are important actors in all this?

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stonespring
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quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
But it should be noticed that the DUP has absorbed considerable numbers of former UUP voters, and also MPs (like Arlene Foster herself and the deeply annoying Jeffrey Donaldson). I would suggest that this has diluted the hard line to some extent. The constituency they represent is not as extreme as it once was.

I had thought that a lot of DUP voters switched to them from the UUP some time ago not because they liked DUP's extremism but because they figured that the DUP was the main Unionist party now and the one most likely to wield political power, so they may as well vote for them (especially once many UUP politicians had switched to them).
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Doublethink.
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What do NI unionist voters think, when they see how disgusted the rest of the union are by the DUP ?

Would it help if NI had more political choices ? If the national parties ran candidates there ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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TurquoiseTastic

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Generally they take the Millwall approach: "No-one likes us, we don't care". This is partly cultural I think. Unionists like to think of themselves as dour, serious people who stick to what they believe however unpopular this makes them. If everybody else opposes you, this just goes to show how right you were not to trust them in the first place! Ireland is the enemy, but Britain is treacherous and ready to sell NI down the river at any and every provocation.

As I said, by no means everyone is that extreme, but that's the general worldview even if considerably diluted.

It most definitely would not help if the other UK parties ran candidates. No-one would vote for them. The Conservatives did try. They got nowhere.

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fletcher christian

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Posted by Stonespring:
quote:

How is SF smarter?

DUP politics tends to be quite reactionary a lot of the time, so all SF have to do is mention something contentious and the DUP will be on full rant mode allowing them to get on with other things. They also often appear to be two steps ahead of their opposition. They think through a strategy and exploit various crises in a very wiley way. They also know how to use public spectacle to great political gain. For instance, here in the RofI they hired a prominent venue on Dublin's main street for a exhibition on the 1916 rebellion in 2016. It was seriously well organised and actually very well presented, but had a certain SF thread running through all of it. To me it's twisted history, to some it was Gospel truth. Regardless of what camp you fall into, the action was clever and planned years and years in advance. The DUP tend to - or at least at times appear to - lack that long distance vision.

quote:

And when you say the "churches of NI," do you only mean the reformed churches, or do you also mean the RCC (in support of Nationalism, if it is) and the C of I (In support of what?)?

When I'm speaking about the DUP, then I'm speaking of the reformed churches. The RCC also had a role to play in forwarding the agenda of SF, but they were never afraid to talk politics. The cultural expectation among 'Protestants' was that did not talk politics from the pulpit. Of course, many still did. There were many notable exceptions to all of this and many clergy and members of churches who did very courageous things and who worked counter-culturally to try and find ways forward. Generally speaking though, the churches by and large contributed to the malaise of NI society.

quote:

Also, what specific reformed churches in NI are you referring to? Is the Presbyterian Church in Ireland that bad? Are you mainly referring to the Free Presbyterian Church of Ulster? Or are there other reformed churches in NI that I don't know about that you think are important actors in all this?

All of them, including the Church of Ireland. In many ways the churches became a microcosm of what was going on in society. That is still continuing for the reformed churches (I can't speak for the RCC currently) where the polarisation of society is becoming apparent in church polity; people tend to divide over one particular issue of church polity and look to division and disunity as the only possible way forward. It's a pollination to the extremist positions.

There is also a curious move to consolidate what is seen as 'Protestantism' in NI which appears to moving towards the level of Gospel Hall; where you can be 'saved' and a repentant murderer/terrorist/agitator but you can still hold on to the ideology that gave these actions birth; usually easily identified by hatred and/or disgust. Presbyterianism has gone far down that road in the last two decades leaving many of the 'old fashioned' Presbyterians feeling like they now exist in a wilderness. The CofI appears to be succumbing to this drift also. If Christianity was ever to give birth to an Isis type cult, NI is a prime candidate for its birth. The seed was sown long ago and the fields are ripe.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
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quetzalcoatl
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Lots of people are now talking about a transitional period, since two years is clearly inadequate as a time for making final deals.

However, as with many things about Brexit, 'transition' means different things. For some, a kind of Norway/Swiss/Turkey kind of deal, which replicates the customs union. You would think that business leaders would prefer this.

For others, the runway towards a hard leave. I suppose it also enables people to fake stuff. So they might hope to fool the Ultras by getting a softish Brexit through under a hard name.

