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» Ship of Fools   » Community discussion   » Purgatory   » The "boycott, divestment, sanction" movement against Israel - is it wrong? (Page 4)

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Source: (consider it) Thread: The "boycott, divestment, sanction" movement against Israel - is it wrong?
Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why does God want the Jews to live in the Levant?

Read Joel 3 .. The word of the Lord.
Many many prophecies predict it. Jesus cannot return till Israel calls him back in antithesis to the way they once rejected him.
See also Zechariah 9-12.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
But buying current revisionism that lionises the so called Palestinians and demonises the Israelis who do not discriminate regarding cultures has an even more obvious flaw.
Remember that in 1948 the Arabs were told by their own authorities to leave or suffer the same fate of the Jews (being annihilated and 68 % of them did so with no pressure from Israel. )

Humbug. I don't believe you know what you're talking about.

quote:
The fact that the land vacated was taken after that war is also true but remember the land granted Israel was a postage stamp compared to that used for the creation of Jordan. It took until 1967 for Shaqueriri to finally hijack the term Palestinian for the Arab refugees. Before that the term suggested Jews.
Nothing to do with anything.

quote:
Mr Cheesy, am I to understand you are calling me a fool? I am shocked sir! This is not the place. My seconds will call on you.Pistols or swords? May the hosts be with you!
I was actually thinking of that fool Dershowitz, who thinks things are the way he says they are simply because he says them and then attacks people who know more than he does with nothing but bluster.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Read Joel 3 .. The word of the Lord.
Many many prophecies predict it. Jesus cannot return till Israel calls him back in antithesis to the way they once rejected him.
See also Zechariah 9-12.

I guess you must realise that there are a large number of religious Jews who despise Christian Zionists and believe that they're being hijacked by a religion that they don't believe in, right?

That the prophesies you quote about the second coming have no impact on Jews who don't believe in it?

[ 24. October 2016, 07:29: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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arse

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Jamat
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quote:
That's got almost nothing to do with anything. The early Zionists were looking for land around the world to build their homeland and were not particularly bothered about a return to the ME. It was only the development of religious fundamentalism - particularly Christian Zionism, bizarrely - which pushed them to attempt to do it around Jerusalem. And it was only the support of the USA in terms of long term funding (again linked to religious fundamentalism) which meant that this was even vaguely a feasible idea.
Proving once again what you don't know about the actual history.
The Balfour agreement, Dreyfus affair, gun cotton, Hertzl, Weizmann. There was nowhere but Israel that was ever a real option to Zionists and it was the UN in 1948 not anything at all to do with the USA that created Israel having inherited the problem from the League of Nations who inherited it from the Brits. Christian Zionism if it existed at all back then was certainly not a factor! the huge Jewish community in the US threw their weight into it of course but most of them even now are virulently anti Christian.
Incidentally, the USA tried their best to betray Israel in the 6 day war. There was a communications ship, the USS Liberty that was strafed by Israel as they were intercepting info from Israel and passing it on to Egypt.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why does God want the Jews to live in the Levant?

Read Joel 3 .. The word of the Lord.
Many many prophecies predict it. Jesus cannot return till Israel calls him back in antithesis to the way they once rejected him.
See also Zechariah 9-12.

Read Malachi 6:8 .. The word of the Lord.

All prophecy was fulfilled for and in Christ, not by any criteria that withstand the paradigm shift that began with the Renaissance of course. It worked for Him, which is all that was necessary. All of the yearning of the Exile was rewarded peacefully despite the violence of civilizations rising and falling around the Jews. Once the cradle for the Incarnation had done its job, history took over. The inertia of that single cycle story (with echoes in the patriarch myths even back to Adam) warps us to this day, it framed Jesus' prophecies recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, amplified in Revelation. The heresy of Zionism including Christian is an inevitable part of that.

Jesus returned in you. He has no body now but you. What are you doing with it?

--------------------
Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Proving once again what you don't know about the actual history.
The Balfour agreement, Dreyfus affair, gun cotton, Hertzl, Weizmann. There was nowhere but Israel that was ever a real option to Zionists and it was the UN in 1948 not anything at all to do with the USA that created Israel having inherited the problem from the League of Nations who inherited it from the Brits.

Bullshit. Uganda proposed by Hurzl in 1903, Baron Hirsch proposed Argentina in 1891, the Yiddish Oblast in the Soviet Union in the 1940s, the Alaskan Slattery proposal in for European refugees in the 1940s and so on.

