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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » The "boycott, divestment, sanction" movement against Israel - is it wrong? (Page 2)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: The "boycott, divestment, sanction" movement against Israel - is it wrong?
lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
[qb] No. That doesn't work. Israel was created by international law by the UN.

And that doesn't work because it ignores that the land was not created out of nowhere and it ignores the lying and manipulation that preceded it.
And attacks by other countries do not then excuse poor treatment of those within its stolen borders.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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So UN resolutions should be set aside? What would you have the Jewish people to do? Do you want a state along the lines of Lebanon where they divided up government along religious lines? Where do you want them to go?

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
So UN resolutions should be set aside? What would you have the Jewish people to do? Do you want a state along the lines of Lebanon where they divided up government along religious lines? Where do you want them to go?

This is the ridiculous redirect people make when confronted with Israel's bad behaviour.
Did I say the Israelis should now be disposed? No. They should stop being shitty to the other people who also live there.

[ 18. October 2016, 02:37: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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It's not a redirect. You need to say how to do this. Who and what countries and what groups should do what. It is silly to say that Israel should stop misbehaving without saying who else must stop misbehaving.
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lilBuddha
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That is bullshit. Israel needs to stop allowing settlers into other people's territory. They need to respect the people who live there. They do not. They do things that have naught to do with what other people are doing.
No one is giving a pass to acts of terroism or calls for Israel's destruction.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
if Israel starts WWIII

The ME country most likely to start WWIII is Iran.

Big country to the east of Israel - you possibly haven't heard of it, because although its human rights record is infinitely worse than Israel's, it receives only a fraction of the negative attention from trendy-lefty Westerners, because its people are not Jewish.

It is rabidly anti-Israel, and developing nuclear weapons.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
So UN resolutions should be set aside? What would you have the Jewish people to do? Do you want a state along the lines of Lebanon where they divided up government along religious lines? Where do you want them to go?

You really should read up on stuff before spouting here. There have been numerous UN resolutions about Israeli encroachment into Palestinian land, and the original UN plan was one of partition, with Israel getting about 50% of the land.

As it stands, Israel has encroached massively into the Palestinian territories, illegally.

So if you are calling for respect of Israeli as per UN resolutions, you are actually calling for them to return to the 1967 borders and withdraw their blockade of the Palestinian territories.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The ME country most likely to start WWIII is Iran.

Big country to the east of Israel - you possibly haven't heard of it, because although its human rights record is infinitely worse than Israel's, it receives only a fraction of the negative attention from trendy-lefty Westerners, because its people are not Jewish.

It is rabidly anti-Israel, and developing nuclear weapons.

Israel not only has nuclear weapons already, it also has a habit of stealing land from neighbours and engaging in ongoing military skirmishes with them.

I can't see them starting WW3, because they are so small that a nuke strike on one of their neighbours is likely to completely destroy them as well.

But I think the total intransigence by several nuclear (and near nuclear) powers in the region makes conflict near inevitable, unfortunately.

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arse

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
if Israel starts WWIII

The ME country most likely to start WWIII is Iran.

Big country to the east of Israel - you possibly haven't heard of it, because although its human rights record is infinitely worse than Israel's, it receives only a fraction of the negative attention from trendy-lefty Westerners, because its people are not Jewish.

It is rabidly anti-Israel, and developing nuclear weapons.

What a pathetic caricature. I expect better of you. Oh no, sorry, you're not Callan. Iran's history - do you know ANYTHING about that? - makes her vastly sympathetic. I'd recommend Shah of Shahs for a start by Ryszard Kapuściński. Ohhhhhh, sorry, he was a communist and therefore invalid.

Iran has no nukes and has a vast Sunni empire on all sides apart from a sea corridor to Russia (yeah, yeah, Armenia and E. Iraq, great buffers). Which is why she thinks she needs nukes, as well as offsetting Israel's 70 year programme yield of 400, 80 - fissile - on standby. Fusion bombs are easily in Israel's capability.