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no path

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quetzalcoatl
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I wonder if another factor might be sheer tedium. If there is a deal a bit like a customs union, without free movement, are people really going to go to the barricades over it? It reminds me of some football teams which bore you to a result.

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no path

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder if another factor might be sheer tedium. If there is a deal a bit like a customs union, without free movement, are people really going to go to the barricades over it? It reminds me of some football teams which bore you to a result.

That could well be seen, by the rest of the EU, as perfidious Albion wanting cake and eating it too. I'm pretty sure there won't be an offer of three of the four freedoms (Goods, capital and services), without the contentious fourth, namely freedom for workers and citizens to move within the whole area.

It's certainly the issue that got the "I'm not a racist but" voters to tick the "Leave" box.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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quetzalcoatl
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Damn, I shall have to go off and read about the Turkish customs union now. I think it has free movement of goods, but not services, nor obviously, people. These things are usually about 1500 pages long.

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no path

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
....namely freedom for workers and citizens to move within the whole area.

It's certainly the issue that got the "I'm not a racist but" voters to tick the "Leave" box.

It did feel to many as if the influx of Europeans into the UK was unsustainable. TM is now promising the 3 million already here the right to stay which sounds like a softening of rhetoric. Presumably, having been reelected she believes it safe to pee off the 'send 'em all back' mob element.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
It did feel to many as if the influx of Europeans into the UK was unsustainable.

Feelings are one thing, and certainly many people felt that. But, the response to those feelings was one-sided - the racist groups in our society, supported by large parts of the media, jumped on those feelings and sold the people the lie that their feelings were correct. It was one-sided because very few people were willing to stand up against these liars and proclaim the truth that immigration levels are sustainable - indeed, UK society and economy would be unsustainable without immigration.

quote:
TM is now promising the 3 million already here the right to stay which sounds like a softening of rhetoric. Presumably, having been reelected she believes it safe to pee off the 'send 'em all back' mob element.
Perhaps she does actually recognise that the UK can't afford to lose the people who have come to live here, and those who want to come and work here, but is also too scared to speak the truth. So, she softens the rhetoric as much as possible.

Or, she's simply incompetent and can't figure out what she wants.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
TM is now promising the 3 million already here the right to stay which sounds like a softening of rhetoric.

No. She is promising them the ability to acquire the right to stay here which is far less than that, it's also far less than the offer the Europeans made. Lastly, it's also far less than the measures Cameron wanted to announce but that May vetoed as Home Secretary.
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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Feelings are one thing, and certainly many people felt that. But, the response to those feelings was one-sided - the racist groups in our society, supported by large parts of the media, jumped on those feelings and sold the people the lie that their feelings were correct. It was one-sided because very few people were willing to stand up against these liars and proclaim the truth that immigration levels are sustainable - indeed, UK society and economy would be unsustainable without immigration.

Was it lies that factories and small industries were being set up and filled with immigrant labour without positions ever being offered to locals?
If immigrant labour is such a blessing, and I have no doubt visitors work harder than indigenous Brits, it must be a conundrum for the archetypical lion-hearted Tory who wants Britain for the British while at the same time shipping in overseas labour for increased profit.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Was it lies that factories and small industries were being set up and filled with immigrant labour without positions ever being offered to locals?

I've never seen any verified evidence that that happened. Same with Europeans turning up, getting hip replacements (or whatever) on the NHS and going home. Or any of the other stories that were bandied around in the right wing media. Maybe happened once or twice (and, for small family businesses maybe quite often people employed family members rather than openly advertising), but not often enough to make it a general feature of immigration.

Do un-verified stories reported as factual accounts of widespread practices count as lies?

[ 24. June 2017, 10:08: Message edited by: Alan Cresswell ]

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Stejjie
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Meanwhile, Andrea Leadsome, Leader of the House of Commons, has called for broadcasters to be more "patriotic" in their reporting of Brexit, ie to "pull together" and be more uncritical of the government's position. (The link's to a non-auto-playing video, btw.)

John Simpson, the veteran BBC reporter, described this as a "Soviet" view of patriotism - the broadcaster as propagandist for the government. That seems a worryingly accurate view of what Ms Leadsome is calling for.

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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist

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Jane R
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rolyn:
quote:
I have no doubt visitors work harder than indigenous Brits...
But then you question whether immigrant labour is really a blessing; make up your mind which it is.