In the early 20 century the Zionists looking at establishing a state around Jerusalem were not the majority even of Zionists.

Israel would never have been created without huge political and financial support from the USA. If you don't think that the prevailing influence of Christian Zionism within fundamentalist protestants in the USA had any effect on the continued support for Israel, then you're just plain wrong.


quote:
Christian Zionism if it existed at all back then was certainly not a factor! the huge Jewish community in the US threw their weight into it of course but most of them even now are virulently anti Christian.
Bullshit.

quote:
Incidentally, the USA tried their best to betray Israel in the 6 day war. There was a communications ship, the USS Liberty that was strafed by Israel as they were intercepting info from Israel and passing it on to Egypt.
You are just delusional.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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And if we're going to start spouting about Balfour and UN , the fact is that the 1947 plan for Israel/Palestine was one of partition. Unsurprisingly not including settlements in Palestinian territory. Funny that.

Wiki

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arse

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
Again, finding 'refuge' in a place where 'the ethos is to liquidate or expel all the land's inhabitants' seems to me a plan with an obvious flaw in it ...

But buying current revisionism that lionises the so called Palestinians and demonises the Israelis who do not discriminate regarding cultures has an even more obvious flaw.
My view is that most populations are in their current location for reasons that aren't very honourable, and there's very little we can profitably do about it. But one can't simultaneously claim that Israel is necessary as a safe place against persecution, *and also* that it is so dangerous that all the restrictions on Palestinian freedom are justified and proportional.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Incidentally, the USA tried their best to betray Israel in the 6 day war. There was a communications ship, the USS Liberty that was strafed by Israel as they were intercepting info from Israel and passing it on to Egypt.

Really? That was the most treacherous thing the US could do? I find that hard to believe. I'm sure that if they had put their minds to it, the US could have thought of some action far more damaging than that!

US support for Israel before and after the incident, in addition to the Israeli payments of compensation, suggests that the official Israeli explanation for the incident (that the Israeli's mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian ship) is more likely. Or do you think the Israeli's have been lying about the whole thing for all these years?

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Alan Cresswell

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It seems this thread is an intersection between parallel universes, each with very different histories.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Martin60
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And we're all in the wrong one apart from KC and J. I suspect that they are in separate ones too that converge only in the sink of Christian Zionism.

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Love wins

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
It seems this thread is an intersection between parallel universes, each with very different histories.

Yes, I tend not to argue about it now, as there is so little common ground. It ends up as a series of competing slogans and versions of history.

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the main fear that flat-earthers face is sphere itself.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

Incidentally, the USA tried their best to betray Israel in the 6 day war. There was a communications ship, the USS Liberty that was strafed by Israel as they were intercepting info from Israel and passing it on to Egypt.

.. and conspiracy theories.
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Martin60
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At least this one's not anti-Semitic ... but it's so deranged that it fosters polar anti-Semitism.

I'm sure Mossad had good reasons in God's plan for 911.

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Love wins

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Incidentally, the USA tried their best to betray Israel in the 6 day war. There was a communications ship, the USS Liberty that was strafed by Israel as they were intercepting info from Israel and passing it on to Egypt.

Really? That was the most treacherous thing the US could do? I find that hard to believe. I'm sure that if they had put their minds to it, the US could have thought of some action far more damaging than that!

US support for Israel before and after the incident, in addition to the Israeli payments of compensation, suggests that the official Israeli explanation for the incident (that the Israeli's mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian ship) is more likely. Or do you think the Israeli's have been lying about the whole thing for all these years?

Of course they have. The US was as usual trying to play both sides. The Israelis need to stay on side with the US. The Jewish lobby in the US vs the holy oil sources. Fuckwits all.
If you get all your history from Wki Mr Cheesy that explains a lot.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why does God want the Jews to live in the Levant?

Read Joel 3 .. The word of the Lord.
Many many prophecies predict it. Jesus cannot return till Israel calls him back in antithesis to the way they once rejected him.
See also Zechariah 9-12.

Read Malachi 6:8 .. The word of the Lord.

All prophecy was fulfilled for and in Christ, not by any criteria that withstand the paradigm shift that began with the Renaissance of course. It worked for Him, which is all that was necessary. All of the yearning of the Exile was rewarded peacefully despite the violence of civilizations rising and falling around the Jews. Once the cradle for the Incarnation had done its job, history took over. The inertia of that single cycle story (with echoes in the patriarch myths even back to Adam) warps us to this day, it framed Jesus' prophecies recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, amplified in Revelation. The heresy of Zionism including Christian is an inevitable part of that.

