|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: You've got a lot of nerve
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Ah, but then would you say that Joyce was not a poet? Or that his idiosyncratic style eliminated him from literature? That is what I think some here are doing, substituting personal taste for standard.
No but if the only thing I ever read by him was Ulysses, I might say he's not a novelist.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
I read maybe 20 pgs. or so of "Portrait Of The Artist As A Young Man", and quit. Too many "pretty little moo-cows"! Not in a rush to try "Ulysses", from what I've heard of it.
Irish-American writer Adela Rogers St. John said that she thought Joyce pulled off the greatest hoax ever pulled off by an Irishman. (In her wonderful novel "Tell No Man".)
![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
If he had had a reliable source of Immodium, Ulysses might have been a short story.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Og--
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
The assumption I haven't heard Dylan is based on what exactly?
I personally have on my Spotify music from the 50's through to a couple of weeks ago, plus a lot of classical. Including some Dylan.
I stand by what I say. Dylan's memory is cultivated by a generation that doesn't see much good in music that has occurred since. I see little of him, either lyrically or musically, in decent pop music since then (and I don't have an issue with the word pop - some of it is crap a lot of it is just good enough to catch the ear, some of it is finely crafted art).
Nobel prizes for Literature are given for memories of what used to be. That's Dylan.
Now if you don't mind me, I'm going to go listen to the intricacies of a pure pop Carly Rae Jepsen song. (Run Away with Me)
Oh, your mid-life crisis is going to be fun. You're already doing "darn kids, get off my lawn" AND "darn hippy Nobel poet laureate geezers, get off my lawn"!
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
[ 16. October 2016, 03:43: Message edited by: Golden Key ]
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Og & H/As--
If my post just above was too personal--esp. for Purg--I apologize.
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I read maybe 20 pgs. or so of "Portrait Of The Artist As A Young Man", and quit. Too many "pretty little moo-cows"!
I think you got about twice as far as I managed.
![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
Just to get rid of the idea that this has anything to do with influence on popular music--if it was about that, they'd give it to the Beatles, who were far more important as composers and performers. But no one would think of even the best Beatles lyrics as literature.
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Just to get rid of the idea that this has anything to do with influence on popular music--if it was about that, they'd give it to the Beatles, who were far more important as composers and performers. But no one would think of even the best Beatles lyrics as literature
When Dylan came along the Beatles were only writing about boy meets girl. Dylan, following in the Woody Guthrie tradition, wrote about social issues as well. Though he has sold far fewer records than Michael Jackson or Madonna, his influence over lyricism, and even his peculiar style of phrasing have been copied time out of number. While I love the Beatles and acknowledge that they too exerted an enormous influence over a whole generation, Dylan's influence completely altered the consciousness of the world. The controversy to me would be whether or not you can consider songwriting to be literature. But I'm glad he won the award.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
When Dylan came along the Beatles were only writing about boy meets girl.
And they progressed beyond love songs. I'd argue that plenty of Beatles songs can be read as poetry as well, but I don't think they would merit consideration of a Nobel.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
I remember that John Lennon actually had a book of poetry published - "In His Own Write". My older sister had a copy and I remember it as being absolute rubbish - although, to be fair, it must have been fairly early on (?around 1964).
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Timothy the Obscure
Mostly Friendly
# 292
|
Posted
It got him compared to Joyce, Some of the puns could have been in Ulysses, other than that it's mildly entertaining.
--------------------
When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
- C. P. Snow
Posts: 6114 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
I haven't read the thread, but I want to give a little Nod to Bob, one of my very favorite musicians for the last 30 years, and the name of a tribute album I own.
I'd also like to nominate "One more Cup of Coffee" as one of my favorite Dylan songs. It's not that much of a poem, but I find the combination of the words, his voice and the music sublime.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Just to get rid of the idea that this has anything to do with influence on popular music--if it was about that, they'd give it to the Beatles, who were far more important as composers and performers. But no one would think of even the best Beatles lyrics as literature
When Dylan came along the Beatles were only writing about boy meets girl. Dylan, following in the Woody Guthrie tradition, wrote about social issues as well. Though he has sold far fewer records than Michael Jackson or Madonna, his influence over lyricism, and even his peculiar style of phrasing have been copied time out of number. While I love the Beatles and acknowledge that they too exerted an enormous influence over a whole generation, Dylan's influence completely altered the consciousness of the world. The controversy to me would be whether or not you can consider songwriting to be literature. But I'm glad he won the award.
