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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The "boycott, divestment, sanction" movement against Israel - is it wrong?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
5% isn't exactly big love and you can bet they're being well paid for it. Like the electricity that makes solar cells strategic weapons.
How the hell do Palestinians get to torch Haifa? Lightning, broken glass and compost - cabbage leaves, chip shop waste - can all start fires. Let alone cigarette butts. And teenagers. And Jewish arsonists and terrorists, provocateurs framing Palestinians. 8 arrests. Of whom?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
However, something you may not have heard is that there are terrorist set fires all over Israel ATM so they probably need quite a lot of that water.
Wiki Fires in Israel.
What would be really useful is if you read the contents of the link before you posted it. Because it doesn't say what you say it says.
Now, what inference should I take from that?
Fair comment. I have a source from a friend in Israel which stated that the fires were set by terror groups. It was not the wiki link, which is pretty neutral on that score. It is :
Carmel Alert
This is a website of a Christian Jewish ministry so is certainly not a neutral view.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
So a neutral link does not cite any evidence that the fires were acts of terror, although it carries the Israeli government statements implying that they were. A less neutral source apparently states that the fires were acts of terror. (I didn't bother to click through from the google search linked to but take your word for it).
Does that give you pause for thought?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
In other words, they weren't acts of terror.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Net Spinster
Shipmate
# 16058
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
In other words, they weren't acts of terror.
I suspect it means the authorities don't know, but, it is useful to have a villain at hand to blame.
Weren't the Catholics blamed for the Great Fire of London?
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spinner of webs
Posts: 1093 | From: San Francisco Bay area | Registered: Dec 2010
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
They already are sharing the "water love" big time:
Yeah, bullshit.
Israel has extracted 80% more than the Oslo allocation in the West Bank, and Oslo itself allocated 80% of the joint Palestinian-Israeli aquifer to Israel. This doesn't even include the water that is illegally stolen by settlements from Palestinian villages. In some areas the authorities illegally pump water and then sell it back to the Palestinian villages.
Water is a tremendous cause of conflict in Israel-Palestine, trying to make out that Israel is somehow a fair player in water allocations is an utter lie.
quote:
However, something you may not have heard is that there are terrorist set fires all over Israel ATM so they probably need quite a lot of that water.
Wiki Fires in Israel.
That may or may not be terrorist related (somehow I think it is pretty unlikely to be related to Palestinian terrorists in the West Bank and Gaza) but has absolutely nothing to do with the practice of using water access as a form of control in the occupied Palestinian territories.
[ 25. November 2016, 07:11: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
They already are sharing the "water love" big time:
Yeah, bullshit.
Israel has extracted 80% more than the Oslo allocation and Gaza) but has absolutely nothing to do with the practice of using water access as a form of control in the occupied Palestinian territories.
Israeli view
Depends on your sources though. Section 12 and 13 of this report make interesting reading.
[ 25. November 2016, 19:56: Message edited by: Jamat ]
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well yes, and whatever our view of the rights and wrongs, it's hardly surprising that the Palestinians might be inclined to use the water issue as a bargaining counter. The Israelis would probably do the same if the boot was on the other foot.
The tussle over water is simply one more symptom of the current messy state of affairs. That isn't to demonise the Israelis, nor to make out that all the Palestinians are whiter-than-white ... but it is to suggest that, hard as it will inevitably be, there is still a need to press for some kind of diplomatic solution and to find compromises.
Easier said than done, of course.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well yes, and whatever our view of the rights and wrongs, it's hardly surprising that the Palestinians might be inclined to use the water issue as a bargaining counter. The Israelis would probably do the same if the boot was on the other foot.
This is breathtaking provarication. The military occupying power in the area agreed to a short-term management process of the water resources and used this as a reason to take far more than it was allocated into the indefinite future.
