|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: The "boycott, divestment, sanction" movement against Israel - is it wrong?
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
I sat with my gob open there for a moment, not smacked, but about to say something. And I couldn't. This is a first. Words fail me.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
|
Posted
quote:
But if I did accept that in this instance, I wouldn't expect what I also saw as being the outworking of those plans (the current state of Israel) to be so manifestly unjust and contrary to the ethos of the NT. (I'm no expert on the Middle East, but I find the unilateral land grabs and settlement-building unacceptable and without justification).
Well, you could argue from Matt 24 as futurists do, that a huge period of unrest will preface the second coming which will need the Jews to be in Israel. If you argue all was fulfilled in AD 70 and AD133, you still haven't seen the second coming so there is a future aspect to it all.
Regarding the so called great injustices perpetrated by the modern state of Israel, I think the argument over that is the main point of contention of this thread and that your judgement very much depends on your political sunglasses. IOW there is a lot of subjectivity involved and a huge left wing media bias against the Jewish state. Joan Peters is interesting on this. She documents the hundreds of thousands of Jewish refugees from Arab states INTO Israel because they were hounded from their homes. What would any decent state do but build settlements? Also with the blatant terrorism perpetrated wherever possible by Hamas who would not find a solution like a wall that has drastically reduced the suicide attacks.
You might also wonder why in the period from 1948 to 1967 when the so called disputed territories were in Arab hands, no Arab authority ever thought of proclaiming a Palestinian state there. Why not? Well there never was a people group that identified as Palestinian. In fact to make the numbers look better they had to redefine Palestinian as someone who had lived in the area a minimum of 2 years.
[ 18. November 2016, 23:09: Message edited by: Jamat ]
--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I sat with my gob open there for a moment, not smacked, but about to say something. And I couldn't. This is a first. Words fail me.
As Hamlet said "The rest is silence" ? Somehow, I cannot see this as true for you.
--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Aquinas and Wittgenstein reached the same conclusion. I should exalt in their company and your encapsulation of it.
Bravo Jamat, bravo.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Well, you could argue from Matt 24 as futurists do, that a huge period of unrest will preface the second coming which will need the Jews to be in Israel. If you argue all was fulfilled in AD 70 and AD133, you still haven't seen the second coming so there is a future aspect to it all.
I don't believe everything Jesus said in Mt 24 was fulfilled in the past, but there is a lot of clear blue water between that position and identifying contemporary developments in Israel as the end-time fulfilment of the rest.
All the more so in that it would appear that contemporary pro-Israel developments appear to rest at least in part on believers seeking, at best, to use unclear prophecies to inform their politics, and at worst, seeking to accomplish those prophecies through their politics.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
|
Posted
If we 'take out' for the moment the business of Christians supporting Israel because they believe the restoration to the Land is prophetically necessary AND in such a way that Christians MUST support that restoration, there are two basic problems going on here and the issue is how do we best resolve them....
On the one hand Jews appear to have sought to return to the land from the time of the invention of 'Zionism' which I understand to have been in the late Victorian era. However post 1945 this became an acute problem because Jews subjected Palestine to the kind of immigration people should mean when they talk of being swamped by foreign immigration - that is, on a scale way beyond anything Britain has suffered in the last century. And a significant number of them engaged in basically terrorism to drive out/displace both a UN mandated (British) protectorate force and Palestinian Arabs in order to set up a Jewish state.
In real terms their only justification for this was a belief in the divine promise of the Land to them - a belief that understandably the displaced Arabs don't accept. Thus by normal standards of international relations etc., this displacement of Arabs by Jews was a massive injustice....
Set against any simplistic idea of simply remedying this injustice by kicking the Jews back out is the human problem that after nearly 70 years there are vast numbers of Jewish people born in the land and knowing no other life. How can we deal with that humanely?
Again, by normal standards of international relations etc., those Jews have been around long enough to be effectively settled.
The question is how do Christians approach this? And given that many did approach it from a 'support Israel at almost any cost for prophetic reasons' stance, was that right, should we continue it or repent of it, and is there anything we can do which might bring a practical solution other than continuous war and massacre...?