Jesus returned in you. He has no body now but you. What are you doing with it?

For one fleeting moment I thought we might have a sensible conversation. Sigh. I am NOT BTW a Christian Zionist any more than you are a NewAge post modern Christian.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The problem with Israel/Palestine is that there was already a significant and well established community living there.

Which was true of practically everywhere in the world with the the possible exception of Antarctica.

But Jews had a right to a safe and secure homeland, and Israel was the obvious ideal because they had a millenia-old historical claim to it.

quote:
I'm not sure you're really in a position to talk about it.
I am quite sure that you have no right whatsoever to pontificate against the Jews' creation of a safe haven after WWII unless you experienced the Holocaust or lost family in it.

[ 25. October 2016, 03:57: Message edited by: Kaplan Corday ]

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
But Jews had a right to a safe and secure homeland

For the fourth time: if Israel is so safe and secure, why the need to take extreme measures against the Palestinians?

--------------------
Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Of course they have. The US was as usual trying to play both sides. The Israelis need to stay on side with the US. The Jewish lobby in the US vs the holy oil sources. Fuckwits all.
If you get all your history from Wki Mr Cheesy that explains a lot.

I see. So your quoting approvingly from wikipedia upthread was perfectly acceptable, whereas my linking to a wikipedia page about facts that are not in dispute - the 1948 partition plan - isn't acceptable.

For your information, I don't get my history from wikipedia.

And the USA was not only the first country to recognise the newly independent Israel in 1948, it has consistently given massive military aid and funding down the decades. Those are not disputed facts.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I am quite sure that you have no right whatsoever to pontificate against the Jews' creation of a safe haven after WWII unless you experienced the Holocaust or lost family in it.

Ah, yes why not muddy the discussion with a ridiculous rhetorical device.

I've seen with my own eyes the brutality that Israel inflicts daily on Palestinians. I don't believe those who haven't seen it can really appreciate it.

I don't have to have lost family in the holocaust to (a) believe it happened (b) to appreciate that European Jews were looking for a place of safety (c) to find it understandable or (d) to disbelieve that they felt an attraction to Jerusalem. And of course there are many who did lose parents in the holocaust who speak out against Israeli expansionism in the 1967 Palestinian territories, so that point is thoroughly busted anyway.

Indeed, I've already said as much. The establishment of Israel bypassed the normal rules and even the UN resolution of 1947 which irregularly gave credibility to the idea was a plan for partition.

Once again: Israel is a fact, almost everyone has said that they recognise it as an entity within the 1967 borders including all of the countries who currently refuse to recognise it.

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arse

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Ricardus:
For the fourth time: if Israel is so safe and secure, why the need to take extreme measures against the Palestinians?

Well I suppose if nobody else is going to attempt an answer..

The "pro-Israel" position is that the behaviour of the Israel Defence Force is a sign of strength not weakness and that the fact that they've been able to repel the five armies from the outside, have been able to contain an angry fifth-column from the inside and gain territory in the North and West is nothing short of miraculous.

The unspoken end game, as I read it, has always been that the Israelis believe they can make life so unpleasant for the West Bank population that they'll eventually all leave voluntarily. The problem is that Palestinians are notoriously stubborn and refuse to co-operate with this plan.

So we're left with the stalemate whereby the Israeli hardliners, including those in government, get angrier and angrier at their inability to get rid of the "Palestinian problem" once and for all and the Palestinian population refuses to capitulate despite overwhelming pressure over the last 80 years.

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arse

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Why does God want the Jews to live in the Levant?

Read Joel 3 .. The word of the Lord.
Many many prophecies predict it. Jesus cannot return till Israel calls him back in antithesis to the way they once rejected him.
See also Zechariah 9-12.

Read Malachi 6:8 .. The word of the Lord.

All prophecy was fulfilled for and in Christ, not by any criteria that withstand the paradigm shift that began with the Renaissance of course. It worked for Him, which is all that was necessary. All of the yearning of the Exile was rewarded peacefully despite the violence of civilizations rising and falling around the Jews. Once the cradle for the Incarnation had done its job, history took over. The inertia of that single cycle story (with echoes in the patriarch myths even back to Adam) warps us to this day, it framed Jesus' prophecies recorded in Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, amplified in Revelation. The heresy of Zionism including Christian is an inevitable part of that.

Jesus returned in you. He has no body now but you. What are you doing with it?

