|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Shake it all about: Brexit thread II
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
This from Leave.EU on twitter:
quote:
Complete Capitulation - UK-EU joint report: "In the absence of agreed solutions, the United Kingdom will maintain FULL ALIGNMENT with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation."
So... um..
Yes, I didn't think they'd like that, but notice there is plenty of wiggle room to decide just which rules of the Internal Market etc. "support North-South cooperation", and that is a last-ditch option.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Yes, I didn't think they'd like that, but notice there is plenty of wiggle room to decide just which rules of the Internal Market etc. "support North-South cooperation", and that is a last-ditch option.
Well yyyyeess, although I suppose one can think of a few things that would be necessary if the current situation in Ireland was to continue.
For example, people in NI are entitled to live and work and travel to the Republic - and I think by extension citizens of the RoI can continue to do the reverse in the whole of the UK. Which, unless the EU is going to say that rules apply in Ireland that don't apply anywhere else, appears to leave the door open to freedom to live and work for Brits in the EU and EU citizens in the UK. It might not be the EU's "freedom of movement", but it looks a lot like it.
Of course, there is the issue of the UK-RoI customs area. Perhaps the truth is that the RoI is going to end up being treated differently to the rest of the EU.
The UK will be out-but-not-really, the RoI will be in-but-not-really. By necessity there would be a customs border between the RoI and the EU in the same way that there would be between the UK and the UK.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
|
Posted
How can this stick unless "Brexit doesn't mean Brexit?"
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
|
Posted
Well, maybe if you can believe six impossible things before breakfast...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
Simple, the government (or the Leave campaign groups during the referendum) refused to define Brexit as what they want to achieve. Now they're free to define it as whatever arrangement they manage to negotiate. Which is a definition that means they can't lose.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Nicola Sturgeon seems to agree it looks more like staying in the Single Market and Customs Union than anything that has emerged to date.
I notice some very careful wording in those two articles that seems to exclude the freedom of movement for workers.
Having the single market without freedom of movement is pretty much what the majority of Leavers wanted from the start. If it ends up happening that will be a massive win for them.
--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Well I suspect that NI would have freedom of movement as well.
It's easy enough to restrict the Single Market for the rest of the UK other than NI, not so much between NI and Ireland. Restricting the movement of people between NI and the rest of the UK is of course easy though.
Which is why I still think there's an outside chance of this delivering a massive best-of-all-worlds win for the province. The DUP have certainly proved they have plenty of leverage in the whole deal.
[ 08. December 2017, 09:14: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Well I suspect that NI would have freedom of movement as well.
It's easy enough to restrict the Single Market for the rest of the UK other than NI, not so much between NI and Ireland. Restricting the movement of people between NI and the rest of the UK is of course easy though.
Which is why I still think there's an outside chance of this delivering a massive best-of-all-worlds win for the province. The DUP have certainly proved they have plenty of leverage in the whole deal.
It seems that the DUP has insisted that any deal that applies to NI also applies to the rest of the UK.
Ironically, I think this means that the UK basically retains the various aspects of the CM on the basis that NI keeps them.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It seems that the DUP has insisted that any deal that applies to NI also applies to the rest of the UK.
What makes you say that?
Article 50 says: quote:
the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland.
That seems to allow room for a special status to emerge for NI.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What makes you say that?
Well this seems to be what the British press is reporting is the position of the DUP.
Arlene Foster quoted in the Express:
quote:
“We said that politically, economically and constitutionally as well it was vitally important that the integrity of the United Kingdom was kept in place and that’s why we had concerns on Monday and we’ve been working throughout the week in relation to those matters.”
Speaking to Sky she added: “There have been changes made throughout the text and indeed we believe there have been six substantial changes.
“We’re pleased to see those changes because for me it means there’s no red line down the Irish sea and we have the very clear confirmation that the entirety of the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union, leaving the single market, leaving the customs union and I think that’s a very important statement to have.”
This tweet sets out what those points are, including:
quote:
There will be no so-called 'special status' for Northern Ireland
[ 08. December 2017, 09:30: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
I try and stay away from all this nonsense (Brexit, not the thread - although I try and stay away from that too for the sake of my blood pressure) but have had a look around the bazaars at reaction. Oddly, the most balanced (IMO) have been the FT and ConservativeHome. Oddly because they ought to be the two citadels for remain and leave.
The editorial of the latter makes the excellent point that anyone (in the media or otherwise) giving their searing hot take on what any of it means this morning cannot possibly know. Next week/month/year, maybe.