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
Well, most of the denominations here are supporters of the Ecumenical Accompaniment Programme (through the World Council of Churches) which puts western Christians on the ground in the Palestinian territories to act as witnesses for, and hence protect, the civilian population. I would hope that no Christian advocates the removal of Jews from what is currently Israel as a solution to the dispute - as you suggest that would be to replace one injustice with another. At a minimum, a free and independent Palestine based on the 1967 borders is likely to be part of the solution. And, yes, there is a place for exerting political, economic and cultural pressure on the Israeli regime to force changes in how it treats non-Jews, in Israel but especially in the occupied territories.
http://eappi.org/en
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
To me the two-state solution to the problem as Steve Langton sets it out is the obvious, if not easy, one. But the "if" in his first paragraph is a huge and significant obstacle, not least in that it appears to have massive influence in the US.
--------------------
Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Yes, and where Steve Langton's views on this are more attractive than those expressed by Jamat on this issue is that they don't involve condoning any form of violence or terrorism.
The kind of Dispensationalist literalism favoured by some conservative evangelicals essentially argues when you boil it down that terrorist acts are justifiable when they are perpetrated by Jews, but not when they are perpetrated by anyone else.
It is a position that is morally compromised and untenable.
Granted, an equal and opposite stance occurs at the other end of the spectrum where a blind-eye can be turned to acts of terror committed by Hamas and other groups.
No. A binary approach is wrong from whatever direction it comes.
Some kind of two-state solution has to be the way forward, fiendishly difficult though that would be to achieve.
Some Israelis favour that too, of course.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
The guilty - the UN majority for partition PLUS the UK - must fully recognize and compensate the Palestinians regardless of their desperate terrorism. The Jews being the least guilty. Just desperate - terrorist - pawns at the time, Spartan survivors and not motivated by religion in the slightest.
As to the OP, put the money you save from that in to Palestine.
If we don't pay for Palestine, we will.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
|
Posted
by Eutychus;
quote:
To me the two-state solution to the problem as Steve Langton sets it out...
I don't think I was setting out a 'two-state solution'. If anything it is a major part of the problem that in Jewish eyes 'the Land' is effectively indivisible.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Not in all Jewish eyes, Steve Langton. There are Jewish people who agitate for a two-state solution.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
|
Posted
The move for Jewish return to the Land was always rather mixed - part religious, part secular; part warlike, part prepared to acquire land legally and so on. Trouble is there are enough who want the indivisible Land solution that even a majority of others probably can't win that one....
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
It's a vicious (or virtuous) circle I suspect, depending on one's point of view ... but yes, there are a range of motives and so on on all sides. These things are never clear-cut nor can we so easily separate the sacred from the profane ... and so on.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
|
Posted
quote:
Gamaliel: Yes, and where Steve Langton's views on this are more attractive than those expressed by Jamat on this issue is that they don't involve condoning any form of violence or terrorism.
Excuse Me? But perhaps you were just born with one foot in your mouth.
[ 21. November 2016, 19:12: Message edited by: Jamat ]
--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
by Eutychus;
quote:
To me the two-state solution to the problem as Steve Langton sets it out...
I don't think I was setting out a 'two-state solution'. If anything it is a major part of the problem that in Jewish eyes 'the Land' is effectively indivisible.
Can we please not use the word 'Jewish' as a synonym for Greater Israeli Nationalist.
--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Steve Langton:
The move for Jewish return to the Land was always rather mixed - part religious, part secular; part warlike, part prepared to acquire land legally and so on. Trouble is there are enough who want the indivisible Land solution that even a majority of others probably can't win that one....
Did even Abraham acquire the land legally? He was given it by God but did so by dispossessing those already living there, no mention of compensation.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Perhaps you'd like to explain how your belief that God somehow 'punished' Britain for its behaviour during the Mandate, presumably by allowing Jewish terrorists to murder British military personnel and civilians, doesn't involve condoning acts of violence and terrorism?
Am I missing something?