Israel has NOTHING to fear from anyone. Apart from the people she has displaced from the lie of 'the empty land'.

There is no scenario in a hundred years which Israel can be breached, so we're all fine ...

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The ME country most likely to start WWIII is Iran.

Big country to the east of Israel - you possibly haven't heard of it, because although its human rights record is infinitely worse than Israel's, it receives only a fraction of the negative attention from trendy-lefty Westerners, because its people are not Jewish.

It is rabidly anti-Israel, and developing nuclear weapons.

Israel not only has nuclear weapons already, it also has a habit of stealing land from neighbours and engaging in ongoing military skirmishes with them.

I can't see them starting WW3, because they are so small that a nuke strike on one of their neighbours is likely to completely destroy them as well.
...

Callan. Air bursts. No collateral. Even in your own back yard. Gaza. West Bank. Further, ground zero baby. Especially on ALL the oil fields, refineries and ports.

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Callan. Air bursts. No collateral. Even in your own back yard. Gaza. West Bank. Further, ground zero baby. Especially on ALL the oil fields, refineries and ports.

You might want to calm down and address the people you're quoting rather than the imaginary posts that only exist in your mind.

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arse

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Arethosemyfeet
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
So UN resolutions should be set aside? What would you have the Jewish people to do? Do you want a state along the lines of Lebanon where they divided up government along religious lines? Where do you want them to go?

The Lebanon solution is better than some. I think there are two real choices. One is to facilitate Palestinian independence in the West Bank and Gaza based on the 1967 borders. The second is to go the whole hog and absorb the territories, creating a single pluralist state and granting citizenship to all Palestinians and allowing a right of return equally to Palestinians and Jews on the same basis, with constitutional protections in place to protect the rights of both. Either way, the theft of land via settlement construction since 1967 has to stop and be reversed.
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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
The ME country most likely to start WWIII is Iran.

Big country to the east of Israel - you possibly haven't heard of it, because although its human rights record is infinitely worse than Israel's, it receives only a fraction of the negative attention from trendy-lefty Westerners, because its people are not Jewish.

It is rabidly anti-Israel, and developing nuclear weapons.

Israel not only has nuclear weapons already, it also has a habit of stealing land from neighbours and engaging in ongoing military skirmishes with them.

I can't see them starting WW3, because they are so small that a nuke strike on one of their neighbours is likely to completely destroy them as well.
...

Callan. Air bursts. No collateral. Even in your own back yard. Gaza. West Bank. Further, ground zero baby. Especially on ALL the oil fields, refineries and ports.
You called?

The government of Israel is right wing and nationalistic. Bad as this undoubtedly is it does not completely align, in policy terms, with clinically insane. Using nukes as anything other than an option of last resort would make Israel into a pariah state and, unless the International Jewish Conspiracy now controls the weather and I missed the memorandum*, there is also the possibility for radioactive debris to be blown back over Israel's borders. Israel's current policy objectives are a) squish the Palestinians, b) give anyone who threatens or harms Israel a bloody nose and c) stop Iran from challenging Israel's monopoly of nukes in the region. Israel's diplomacy and conventional capacity are more than capable of meeting those challenges without inflicting radiation poisioning on their own citizens or making the US government rethink its alliances in the Middle East.

*In which case, good work on the autumn we're having here guys!

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Martin60
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Senility breaks. Sorry mr cheesy, Callan.

Indeed Callan, you would never have made the mistake that Israel, even nuking her own back yard, would experience literal fallout.

Even on the oil fields, refineries and ports you'd want air bursts, far more effective.

You'd reserve your last nuke for a ground burst on the Cube of course.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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Oh bugger! You DID make that mistake! Agreed on policy, we're only talking penny dreadful scenarios.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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And she's had thermonuclear capability for 30 years at least. And you would if you could. Far more bang for your buck.

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Love wins

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Callan
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Airbursts create less fall out. They do not create no fall out at all.