Palestinians are not "using water as a bargaining counter", they are simply stating a fact. Palestinians number in the millions but are left without reasonable amounts of water because the military power instead diverts it to a smaller number of a first-world population to water their lawns and feed their swimming pools.
quote:
The tussle over water is simply one more symptom of the current messy state of affairs. That isn't to demonise the Israelis, nor to make out that all the Palestinians are whiter-than-white ... but it is to suggest that, hard as it will inevitably be, there is still a need to press for some kind of diplomatic solution and to find compromises.
It isn't messy, it is perfectly straightforward. It is only messy if you think a first-world population is entitled to unilaterally decide to impose water restrictions on people they've determined do not deserve it.
The Israeli military destroy sewage treatment works and restrict Palestinian water infrastructure. It can't then in all honesty complain that the Palestinian community is taking a potable water handout and only in return giving sewage.
quote:
Easier said than done, of course.
Certainly easier to state plainly ignorant things on bulletin boards than to actually take the time to understand the issues - particularly when one has a habit of deciding that sitting-on-the-fence is the answer to everything.
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arse
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The Israeli military destroy sewage treatment works and restrict Palestinian water infrastructure. It can't then in all honesty complain that the Palestinian community is taking a potable water handout and only in return giving sewage.
It reminds me of all the "can Arafat control his people?" stuff we used to hear after Oslo. The point being that there was no way on earth Arafat could control anyone when his people were being completely shafted by the worsening deal unfolding even if he had access to highly resourced security forces.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Mr cheesy, I was trying to be conciliatory and to meet Jamat part-way, based on the document he provided.
If that has annoyed you, than I apologise. I don't claim to be an expert.
If it's the case that the Israeli military are destroying sewage installations and restricting Palestinian access to water then that sucks and should be roundly condemned. I would be among the first to roundly condemn it.
The thing is, though, I've come across some daft stuff on the pro-Palestinian side. I once attended a talk where someone showed a slide of a Palestinian lad in a mask wielding a sling against an Israeli army command post. Given the distance involved - and you'd have had to be a pretty accomplished slinger to sling a stone as far as the command post was - the speaker suggested that the teenager was engaging in a piece of political 'performance art' ...
I mean, c'mon ...
One isn't prevaricating or condoning the way the Israelis conduct themselves by accepting that some Palestinians carry out acts of violence - such as slinging stones at Israeli outposts and trying to provoke some kind of reaction.
My point is that we should be trying to encourage some kind of peaceful solution rather than aively accepting the status quo in the belief that it somehow fulfils Biblical prophecy.
We don't have to demonise the Israelis to do that. Sure, we should 'call' them when they do bloody awful things to the Palestinians and not try to condone it.
If they are sabotaging water supplies and restricting access to clean water then yes, they should be condemned for that.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
But what you are consistently failing to appreciate is that this isn't a symmetrical conflict where all sides are equally to blame. This is an asymmetric occupation of a community who does not want to be occupied and where occupier does whatever it wants, divies up resources in whatever way it chooses, sets arbitary rules, enforces arbitary borders and so on.
Occupiers have moral and legal responsibility to an occupied people; occupied people have a right to attempt to overthrow a military occupation in whatever way they choose.
I condemn Palestinian violence not because it is equivalent to Israeli violence (clearly it isn't), but because it is totally counter-productive. They're fully entitled to use whatever they can to fight off the occupation, experience shows that most of the things they've tried have failed and will go on failing.
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arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not suggesting it is symmetrical. Where did you get that idea from?
But violence is violence.
If you are killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber you are just as dead as if you were shelled or bombed in Gaza by the Israeli military.
Jamat was cross and indignant when I suggested that this take on these things leads to the justification of violence.
I might make the same suggestion in your direction. Violence by the Israeli authorities is always wrong, but violence from the oppressed Palestinians isn't morally wrong, simply counter-productive ...
How does that work?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I'm not suggesting it is symmetrical. Where did you get that idea from?
But violence is violence.
If you are killed by a Palestinian suicide bomber you are just as dead as if you were shelled or bombed in Gaza by the Israeli military.
Yes. But there are many more ways to kill and make your life miserable if you are a Palestinian than if you are Israeli.
For all its faults - and there are many faults - Palestinian resistance is legitimate resistance to an occupying force.
