homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | Register | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » The "boycott, divestment, sanction" movement against Israel - is it wrong? (Page 3)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ...  11  12  13 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: The "boycott, divestment, sanction" movement against Israel - is it wrong?
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Karl, I was contemplating the irony of what I'd written given that various conflicts we - the UK, USA, Australia and allies - have been involved in over the last 20 years were claimed to be a response to attacks by other people in a different place.

But to some extent this is what is happening in Israel/Palestine. Israel is the quintessential colonial project, overtly supported by the USA and given a lot of existential credibility by the Russians, Europeans and others.

Whereas we tend to fight our wars and demonise people at arms length, the Israelis are enacting the same policies half an hour drive down the road.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 9834 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

 - Posted      Profile for Jamat   Author's homepage   Email Jamat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Why isn't a sovereign state of Palestine a starting point? Reservations were a travesty of justice when perpetrated on the First Nations of North America, just as the Bantustans were on the native population of South Africa.

Joan Peters' book "From Time Immemorial" carries the central thesis, never disproved that 'Palestians ' were 19 century immigrants from mainly the North and were both Jew and Arab. The Palestinian brigade in the war were Jewish. The Palestinian Post was a Jewish newspaper. There was a Jewish 'Palestinian' symphony orchestra. Mr Cheesy's version of history is the bullshit here. The founder of the PLO Ahmad Al Shaqueiri actually told the UN at one point that the 'Palestinians' were Jews only to change his mind a couple of years later and claim the tile Palestinian for Arabs. IMV there ARE no occupied territories. After 3 wars of aggression the Israelis would be insane to give up the Golan and create a platform from which they could have more bombs lobbed at them. The PA is just Hamas terrorists who regularly use their own people as human shields. If I was Netanyahu I'd be building a wall too. Joel 3 settles the ownership of the land by the way. God clearly says that HE owns it.


[ 21. October 2016, 08:58: Message edited by: Jamat ]

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

Posts: 2967 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Joan Peters book was boringly debunked and taken apart about two decades ago. Almost nobody seriously considers that to be an authority worth quoting today.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 9834 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And, perhaps more pressingly, a Theology of the Land is a disgusting travesty of the gospel. Using some old book as a justification for taking land that someone else has owned for a thousand years is beneath you, Jamat.

Meanwhile, I'm guessing you're not about to give up your house to the ancestral owners of the land you live on despite your town only existing for a few hundred years. Funny that.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 9834 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76

 - Posted      Profile for Karl: Liberal Backslider   Author's homepage   Email Karl: Liberal Backslider   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Jamat's last sentence chills me. "I can chuck you off your land, bulldoze your house, tear up your olive groves, because bugger justice, God says I can have your property."

--------------------
Might as well ask the bloody cat.

Posts: 17450 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Jesus' kingdom was a spiritual one, except in a small patch of the Middle East where it is a temporal and land-based kingdom.

It's enough to put me off religion altogether.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 9834 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Why isn't a sovereign state of Palestine a starting point? Reservations were a travesty of justice when perpetrated on the First Nations of North America, just as the Bantustans were on the native population of South Africa.

Joan Peters' book "From Time Immemorial" carries the central thesis, never disproved that 'Palestians ' were 19 century immigrants from mainly the North and we're both Jew and Arab. The Palestinian brigade in the war were Jewish. The Palestinian Post was a Jewish newspaper. Mr Cheesy's version of history is the bullshit here. The founder of the PLO Ahmad Al Shaqueiri actually told the UN at one point that the 'Palestinians' were Jews only to change his mind a couple of years later and claim the tile Palestinian for Arabs. IMV there ARE no occupied territories. After 3 wars of aggression the Israelis would be insane to give up the Golan and create a platform from which they could have more bombs lobbed at them. The PA is fucking Hamas terrorist pricks who regularly use their own people as human shields. If I was Netanyahu I'd be building a wall too. Joel 3 settles the ownership of the land by the way. God clearly says that HE owns it.
Let's just swap Jew for Arab in an alternative history.

Who'd be right Jamat?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16633 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

The fact that they failed in all the wars since 1948 shows that there is a supernatural hand at work.