My point is that a belief in divine-sanction for Israel reclaiming the Land by force must necessitate a belief in divinely sanctioned violence - whether in 1948, 1967 or whenever else - and leads to a somewhat binary view of the world ...
Acts of violence and terrorism by Israelis = good, divinely sanctioned.
Acts of violence and terrorism by Arabs (or anyone else who isn't Israeli) = bad, not divinely sanctioned.
That's the moral dilemma that those who make a big deal about Israel and the Land and the apparent fulfilment of biblical prophecies in the contemporary Middle East have to face.
There are similar moral dilemmas facing other people on other issues, but those are the ones, I submit, that are the tricky ones for literalists and fundamentalists to deal with ...
The only way to square that particular circle, it seems to me is to recourse to facile arguments such as, 'Ah, well, it was alright in Joshua's day ...' or 'God gave them the Land, therefore they have the right to take it by force ...'
Unless you have a better explanation or can show me where I've put my foot in my mouth rather than highlighting a flaw in your argument, then that's how it seems to me.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
|
Posted
by Callan;
quote:
Can we please not use the word 'Jewish' as a synonym for Greater Israeli Nationalist.
Fair enough; I think you'll see that I did in fact modify my point in a subsequent post responding to Gamaliel, recognising that not all Jews see things quite that way. "In the eyes of many Jews..." would probably have been better.
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Steve Langton
Shipmate
# 17601
|
Posted
by Gee D;
quote:
Did even Abraham acquire the land legally? He was given it by God but did so by dispossessing those already living there, no mention of compensation.
I'm not sure that anyone back then acquired land 'legally' in any sense we would recognise. In the 'to and fro' of 'Forte Mayne' (lit., 'Strong hand') in those days God intervened to displace people who in his eyes no longer deserved to be there, and replace them by Abraham's people. And it is basically because of the long term consequences of that divine act that we now ask questions about 'legality' which back then wouldn't have meant much....
Posts: 2245 | From: Stockport UK | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
|
Posted
quote:
Gamaliel: Am I missing something?
Only a world view or two. You have obviously totally swallowed the anti Israel agenda perpetrated by the popular media.
FYI, I do not nor have ever condoned terror.
[ 21. November 2016, 22:49: Message edited by: Jamat ]
--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Gamaliel: Yes, and where Steve Langton's views on this are more attractive than those expressed by Jamat on this issue is that they don't involve condoning any form of violence or terrorism.
Excuse Me? But perhaps you were just born with one foot in your mouth.
Let me draw the boundary yet again.
An assertion that a post or posts involve condoning violence is legitimate under Commandment 3.
A suggestion that a Shipmate may have been born verbally clumsy is a general criticism of character, akin to saying "perhaps you were just born stupid". It is however perfectly legitimate to ask a Shipmate to post evidence to support any critical assertion.
Gamaliel, Jamat
Drop this whole foot in mouth thing immediately or take it to Hell.
Jamat
Final warning. You must recalibrate your understanding of the Commmandment 3 boundary.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Gamaliel: Yes, and where Steve Langton's views on this are more attractive than those expressed by Jamat on this issue is that they don't involve condoning any form of violence or terrorism.
Excuse Me? But perhaps you were just born with one foot in your mouth.
Let me draw the boundary yet again.
An assertion that a post or posts involve condoning violence is legitimate under Commandment 3.
A suggestion that a Shipmate may have been born verbally clumsy is a general criticism of character, akin to saying "perhaps you were just born stupid". It is however perfectly legitimate to ask a Shipmate to post evidence to support any critical assertion.
Gamaliel, Jamat
Drop this whole foot in mouth thing immediately or take it to Hell.
Jamat
Final warning. You must recalibrate your understanding of the Commmandment 3 boundary.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
Acknowledged. I apologise to Gamaliel here and have commented in Styx
Jamat.
[ 22. November 2016, 01:39: Message edited by: Jamat ]
--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Gamaliel: Am I missing something?
Only a world view or two. You have obviously totally swallowed the anti Israel agenda perpetrated by the popular media.
FYI, I do not nor have ever condoned terror.