But the people seizing magpie like on the bits that they think they like, or indeed hate within hours of publication, have potentially got the wrong end of the stick at this point and would do better to have a cup of tea and read a book.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
Having said all that, as a fence sitter who decided on the day to vote remain, I reckon I can live with the shape of this (with the caveats about not knowing exactly how it's going to pan out).
My take from a happy couple of hours trying to understand the shape of reaction (thankfully as part of my job) is broadly:
soft leavers and pragmatic/soft remainers are relatively happy, in the spirit of "just get on with it now"
Hard leavers are unhappy because they think they've been sold out, but at the same time some of their figureheads are happy - so they're a bit leaderless. Farage is agin it, but not all hard leavers are Farage fans.
Hard remainers are unhappy because (as the narrative building seems to see it) Brussels has thrown May a lifeline, making it more unlikely that the govt will collapse, and consequently more unlikely that Brexit will be stopped. How they square that with the Labour Party not being in favour of stopping Brexit (today, anyway) I don't know.
Andrew Neil had a great line last night about how no one saw "weak and stable leadership" coming, but it appears to be what we've ended up with.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Arlene Foster quoted in the Express:
quote:
we have the very clear confirmation that the entirety of the United Kingdom is leaving the European Union, leaving the single market, leaving the customs union and I think that’s a very important statement to have.
I think she is spinning the text of the joint statement.
As I understand the text, if NI as part of the UK leaves the single market the UK has to maintain near-identical provisions to the single market for NI (which is a near being in the single market as makes no difference): quote:
the United Kingdom will maintain full alignment with those rules of the Internal Market and the Customs Union which, now or in the future, support North-South cooperation...
The only way this can be avoided, AIUI, is if Stormont comes to a special agreement with Ireland. quote:
This tweet sets out what those points are, including:
quote:
There will be no so-called 'special status' for Northern Ireland
This appears to fly in the face of at least one option in the agreed text: quote:
the United Kingdom [must, if it doesn't reach an overall deal with the EU for the UK as a whole] propose specific solutions to address the unique circumstances of the island of Ireland [ie not Scotland, sorry Nicola]...the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly [may] agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
All that said I agree with Betjemaniac that this at least buys some time to move forward with the negotiations. Although as Tusk said, there is less time for the harder bits remaining than it took to get to this point.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
but "distinct arrangements" are not a "special status"....
Seriously, I think overall we've basically ruled out a hard Brexit, which is nice. There will more likely as a result of this be a deal of some sort, which most people can live with.
The headbangers wrapped in the Union Jack can go and boil their heads, as can those idiots on the other side who've cracked out the EU Christmas jumpers (2 seen this morning alone), and everyone else, fingers crossed and with a great deal of luck, have this morning got quite a good chance of being able to get on with their lives while the loonies on both sides howl at the moon.
In the words of Private Eye, trebles all round.
From my position back on top of the fence, there's many a slip twixt etc, but it's more cheerful up here this morning.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Article 50 says: quote:
the United Kingdom will ensure that no new regulatory barriers develop between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom, unless, consistent with the 1998 Agreement, the Northern Ireland Executive and Assembly agree that distinct arrangements are appropriate for Northern Ireland.
That seems to allow room for a special status to emerge for NI.
I'm not sure if you're looking at the same version of the text as I am, but para 50 of mine also has this sentence, which seems important and germane.
quote:
In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland's businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.
[ 08. December 2017, 10:05: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Although as Tusk said, there is less time for the harder bits remaining than it took to get to this point.
True - but that (IMO) argues strongly for off-the-shelf-with-a-bit-of-fiddling.
I think the options are now Norway or Canada, with either deal being punted forward by Brussels, then some arguing about some bits. Trade derogations if it's Norway, adding in (some) services if it's Canada. The UK may not get what it wants, but I think fully bespoke is off the table. Or it ought to be anyway.
Interesting were the reactions this morning of the people at the centre - relief from Juncker and May, Barnier looked like a broken/angry man. Not sure what that says, perhaps he's just tired. A cynic might suggest that he had his job taken back by EU centre last night, and they've compromised on some things he's spent the last however many months saying the EU weren't going to compromise on... Don't know - I offer that purely as an observation.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
Also, it looks like para 54 leaves the door open to freedom of movement with the EU
quote:
. Both Parties recognise that the United Kingdom and Ireland may continue to make arrangements between themselves relating to the movement of persons between their territories (Common Travel Area), while fully respecting the rights of natural persons conferred by Union law. The United Kingdom confirms and accepts that the Common Travel Area and associated rights and privileges can continue to operate without affecting Ireland’s obligations under Union law, in particular with respect to free movement for EU citizens.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Also, it looks like para 54 leaves the door open to freedom of movement with the EU
quote:
. Both Parties recognise that the United Kingdom and Ireland may continue to make arrangements between themselves relating to the movement of persons between their territories (Common Travel Area), while fully respecting the rights of natural persons conferred by Union law. The United Kingdom confirms and accepts that the Common Travel Area and associated rights and privileges can continue to operate without affecting Ireland’s obligations under Union law, in particular with respect to free movement for EU citizens.