Just reading slightly upthread. I think Dylan was part of a movement going on in America at the time. He wasn't an outlier by any means. I think he became the most successful member of that movement, with incredible variation and longevity, but I would counsel against the use of consciousness altering phrases. He was great, he was brilliant, and he was part of a large movement for social change.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I read maybe 20 pgs. or so of "Portrait Of The Artist As A Young Man", and quit. Too many "pretty little moo-cows"! Not in a rush to try "Ulysses", from what I've heard of it.
Irish-American writer Adela Rogers St. John said that she thought Joyce pulled off the greatest hoax ever pulled off by an Irishman. (In her wonderful novel "Tell No Man".)
Joyce is up there in my pantheon of the literary gods, too
--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
I'd also like to nominate "One more Cup of Coffee" as one of my favorite Dylan songs. It's not that much of a poem, but I find the combination of the words, his voice and the music sublime.
it's a goody, but part of that for me was that Emmylou's voice had my testosterone doing cartwheels ... oh dear God I've never reovered
--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Just reading slightly upthread. I think Dylan was part of a movement going on in America at the time. He wasn't an outlier by any means. I think he became the most successful member of that movement, with incredible variation and longevity, but I would counsel against the use of consciousness altering phrases. He was great, he was brilliant, and he was part of a large movement for social change.
I think Dylan wasn't an outlier in the strictest sense, it is rather difficult to find anyone who is. However there are people/groups, if removed from a system, change that system. And I think Dylan is one of them.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I remember that John Lennon actually had a book of poetry published - "In His Own Write". My older sister had a copy and I remember it as being absolute rubbish - although, to be fair, it must have been fairly early on (?around 1964).
.
There are bits I find oddly endearing, even if I don't mistake them for high art. E.g.
I have a little budgie
He is my very pal
I take him walks in Britain
I hope I always shall.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
it's a goody, but part of that for me was that Emmylou's voice had my testosterone doing cartwheels ... oh dear God I've never reovered
I think Emmylou was a treat in her own right, but I liked Bob's versions of the songs on Desire even without her. This live version of One More Cup of Coffee is his gritty best. Bob was always more of a live artist than a recording artist.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Just reading slightly upthread. I think Dylan was part of a movement going on in America at the time. He wasn't an outlier by any means. I think he became the most successful member of that movement, with incredible variation and longevity, but I would counsel against the use of consciousness altering phrases. He was great, he was brilliant, and he was part of a large movement for social change.
But I think this limits him in the very way he's always hated. He was at the forefront of the civil rights movement in 1963, and some of his songs became anthems for that movement. But as Joan Baez has admitted in interviews over the years, when they were an item, she wanted Bob to tour the country with her, protesting against Vietnam, championing African American rights etc. But though he probably supported those causes back then, he just wanted to get on with his music and poetry. In 1965 when it was all imploding for him, he said, tongue in cheek in an interview in England, "I just think of myself as a song and dance man." Others may have used his music for social change, but to him it was just his music, ever evolving. True artists do what they want. If other people like it so much the better. But they do it anyway. Bob is a true artist.
--------------------
Yours in Christ
Paul
Posts: 6387 | From: White Cliffs Country | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
True artists do what they want. If other people like it so much the better. But they do it anyway.
An artist is someone who creates art. End of.
Most artists, like Dylan, have interaction with other people. The nature of that interaction is variable, but the authenticity does not need to be one way. Was Michaelangelo not a "true" artist because he worked on commission?
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Just reading slightly upthread. I think Dylan was part of a movement going on in America at the time. He wasn't an outlier by any means. I think he became the most successful member of that movement, with incredible variation and longevity, but I would counsel against the use of consciousness altering phrases. He was great, he was brilliant, and he was part of a large movement for social change.
But I think this limits him in the very way he's always hated. He was at the forefront of the civil rights movement in 1963, and some of his songs became anthems for that movement. But as Joan Baez has admitted in interviews over the years, when they were an item, she wanted Bob to tour the country with her, protesting against Vietnam, championing African American rights etc. But though he probably supported those causes back then, he just wanted to get on with his music and poetry. In 1965 when it was all imploding for him, he said, tongue in cheek in an interview in England, "I just think of myself as a song and dance man." Others may have used his music for social change, but to him it was just his music, ever evolving. True artists do what they want. If other people like it so much the better. But they do it anyway. Bob is a true artist.
I was reacting to the comment to the effect that Dylan altered the consciousness of the world. Perhaps I should have just gone with "bullcrap". I don't think what you say above is bullcrap, but I don't think its captured him either. He might not have wanted to do a sit in, but he did want to write protest music for a while. He has, as I said above, incredible variation and longevity.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
In the car on the way home from work this morning, it occurred to me that the judges might have taken into account not only Dylan's work, but also misheard lyrics.