[Killing me]
Can' t tell you how sad that makes me.
It isn't laughing at your Christianity, but at the ridiculousness of your claim.
Israel is safe because of massive support from America.

quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It's reminiscent of the end of the film Zulu.
quote:
Sgt. Bourne: Sir, sentries report the Zulus have gone. All of them! It's a miracle.
Lt. Chard: If it's a miracle, Colour Sergeant, it's a short chamber Boxer-Henry point-four-five caliber miracle.
Sgt. Bourne: And a bayonet, sir, with some guts behind it.

Just replace "Boxer-Henry point-four-five caliber" with "US supplied military technology". Plus, military commanders with a very good grasp of tactics and strategy.
Yes BUT lilBuddha, Alan, that's HOW God did it. Like how the Naiads make streams work with fluid dynamics.

There's NONE so BLIND as THEM that CANNOT see!!!! !

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16633 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Why isn't a sovereign state of Palestine a starting point? Reservations were a travesty of justice when perpetrated on the First Nations of North America, just as the Bantustans were on the native population of South Africa.

It's not a starting point to have a Palestinian country because it isn't safe for Israel. It hasn't been safe since 1948. Still isn't. It might be in the future. But no, it is not a starting point.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10847 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349

 - Posted      Profile for Anglican_Brat   Email Anglican_Brat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:

How is it that Jordan isn't considered the Palestinian state, and that is the basis of 2 state solution: Israel and Jordan? No doubt there are some reasons for this, but are they good ones? [/QB]

If someone turfed you off your land, and told you, "You can't go back to your home, even though your family have lived there for multiple generations" and then gleefully told you "But you can go to another land, right next door, and that's your new home." How would you feel?

My point is, that Palestinians have a right to historic Palestine based on their centuries-long history and settlement there. That right should be the starting point for negotiations of peace and justice.

[ 21. October 2016, 18:30: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

--------------------
It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

Posts: 4230 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:

quote:
Cheesy, you're clearly forgetting how we responded to the Easter Uprising by occupying the Irish Free State,
Um, I think you'll find that we were already occupying the Island of Ireland at that point and had been doing so since the reign of the first Plantagenet King. Which was, rather, the entire point of the Easter Rising. Incidentally two million people died as a result of the Irish potato famine and another million were displaced. British people really have no business lecturing Israelis about how they treat their neighbours based on their own conduct in Ireland. It's like Donald Trump complaining Bill Clinton is an adulterer.

Originally posted by Jamat:

quote:
oan Peters' book "From Time Immemorial" carries the central thesis, never disproved that 'Palestians ' were 19 century immigrants from mainly the North and were both Jew and Arab. The Palestinian brigade in the war were Jewish. The Palestinian Post was a Jewish newspaper. There was a Jewish 'Palestinian' symphony orchestra. Mr Cheesy's version of history is the bullshit here. The founder of the PLO Ahmad Al Shaqueiri actually told the UN at one point that the 'Palestinians' were Jews only to change his mind a couple of years later and claim the tile Palestinian for Arabs. IMV there ARE no occupied territories. After 3 wars of aggression the Israelis would be insane to give up the Golan and create a platform from which they could have more bombs lobbed at them. The PA is just Hamas terrorists who regularly use their own people as human shields. If I was Netanyahu I'd be building a wall too. Joel 3 settles the ownership of the land by the way. God clearly says that HE owns it.
M8, you're not helping. There's a case to be made for Israel as a Jewish state but this ain't it.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9677 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Why isn't a sovereign state of Palestine a starting point? Reservations were a travesty of justice when perpetrated on the First Nations of North America, just as the Bantustans were on the native population of South Africa.

It's not a starting point to have a Palestinian country because it isn't safe for Israel. It hasn't been safe since 1948. Still isn't. It might be in the future. But no, it is not a starting point.
Having an Israeli state clearly isn't safe for Palestinians, so presumably that shouldn't be a starting point either.
Posts: 2789 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
quote:

How is it that Jordan isn't considered the Palestinian state, and that is the basis of 2 state solution: Israel and Jordan? No doubt there are some reasons for this, but are they good ones?