AIUI when nuclear weapons are used it is "better" to have an airburst rather than have them explode on the ground because they are more destructive. A bomb that explodes on the ground generates more fall out (by chucking radioactive debris into the atmosphere), but mostly creates a big crater. With an airburst the explosion distributes the destructive power of the nuke more widely, thus causing more damage. So, if you arrange for a nuke of sufficient capacity to hit Gaza City you will vapourise some of it and set fire to a lot more. The fire will generate radioactive ash which will be borne on the wind in a random direction...

So, a somewhat less likely scenario than Exeter City winning the FA Cup this season, really.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Alan Cresswell

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[technical aside]
There are three sources of radioactive materials from a nuclear bomb:

1. Fissile material (uranium or plutonium) that has not undergone fission. Long lived, alpha emitters but of low specific activity.

2. Fission products. Short to medium half lives, predominantly short (a few days or less), emitting betas and gammas, high specific activity.

3. Activation products, produced from interactions between the neutrons produced in the explosion and other material.

For any given bomb, the amount of fissile material and fission products will be independent of where the bomb is detonated. An airblast will distribute them over a much larger area, and hence the concentration on any particular part of the ground will be lower.

However, activation products will be dependent upon the location of the explosion. Interactions between neutrons and the air will predominantly produce 16N and 41Ar (both very short lived, and hence will very rapidly decay), and a small amount of 14C and tritium (in humid air). Interactions in ground materials will be much more complex (because there's a more complex mix of nuclei to interact with), and likely to produce 60Co, 14C, tritium and other longer lived radioisotopes. Although, activation products will still be a small fraction of the total radioactivity produced by the blast, a ground explosion will generate a greater proportion of longer lived radioisotopes through this route that may persist in the environment far longer than most of the fission products.

[/technical aside]

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:

Israel has NOTHING to fear from anyone. Apart from the people she has displaced from the lie of 'the empty land'.

Oh Pleeeze!...
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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Did I say the Israelis should now be disposed? No. They should stop being shitty to the other people who also live there. [/QB]

Sort of like not be a pluralistic free democracy who provides an oasis of sane government, safety and infrastructure in a wilderness of Islamic fundamentalist insanity?..to All racial groups?

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Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Martin60
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You're welcome.

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Love wins

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Settlements, Jamat. It always comes down to the settlements. Building your houses in other people's countries without their say-so and then excluding them from the areas you've nicked never goes down well.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Bee Quin
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Hi, I'm new here, so I thought I'd jump straight into a nice uncontroversial topic... I have just come back from a couple of weeks in Israel and Jordan and found this topic to be interesting (well, apart from the technical aspects of nuclear bombs...)!

I went out there full of thinking about the 2 state solution being the only hope, but my time out there has changed my mind. This was particularly true when I visited Hebron. I went on a tour that was led by a Palestinian in the morning and an Israeli in the afternoon. I won't call the latter a settler, as I did before the tour, as I discovered that there has been a Jewish community in Hebron for centuries until they were violently expelled during the 1929 Arab Revolt, returning after the 6 day war. Whilst both guides and the people they took us to visit had strongly different perspectives, they both agreed that before the Oslo Accords that led to the separation of the city and large parts of the country, the people lived in proximity to eachother and there was a certain level of understanding. Now, they are separated behind barriers, and the sense of 'otherness' and lack of understanding of the other point of view is growing. Both sides said they need a single state for real peace.

Interestingly, the Palestinians that I spoke to almost unanimously agreed that with the Palestinian Authority the way it is, there is no hope as it is so corrupt. The general view was there is no point in even starting talks until a revolution to remove the PA!

The Israeli perspective is that they are not settlers - it is historically their land. There are different levels of this. Some would love the Palestinians to become Israelis and live together with them. Many spoke of the success of plenty of Israeli Arabs including Supreme Court Judge Salim Joubran, when arguing that apartheid is a fiction. They say that Palestinian Arabs are being held back by the Palestinian Authority whilst Israeli Arabs have a far better lifestyle. It hurts these Israelis that they used to have friends in and be able to visit places such as Jericho, but are now faced with signs saying

"The entrance for Israeli citizens is forbidden, dangerous to your lives and is against the Israeli law."