The specific problems with agricultural labour, as this guy has belatedly realised, are firstly that it's seasonal (most British workers are looking for steady jobs) secondly, it's hard physical work that older people aren't likely to want (there aren't that many young British people in the labour market), and finally it is very badly paid (what seems like good money to someone from Eastern Europe is peanuts to a native Brit).

Add that to the fact that most farms requiring pickers are in the middle of nowhere (so no large population of nearby natives to draw on) and voila! Instant labour crisis!

Most of the people of working age that I know do work very hard. They do not want to waste their precious time breaking their backs for a pittance picking strawberries in the middle of nowhere so that the likes of Harry Hall can rake in millions. They can get equally badly paid jobs near where they live.

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Doublethink.
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Also, perhaps if we hadn't treated traditional seasonal migrants such as the Roma like shit, they may have been more interested in doing these jobs.

[ 24. June 2017, 11:50: Message edited by: Doublethink. ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Rocinante
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The increasingly loud flapping sound we can all hear is that of chickens coming home to roost.
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leo
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According to the magazine of my professional association, the Department for Education is spending £1.3 billion on an overseas teacher recruitment drive for specialist maths and science teachers and is willing to pay a private company up to £300,000 to focus on recruiting 50 teachers from the Czech Republic, Germany and Poland.

Free movement of labour?

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Eutychus
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This is old news. Forget fruit pickers; you might not have anywhere near enough teachers soon.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Was it lies that factories and small industries were being set up and filled with immigrant labour without positions ever being offered to locals? ...

Yes.

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Enoch
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Second post

quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
Meanwhile, Andrea Leadsom, Leader of the House of Commons, has called for broadcasters to be more "patriotic" in their reporting of Brexit, ie to "pull together" and be more uncritical of the government's position. (The link's to a non-auto-playing video, btw.)

John Simpson, the veteran BBC reporter, described this as a "Soviet" view of patriotism - the broadcaster as propagandist for the government. That seems a worryingly accurate view of what Ms Leadsom is calling for.

John Simpson is right there. But it's not just the Soviet view. The Völkischer Beobachter was much the same. I'm sure Mr Trump sees things the same way.

After the blissful silence of her time at the DoE, when she seems to have said or done next to nothing, she's only been back in the public gaze a few days, and she's let slip once again something that is what one suspects she really thinks rather than the person she's like to present herself as. And again, though divulged to the media, this seems to have been entirely off her own bat, not tricked from her by clever questioning.

Has she given up her higher ambition? I suspect not. Since when has visiting a disaster zone been part of what's expected of the Leader of the House of Commons?

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Jane R
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Enoch asked:
quote:
Since when has visiting a disaster zone been part of what's expected of the Leader of the House of Commons?
Since 1940, at least. And you can still find conspiracy nutters who believe that Churchill deliberately let Coventry burn...

[ 24. June 2017, 19:46: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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rolyn
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You can find historians who believe Churchill deliberately ordered a bombing raid on Berlin to provoke the predictable response from an easily enraged mr. H. By doing so the heat was turned from a beleaguered RAF to British civilians and undoubtedly prevented an invasion.

Maybe Britain's population still has invasion paranoia embedded in it's psychology, hence last year's Referendum result.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Enoch asked:
quote:
Since when has visiting a disaster zone been part of what's expected of the Leader of the House of Commons?
Since 1940, at least. And you can still find conspiracy nutters who believe that Churchill deliberately let Coventry burn...
Churchill was Prime Minister and war leader. The Leader of the House of Commons is only a middle ranking figure with responsibility for managing government business in the House. He or she doesn't necessarily even have a place in the Cabinet and is below the level that receives a ministerial salary.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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stonespring
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# 15530