By endorsing the creation of the Israeli state (as opposed to accepting its current existence) you, by definition, condone terrorism.
The popular media is virulently anti-Palestinian. This is why every act of Israeli violence is referred to as a response to something Palestinians have done. It's why the media refuses to refer to Palestine even though Palestine is recognised as a state by the UN and 2/3 of the countries on the planet. It's why the Palestinians are referred to as terrorists and the Israelis not.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
But then it is fairly easy to draw straight lines linking white people and terrorism in almost every state that they've ever settled, because the whole notion of colonialism is a terrorist enterprise - in the sense of wishing to deprive inhabitants of their freedom, enslave them, make them pay taxes, steal their land etc.
Calling Israel a terrorist state is true in that sense of meaning, but I think it makes more sense to describe it as a state that requires ongoing brutality as standard and which operates as an industrial-political-military complex.
But that in-and-of-itself is not particularly unusual, of course. Even in the region there are many brutal states - looking at you in particular Saudi - and even Israel's "moderate" neighbours in Egypt and Jordan are basically police states.
The problem in Israel/Palestine is that of conflicting religious narratives and the support/financing of positions by people with an agenda outside of the region. Those narratives so conflict that it is hard to see how they can ever be reconciled. Just take the Temple Mount/Dome of Rock issue. The one side sees the other as being an abomination. The other refuses to accept that the site has any religious affiliation for the first. And there are people who are prepared to fight for both positions. That is then an unanswerable and unsolvable problem which will only cause conflict whoever is in charge.
In terms of violence used by the various parties, these questions give conflicting and contraditory answers:
1. Is the establishment of Israel inherrently unfair and predicated on the dispossession and violence of Palestinian residents? Yes.
2. Are Palestinians justified in using extreme violence against the invaders who want to illegally steal their land? Hard to answer anything but yes.
3. If there was an established Palestinian state with deep water port, airport, contiguous borders etc, would Israeli Jews be safe? Pragmatically, it is unlikely that they'd ever be safe.
4. If Israel fully integrated the West Bank into Israel, would Palestinians ever have full citizenship rights? Highly unlikely.
5. Is Israel therefore a apartheid state? Yes, in the sense that it could never give full citizenship rights to a large percentage of people who live within the land area controlled by it.
It is a total mess. The Palestinians are better off out of there (if somehow they could be lifted elsewhere to create a fully functioning state) because although they are stubborn, they're never going to get freedom and statehood - because the thing that they want would by definition undermine/destroy the thing that Israeli Jews want.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
The only way they can be lifted out is by compensating them where they are.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The only way they can be lifted out is by compensating them where they are.
I can't see that this solves anything. A Palestinian family with financial compensation might have more shekels, but unless the roads are open, there are shops with products to buy, unless he has a passport that everyone recognises and the right of movement - he's still not much better off.
As a matter of fact, those who have financial resources in the West Bank have mostly already left.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
We can't compensate them enough to sort it out.
There are 4.5M trapped Palestinians. To induce relocation I reckon you'd have to give someone a minimum of 100k USD. (And probably would have to give much more to induce other states to accept them). That makes it 450B USD to shift them all.
I bet the world has spent a few hundred billion dollars directly on this problem and likely trillions indirectly so in a sense it might be rational. But I don't think there is half a trillion going spare.
[ 22. November 2016, 10:06: Message edited by: mdijon ]
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
For the record, I apologise if my response sounded harsh. But it's not the case that I have 'swallowed anti-Israeli propaganda.'
I am well aware of the arguments on both sides. I have also had occasion to discuss them with Jewish people who take a very different line to let me another on the issue.
I would like to think I take a balanced view what changes involves - difficult as it might be - taking a two-state solution as the ideal.
If I was anti-Israeli I would be calling for the destruction or dismantling on the Israeli state. I am not doing so nor ever have done.
But let's move on ...
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Just compensate them in situ. 3M in the West Bank per capita GDP <$2K, 2M in Gaza per capita GDP <$1K, 0.5M refuges each in Syria and Lebanon: 6M.