Others however believe with the more extreme suggestion made earlier that Jordan should be the Palestinian homeland, as they identify as Arabs rather than with lines drawn on a map, and the land of Israel should be a Jewish state, with more and more settlements being built across the country in an attempt to provocatively assert their authority.

All I really know is that the walls don't help anyone. Driving through the West Bank seeing a mother and young son standing at a bus stop having to be protected by a woman with an M16 and a man with a grenade launcher really hurt, but so did being held at an Israeli checkpoint for 3 hours near Bethlehem. Palestinian corruption and Israeli intransigence and aggressiveness mean that there won't be a solution for many years. And yet I saw Muslims and Jews living peacefully alongside eachother in Jerusalem, Haifa, Akko and other places. The people can live together. It is the politicians and religious leaders that have so much to answer for! An example is the highly provocative recent UNESCO vote that decided to only call the Temple Mount by it's Muslim name, thus symbolically denying it's Jewish history - peace talks between Arafat and Ehud Barak broke down over this very point years ago when Arafat demanded that Jews admit that they had no historic links with that site!

There is so much potential in that land, but the vested interests in the status quo are an almost insurmountable block. But Jews and Muslims can and do live together and that gives me some hope. I'll just keep praying!

Apologies for the essay!

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mr cheesy
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Whilst it is absolutely true that the Jews of Hebron suffered a pogrom in 1929, it is also true that some Arab families sheltered and saved some of the Jews - and that in general Arab residents of Hebron would welcome the Jewish families back that left in the 1920s.

What they don't accept is the imposed, alien and illegal Jewish settlers in the centre of Hebron who have no historic connection to the place and who have literally forced families out of the houses they've been living in for many generations and many hundreds of years.

And to say that they are not settlers is utter drivel. They're the very worst, nastiest, most hardline, often criminal settlers in the whole of the West Bank.

And this type of comparison is why I despair of people who go on "fact-finding" tours of Hebron. Whilst the 1929 pogrom is absolutely a fact, that has zero to do with completely different, usually North American, Jewish settlers invading and imposing restrictions on people walking down particular roads because they happen to be Arab.

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arse

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Arethosemyfeet
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The corruption of Fatah is, of course, what helped Hamas get elected in the first place.
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mr cheesy
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And you'd be hard-pressed to find a Palestinian who doesn't think the Palestinian Authority is complete crap.

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arse

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Bee Quin
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I'm not saying that they're not settlers - I am saying that they passionately believe that they're not settlers, and no-one will convince them otherwise. Working to break down the barriers between the two communities towards a single state solution is in my opinion the way to go forward, as telling either side that they don't belong in certain areas just generates more hatred. The Jewish only road in old Hebron is absolutely ridiculous and again highly provocative.

[ 18. October 2016, 18:17: Message edited by: Bee Quin ]

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Bee Quin: Thank-you for your "essay". Thoughtful and is making me think.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Iran's history makes her vastly sympathetic.

If publicly describing Jews as vermin and calling for the destruction of Israel is your idea of sympathy, it would be fascinating to know what you would view as antipathy.

Tough love, obviously.

quote:
Iran has no nukes
Not yet.

quote:
Israel has NOTHING to fear from anyone.
Phew, that's a relief.

All that anti-Israel rhetoric and terrorism was clearly invented and disseminated by another one of those fiendish plots on the part of international Jewry.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was right after all.

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Arethosemyfeet
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Oh, FFS. Put the straw back in the barn where it belongs.
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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Iran's history makes her vastly sympathetic.

If publicly describing Jews as vermin and calling for the destruction of Israel is your idea of sympathy, it would be fascinating to know what you would view as antipathy.

Tough love, obviously.

quote:
Iran has no nukes
Not yet.

quote:
Israel has NOTHING to fear from anyone.
Phew, that's a relief.