For one fleeting moment I thought we might have a sensible conversation. Sigh. I am NOT BTW a Christian Zionist any more than you are a NewAge post modern Christian.
There is no sense on your side, only a looking down the telescope from the wrong end, trying to make your invincibly ignorant interpretation of the bible fit the modern world.

--------------------
Love wins

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Eutychus
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hosting/

Given the subject material, this thread's been amazingly even-tempered so far. Let's keep it that way.

/hosting

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
The problem with Israel/Palestine is that there was already a significant and well established community living there.

Which was true of practically everywhere in the world with the the possible exception of Antarctica.

But Jews had a right to a safe and secure homeland, and Israel was the obvious ideal because they had a millenia-old historical claim to it.

Which doesn't really resolve the problem - What About The Poor Buggers Already Living There? The answer from you and Jamat appears to be "fuck them; God cares about the Jews." Neither you nor your God seem to give a shit about them. No-one, anywhere, has the right to any kind of land, home or other, that is taken from other people.

quote:
quote:
I'm not sure you're really in a position to talk about it.
I am quite sure that you have no right whatsoever to pontificate against the Jews' creation of a safe haven after WWII unless you experienced the Holocaust or lost family in it.
Don't you dare try to use emotional blackmail to shut up your opponents. That sort of bullshit belongs in the Hot Place.

[ 25. October 2016, 08:57: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:

If you get all your history from Wki Mr Cheesy that explains a lot.

I'm not sure I'd trust John Loftus over Wikipedia (which is all this evidence of yours amounts to).
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Alan Cresswell

Mad Scientist 先生
# 31

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
But Jews had a right to a safe and secure homeland,

Why do Jews have such a right?

Of course Jews (and, for that matter, everyone else) has a right to a safe and secure home. But, why should that be an exclusively (or, even majority) Jewish nation state? No one is calling for Buddhists or Jainists to have their own nation, and we're fighting a war to prevent the establishment of an Islamic State. Why should the Jews be a special case?

And, I don't think "because of the Holocaust" is an adequate answer. Yes, the Holocaust was undeniably one of the worst (if not the worst) crimes against humanity and a terrible event. Yes, those who survived (both who lived through the horrors and who managed to flee to other countries) deserve our compassion and some form of compensation - at the very least the return of their property where possible. Yes, we need to take every step possible to ensure that Jews (and other minorities) can live safe, secure and prosperous lives free from the threat of any form of persecution, whereever they live. But, that does not require a Jewish state.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Callan
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Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:

quote:
I am quite sure that you have no right whatsoever to pontificate against the Jews' creation of a safe haven after WWII unless you experienced the Holocaust or lost family in it.

By that logic, presumably, unless we experienced the Nakba or have lived under the occupation we're not allowed to criticise the Palestinian struggle for self-determination?

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Martin60
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It DID not. But we have one. The UN must compensate the Palestinians unconditionally and give them the standard of living that Israel has at least. With money from the 33 countries who voted for it. And the one major player that facilitated Zionism that abstained.

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Love wins

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
But Jews had a right to a safe and secure homeland,

Why do Jews have such a right?

Of course Jews (and, for that matter, everyone else) has a right to a safe and secure home. But, why should that be an exclusively (or, even majority) Jewish nation state? No one is calling for Buddhists or Jainists to have their own nation, and we're fighting a war to prevent the establishment of an Islamic State. Why should the Jews be a special case?

And, I don't think "because of the Holocaust" is an adequate answer. Yes, the Holocaust was undeniably one of the worst (if not the worst) crimes against humanity and a terrible event. Yes, those who survived (both who lived through the horrors and who managed to flee to other countries) deserve our compassion and some form of compensation - at the very least the return of their property where possible. Yes, we need to take every step possible to ensure that Jews (and other minorities) can live safe, secure and prosperous lives free from the threat of any form of persecution, whereever they live. But, that does not require a Jewish state.

Zionism isn't about Jewish national self-determination for practitioners of the Jewish religion. It's about national self-determination for members of an ethnicity. Most of the early generation of Zionists were atheists. The argument, set forth by Theodor Herzl in 'The Jewish State', in the light of the Dreyfus affair was that Jews would never be fully accepted as citizens of their respective countries. It doesn't take very much imagination to see how this looked rather plausible in 1948. It looks less plausible now, given that there hasn't been a pogrom or mass expulsion of Jews since that date but, again, I can see why this might look more plausible to a Gentile than to a Jew of Mitteleuropean descent.