Gosh, that takes some parsing - might also be where Barnier got his sad on from, given that earlier this week that wasn't going to happen. It's also the sight of a can flying down the road....
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
More agreement with betjemaniac from me here and I hope he's right about a Norway/Canada solution.
I'll be interested to see Fletcher Christian's take.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm not sure if you're looking at the same version of the text as I am, but para 50 of mine also has this sentence, which seems important and germane.
quote:
In all circumstances, the United Kingdom will continue to ensure the same unfettered access for Northern Ireland's businesses to the whole of the United Kingdom internal market.
I'm not sure what your point is. That doesn't rule out special privileged status of NI with respect to Ireland, ie NI getting a better deal than anywhere else.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Gosh, that takes some parsing - might also be where Barnier got his sad on from, given that earlier this week that wasn't going to happen. It's also the sight of a can flying down the road....
I think to some extent the EU has capitulated and has now offered as a minimum a third country to have full CM access to an EU country - and via it to the rest of the EU without it actually being in the EU.
The only available ways forward seem to me to be bad for the EU. If the UK gets a good trade deal, the EU is basically toast. If there is no trade deal, then Ireland is probably toast wrt the rest of the EU.
The UK is free to have trade deals with other places, will continue accessing Ireland and by extension presumably the rest of the EU. Ireland can see the advantage, because think of all that stuff that is going to be flowing through Ireland.
Quite what happens to the WTO rules and tariffs, I have no idea. If the EU imposes them, presumably they're now aware that they'd be screwing the RoI.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
Hmm. I note that paragraph about "unfettered access" seems to only specify traffic one way...
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I'm not sure what your point is. That doesn't rule out special privileged status of NI with respect to Ireland, ie NI getting a better deal than anywhere else.
Not sure how you get this point. If there is no barrier between the UK and NI, then it is basically free trade between the UK and the EU - providing it is via the RoI. Any "privilege" given to NI (wrt trade, for example), is by definition also going to apply to the rest of the UK.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Gosh, that takes some parsing - might also be where Barnier got his sad on from, given that earlier this week that wasn't going to happen. It's also the sight of a can flying down the road....
I think to some extent the EU has capitulated and has now offered as a minimum a third country to have full CM access to an EU country - and via it to the rest of the EU without it actually being in the EU.
The only available ways forward seem to me to be bad for the EU. If the UK gets a good trade deal, the EU is basically toast. If there is no trade deal, then Ireland is probably toast wrt the rest of the EU.
The UK is free to have trade deals with other places, will continue accessing Ireland and by extension presumably the rest of the EU. Ireland can see the advantage, because think of all that stuff that is going to be flowing through Ireland.
Quite what happens to the WTO rules and tariffs, I have no idea. If the EU imposes them, presumably they're now aware that they'd be screwing the RoI.
Genuine question (have to write that otherwise it's going to look like I'm dismissing all that out of hand, when I'm in fact *really* not),
That can't possibly be what it means though? Can it?
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
That can't possibly be what it means though? Can it?
Again, I'm basically concluding it is a holding position. The problem is going to be if the UK now shrug, give up on a trade deal and accept this backstop deal.
As far as I can see, this is a lot, lot better than a hard brexit. And it isn't good for the EU as far as I can see.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Again, I'm basically concluding it is a holding position. The problem is going to be if the UK now shrug, give up on a trade deal and accept this backstop deal.
As far as I can see, this is a lot, lot better than a hard brexit. And it isn't good for the EU as far as I can see.
So far we don't know what 'regulatory alignment' will actually look like, and we don't know the details of what sectors this will cover.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
we don't know the details of what sectors this will cover.
well we could, because it appears to be anything in the Good Friday Agreement. Which is by no means everything, but is quite a lot.
Off the top of my head I know agriculture's in there, I *think* pharma is, but it was all spelled out in 1998 so it's written down somewhere.
[ 08. December 2017, 10:48: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
TurquoiseTastic
Fish of a different color
# 8978
|
Posted
You would think it must be at least OK for the EU - otherwise why would they have agreed to it?