All that anti-Israel rhetoric and terrorism was clearly invented and disseminated by another one of those fiendish plots on the part of international Jewry.

The Protocols of the Elders of Zion was right after all.

As I said, you obviously know nothing, less than absolutely nothing at all in fact about the history of Iran. The happy generation of 10,000 days of Israel's creation - primus inter pares at least, with the US & UK - and sustaining of the King of Kings with the angelic Savak that made Iran a paradise ... for Israel. Cold war collateral I'm sure.

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Love wins

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Oh, FFS. Put the straw back in the barn where it belongs.

The straw soldiers always march when anyone dares to criticise Israel. They are the only army the fauxrighteous have.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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Anyone capable of asserting with a straight face that Israel doesn't face any threats has got straws in their hair.
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Alan Cresswell

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# 31

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Of course, there are threats from militants within the occupied territories. Probably the most significant being attacks on settlers or soldiers in the territories, and rockets fired into Israel. Though, to a large extent, this is a threat of Israel's own making, a direct consequence of the policy of settlement and impoverishment of Palestinians. That is a threat that nuclear weapons, or advanced conventional military, is unable to counter.

But, beyond that, what threat faces Israel? Jordan and Egypt are at peace with Israel, and gain nothing from a conflict. Lebanon is recovering from a mess they were left in with their civil war, and as for Syria ... well, if there is any state that can be called Syria at the moment it's no threat to anyone. And, we've run out of neighbours to threaten Israel.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31972 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
Of course, there are threats from militants within the occupied territories. Probably the most significant being attacks on settlers or soldiers in the territories, and rockets fired into Israel. Though, to a large extent, this is a threat of Israel's own making, a direct consequence of the policy of settlement and impoverishment of Palestinians. That is a threat that nuclear weapons, or advanced conventional military, is unable to counter.

But, beyond that, what threat faces Israel? Jordan and Egypt are at peace with Israel, and gain nothing from a conflict. Lebanon is recovering from a mess they were left in with their civil war, and as for Syria ... well, if there is any state that can be called Syria at the moment it's no threat to anyone. And, we've run out of neighbours to threaten Israel.

The whole Middle East has ALWAYS regarded Israel as a carbuncle on its ass. The only thing different is they are not currently in a position to action their loathing.
Islam is a false religion if Israel continues to exist.
"In that day Allah will give the trees a voice 'O Abdulla, O servant of Allah, there is a Jew hiding behind me. Come and kill him' "
The fact that they failed in all the wars since 1948 shows that there is a supernatural hand at work.

[ 20. October 2016, 00:07: Message edited by: Jamat ]

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

The fact that they failed in all the wars since 1948 shows that there is a supernatural hand at work.

[Killing me]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

The fact that they failed in all the wars since 1948 shows that there is a supernatural hand at work.

[Killing me]
Can' t tell you how sad that makes me.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

The fact that they failed in all the wars since 1948 shows that there is a supernatural hand at work.

[Killing me]
Can' t tell you how sad that makes me.
It isn't laughing at your Christianity, but at the ridiculousness of your claim.
Israel is safe because of massive support from America.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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It's reminiscent of the end of the film Zulu.
quote:
Sgt. Bourne: Sir, sentries report the Zulus have gone. All of them! It's a miracle.
Lt. Chard: If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer-Henry point-four-five caliber miracle.
Sgt. Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind it.

Just replace "Boxer-Henry point-four-five caliber" with "US supplied military technology". Plus, military commanders with a very good grasp of tactics and strategy.

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Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

The fact that they failed in all the wars since 1948 shows that there is a supernatural hand at work.

[Killing me]
Can' t tell you how sad that makes me.
Can you imagine how sad it makes me that you seem to think God smiles on people taking other people's countries away from them and settling in them?