In any event there is, now, an Israeli state whose citizens are every bit as entitled to national self-determination as anyone else, including, of course the Palestinians.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Callan:
Zionism isn't about Jewish national self-determination for practitioners of the Jewish religion. It's about national self-determination for members of an ethnicity.

Then, the same argument based on ethnicity would also apply to other ethnic groups. Why, then, is there no nation for the Kurds? Or, why did we get so het up about Serbs and Croats wanting to form their own ethnic states out of the breakup of Yugoslavia? Why is there no ethnic state for aboriginal Australians, or Native Americans within the US? Or Basques in Spain? Why is the case for Scottish independence based on residence in Scotland rather than ethnicity?

So, again, why are the Jews considered different from other ethnic groups? Why do they require a nation state, when we deny that to other ethnic groups?

quote:
In any event there is, now, an Israeli state whose citizens are every bit as entitled to national self-determination as anyone else, including, of course the Palestinians.
Indeed, we need to work from where we are rather than where we think we should be. Which certainly includes a recognition of the state of Israel - though, there may still be grounds for discussion of the borders of that state.

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All I want for Christmas is EU

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Callan
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Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:

quote:
Then, the same argument based on ethnicity would also apply to other ethnic groups. Why, then, is there no nation for the Kurds? Or, why did we get so het up about Serbs and Croats wanting to form their own ethnic states out of the breakup of Yugoslavia? Why is there no ethnic state for aboriginal Australians, or Native Americans within the US? Or Basques in Spain? Why is the case for Scottish independence based on residence in Scotland rather than ethnicity?

So, again, why are the Jews considered different from other ethnic groups? Why do they require a nation state, when we deny that to other ethnic groups?

The short answer to that is that not all national movements are successful and not all ethnic groups self-identify as nations and not all members of nations believe that their nation ought to be an independent nation state. We treat Israeli Jews the same way as we treat Poles, Slovaks or Indians, who successfully established nation states in the twentieth century, and differently to, say, Bretons, Kashmiris and Kurds, who didn't. There is an incoherence to the Zionist project but it's an incoherence common to all nationalisms. Humans aren't divisible into convenient homogenous ethnic blocs in the way that most nationalists postulate.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
Incidentally, the USA tried their best to betray Israel in the 6 day war. There was a communications ship, the USS Liberty that was strafed by Israel as they were intercepting info from Israel and passing it on to Egypt.

Really? That was the most treacherous thing the US could do? I find that hard to believe. I'm sure that if they had put their minds to it, the US could have thought of some action far more damaging than that!

US support for Israel before and after the incident, in addition to the Israeli payments of compensation, suggests that the official Israeli explanation for the incident (that the Israeli's mistook the Liberty for an Egyptian ship) is more likely. Or do you think the Israeli's have been lying about the whole thing for all these years?

Of course they have. The US was as usual trying to play both sides. The Israelis need to stay on side with the US. The Jewish lobby in the US vs the holy oil sources.
Wait, why would the Israelis need to stay on side with the US? Just a few days ago, you assured us Israeli success in war shows that a supernatural hand is at work.

Is God not enough now? They need both God and the US government?

quote:
Fuckwits all.

Who, the Israelis and the Jewish lobby in the US?

quote:
If you get all your history from Wki Mr Cheesy that explains a lot.

N.B. I'm not Mr Cheesy. But Wikipedia is often a useful compendium of published sources - and I note that you haven't yet told us how you come by your explanation of the Liberty incident, and why your source should be considered more authoritative than others.
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L'organist
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Everyone here is ignoring the large number of Jews already living in what is now Israel before the Balfour Declaration. There is a widespread misconception that "the disapora" meant the Jews disappeared from that part of the world and only reappeared when some jewish people began to buy land there in the 19th century but that is simply not true; my own Jewish relatives lived in Hebron and Gaza for generations, having arrived in Gaza after the fall of Jerusalem in 1187.

As for ownership of the land, much of the land that was bought by the first returning Jewish settlers in the 19th century was not owned by 'Palestinians' but was the property of absentee landlords, frequently high-placed civil servants of the Ottoman Empire, who lived in places like Istanbul and Cairo. For example, all of the land purchases made by Moses Montefiore were from Ottoman landowners, including the site of the agricultural school in 1855 and his famous windmill. Later on land was sold to Jews by arab landowners who lived in what is now Israel-Palestine - at first mainly land they believed was worthless because it lacked water.