If someone turfed you off your land, and told you, "You can't go back to your home, even though your family have lived there for multiple generations" and then gleefully told you "But you can go to another land, right next door, and that's your new home." How would you feel? [/QB]
While I have not had this experience personally, my grandfather's family did. He was born in 1892. He was chased out of East Prussia after WW1 (the corridor to the Baltic part that Hitler went to war over in 1939). The family home and farm were given to Polish people. I've been to the site.

A bit further back, my mother's family were United Empire Loyalists (UEL), loyal to the British Crown, and had their farm burnt and taken from them ~1780 in upstate New York. We know where it is.

The Cree people who are part of the treaty listed in my sig dispossessed Dene and Saulteaux people after they got guns from the French 300 years ago, pushing then north and south, and were in turn forced to sign the treaties in the late 19th century. On this one, we are currently trying to figure out how to relate to the indigenous peoples nation to nation. They don't have their own country.

I'm sure there are other examples.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10847 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
If people were trying to blow up our kids by shooting rockets at their schools, we would surely just get over it and move on.

But those bloody Jews are so notoriously touchy!

Please show me the occasion when bombs went off in London that we punished and imprisoned millions of people who had nothing to do with it.

You can't. It's bullshit.

By the same logic the Palestinians are perfectly justified in killing as many Jews as they can due to the asymmetrical war which pits a nuclear power against a few militants with peashooters and the overwhelming losses that the Palestinians have taken in this conflict compared to the Israelis.

Get a grip.

Please show me when a people like the Jews have had a very efficient system of genocide perpetrated against them within living memory, set up a state to protect themselves on land where they have lived for millennia, bent over backward to accommodate in as liberal and democratic milieu as possible other inhabitants who contain an element who want to exterminate them, and have then had supercilious, judgmental outsiders in safe countries not only condemn them for not getting everything perfect in the conditions of their tenuous existence, but engage in obscene sophistry to justify rocket (sorry, peashooter) attacks on their children.

You can't. It's bullshit.

Get a grip.

quote:
And Israel and Iran could hardly trade any serious nuclear weaponry without destroying themselves anyway.
You're assuming that anti-Semites think and act rationally.
Posts: 3202 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Any occupying power that uses 70 ton tanks as police patrol vehicles has surrendered any moral high ground it may ever have had. Even if it says that in the Bible.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 23905 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I don't think this has to do with morality. It has to do with safety. A few more liberal democracies in the region would help.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10847 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I don't think this has to do with morality. It has to do with safety. A few more liberal democracies in the region would help.

Which has absolutely sod-all to do with Merkavas driving round Gaza city. Sure, the Palestinians launch rockets into Israeli territory, but they are a pinprick compared to the bombardment and blockade that Israel applies. If Israel allowed the Palestinian Authority to have some authority it might even become more democratic, but while the Likudniks want to drive anyone who isn't an Israeli Jew into the sea, that won't happen.

In all seriousness I give thanks that Benjamin Netanyahu is PM: he's a moderate compared to most of the Likud party and its allies.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 23905 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

 - Posted      Profile for Jamat   Author's homepage   Email Jamat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Joan Peters book was boringly debunked and taken apart about two decades ago. Almost nobody seriously considers that to be an authority worth quoting today.

People who are actually right can be boringly inconvenient.I quite agree, if they don't live up to one's current version of reality. She was ad homenimed, and criticised for style and contextualisation of her sources by Finklestein and co but the central theis was not debunked. Even Wiki says so.

Joel 3:3 - 5 comments specifically on the dividing of the land. God clearly doesn't like it.

Posts: 2967 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
I don't think this has to do with morality. It has to do with safety. A few more liberal democracies in the region would help.