Address that injustice, and (a) you'll resolve a lot of issues and (b) Israel might start earning my sympathy.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Fr Weber
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# 13472

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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
The state of Israel doesn't hide the fact that it has, for a long time, occupied territory that is rightfully part of other nations. That is not right. Control of the Golan Heights has been returned to Syria, southern Lebanon to Lebanon, Sinai to Egypt. But, that still leaves the West Bank (part of the original Palestinian mandate, briefly controlled by Jordan) and Gaza.

And who annexed the West Bank and Gaza Strip following the 1948 War? Who attacked Israel the morning after it declared its independence?

The situation has cooled down markedly over the past 30 or so years. But it wasn't all that long ago that the state of Israel was surrounded by other states that wanted to wipe it off the map.

None of which means Israel shouldn't be criticized. But the situation is much more complicated than "mean Israel, poor Arabs."

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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."

--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM

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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
And who annexed the West Bank and Gaza Strip following the 1948 War? Who attacked Israel the morning after it declared its independence?

The situation has cooled down markedly over the past 30 or so years. But it wasn't all that long ago that the state of Israel was surrounded by other states that wanted to wipe it off the map.

None of which means Israel shouldn't be criticized. But the situation is much more complicated than "mean Israel, poor Arabs."

And this just shows another way that the issues are discounted. First they try to argue that 1000 year old land claims are perfectly legitimate. Next they try to say that the Palestinians are not a nation of people and so can talk a load of crap about "the Arabs".

Try going to any of these countries and you'll see that Palestinians are a distinct group from Syrians, Lebanese and Iraqis. Even those are more close to them than Egyptians or Iranians.

Lots of Palestinians live in Jordan, but the Palestinians as a group are not even Jordanians.

And as time has almost entirely separated Gazans from the Palestinians of the West Bank, never mind the Israeli Arabs of the Galilee and the stateless inhabitants of Jerusalem, these groups are steadily growing apart as well.

The equivalent insanity of labelling them all "arabs" is like suggesting that all Europeans are interchangeable and that the Irish are so similar to the British that they're the same. They're not the same.

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arse

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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This happens all the time. All North American Indians are just Indians. Which leads me to...

Could we see a Palestinian nation that isn't a country? Not all nations are countries. Like all of the First Nations* have government and control somewhere between city/province(state) for their Reserve** lands and services to their people depending on situation. The Palestinians being fully independent along the lines of a country is probably not feasible because of terrorism, unacceptability to Israel for security reasons. They might get there in the future. -- though wasn't the Palestinian Authority the failed attempt at this? Mightn't another go be in order. Because just declaring a country for Palestinians isn't going to be a starting point.

*indigenous peoples in Canada

**"Reserve" is the Canadian term, "reservation" is the American term. Reserves are the product of treaties, government to government in Canada. They are not the same as reservations in the USA, AFAIK

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Arethosemyfeet
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Why isn't a sovereign state of Palestine a starting point? Reservations were a travesty of justice when perpetrated on the First Nations of North America, just as the Bantustans were on the native population of South Africa.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:

Could we see a Palestinian nation that isn't a country? Not all nations are countries. Like all of the First Nations* have government and control somewhere between city/province(state) for their Reserve** lands and services to their people depending on situation. The Palestinians being fully independent along the lines of a country is probably not feasible because of terrorism, unacceptability to Israel for security reasons. They might get there in the future. -- though wasn't the Palestinian Authority the failed attempt at this? Mightn't another go be in order. Because just declaring a country for Palestinians isn't going to be a starting point.


I don't know about Indigenous reserves or reservations, so I can't compare them.

But the Palestinian Authority is a political organisation of Palestinians living under occupation. Individual Palestinians may be subject to restrictions by PA security forces, but are far more likely to be subject to restrictions by Israeli occupation forces, and the only authority that the PA has is that which is granted by the Israeli occupying force.

To give some examples: a large amount of the time, it is extremely difficult for a Palestinian to drive between Hebron and the Bethlehem conurbation. Without getting too complicated, there are parts of Hebron which are under PA control (Area A or B), and the whole of Bethlehem has this designation.