If the Germans had reached the UK and occupied it, the British would have legtimately tried to overthrow the occupier. If the occupying force was still there 80 years later, it would still be legtimate to try to overthrow it.
quote:
Jamat was cross and indignant when I suggested that this take on these things leads to the justification of violence.
The difference is that Jamat is not trying to argue a position of reasonableness using logic, but one of religious obligation. Thus it is not possible to tilt his position arguing from the law, human rights or other shared base positions, because he/she doesn't accept that they are in any way comparable to the religious obligation.
quote:
I might make the same suggestion in your direction. Violence by the Israeli authorities is always wrong, but violence from the oppressed Palestinians isn't morally wrong, simply counter-productive ...
How does that work?
See above. If you are occupied, you are entitled to attempt to overthrow the occupier.
I'm a pacifist, I decry violence. But I absolutely do not decry the rights of an oppressed minority to attempt to overthrow an occupying power, and I certainly do not accept that any discussion of Israeli human rights abuses must always be followed by "ah, but Palestinians did x" - as if that has anything to do with it. It doesn't have anything to do with it any more than black people refusing to leave the lunch bars was somehow a balancing equivalence to Jim Crow.
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arse
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I get all of that, mr cheesy, but it can still spill over into 'I approve of this, that or the other side, so therefore I turn a blind-eye to their violence but not to the violence of the other side, because I don't approve of them ...'
I'll grant that you are on more reasonable ground than Jamat is who seems happy to play fast and loose with issues of international law and so on provided there's a proof-text he can cite that apparently undermines such a thing ...
![[Help]](graemlins/help.gif)
Which is why I was trying to point out to him that such a stance might, for instance, justify Jewish terrorist acts against British military, police and civilians during the period of the Mandate, but not Palestinian resistance to Israeli occupation.
The only difference, in his view presumably, would be that the Israelis have a divine mandate for such an occupation. Which leaves the Palestinians pretty stuffed.
The comparison with a putative Nazi invasion of the UK is not an exact one. Ok, there wasn't a UN back then but I doubt very much whether the international community at that time would have recognised a German occupation of the UK.
Whether we like it or not, some 161 out of 192 UN member states recognise Israel's right to exist.
Hence my argument that some kind of two-state solution - however difficult - must be the ideal to strive for.
What are the alternatives?
The eradication of the State of Israel after nearly 70 years?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The comparison with a putative Nazi invasion of the UK is not an exact one. Ok, there wasn't a UN back then but I doubt very much whether the international community at that time would have recognised a German occupation of the UK.
Whether we like it or not, some 161 out of 192 UN member states recognise Israel's right to exist.
The UN acknowledges the West Bank and Gaza to be occupied Palestinian land. The 1948 UN declaration on Israel was of partition, etc and so on. If in 1948 Israel was accepted by the world community, by the same token it also acknowledged the Palestinian rights to the land outside the green line (which, incidentally, includes all of Jerusalem, which has never been accepted as being Israel by the UN.)
Nothing has ever been agreed in the UN which gives Israel a right to occupy Palestinian land.
quote:
Hence my argument that some kind of two-state solution - however difficult - must be the ideal to strive for.
What are the alternatives?
The eradication of the State of Israel after nearly 70 years?
You might find it helpful to go back and read this thread as we have already covered this in great detail.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
It seems to me that both sides are using water as a weapon. "The Israeli military destroy sewage treatment works" in warfare, in 2009 & 2014, in Gaza. It was a rational military tactic, as was taking out the power station: collective punishment of the enemy community.
From the Israeli document above: "The Palestinians are avoiding treatment of wastewater and reuse of the treated effluents for irrigation, a move that would free large quantities of fresh water for domestic use, while also preventing contamination of groundwater and environmental pollution. At times, this is explained on the basis of a religious prohibition, which is puzzling as neighbouring Arab countries treat wastewater and use the effluent for irrigation of agricultural lands.
It also appears that for tactical reasons of negotiation, the Palestinians do not wish to discuss desalination as a concrete solution (for the West Bank) or regional schemes.