In which case the outcome seems really rather surprisingly good for everyone? On first impressions?
Posts: 1092 | From: Hants., UK | Registered: Jan 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
You would think it must be at least OK for the EU - otherwise why would they have agreed to it?
... because the alternative is utter chaos in Ireland?
quote:
In which case the outcome seems really rather surprisingly good for everyone? On first impressions?
I'm struggling to see how this is good for the EU.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TurquoiseTastic:
You would think it must be at least OK for the EU - otherwise why would they have agreed to it?
In which case the outcome seems really rather surprisingly good for everyone? On first impressions?
Do you know, I actually (and cautiously) think it might be.
However, on why the EU would have agreed to it.... it comes back to why the extreme Remainers are so cross this morning. This deal props up Mrs May, and makes Brexit more likely.
The EU is staring at losing 12% of budget contributions, so it's in their interests to ensure that this happens gracefully rather than cliff-edgily, and whilst holding on to as much as posible (in terms of money, and trading arrangements). The last thing they want is a change of PM, with the potential for someone much more hardline coming in, or a change of govt - which would change the whole team and negotiating strategy - but crucially would do so after another delay for an election, etc.
It's in the EU's interests to hold our hand and help us out of the door with the current team in charge, because that way they retain some control over how it happens (and consequently what damage is inflicted on the way).
I'd say that the last bit of "Brexit can be stopped" hope on the Remain side died last night. But, conversely, so did the hard Brexit fantasy of the radical right (and, to be fair, the radical left).
I really hope I'm right.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
If as betjemaniac and I hope the result is Norway-like, I don't think the EU can be seen to have lost out that much. By leaving, the UK loses decision-making power.
Where this is likely to go down badly in the UK is with the "take back control" brigade. Even if Norway isn't bound by ECJ decisions, this article seems to think the EFTA court is subservient to it.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If as betjemaniac and I hope the result is Norway-like, I don't think the EU can be seen to have lost out that much. By leaving, the UK loses decision-making power.
Where this is likely to go down badly in the UK is with the "take back control" brigade. Even if Norway isn't bound by ECJ decisions, this article seems to think the EFTA court is subservient to it.
Being entirely honest, if the choice were Norway or Canada then even as a (reluctant/pragmatic) remainer, I would take Canada.
[ 08. December 2017, 11:26: Message edited by: betjemaniac ]
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
The headbangers wrapped in the Union Jack can go and boil their heads, as can those idiots on the other side who've cracked out the EU Christmas jumpers (2 seen this morning alone)
"All I want for Christmas is EU". I've been thinking of getting one of those. Because it's still an undoubted fact that the UK electorate has been duped by a load of porky pies into believing that it's better to leave the EU than stay in. So, I'm all for exercising the democratic right to campaign against a stupid policy decision, and to do all we can to rectify as far as possible the mess created by the idiots who sold a very small majority of the people a pile of codswallop. There's nothing IMO idiotic about exercising democratic rights by any and all legal means (so, I'm going to rule out acts of violence and intimidation - even though some Brexit supporters have gone down that route), even if that means wearing stupid jumpers.
--------------------
Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
Being entirely honest, if the choice were Norway or Canada then even as a (reluctant/pragmatic) remainer, I would take Canada.
Scrolling back, here's what I had to say about that in August. I see this was apparently Theresa May's preference all along, but I don't imagine it to be very likely.
In the meantime, how do we get Alan not to waste his letter to Santa Claus?
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
The best bit, was when Michel Barnier was asked what the EU ha conceded. He thought for a moment and noted that the EU had not charged the UK for moving the two regulatory agencies that had been hosted in the UK prior to Brexit. This is like watching Omar steal a shed load of heroin from Prop Joe and Cheese and sell it back to them. It would be even more entertaining if it was someone else's country looking like fools.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
The headbangers wrapped in the Union Jack can go and boil their heads, as can those idiots on the other side who've cracked out the EU Christmas jumpers (2 seen this morning alone)
"All I want for Christmas is EU". I've been thinking of getting one of those. Because it's still an undoubted fact that the UK electorate has been duped by a load of porky pies into believing that it's better to leave the EU than stay in. So, I'm all for exercising the democratic right to campaign against a stupid policy decision, and to do all we can to rectify as far as possible the mess created by the idiots who sold a very small majority of the people a pile of codswallop. There's nothing IMO idiotic about exercising democratic rights by any and all legal means (so, I'm going to rule out acts of violence and intimidation - even though some Brexit supporters have gone down that route), even if that means wearing stupid jumpers.
well absolutely - but as I said my preference would be for both fringes to do it quietly, and preferably somewhere else!