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Can someone explain the difference between settled status in the UK and the many other forms of almost-citizenship that exist in the UK and actual citizenship? It appears that many categories of non-citizens in the UK can vote, and some can get a UK passport. Does that mean that for many people with these kinds of almost-citizenship, the only difference between them and a UK citizen is that UK citizens cannot be deported? Here in the US, the big differences between having a green card and being a citizen is that only citizens can vote and run for state and federal office (although some local jurisdictions are experimenting with allowing non-citizens to vote in local elections), people with green cards can still lose their green cards and be deported for committing serious crimes, and people with green cards can lose their green cards if they spend a long time outside the US (also people with green cards do not give US citizenship to their children if those children are not born on US soil). One of the main reasons that, before the Tea Party and then Trumpism blew up chances of legal status for undocumented immigrants as part of comprehensive immigration reform, moderate Republicans in Congress could not reach an agreement with Democrats was that moderate Republicans were ok with undocumented immigrants being eventually able to get Green Cards (permanent residency visas), but they were not ok with them ever being able to become citizens (whereas most all Democrats insisted on their being able to become citizens (after a looooong process that involved paying a fine, learning English, working and being model upright people for years and years, and having a super duper "extreme vetting" application process where they could be denied for all kinds of reasons).

What kind of process is involved in becoming a UK citizen? How long does it take once you have achieved the next-closest to citizenship status, whatever that is?

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lilBuddha
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Who may vote.

[i]Three words and I still misspell. [brick wall]

[ 26. June 2017, 18:54: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Jane R
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Enoch:
quote:
The Leader of the House of Commons is only a middle ranking figure...
My bad, I misread your original post.
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stonespring
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Who may vote.

[i]Three words and I still misspell. [brick wall]

Ok so it seems non-Irish EU citizens allowed to stay in the UK post Brexit will not be able to vote for the Westminster Parliament, but they will be able to vote in local and regional elections.

But citizens of Commonwealth Countries resident in the UK can vote in Westminster Parliamentary elections. Is the UK unusual in allowing so many non-citizens to vote in its local and national elections? Is there any resentment towards this? Aside from freedom from deportation, what are the main legal differences between UK citizens and Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK?

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Who may vote.

[i]Three words and I still misspell. [brick wall]

Ok so it seems non-Irish EU citizens allowed to stay in the UK post Brexit will not be able to vote for the Westminster Parliament, but they will be able to vote in local and regional elections.
This will have to be negotiated.
quote:

But citizens of Commonwealth Countries resident in the UK can vote in Westminster Parliamentary elections. Is the UK unusual in allowing so many non-citizens to vote in its local and national elections?

Nope.
Foreigner voting rights
quote:

Aside from freedom from deportation, what are the main legal differences between UK citizens and Commonwealth citizens resident in the UK?

Benefits are one. Right to which and how much depend on what type of resident one is.
Commonwealth citizen

[ 28. June 2017, 19:32: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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quote:
Originally posted by Stejjie:
Meanwhile, Andrea Leadsome, Leader of the House of Commons, has called for broadcasters to be more "patriotic" in their reporting of Brexit

Interesting. Our former leader said something similar of the ABC, that it should be "on Australia's side". The managing director responded the ABC was the national, not state, broadcaster.
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Jane R
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Patriotism is love of your country. If you love your country, you want to do things that will be good for it.

Ideas of what is good for the country may differ.

Like Michael Heseltine (that well-known Trotskyite), I do not enjoy seeing my country humiliated. Pointing out to the increasingly delusional government that Britain is being humiliated, that it has become the laughing-stock of Europe as a direct result of their policies and will continue to be humiliated for as long as they persist in their fantasies, IS patriotic.

Never thought I'd find myself agreeing with Michael Hesel-swine...

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Patriotism is love of your country. If you love your country, you want to do things that will be good for it.

Ideas of what is good for the country may differ.

Like Michael Heseltine (that well-known Trotskyite), I do not enjoy seeing my country humiliated. Pointing out to the increasingly delusional government that Britain is being humiliated, that it has become the laughing-stock of Europe as a direct result of their policies and will continue to be humiliated for as long as they persist in their fantasies, IS patriotic.

Never thought I'd find myself agreeing with Michael Hesel-swine...

Ah well, we've always been seen as 'Insel Affe' (island monkies). It makes me laugh with them, we are a strange crowd of folks. And we've always been a little 'separate' from Europe - due to being and island, maybe.

But I don't know how to love my country, I don't understand the concept. I can love people and animals and enjoy many places. Maybe it's because I wasn't brought up here.

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Garden. Room. Walk

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quetzalcoatl
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Well, there is no such thing as 'your country'. OK, it exists as a concept, and maybe you can love a concept, but in concrete experience, no. Still, I suppose it's just one of countless reifications which go on all the time.