This Palestinian position may be summed up as follows: "Give us (Israel to the Palestinians) all the fresh water we need for the present and the future, take (Israel from the Palestinians) the wastewater that we generate, and desalinate seawater in place of the water we are taking
from you."
The above position, which has been presented in international articles and at many international forums, attests to the fact that the Palestinians have not yet internalized the idea that a win-win solution to the water scarcity in the region will necessitate an increase in the overall availability of water, conservation, increased efficiency, and substantial upgrading of the entire supply system.
The Palestinians are clearly endeavouring to arrive at solutions that will be primarily at the expense of Israel, which is suffering from severe water scarcity and is making intensive efforts to bring about efficient and responsible utilization of its scarce natural resources.".
I'd be the first to argue that Israel is using every method that a Western power can get away with in this situation and a few more besides, but the Palestinians are using the only tactics that the weak can in such a conflict, apart from terrorism (which includes the economic in about half the arson behind about half the wildfires): not looking like they are co-operating with their oppressors to their own actual immediate benefit for the sake of suffering more acutely under the oppressor, including not drilling legally AND drilling illegally and massive pollution. That is standard revolutionary warfare. Lowest level economic terrorism against your own side.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
It may not be tactics Martin, it may be they just don't have the resources to do anything else. A bit like some clocked geezer of employing the tactic of hitting the deck to avoid further constructive engagement.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It may not be tactics Martin, it may be they just don't have the resources to do anything else. A bit like some clocked geezer of employing the tactic of hitting the deck to avoid further constructive engagement.
Very good. I've been that clocked geezer.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I'd be the first to argue that Israel is using every method that a Western power can get away with in this situation and a few more besides, but the Palestinians are using the only tactics that the weak can in such a conflict, apart from terrorism (which includes the economic in about half the arson behind about half the wildfires): not looking like they are co-operating with their oppressors to their own actual immediate benefit for the sake of suffering more acutely under the oppressor, including not drilling legally AND drilling illegally and massive pollution. That is standard revolutionary warfare. Lowest level economic terrorism against your own side.
That's utter shite. Contrary to whatever bollocks you think might or might not be true from the Israeli government, it might pay you to listen a bit more to the left in Israel and what they're reporting about the fires. For example that the Palestinian Authority sent fire trucks to help with the fight in Northern Israel (receiving precious little acknowledgement for this) and that there is no evidence whatsoever that they were the cause of the fires.
I'm not sure what conspiracy theories you are into, but the reality is that Palestinians would quite like enough water to run their washing machines and would quite like to have mobile networks which are more than 2G and would quite like to be able to repave the roads. The reason that's not happening is clearly not because of "economic terrorism" but because an occupying power is in the habit of completely controlling the occupied population down to the amount of water that they consume, the kinds of cellphones they're allowed to have and determining which roads to rip up next (usually/often the ones which have recently been repaved).
There is a cause and a problem of the scarce water resources in the West Bank, and it is overwhelmingly not the occupied Palestinian community who can do almost nothing about it.
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arse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I generally believe all things are concurrently paradoxically true mr cheesy.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Mr Cheesy:The difference is that Jamat is not trying to argue a position of reasonableness using logic, but one of religious obligation. Thus it is not possible to tilt his position arguing from the law, human rights or other shared base positions, because he/she doesn't accept that they are in any way comparable to the religious obligation.
Not sure why you'd assume this. Your view seems to be totally that the poor Palestinians are under oppression. Mine is really that after 5 wars to eradicate them, the Israelis are running scared of terrorism particularly with Hamas running the left Bank. Do you consider the Water report I posted above to be Israeli propaganda? If it is even half true then there is a lemming mentality to the Arab leadership that makes them impervious to negotiation so the only answer is the wall.
Regarding the religious issue, my view is not that the Israelis have God given rights to impose whatever restrictions they like or that they are always justified in their policies that impose control. It is that though they are very much an unbelieving people as a nation, God, for his own purpose, because he has said so in scripture, is regathering them for a 'last days' sort out.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
I generally believe all things are concurrently paradoxically true mr cheesy.