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
If as betjemaniac and I hope the result is Norway-like, I don't think the EU can be seen to have lost out that much. By leaving, the UK loses decision-making power.
Where this is likely to go down badly in the UK is with the "take back control" brigade. Even if Norway isn't bound by ECJ decisions, this article seems to think the EFTA court is subservient to it.
Being entirely honest, if the choice were Norway or Canada then even as a (reluctant/pragmatic) remainer, I would take Canada.
But Canada doesn't have a land border with the EU. That, the GFA and Britain's "special relationship" with Ireland (whether one means the Republic or the geographical entity) put us in a very different category.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
This is like watching Omar steal a shed load of heroin from Prop Joe and Cheese and sell it back to them.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Maybe, but it's a fair point.
What the f*ck is all this wretchedness going to achieve?
IMHO, nothing good.....except for massaging the ego of Nigel Garbage and his ilk.
![[Projectile]](graemlins/puke2.gif)
IJ
--------------------
Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Want to bet that they'll be partying hard in the Irish foreign ministry tonight, the Guinness flowing, and so on? It seems ironic that the Irish border was ignored by many hard Brexiteers, as somehow insignificant, yet in a way it has led to the reverse engineering of the whole thing, apparently.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I noticed an interesting view that this is a presentational deal - in other words, we leave the single market and customs union in name, but carry on obeying the regs and rules of them. This would mean that May satisfies the Ultras by leaving, and satisfies the softies by in effect, staying. If this is correct, it will be seen as quite a coup by her. On the other hand, it may be accidental.
Another view is that the EU decided to keep May on life support for a while. Amusing, if cynical.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
|
Posted
A few things have become clearer to me over the past couple of years.
One of which is how the EU made the Good-Friday Agreement possible. Or at least much easier. The kind of cross-border arrangements that the nationalist community really wanted (and benefited all) whilst remaining fully part of the UK was so easy to acheive when the Republic of Ireland and the United Kingdom were both soverign nations who had signed upto a series of multi-national cooperation agreements. (Aka the EU).
Another important point here is that no deal is very bad for the UK. Literally planes not being able to fly until specific arrangements put in place (as with so many sectors, the UK, for very good reasons the UK uses EU mechanisms - of course it would be possible to do these things without the EU but they would need to be set up from scratch). No deal is also bad for the EU so it's not in their interests. The key point here is that no deal is far worse for the UK than the EU.
As far as I can see, the current deal is a big climb-down for Theresa May (from her rhetoric) because the default if things not sorted is for the UK to remain in the common market and the customs union for a transition period.
This is really good news for the UK as it seems to ensure that the no-deal fantasy will be avoided.
AFZ
--------------------
Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
It's either a climb-down or clever presentational politics. We are leaving the single market (but we'll follow its regs).
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's either a climb-down or clever presentational politics. We are leaving the single market (but we'll follow its regs).
I agree. It seems to have been accepted by all but the headbangers (who forced us into this sorry state) that are going to get either sweet FA or a deal that, when the eyes are crossed and the tees dotted, will be damn near indistinguishable from membership. Just no seats in the European parliament, no commissioners, no Brits in Brussels of the ECJ, etc, etc.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
|
Posted
Yes, it looks very much like LINO (Leaving In Name Only), if it really happens I'll be happy with that as the least worst outcome (other than actually staying in).
Of course, there are plenty of opportunities for the wheels to come off further down the road.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Yes, it looks very much like LINO (Leaving In Name Only), if it really happens I'll be happy with that as the least worst outcome (other than actually staying in).
Yes.
It may even be the best outcome?
No more Ukipper and brexiteer bleating!
--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
No more Ukipper and brexiteer bleating!
Why should we not bleat? What have you got against people who really care for their country airing their views?
--------------------
Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Yes, it looks very much like LINO (Leaving In Name Only), if it really happens I'll be happy with that as the least worst outcome (other than actually staying in).
Yes.
It may even be the best outcome?
No more Ukipper and brexiteer bleating!
We're leaving the jurisdiction of the ECJ (eventually). That alone is more than 'name only', isn't it?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
Yes, it looks very much like LINO (Leaving In Name Only), if it really happens I'll be happy with that as the least worst outcome (other than actually staying in).
Yes.
It may even be the best outcome?
No more Ukipper and brexiteer bleating!
We're leaving the jurisdiction of the ECJ (eventually). That alone is more than 'name only', isn't it?
True. I hope it keeps the nutbars happy, but I strongly suspect it won't be enough.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