Lay lady lay
Lay across my big-arse bed.
That one is obviously a classic and must have been taken into account.
--------------------
Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
In the car on the way home from work this morning, it occurred to me that the judges might have taken into account not only Dylan's work, but also misheard lyrics.
Lay lady lay
Lay across my big-arse bed.
That one is obviously a classic and must have been taken into account.
Given he's an American, probably big-ass not big-arse.
Carry on.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
Sorry, dear boy, the lyric was misheard so would be in the spelling of the hearer.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Sorry, dear boy, the lyric was misheard so would be in the spelling of the hearer.
Does "arse" rhyme with "brass"? Or is this person truly cloth-eared?
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
It does indeed where I come from.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
I won't hear Lady Lay in the same way ever again.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Latchkey Kid
Shipmate
# 12444
|
Posted
Dylan sings (if that's the word) "br arse".
--------------------
'You must never give way for an answer. An answer is always the stretch of road that's behind you. Only a question can point the way forward.'
Mika; in Hello? Is Anybody There?, Jostein Gaardner
Posts: 2592 | From: The wizardest little town in Oz | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Does "arse" rhyme with "brass"? Or is this person truly cloth-eared?
It depends which dialect of English you are speaking. Can't speak for US dialects, but,
English RP (non rhotic) - Yes, same vowel.
Northern English (non rhotic) - No, different vowel.
Rhotic dialects of English (e.g. South West) - No, presence of 'r'.
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
Not sure how long this link will work, since it's a daily cartoon feature. A secretary at the Nobel Prize office is holding a phone, telling two men standing there, “I keep getting a recorded message that says, ‘You just kinda wasted my precious time, but don’t think twice it’s all right.’ ”
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
Just to get rid of the idea that this has anything to do with influence on popular music--if it was about that, they'd give it to the Beatles, who were far more important as composers and performers. But no one would think of even the best Beatles lyrics as literature.
I don't know Dylan, but I do recall finding the poetry segment of a colleague's course the words (okay, lyrics) of Eleanor Rigby, The Streets of London, and Bridge over Troubled Water. Each of which I find profoundly moving. And I would certainly argue that they are poetry, with or without music.
GG
--------------------
The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Eleanor Rigby was The Beatles
I don't see that GG implied otherwise; she was using it as an example to show that popular song lyrics can be treated as literature. I'd be willing to bet she realizes The Streets of London and Bridge over Troubled Water aren't Dylan either.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
"Dylan says Nobel left him 'speechless': Swedish academy". (Yahoo)
I thought he was the spokesman for a generation. How can you have a speechless spokesman?
Tom Lehrer: Speaking of love, one problem that recurs more and more frequently these days, in books and plays and movies, is the inability of people to communicate with the people they love: husbands and wives who can't communicate, children who can't communicate with their parents, and so on. And the characters in these books and plays and so on, and in real life, I might add, spend hours bemoaning the fact that they can't communicate. I feel that if a person can't communicate, the very least he can do is to shut up.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Z--
ABBA's lyrics may not be great literature, but their music always makes me happy!
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Humble Servant:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
"Dylan says Nobel left him 'speechless': Swedish academy". (Yahoo)
I thought he was the spokesman for a generation. How can you have a speechless spokesman?
To the extent that being a "spokesman" involves popping up in front of the cameras straight away in the manner that media demands, no artist is very good at it. Thank God. Their job involves letting ideas percolate.
--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
|
Posted
quote:
The entire performance felt like a fierce and instantaneous corrective to “times like these”—a reiteration of the deep, overwhelming, and practical utility of art to combat pain. In that moment, the mission of the Nobel transcended any of its individual recipients. How plainly glorious to celebrate this work.
Amanda Petruisch summarising why we BobCats are excited that a master of language has been awarded the Nobel Prize for literature. This ain't, as some have suggested, Justin Bieber or ABBA (fine entertainment though they may provide) but a troubadour who has plucked the chords of being human.
Just sayin'.
--------------------
shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
Z--
Whoa! Wow! ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
And what a great article! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
|
Posted
"Where hunger is ugly, where souls are forgotten
Where black is the colour, where none is the number
And I'll tell it and think it and speak it and breathe it
And reflect it from the mountain so all souls can see it".
Mistakes and all, Patti Smith used Bob's words to tell it all. Very, very moving.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