I think a truer word was never writ.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Hey mr cheesy. I missed your interaction with Gamaliel. I need links to the Israeli left. Haaretz. I'll look. Look mate, we're OK. Say owt you need to back at me. I VERY much resonate with the parallel of Britain under the NAZIs. For most of my life I'd have used mustard, phosgene and anthrax on the beaches without thinking once. And this is all happening in my fine (HA!) tuning of pacifism.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Not sure why you'd assume this. Your view seems to be totally that the poor Palestinians are under oppression.
That's the view of the UN (y'know that organisation you say validates the existence of Israel as a state) and every other international body. I said it is an occupation because it is an occupation.
quote:
Mine is really that after 5 wars to eradicate them, the Israelis are running scared of terrorism particularly with Hamas running the left Bank.
Then you're not in any kind of factual universe.
quote:
Do you consider the Water report I posted above to be Israeli propaganda?
Yes. The West Bank water crisis is for Palestinians only.
quote:
If it is even half true then there is a lemming mentality to the Arab leadership that makes them impervious to negotiation so the only answer is the wall.
Yeah, whatever.
quote:
Regarding the religious issue, my view is not that the Israelis have God given rights to impose whatever restrictions they like or that they are always justified in their policies that impose control. It is that though they are very much an unbelieving people as a nation, God, for his own purpose, because he has said so in scripture, is regathering them for a 'last days' sort out.
Your position is a disgusting political view dressed up as religion which says that the usual standards of fair-play, negotiation, human rights and so on don't apply to a population that inhabits a region that figures in your end-time eschatology.
Utterly impenetrable with the simple idea that Palestinians are people too (including a fair number of Christians - although of course they don't matter do they) and that they deserve to have fruitful lives not ones crushed into the dirt by the swimming-pool-owning land stealing warrior-class settler community who unilaterally determine that they don't deserve it and their Christian lackeys who seem to be blinded to the teachings of the Christ they mouth that they believe in.
No I don't believe in your Israel government propaganda. I believe what I've seen with my own eyes.
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arse
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
I quote:
No I don't believe in your Israel government propaganda. I believe what I've seen with my own eyes.
Which is really saying you have made up your mind on this issue and that settles it. You have imbibed and accepted the version of the story that satisfies left leaning liberal propensities because of apparent or real injustices you have witnessed or Palestinian stories you have chosen to believe.
I suppose there are parts of the 'elephant' neither of us know about but I would say this, that my view as I see it does not give carte blanche to Israel at all to perpetrate injustice but certainly does see the hand of God in their establishment for his prophetic purpose. It is a bit rich to see this view as encouraging a filthy vile religious perpetration of injustice. That is a rather one-sided interpretation. I actually have Israeli acquaintances who certainly see it all with very different eyes. One family of them was evacuated this last week from Haifa.
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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Which is really saying you have made up your mind on this issue and that settles it. You have imbibed and accepted the version of the story that satisfies left leaning liberal propensities because of apparent or real injustices you have witnessed or Palestinian stories you have chosen to believe.
No it is to say that I believe what I've seen and heard together with reports from respected groups such as the World Bank, Amnesty International, B'tselem and the UN over the oppressor and their Christian lackeys who think that they're clever because they can post crap on bulletin boards.
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arse
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
Furthermore, it is entirely possible that the situation looks completely different from Haifa, given that a very large number of Israelis in the North have absolutely no interaction with the occupation other than a few years in military service.
That they have a certain view is in no sense evidence that there isn't an occupation nor that there isn't a water conflict.
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arse
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
their Christian lackeys who think that they're clever because they can post crap on bulletin boards.
This comment is not clever. Remain civil or take it to Hell.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Mine is really that after 5 wars to eradicate them, the Israelis are running scared of terrorism particularly with Hamas running the left Bank.
I will grant you 1948 and 1967. I dare say a case could be made for 1973 but I wouldn't be inclined to believe it very strongly. But 1981 and 2006? Do give over! If you are seriously trying to claim that the two invasions of Lebanon were to prevent a war of extermination, you might as well go the whole hog and chuck in the Suez crisis for good measure!