However, to get out of the one place one has to pass an Israeli army checkpoint, to get into the other place one often has to pass a checkpoint and there are other checkpoints along the way. At any of these checkpoints Palestinians have to show the appropriate documents and may have to wait long periods for no apparent reason. In their own land.

And that's not just between West Bank towns; very often Palestinians are prevented from leaving their own villages and some farmers can't even access their own agricultural land.

That's deep within the West Bank, nowhere near the 1967 border.

The idea that the PA retains any kind of authority over Areas A or B is a total fantasy. They can only do what the occupier allows them to do, and they're frequently prevented from even doing that for no-apparent-reason.

--------------------
arse

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
rockets fired into Israel.

If people were trying to blow up our kids by shooting rockets at their schools, we would surely just get over it and move on.

But those bloody Jews are so notoriously touchy!

quote:
But, beyond that, what threat faces Israel?
Sure, Iran's leadership has expressed approval of obliterating Israel. and is developing nuclear weapons, but Iran is not literally a neighbour, being separated from Israel by a few countries, so once again we have those Jews overreacting.
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mr cheesy
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# 3330

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
If people were trying to blow up our kids by shooting rockets at their schools, we would surely just get over it and move on.

But those bloody Jews are so notoriously touchy!

Please show me the occasion when bombs went off in London that we punished and imprisoned millions of people who had nothing to do with it.

You can't. It's bullshit.

By the same logic the Palestinians are perfectly justified in killing as many Jews as they can due to the asymmetrical war which pits a nuclear power against a few militants with peashooters and the overwhelming losses that the Palestinians have taken in this conflict compared to the Israelis.

Get a grip.

quote:
Sure, Iran's leadership has expressed approval of obliterating Israel. and is developing nuclear weapons, but Iran is not literally a neighbour, being separated from Israel by a few countries, so once again we have those Jews overreacting.
Iran and Israel are sabre rattling. But this has bog all to do with the Palestinian issue.

And Israel and Iran could hardly trade any serious nuclear weaponry without destroying themselves anyway.

--------------------
arse

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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Sure, Iran's leadership has expressed approval of obliterating Israel. and is developing nuclear weapons, but Iran is not literally a neighbour, being separated from Israel by a few countries, so once again we have those Jews overreacting.

As I recall it was a former President of Iran, who is no longer in office, and the translation of the remarks was hotly disputed at the time.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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Cheesy, you're clearly forgetting how we responded to the Easter Uprising by occupying the Irish Free State, and then during the Troubles started creating settlements in the Republic of Ireland (remember, at the time the Republic had the stated intention of governing the entire island of Ireland) and setting up checkpoints throughout the Republic. And you must surely remember how hard it was for ordinary Irish citizens to move around in the Republic, and even harder for them to enter the UK, with all those waits at Pembroke and Fishguard. Because you could never be too careful, and some Irish citizens were terrorists, so they all had to suffer because security you know.

But it's fair enough you forgot, because of course we didn't.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17450 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
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# 11621

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quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Why isn't a sovereign state of Palestine a starting point? Reservations were a travesty of justice when perpetrated on the First Nations of North America, just as the Bantustans were on the native population of South Africa.

Joan Peters' book "From Time Immemorial" carries the central thesis, never disproved that 'Palestians ' were 19 century immigrants from mainly the North and we're both Jew and Arab. The Palestinian brigade in the war were Jewish. The Palestinian Post was a Jewish newspaper. Mr Cheesy's version of history is the bullshit here. The founder of the PLO Ahmad Al Shaqueiri actually told the UN at one point that the 'Palestinians' were Jews only to change his mind a couple of years later and claim the tile Palestinian for Arabs. IMV there ARE no occupied territories. After 3 wars of aggression the Israelis would be insane to give up the Golan and create a platform from which they could have more bombs lobbed at them. The PA is fucking Hamas terrorist pricks who regularly use their own people as human shields. If I was Netanyahu I'd be building a wall too. Joel 3 settles the ownership of the land by the way. God clearly says that HE owns it.
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