Much of the land from early private purchases is now in what is designated as 'Palestinian' territory and no compensation has been offered to reimburse Jewish owners for their land.

As for a boycott: I presume all the people on here calling for one are consistent and so do not use any of the retail chains founded by and owned by Jewish families? If so I can only applaud your fortitude since this will mean you won't be using
  • Selfridges
  • Dixons, PC World, Currys
  • Tesco
  • most catalogue companies, including Marisota, House of Bath & SimplyBe
  • any Gor-Ray / perma-press
  • jewellery from Ernest Jones, H Samuel, Leslie Davis in the UK; Kay Jewelers or Jared Superstores in the US

If you decide to limit yourself to anything from an Israeli-owned company stay fit and well because you won't be able to turn to Ibruprofen branded products; OK, so you don't get a headache but what about Copaxone- the main drug for MS worldwide or Alizet for Parkinsons? All developed and owned by Israel's largest pharmaceutical company Teva.

The only people to gain anything from this childish BDS movement against Israel are the activists who promote it who achieve a transitory fame: they're certainly not helping anyone in the middle-east of whatever faith.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Callan
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Originally posted by l'Organist:

quote:
Everyone here is ignoring the large number of Jews already living in what is now Israel before the Balfour Declaration. There is a widespread misconception that "the disapora" meant the Jews disappeared from that part of the world and only reappeared when some jewish people began to buy land there in the 19th century but that is simply not true; my own Jewish relatives lived in Hebron and Gaza for generations, having arrived in Gaza after the fall of Jerusalem in 1187.
That doesn't really alter the fact that there was a massive influx of Jewish settlers after 1882 or that large numbers of the people who had also been living there for centuries found themselves dispossesed in 1948 - as indeed were many Jews living in Arab countries.

quote:
As for ownership of the land, much of the land that was bought by the first returning Jewish settlers in the 19th century was not owned by 'Palestinians' but was the property of absentee landlords, frequently high-placed civil servants of the Ottoman Empire, who lived in places like Istanbul and Cairo. For example, all of the land purchases made by Moses Montefiore were from Ottoman landowners, including the site of the agricultural school in 1855 and his famous windmill. Later on land was sold to Jews by arab landowners who lived in what is now Israel-Palestine - at first mainly land they believed was worthless because it lacked water.
That's not really helpful in a discussion about Israel and Palestine where the key question is how to secure peace and find a way to reconcile the aspiration of both parties to national self-determination. Lot's of rich people own property in other countries but we don't really regard it as salient to questions of sovereignty. If large numbers of Russian oligarchs buy up property in Mayfair, it wouldn't follow that Mayfair was an indissoluble part of the Russian Motherland. Nor, I think, would most of us accept that the sovereignty of our own country could be bought and sold by financial transactions between wealthy foreigners.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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L'Organist - please do not suppose to tell me what I have forgotten. I have not. It's not the issue.

If someone has an issue with Israel, why would they boycott everything Jewish owned? Unless of course you're trying to muddy the waters by conflating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism, which frankly I've really had enough of.

Regarding land ownership, there's more to land control than ownership. If I bought large country estates in the middle of France, that would not entitle me to declare that area British, force most of the French inhabitants out, giving them the very generous option of becoming UK citizens, build a wall around it and insist everyone there live by UK law.

[X-posted with Callan]

[ 25. October 2016, 13:07: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Everyone here is ignoring the large number of Jews already living in what is now Israel before the Balfour Declaration. There is a widespread misconception that "the disapora" meant the Jews disappeared from that part of the world and only reappeared when some jewish people began to buy land there in the 19th century but that is simply not true; my own Jewish relatives lived in Hebron and Gaza for generations, having arrived in Gaza after the fall of Jerusalem in 1187.

As for ownership of the land, much of the land that was bought by the first returning Jewish settlers in the 19th century was not owned by 'Palestinians' but was the property of absentee landlords, frequently high-placed civil servants of the Ottoman Empire, who lived in places like Istanbul and Cairo. For example, all of the land purchases made by Moses Montefiore were from Ottoman landowners, including the site of the agricultural school in 1855 and his famous windmill. Later on land was sold to Jews by arab landowners who lived in what is now Israel-Palestine - at first mainly land they believed was worthless because it lacked water.

Much of the land from early private purchases is now in what is designated as 'Palestinian' territory and no compensation has been offered to reimburse Jewish owners for their land.