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Jamat.
How can you see the unjust hand of God in the unjust creation of the unjust state of Israel when there is a perfectly complete story which requires no unjust miracle on any faithful rational basis? What difference did the unjust hand of God make that you can see but cannot transfer? As in the timeline of this infinitesimal universe? Where would the absence of God's unjust hand have made any difference? Which unjust prophecy would have failed?
[ 29. November 2016, 11:40: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Gee D
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# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Furthermore, it is entirely possible that the situation looks completely different from Haifa, given that a very large number of Israelis in the North have absolutely no interaction with the occupation other than a few years in military service.
That they have a certain view is in no sense evidence that there isn't an occupation nor that there isn't a water conflict.
Given that there's less than 200km from Haifa to the Gaza strip, I'd imagine that there's a fair bit of interaction.
That short distance highlights the great problems in both Israel and Lebanon. We're talking here of tiny pieces of land, not very productive at the best of times, and from which quite a few people are attempting to make a living and produce sufficient food for normal requirements. Probably the population in 1914 was about the maximum which the land could support. There's been a very substantial increase since then.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Given that there's less than 200km from Haifa to the Gaza strip, I'd imagine that there's a fair bit of interaction.
There really isn't. People from Gaza can't travel to Haifa, and those from Haifa have no reason to travel to Gaza.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Given that there's less than 200km from Haifa to the Gaza strip, I'd imagine that there's a fair bit of interaction.
There really isn't. People from Gaza can't travel to Haifa, and those from Haifa have no reason to travel to Gaza.
Except that the post I was answering was not talking of the civilian population of Gaza but of Israeli military.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Except that the post I was answering was not talking of the civilian population of Gaza but of Israeli military.
The point is substantially the same. If you are a settler or live in parts of Jersualem, you see the military on the streets all the time. You can't really help but be reminded that you live in the midst of a conflict.
In Haifa and the North, particularly given that in many areas there is segregation between communities, it is perfectly possible to live quiet lives detached from what is going on in Gaza and the West Bank and only dimly aware of it via TV. Hence it is perfectly possible to live in these communities and believe that the actions of the IDF are proportional, that the Palestinians are exaggerating about human rights abuses, that the international organisations are just anti-Semitics.
If you never visit the Palestinian Authority controlled areas (which technically is illegal for Israelis under Israeli law - although the punishment is always less than being caught as a Palestinian in Israel, usually just being escourted to the nearest military police station by subservient Palestinian police), you'd never really know what was happening.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I had been working on 2 bases - the very small distances involved and the family connections (largely through compulsory military service) which many in Israel would have.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
That's more than than the distance from home to Liverpool, but I have never been to Liverpool. It's not such a short distance that you'd be there regularly, or at all, unless you had a good reason to, like I don't for Liverpool. Ullswater's further away, and I've been there, but there's a reason for it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Israel is a very compartmentalised and macho society. I've heard it said that many refuse to talk about their military service even to their own families - which isn't a great surprise when their experience of the military has amounted to pointing a large gun at a granny.
If anything, the experience of serving in the Israeli military strengthens the popular view of things, where few in military service see the realities of Palestinian life in the occupied Territories, those that do only see a tiny snapshot and there is no encouragement to see the bigger picture and the majority of people in the IDF and military police are bored teenagers pushed into doing ridiculous things.
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arse
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Maybe not you personally, but what about children? Or in the Israeli context, either your children or those of neighbours doing military service?
Mind you, I'd not call 200 km far. In the 1962 missile crisis, my mother was busy trying to work out a bolt-hole for us out of Sydney. She ruled out my uncle's property about 45 km from Canberra on the basis that that was too close.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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mr cheesy
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# 3330
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Posted
Tel Aviv feels like a million miles from the Palestinian West Bank and just down the road from the settlements.