If safety were the main concern, they would reduce the poor treatment of the Palestinians because that fuels tensions.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16608 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As far as I understand, there is received wisdom that a group negotiates better from a power position. Israel seems to think that giving tidbits to Palestinians has endangered its safety. Perhaps it is merely a correlation and not causation. The Palestinians could aspire for a non-independent nation I think, closer to the French-Québecois nation within Canada than the Ukrainian nation within Russia. Full independence for Palestians would be seen as a base for exremists. Which does seem the experience.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10847 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
As far as I understand, there is received wisdom that a group negotiates better from a power position. Israel seems to think that giving tidbits to Palestinians has endangered its safety. Perhaps it is merely a correlation and not causation. The Palestinians could aspire for a non-independent nation I think, closer to the French-Québecois nation within Canada than the Ukrainian nation within Russia. Full independence for Palestians would be seen as a base for exremists. Which does seem the experience.

Spoken like a British Imperial official about Ireland in 1916. The Palestinian right to self-determination is not up for negotiation.
Posts: 2789 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Even Wiki says so.

Actually, on this occasion even Wikipedia is considerably more nuanced than your reading of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial#Response_to_reception

Posts: 3727 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
on land where they have lived for millennia [/QB]

Though, with the exceptions of a small number of Jewish families who had lived in Palestine for centuries, the vast majority of Jews in Israel had not lived in Israel for millennia - their parents and grandparents had come to Israel from Europe (where their families had lived for centuries, approaching a couple of millennia), and other parts of the world, within the second half of the 20th century.

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31972 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
As far as I understand, there is received wisdom that a group negotiates better from a power position. Israel seems to think that giving tidbits to Palestinians has endangered its safety. Perhaps it is merely a correlation and not causation. The Palestinians could aspire for a non-independent nation I think, closer to the French-Québecois nation within Canada than the Ukrainian nation within Russia. Full independence for Palestians would be seen as a base for exremists. Which does seem the experience.

Spoken like a British Imperial official about Ireland in 1916. The Palestinian right to self-determination is not up for negotiation.
Not Britis. . From the outside that looks like 2 isolated countries without a host of adjoining countries wanting to destroy England, ie Wales and Scotland were on England's side. And othet European countries didn't have an opinion and didn't take action. Of course Palestinians can have their own country. When it is safe to do so.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10847 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

 - Posted      Profile for Jamat   Author's homepage   Email Jamat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
on land where they have lived for millennia

Though, with the exceptions of a small number of Jewish families who had lived in Palestine for centuries, the vast majority of Jews in Israel had not lived in Israel for millennia - their parents and grandparents had come to Israel from Europe (where their families had lived for centuries, approaching a couple of millennia), and other parts of the world, within the second half of the 20th century. [/QB]
In1948 after statehood was declared, Arabs were urged to get out by radio and other media by The Arab powers surrounding the new state of Israel as they were about to be swept into the Mediterranean with all the Jews if they stayed. The grant to Israel was 13percent of what they were originally promised, The Jews wanted them to stay and some did. Lots of Arabs are Israeli citizens and are fully participating. The fact that the surrounding powers failed spectacularly in their military efforts resulted in the so called occupation. If the Arab powers had accepted the 1948 decision then so would have Israel.
Regarding US support,recall the US Liberty? Relaying Israeli military communications to Egypt in 1967 I think. The Israelis took out the aerials. There was the first betrayal of Israel by the US. Jets from the aircraft carrier Saratoga were despatched to help the liberty but then called back apparently. Why? Guilt? No enquiry big cover up. In 1973 in Yom Kippur war, the British refused to release paid for spares for Israeli tanks and denied fuel stops for US planes that were bringing supplies. This was the second British betrayal. The first was thir shameless desertion in1948. The whole world fully expected Israel to be blitzed and would not have mourned the fact. God however, is prophetically regathering his original Abrahamic people as he said he'd do in so many places in the Old T. There is indeed none so blind as those who will not see as stated above.

Posts: 2967 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

 - Posted      Profile for Jamat   Author's homepage   Email Jamat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Even Wiki says so.