As for a boycott: I presume all the people on here calling for one are consistent and so do not use any of the retail chains founded by and owned by Jewish families? If so I can only applaud your fortitude since this will mean you won't be using
  • Selfridges
  • Dixons, PC World, Currys
  • Tesco
  • most catalogue companies, including Marisota, House of Bath & SimplyBe
  • any Gor-Ray / perma-press
  • jewellery from Ernest Jones, H Samuel, Leslie Davis in the UK; Kay Jewelers or Jared Superstores in the US

If you decide to limit yourself to anything from an Israeli-owned company stay fit and well because you won't be able to turn to Ibruprofen branded products; OK, so you don't get a headache but what about Copaxone- the main drug for MS worldwide or Alizet for Parkinsons? All developed and owned by Israel's largest pharmaceutical company Teva.

The only people to gain anything from this childish BDS movement against Israel are the activists who promote it who achieve a transitory fame: they're certainly not helping anyone in the middle-east of whatever faith.

What large number that NOBODY is ignoring?

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Love wins

Posts: 17007 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
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Or do you know something we don't? When, before Balfour, was it higher than Trump's chances? And it went down after Balfour of course. Again, unless you have superior facts or an esoteric, untransferable but more in fact solely Christian way of interpreting the same ones we all have?

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Love wins

Posts: 17007 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
hosting/

Given the subject material, this thread's been amazingly even-tempered so far. Let's keep it that way.

/hosting

I guess calling someone a fool and delusional and challenging someone to a duel is pretty even tempered. So what you are saying is:
Please share the sandpit nicely children?
[Smile]

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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quote:
Martin 60: invincibly ignorant interpretation
Better than having NO interpretation at all. Perhaps you could tell me what you think Joel 3 suggests or Zechariah chs 9-12?
Don't worry about Malachi 6:8 We would both agree on that.
Seriously, Martin, calling people ignorant just cos you disagree is just bad manners. I'd be happy to have a coffee some time if you ever visit NZ.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Jamat
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quote:
That's not really helpful in a discussion about Israel and Palestine where the key question is how to secure peace and find a way to reconcile the aspiration of both parties to national self-determination.
It is an insoluble problem though because whatever the Israelis give up, it will never be enough for the Islamists to whom the country called Israel is an affront by its very existence. Interestingly, when Arafat signed a peace deal with the white house as a broker, he was pretty quick to distance himself from it to his own supporters. If he hadn't he would probably have been assassinated.

None of this is surprising though when you read Zech 12:2,3 which says in the KJV

"I will make Jerusalem a cup of trembling to all the people round about... a burdensome stone for ALL people and all that burden themselves with it will be cut to pieces.."

God is saying here that if you @#** with Israel, he will do the same with you.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
God is saying here that if you @#** with Israel, he will do the same with you.

If they enjoy such divine protection, why would the Israelis have to lie about the Liberty incident?
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Jamat
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quote:
Dave W: Wait, why would the Israelis need to stay on side with the US? Just a few days ago, you assured us Israeli success in war shows that a supernatural hand is at work.

Is God not enough now? They need both God and the US government?

I know that the USA have supported Israel and long may it continue. When Truman recognised the State of Israel it was against the advice of his cabinet.

The USA is on a tightrope in that they want the holy oil and they would happily sacrifice Israel if they could.

I do think God has both established and protected Israel nonetheless. The FACT of Israel is IMV a sign of his objective existence. That they are not a God recognising society I also know. My conviction is based in the scriptural promise that he would discipline but not destroy them and when the time was right return them to the land of Israel that has been just that for at least 3000 years.

There is no nor has there ever been an ancient Palestinian people. The Palestinians so called are Arabs. They have NO ancient holy sites in the land as for instance Hebron where Abraham's tomb is which is important to Jews. (Yes, I know he had a son called Ishmael. The site was never any importance until someone thought of it recently, all the Islamic holy sites are elsewhere.)The Koran is actually ambivalent towards the Jews acknowledging in some parts that Israel was theirs before later turning against that idea when Muhummad found he was not recognised as a prophet by Jews or Christians.

The Whole Palestinian story is revisionist history and a total lie. The so called refugees were kept just that by their own Arab authorities to create political capital against Israel. So Mr Cheesy has seen Israeli soldiers being nasty? So perhaps he didn't know about the Arab girl last week who went up to some soldiers flashing a knife? It is pretty brutal over there we all would agree.

Re Wiki? yes it is a compendium of information but certainly not unbiased as of course nothing is and certainly not some truth statement about anything.