A thousand dollars a head annual income for a start, $6Bn a year, from those who created this mess at the UN and from the C19th.
A small step in the direction of justice. Free desalinated water from Israel would be nice.
Otherwise the ghastly past is the clue to the worse, much worse future for all concerned.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
That would be a PR disaster.
Headline news; "Your stolen life and heritage worth 1k".
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Per annum. Cash is king. I agree, it should be to $13K per capita in total for all, the world's average per capita GDP. You can enjoy your lost heritage in a bit more comfort.
Some hundred billion corporation or other needs to move to Ramallah and another to Gaza.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
Subtleties like per annum will get lost in the retweeting.
The average GDP is a very funny sum. Lots of subsistence farmers who probably don't show up in the GDP and a few incredibly wealthy kleptocrats and businessmen. It would be something like a zero-inflated negative binomial distribution where the average wouldn't be very helpful.
That sum would also imply that the main injury done to the Palestinians was loss of earnings compared with the global average. Whereas it is really more to do with loss of property and land, civil liberties and dignity. Those things are more expensive to compensate for than loss of earnings.
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
True. Not a reason not to do it. It's the start of compensation for the loss of all those things.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
True. Not a reason not to do it. It's the start of compensation for the loss of all those things.
Wrong. You said
quote:
The only way they can be lifted out is by compensating them where they are.
And now you're saying it is just a token payment which cannot actually hope to compensate them for the loss.
This is the reason why one-liners are of absolutely no help in a discussion, Martin.
They're tiresome.
Financially compensating Palestinians in the way you advocate will have almost zero impact on Palestinian lives. A large proportion of Palestinians are already living under the breadline and are reliant on hand-outs from various different groups including UNWRA (the UN Palestinian refugee agency) and without some other way to address the deadlock on issues like movement, handing out a small amount of cash will make naff all difference.
Now, unless you've actually got a point to contribute which amounts to more than typing a single line that isn't explained, why not butt out?
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
It's a large amount of cash. The initial proposal would double Gazan income. But I'll leave the brilliant solution to you and your many more words mr cheesy.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
It's a large amount of cash. The initial proposal would double Gazan income. But I'll leave the brilliant solution to you and your many more words mr cheesy.
$1,000 is not a large amount of money in the West Bank and will not solve many problems. It is worth more in Gaza but one can't eat dollars, so it makes very little difference to lives there either.
When you've spent time trying to wrestle with these issues on the ground with Palestinians, as I have, you might have more sensible and thought-out ideas on the subject.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
So tell us. What you have that's better than this.
A $1000 a year in the West Bank is a 50% increase in income. It doubles the Gaza income. Nothing can be done to stop Israeli abuse, how can we ignore them subversively in any other way apart from by continuously compensating the Palestinians?
[ 24. November 2016, 12:17: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I have told you what I think in detail.
Yes, a financial handout would increase the income of many Palestinians but it wouldn't address any of the other issues. $500 is not going to stop the destruction of water treatment works, is not going to stop a neighbouring settlement stealing water, is not going to help a farmer reach his land behind a locked gate.
Given how much control Israel has over the movement of goods inside the West Bank, an increase in income may just lead to an increase in the price of products with no overall benefit to families.
Palestinians inside the West Bank and Gaza are not in the same situation as those in Lebanon.
In Gaza in particular, trade is restricted and controlled by Israel. In the West Bank much of the trade in goods is actually by or via Israel companies.
[ 24. November 2016, 12:21: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
For example in Gaza the only power supplies are those provided by Israeli companies. If Gazans had more money, they'd likely put prices up.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
You told me what you think with nothing constructive to offer at all.
All of your criticisms of cash are 110% correct I'm sure.
What Pareto (20:80) thing can be realistically done (20) that would make the biggest difference (80) now, ignoring Israel?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
I used to think the most useful thing was to try to support the Palestinian economy by buying Palestinian goods. I now think this has very limited impact.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
What would be the best campaign? I buy the odd keffiyeh from them, that's it!