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no path

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Sioni Sais
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Dr Johnson defined patriotism as the last refuge of a scoundrel but Ambrose Bierce had it right when he modified it to the first.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Jane R
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I actually think of the people in my city when I think of my country. I want to live in a country where noone is hungry (except from choice) and noone has to live in a fire-trap because their landlord won't fix it and they can't afford anywhere else. A country where all children get a good education, where everyone who can benefit from higher education is able to go to university. A country where nobody has to worry about how they will pay the medical bills if they fall ill or are injured. A country that is welcoming to everyone, respects their human rights and treats them with dignity. Not because they've done something to deserve it, but because it's the right thing to do for fellow human beings. A country that is basically respected by its international allies, even if some of them tease us about being 'Insel Affe' (thanks Boogie) or 'rosbifs'.

I used to live in a country like that. Or at least, I thought I did.

ETA: maybe this is part of the problem. The Right talk about 'country', the Left talk about 'society', which is what I've just described.

[ 29. June 2017, 14:59: Message edited by: Jane R ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, there is no such thing as 'your country'. OK, it exists as a concept, and maybe you can love a concept, but in concrete experience, no. Still, I suppose it's just one of countless reifications which go on all the time.

It is innate. But if people would understand that and think beyond, it would certainly help.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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rolyn
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Love of Country is a burden of sorts. Like any love potential it makes a person vulnerable to seduction.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
I want to live in a country where noone is hungry (except from choice)

Ay, there's the rub.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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PaulTH*
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# 320

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Following the large defeat of Chuka Umunna's amendment to the Queens Speech, requiring Britain to remain in the Single Market and Customs Union, Labour's position on Brexit has become so incoherent as to be dishonest. Chuka, who I sincerely wish was Labour's leader, knows full well that in order to stay in the SM and CU, the UK would have to continue to accept free movement of people and the oversight of the European Court of Justice. He would argue that it's a price worth paying. It's the standard approach of Remainers who've been forced to accept the reality of Brexit, but who want to minimise the damage. But both Jezza and Marxist Mac have ruled out membership of the SM, and Keir Starmer has opposed the ECJ still having authority post Brexit.

So if Labour oppose Chuka's amendment, why didn't they vote against it? Instead Corbyn, who has voted against the party whip more often than most members, imposed a three line whip to abstain, and has sacked three shadow cabinet members who defied him. Labour talk these days is about retaining "all the benefits of the SM and CU" without explaining how. It has been clear from the get go that if Britain rejects free movement of people, any deal we reach on access to the SM will be inferior to what we enjoy today. That may cost jobs and damage prosperity. Labour's shadow Brexit team know this well, so why don't they tell us how they would handle this paradox? If we reject free movement and the ECJ, we will be ejected from the SM with or without a deal.

What Labour is hoping for is that when this happens, they can blame it all on the government, soak up any social unrest it may cause and march into Downing St with their Marxist claptrap. It may work. But what the country needs now, as many have said, is a cross party consensus as to how to conduct Brexit. When Chuka Umunna tabled his amendment in the Commons, every member should have voted for it or against it, and not hid behind an abstention with the purpose of causing maximum trouble later. But we're so lacking in honest politics these days.

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Yours in Christ
Paul

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mr cheesy
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They're all mad. I don't know what they think they're playing at.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
Following the large defeat of Chuka Umunna's amendment to the Queens Speech, requiring Britain to remain in the Single Market and Customs Union, Labour's position on Brexit has become so incoherent as to be dishonest. Chuka, who I sincerely wish was Labour's leader,

That would be the same Chuka Umunna who - a few months back when Corbyn was being portrayed in the media as being soft on immigration - stated categorically that in his opinion leaving the SM was a price worth paying in order to control Freedom of Movement.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/chuka-umunna-single-market-free-movement-brexit_uk_57e3e201e4b0db20a6e8b057

So presumably he believes in a near-imaginary variant of SM which doesn't include the FoM clauses.

I don't carry a torch for Corbyn on this issue - but it was hard to see Umunna's stance as anything other than grandstanding and political.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
They're all mad. I don't know what they think they're playing at.

Everyone is paralyzed and running scared of the press if they are seen to not play lip service to Brexit, OTOH most of the sane ones don't want to actually be in the position to have implemented Brexit because they fear the electoral consequences in the aftermath.

The only people who are certain of their position are the loons - Hannan, Rees-Mogg, Redwood et al.

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