Actually, on this occasion even Wikipedia is considerably more nuanced than your reading of it:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/From_Time_Immemorial#Response_to_reception

True, but please quote where Peters is said to be debunked? The central Thesis is not refuted and very generally this concerns the so called antiquity of the so called Palestinian people who were in fact 19 century Arab and Jewish immigrants. There has always been a Jewish presence in what is now Israel. The PLO under Shaqueriri deliberately kept the refugee camps operational rather than rehoming so they could continue generating hate vs Israel. Most of these Arabs now called Palestinians had fled the war. They were not kicked out by The Jews but asked to stay.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

Posts: 2967 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
3%

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16633 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

 - Posted      Profile for lilBuddha     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
From the Wikipedia article:

quote:
Anthony Lewis, in an opinion piece for The New York Times compared American and Israeli responses to the book:

Israelis have not gushed over the book as some Americans have. Perhaps that is because they know the reality of the Palestinians' existence, as great Zionists of the past knew. Perhaps it is because most understand the danger of trying to deny a people identity. As Professor Porath says, 'Neither historiography nor the Zionist cause itself gains anything from mythologizing history

and a salient point:
quote:
Writing for The New Yorker in 2011, David Remnick described the book as "an ideological tract disguised as history", "propaganda" and "pseudo-scholarship". He stated that while the book was a commercial success and had been praised by a number of writers and critics, it had been thoroughly discredited by Israeli historian Yehoshua Porath along with many others. He points out that even some right wing critics who had originally favoured the book later accepted the flaws in its scholarship.[
So, yeah.

Conservative Christian defence of Israeli abuses is just special pleading.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16608 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Originally posted by Jamat:

quote:
In1948 after statehood was declared, Arabs were urged to get out by radio and other media by The Arab powers surrounding the new state of Israel as they were about to be swept into the Mediterranean with all the Jews if they stayed. The grant to Israel was 13percent of what they were originally promised, The Jews wanted them to stay and some did.
I'm sorry but this is just wrong. I haven't got time to look up chapter and verse now but suffice it to say the removal of Palestinians from 'strategic' areas during the 1948 war was Israeli policy. Population transfers in order to build up an ethnically homogenous nation state were regarded as being morally acceptable then in a way they are not now as any German national whose ancestors lived in the Sudetenland or what is now Western Poland will tell you.

My own view, as i have said, is that as hopping in the TARDIS and preventing bad things from happening is not a live option we have to find some kind of peace deal which improves the lot of the Palestinians without unacceptably compromising the security of Israel. I think that this means, at the very least, an acknowledgement of the truth even if, in practice, we cannot undo it. Vaclav Havel was, IMO, wise to apologise for the removal of the Sudeten Germans from Czechoslovakia, as was. The Germans were equally wise not to insist that the Sudeten Germans should have a right of return. It's simply not possible to return the ethnic composition of the Mandate of Palestine back to what it was in 1948. But we ought not to lie about how we got here.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9677 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

The first was thir shameless desertion in1948. The whole world fully expected Israel to be blitzed and would not have mourned the fact. God however, is prophetically regathering his original Abrahamic people as he said he'd do in so many places in the Old T. There is indeed none so blind as those who will not see as stated above.

This, of course, was after the Stern Gang and others had carried out a campaign of murder against British troops. Let's not forget that Prime Minister Shamir was a member of the Stern Gang, and that Prime Minister Begin was a member of the slightly less violent Likud.

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6622 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Begin was Irgun which murdered Britons and Arabs equally effectively. It was two steps removed from Likud.

[ 22. October 2016, 22:15: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16633 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Please show me when a people like the Jews have had a very efficient system of genocide perpetrated against them within living memory, set up a state to protect themselves on land where they have lived for millennia, bent over backward to accommodate in as liberal and democratic milieu as possible other inhabitants who contain an element who want to exterminate them, and have then had supercilious, judgmental outsiders in safe countries not only condemn them for not getting everything perfect in the conditions of their tenuous existence, but engage in obscene sophistry to justify rocket (sorry, peashooter) attacks on their children.

I agree with Callan on the non-existence of TARDISes, but 'setting up a state to protect themselves' in territory that contains 'an element who want to exterminate them' seems to me a plan with a rather obvious flaw in it ...