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
The internet is surprisingly fast in parts of the West Bank and even Gaza, so I think the best option available at the moment are to try to find ways to use the internet to boost the Palestinian economy and jobs that way. But to be honest, I've known people who have tried that for years and not got far.
Unfortunately there is a limit to what can usefully be done to help a community living under occupation. The one thing that would make a dramatic difference - the end of the occupation - isn't happening soon and there are few other ideas left that haven't been tried.
[ 24. November 2016, 13:30: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
Just to explain a little about the complexities:
One of the major sectors of the Palestinian economy is the export of limestone. There are several large quarries in the Hebron district.
The problem is that the products - limestone tiles marketed around the world as "Jerusalem Gold" - are almost exclusively controlled by Israeli companies, even though there are no quarries of this stone in Israel. It is almost impossible to buy the tiles direct from the Palestinian quarries for various reasons, one being that they've worked with the Israeli distributors for so long that they haven't developed the skills in dealing with international customers. Of course, there are other problems in trying to get fragile products out of the West Bank - unexpected delays, breakages at checkpoints, etc.
Another example is the Strawberry crop in Gaza. A while ago an Israeli company was the only one with the security clearance to get them out of Gaza. Palestinian farmers (IIRC with support from the EU) were looking to do this themselves and eventually got all the paperwork together. In the end "security reasons" meant that the crop was delayed and perished.
The Palestinian economy is directly tied to the Israeli economy, it isn't possible to talk about the Palestinian economy in isolation. And there is an economic interest in the Israeli companies remaining the primary source of products for Palestinians and in them remaining the only route for exports. Deliberate or not (and, let's be clear, I think it is deliberate policy), the military control of the West Bank suffocates any efforts by Palestinians to have an economic destiny outwith of the Israelis. Another example is that of solar panels in the Jordan Valley. For some reason, the IDF don't like Palestinians to have solar panels and energy independence.
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
I've used IT contractors on UpWork, but I've never come across a Palestinian.
The Occupation can't end for the foreseeable future. What can one invest in in Palestine?
The TV series 'An Honourable Woman' was brilliant transiently inspiring fiction, but there's no chance of The Gates foundation or some such setting up an IT training hub I'm sure.
So aren't we back to giving money?
Israel has just cracked desalination big time, can she be persuaded to love her enemies?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
The Occupation can't end for the foreseeable future. What can one invest in in Palestine?
The Portland Trust identified 5 sectors, of which I think IT is really the only viable one long-term.
No, trade is not the same as a cash hand-out.
[ 24. November 2016, 14:01: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
--------------------
arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Crossed in the post. So we can't ignore the bas... Israelis.
A brutally simple strategy of making the Palestinians utterly dependent on every tap they can cut off.
How long will it take for Israel to steal 'the empty land'? Never with an annual West Bank Palestinian population growth rate of 2% and a Jewish population of 17% It needs another two million Jews to become the majority.
So, there is NOTHING the world, we can do?
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Crossed in the post. So we can't ignore the bas... Israelis.
They already are sharing the "water love" big time:
From Wiki:
"Water use (in Israel) in 2009 was 1.91 billion cubic meters of which fresh water use was 1.26 billion cubic meters. Water use was 100 million cubic meters (5.2%) to Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, 1016 million cubic meters for agriculture(53.2%), 684 million cubic meters (35.8%) for domestic and public uses and 110 million cubic meters (5.7%) for industrial use.[51] According to one estimate, average domestic water consumption in Israel is 137 litres[2] per person per day on average, about half of indoor water use in the United States.[52] However, according to another estimate water use per person per year is 90 cubic meter, corresponding to 247 litres per day.[19] The latter estimate includes losses and probably also water use by offices that may not have been included in the former figures."
However, something you may not have heard is that there are terrorist set fires all over Israel ATM so they probably need quite a lot of that water.
Wiki Fires in Israel.
--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
However, something you may not have heard is that there are terrorist set fires all over Israel ATM so they probably need quite a lot of that water.
Wiki Fires in Israel.
What would be really useful is if you read the contents of the link before you posted it. Because it doesn't say what you say it says.
Now, what inference should I take from that?
--------------------
Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