I'm afraid pointing at the geography isn't invalidating what I'm saying: the majority of Israelis in the North are not really conscious of what is happening in the West Bank. They don't know, they don't want to know. It all feels a long way away.
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arse
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Israel is a very compartmentalised and macho society. I've heard it said that many refuse to talk about their military service even to their own families - which isn't a great surprise when their experience of the military has amounted to pointing a large gun at a granny.
If anything, the experience of serving in the Israeli military strengthens the popular view of things, where few in military service see the realities of Palestinian life in the occupied Territories, those that do only see a tiny snapshot and there is no encouragement to see the bigger picture and the majority of people in the IDF and military police are bored teenagers pushed into doing ridiculous things.
This is implying you know more about the situation than those that live there. Israel is the only genuine democratic state in that part of the world where basic freedoms and infrastructures of life are available. I know of one bloke whose son studied law but then joined the IDF and was in constant danger as part of a tank crew. His Dad went nearly spare. It seems to me your view is based on what you think you know and your strong sense of justice. I respect that view but as I said, have awareness from Israeli Christians who see things very differently. The terrorism threat is very real to them and perhaps the jury is out on the recent fires but, that many? In that short a Time? Go figure. Has to be arson.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Thanks Mr Cheesy.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
...Israeli Christians...
Not including any Palestinian Christians I presume? Depressing how the evangelical narrative provides no sympathy for them.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
...Israeli Christians...
Not including any Palestinian Christians I presume? Depressing how the evangelical narrative provides no sympathy for them.
By which I MEANT believers in the messiah who live in Israel. They could be any nationality. My contact is aNZer. Feel free to be depressed if you like. The bloke who cuts what's left of my hair is called Mo and comes from Jordan. He is a good chap and if a Christian would indeed be my brother.
Posts: 3228 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Well I doubt many Palestinian Christians feel for the IDF.
I would hope that Mo was a brother whether Christian or not. Maybe Mo is short for Moses but more likely Mohammed.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
...Israeli Christians...
Not including any Palestinian Christians I presume? Depressing how the evangelical narrative provides no sympathy for them.
By which I MEANT believers in the messiah who live in Israel.
What about the ones who live under Israeli occupation in the Occupied Territories? Do you extend to them?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
pointing a large gun at a granny.
What sort of pathetic rhetorical purpose is served by talking about "large" guns?
The real issue as regards Israel consists of rockets (any size) pointed at Jewish kids, and the growing possibility of nuclear devices (any size) being pointed at Israel's Jews in general by genocidal, anti-Semitic lunatics.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
pointing a large gun at a granny.
What sort of pathetic rhetorical purpose is served by talking about "large" guns?
The real issue as regards Israel consists of rockets (any size) pointed at Jewish kids, and the growing possibility of nuclear devices (any size) being pointed at Israel's Jews in general by genocidal, anti-Semitic lunatics.
What sort of pathetic parent-child response is served by talking about what sort of pathetic rhetorical purpose is served by talking about "large" guns? Which talk was amusing. Reminds one of Mars Attacks!
And can you quantify the growing possibility of nuclear devices (any size) being pointed at Israel's Jews in general by genocidal, anti-Semitic lunatics which doesn't endanger Israel's Arabs and other ethnic minorities?
[ 02. December 2016, 10:02: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
There is quite a difference between living under the threat of nuclear missiles and rockets from Gaza (which have very limited range and cause very little damage) and the reality of living in a full-blown military occupation.
The former group largely continue with their lives unhindered by the nukes and rockets, the latter experience midnight raids, house demolitions and yes small teenagers pointing large guns at their grannies.
There is more of an argument about fear from suicide bombers, which certainly did cause a lot of fear in Jerusalem and elsewhere. But that stopped because Palestinian militants changed tactics - and a harsh military regime has not been able to stop Palestinians getting in a position to cause mass civilian casualties. They've just largely not done that.
Unlike Israel, of course, which doesn't even apologise for killing civilians in Gaza with warplanes any more.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Are the Gazans firing smoke detectors now?
The only state using, actually detonating radiological - 'nuclear' - weapons in the region is Israel.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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