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7106 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
on land where they have lived for millennia

Though, with the exceptions of a small number of Jewish families who had lived in Palestine for centuries, the vast majority of Jews in Israel had not lived in Israel for millennia - their parents and grandparents had come to Israel from Europe (where their families had lived for centuries, approaching a couple of millennia), and other parts of the world, within the second half of the 20th century. [/QB]
Yes, their numbers in their homeland had been thinned over the centuries through persecutions and expulsions.

Being Jews, however, they had no doubt brought it on themselves and deserved it.

Very uppity of them, therefore, to presume to re-occupy their own territory.

Posts: 3202 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
dyfrig
Blue Scarfed Menace
# 15

 - Posted      Profile for dyfrig   Email dyfrig   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
having grown up in a community which often used exaggeration and things that weren't quite always true to strengthen itself, it is vexing to hear untenable things being said to support a good thing..

I suggest that the "Israel: Right or Wrong" lobby widen their reading, for example to Tony Judt's "Re-appraisails" (you can skip the essays about Belgoum), Shlomo Sand's "Invention of the Jewish People", and for a trenchant Palestinian criticism of the failures of Fatah, the PNC and the PA in general, Edward Said's "Oslo to Iraq and the Roadmap".

--------------------
"He was wrong in the long run, but then, who isn't?" - Tony Judt

Posts: 6916 | From: pob dydd Iau, am hanner dydd | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
on land where they have lived for millennia

Though, with the exceptions of a small number of Jewish families who had lived in Palestine for centuries, the vast majority of Jews in Israel had not lived in Israel for millennia - their parents and grandparents had come to Israel from Europe (where their families had lived for centuries, approaching a couple of millennia), and other parts of the world, within the second half of the 20th century.

Yes, their numbers in their homeland had been thinned over the centuries through persecutions and expulsions.

Being Jews, however, they had no doubt brought it on themselves and deserved it.

Very uppity of them, therefore, to presume to re-occupy their own territory. [/QB]

After 1800 years, it wasn't theirs (and 'they' didn't exist any more than my more recent Irish and possibly Spanish, Jewish, Scots and German ancestors do) to occupy. It was already occupied. But you knew that.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16633 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

 - Posted      Profile for Alan Cresswell   Email Alan Cresswell   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Being Jews, however, they had no doubt brought it on themselves and deserved it.

Very uppity of them, therefore, to presume to re-occupy their own territory.

I never even suggested such a thing.

I have no doubt that the expulsion of the Jews from Judea and their enslavement by the Romans, and the "encouragement" by Hadrian and other Roman emperors for Gentiles to settle the newly named Syria Palestina, was a wrong done to the Jewish people. A wrong that the majority did not deserve. And, certainly a wrong that their children and grand children did not deserve.

But, to say that therefore a further wrong of expelling families who had owned and worked the land for generations made that right is just barmy. The Palestinians made homeless refugees deserved becoming a diaspora community even less (were that possible) than the Jews.

I was brought up to believe "two wrongs do not make a right".

--------------------
Don't Brexit if you haven't a scooby how to fix it.

Posts: 31972 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

 - Posted      Profile for Gee D     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Begin was Irgun which murdered Britons and Arabs equally effectively. It was two steps removed from Likud.

Did those 2 steps mean that there was less accuracy in the shots they fired?

--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 6622 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
True, but please quote where Peters is said to be debunked? The central Thesis is not refuted

Utter drivel. Peter's book has been debunked by showing that her use of sources was sloppy, out of context and sometimes downright dishonest.

Only a fool would cling to the idea that someone who has been shown to misuse sources in that way is somehow able to "prove" a central thesis. In fact, someone who is prepared to mangle information in this way is better described as a propagandist than as a serious scholar - as those who are proper historians with various positions on Israel/Palestine have repeatedly shown.

It is the North Americans who keep bringing up Peters as if it is somehow worthwhile and credible, almost nobody else thinks it is worth wasting any time on at all.

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Yes, their numbers in their homeland had been thinned over the centuries through persecutions and expulsions.

Being Jews, however, they had no doubt brought it on themselves and deserved it.

Very uppity of them, therefore, to presume to re-occupy their own territory.

This kind of bollocks is typical of the crap that passes as sensible discussion of Israel/Palestine but would be totally incomprehensible and laughable if spoken about almost anywhere else.

In case you hadn't noticed, various powers from the Romans onwards have rearranged the Mediterranean region over the last millennia. Of course the Jew have frequently lost out from the centuries of persecution. We don't have to look far in the UK to see the places where we have disgusting history of state-sanctioned anti-Semitism.

But nobody would seriously suggest that the Jews of York (never mind some other random Jews hundreds of years later who no connection at all with it) somehow have a claim due to their land ownership before the massacre of 1190.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 9834 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Begin was Irgun which murdered Britons and Arabs equally effectively. It was two steps removed from Likud.

Did those 2 steps mean that there was less accuracy in the shots they fired?
They weren't fired by Likud which wouldn't exist for another 27 years.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16633 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

 - Posted      Profile for Martin60   Email Martin60   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why does God want the Jews to live in the Levant?

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 16633 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why does God want the Jews to live in the Levant?

Because god didn't want them to live in Europe. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10847 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why does God want the Jews to live in the Levant?

Because god didn't want them to live in Europe. [Roll Eyes]
America has the greatest number of Jews outside the Middle East and a lot of Jews in Israel came from America. Wouldn't it have made sense to make the Promised Land in the USA? Upstate New York for example?

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 23905 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

 - Posted      Profile for no prophet's flag is set so...   Author's homepage   Email no prophet's flag is set so...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Madagascar, the Soviet oblast in the far east of Russia and Uganda were all possible. I have only seen the USA in fiction, e.g. The Yiddish Policeman's Union, set in Alaska.

--------------------
Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10847 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Callan
Shipmate
# 525

 - Posted      Profile for Callan     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why does God want the Jews to live in the Levant?

Because god didn't want them to live in Europe. [Roll Eyes]
America has the greatest number of Jews outside the Middle East and a lot of Jews in Israel came from America. Wouldn't it have made sense to make the Promised Land in the USA? Upstate New York for example?
I believe that David Duke has suggested that as a solution.

--------------------
How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

Posts: 9677 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641

 - Posted      Profile for chris stiles   Email chris stiles   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
I believe that David Duke has suggested that as a solution.

Well, that's one route to Godwin, I suppose.
Posts: 3727 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007  |  IP: Logged
Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119

 - Posted      Profile for Kaplan Corday         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
But nobody would seriously suggest that the Jews of York (never mind some other random Jews hundreds of years later who no connection at all with it) somehow have a claim due to their land ownership before the massacre of 1190.

What a bizarre analogy.

The issue is not properties which Jews might have held in other countries, but in the land where they began as a nation thousands of years ago, and have held onto by their fingernails ever since despite all attempts to totally dislodge them.

Given the recent Holocaust, they had and have every right to find refuge in what is historically their own country.

If the Jews had gone along with the ethos of the rest f the ME they would have liquidated or expelled all the land's inhabitants, instead of which they have made every effort commensurate with their security and existence to treat non-Jews fairly.

In return they receive non-stop damnation from safe outsiders for not committing national suicide.

That sort of unctuous moralism is not only bollocks and crap, but downright revolting.

[ 24. October 2016, 04:38: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

Posts: 3202 | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Ricardus
Shipmate
# 8757

 - Posted      Profile for Ricardus   Author's homepage   Email Ricardus   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Again, finding 'refuge' in a place where 'the ethos is to liquidate or expel all the land's inhabitants' seems to me a plan with an obvious flaw in it ...

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

Posts: 7106 | From: Liverpool, UK | Registered: Nov 2004  |  IP: Logged
Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047

 - Posted      Profile for Arethosemyfeet   Email Arethosemyfeet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
What I find interesting is the degree to which KC is fuelling the anti-Semitic trope that Jews can never really be citizens of their own countries because their only true loyalty is to other Jews. It's utterly toxic, it's bullshit, and it's very much in line with the rhetoric of certain famous 20th century regimes along with the modern far right.
Posts: 2789 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
Shipmate
# 11621

 - Posted      Profile for Jamat   Author's homepage   Email Jamat   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Again, finding 'refuge' in a place where 'the ethos is to liquidate or expel all the land's inhabitants' seems to me a plan with an obvious flaw in it ...

But buying current revisionism that lionises the so called Palestinians and demonises the Israelis who do not discriminate regarding cultures has an even more obvious flaw.
Remember that in 1948 the Arabs were told by their own authorities to leave or suffer the same fate of the Jews (being annihilated and 68 % of them did so with no pressure from Israel. ) The fact that the land vacated was taken after that war is also true but remember the land granted Israel was a postage stamp compared to that used for the creation of Jordan. It took until 1967 for Shaqueriri to finally hijack the term Palestinian for the Arab refugees. Before that the term suggested Jews.

Mr Cheesy, am I to understand you are calling me a fool? I am shocked sir! This is not the place. My seconds will call on you.Pistols or swords? May the hosts be with you!

[ 24. October 2016, 07:13: Message edited by: Jamat ]

Posts: 2967 | From: New Zealand | Registered: Jul 2006  |  IP: Logged
mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330

 - Posted      Profile for mr cheesy   Email mr cheesy   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
What a bizarre analogy.

The issue is not properties which Jews might have held in other countries, but in the land where they began as a nation thousands of years ago, and have held onto by their fingernails ever since despite all attempts to totally dislodge them.

That's a very odd way to interpret the available facts. To suggest that the Jews "held onto" the land during the Fatimid Caliphate, during the post-Crusader kingdoms, during the British Mandate etc is quite a stretch.

And if one is to mangle these ideas in this way, then one could simply argue that many current European states are actually "owned" by the residents or invaders from thousands of years ago - not to mention Australia and New Zealand which have only been occupied by white Europeans for a couple of hundred years.

The simple fact is that land ownership isn't organised like that.

Jews likely existed continuously in Israel-Palestine from Roman times. But they clearly were not "owning" much of the land, they clearly were not have "authority" over much of the land and were clearly a minority group alongside Druze, Christians (of various types), Samaritans, various types of Muslims and other Arabs for much of the last thousand years.

For anyone to argue that the Jews (and again, using Jews as a generic term for anyone who happens to be of that group and may have absolutely no genetic link at all to the area for the last 1000 years) is to say that all these other groups don't matter.

That simply isn't how land ownership works.

quote:
Given the recent Holocaust, they had and have every right to find refuge in what is historically their own country
First, that's not any kind of logical reasoning.

Given the Holocaust, they had every right to the land and property that was stolen from them in Europe but that isn't to say that they had every right to land somewhere else based on a thousand year old land claim. That's nonsense.

Now, where I would agree with you is that given the trauma that the European Jews experienced in the twentieth century, it is perfectly understandable that they looked for a place of safety. The problem with Israel/Palestine is that there was already a significant and well established community living there.

quote:
If the Jews had gone along with the ethos of the rest f the ME they would have liquidated or expelled all the land's inhabitants, instead of which they have made every effort commensurate with their security and existence to treat non-Jews fairly.
That's got almost nothing to do with anything. The early Zionists were looking for land around the world to build their homeland and were not particularly bothered about a return to the ME. It was only the development of religious fundamentalism - particularly Christian Zionism, bizarrely - which pushed them to attempt to do it around Jerusalem. And it was only the support of the USA in terms of long term funding (again linked to religious fundamentalism) which meant that this was even vaguely a feasible idea.

quote:
In return they receive non-stop damnation from safe outsiders for not committing national suicide.

That sort of unctuous moralism is not only bollocks and crap, but downright revolting.

If you read above you'll find that I've already argued that the 1967 Israel is a reality, a fact that almost everyone has said they will accept. That's not to say that I agree with the way it was set up, but is to say that it is now obviously a reality.

What I do thoroughly condemn is the way that this state uses and abuses the other inhabitants of the land outside the 1967 borders.

That is revolting, and unless you've actually been there and seen it with your own eyes, I'm not sure you're really in a position to talk about it.

--------------------
arse

Posts: 9834 | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2  3  4  5  6  ...  11  12  13 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
Check out Reform magazine
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
  ship of fools