Re my source on The Liberty, google it. here It is an ongoing issue but think about why a US communications state of the art vessel is attacked by Israel while parked off the coast in 1967? AND the aircraft carrier Saratoga sent fighters to its aid but the White House called them back?

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
God is saying here that if you @#** with Israel, he will do the same with you.

If they enjoy such divine protection, why would the Israelis have to lie about the Liberty incident?
And centuries of persecution and the Holocaust. What, did God have a senior moment for a couple of millennia?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Jamat
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
God is saying here that if you @#** with Israel, he will do the same with you.

If they enjoy such divine protection, why would the Israelis have to lie about the Liberty incident?
And centuries of persecution and the Holocaust. What, did God have a senior moment for a couple of millennia?
FFS! What DO you think I am saying? Certainly not that God endorses everything about current Israel; Certainly, that their preservation is a miracle,ie there is a divine purpose in their preservation and reestablishment as a nation on the original real estate.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Dave W.
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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Dave W: Wait, why would the Israelis need to stay on side with the US? Just a few days ago, you assured us Israeli success in war shows that a supernatural hand is at work.

Is God not enough now? They need both God and the US government?

I know that the USA have supported Israel and long may it continue. When Truman recognised the State of Israel it was against the advice of his cabinet.

The USA is on a tightrope in that they want the holy oil and they would happily sacrifice Israel if they could.


None of this makes any sense to me. Israel enjoys divine protection, yet it is desperate for US support? The US supports Israel, but would happily sacrifice it? What does "holy oil" have to do with anything? It's not any holier to the US than to any other country, and the US doesn't pay any more or less than it would if it didn't support Israel.
quote:
I do think God has both established and protected Israel nonetheless. The FACT of Israel is IMV a sign of his objective existence. That they are not a God recognising society I also know. My conviction is based in the scriptural promise that he would discipline but not destroy them and when the time was right return them to the land of Israel that has been just that for at least 3000 years.

For most of that time it was pretty obviously not the land of Israel - hence the big to-do over the founding of the state in 1948. And proclaiming that your success in war is a sign of God's favor is giving some rather obvious hostages to fortune - not to mention raising the uncomfortable question of why God had apparently been on break for the previous 2000 years, and especially the previous 20.
quote:

Re Wiki? yes it is a compendium of information but certainly not unbiased as of course nothing is and certainly not some truth statement about anything.

Re my source on The Liberty, google it. here It is an ongoing issue but think about why a US communications state of the art vessel is attacked by Israel while parked off the coast in 1967? AND the aircraft carrier Saratoga sent fighters to its aid but the White House called them back?

So we're not supposed to use Wikipedia, we're just supposed to trust whatever Google dredges up?

I don't think your link shows what you think it shows. It says nothing about US secretly betraying Israeli communications to Egypt; the article speaks of "Israeli treachery" and the book refers to "Israel's crime."

Do you know what the author of that book thinks the real reason was for the attack? (Hint: it was not that the US was betraying Israel.)

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lilBuddha
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Jamat,
So, God is pretty incompetent. He had millennia to teach them how to live and that didn't work so he threw a hissy fit and let them get booted from their land, persecuted and millions killed; most of who could not be guilty of whatever Yahweh the Petulant had his knickers in a twist about and this is His plan? The miracle isn't they survived because of God, but despite him.

A note: This is not what I believe is the proper reading, but what is the implication from Jamat's argument.

[ 26. October 2016, 02:47: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Dave W.
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Hah! Cross-posted with lilBuddha, obviously!
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lilBuddha
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Interesting that Jamat's USS Liberty link is from an anti-Israeli publication.

[ 26. October 2016, 02:55: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Jamat
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quote:
Alan Cresswell: Why do Jews have such a right?
They do not have such a right. The exist quite simply because of God's mandate to Abraham. The land is God's, God gave it to the Jews; God punished the Jews in 585BC for idolatry with expulsion from the land. God in his power and providence in many prophecies said he would restore them to the land God has done and is doing just that. The end is not yet. The current diaspora has not fully ended of course but in the mid 19th century any such restoration looked totally impossible yet there were prophetic scholars even then such as Sir Robert Anderson who wrote 'The Coming Prince' who predicted on the basis of scripture, precisely what we are seeing today. There is no merit whatsoever in the Israeli state. The merit is that God said what he would do before he did it and he's doing it.

--------------------
Jamat ..in utmost longditude, where Heaven
with Earth and ocean meets, the setting sun slowly descended, and with right aspect
Against the eastern gate of Paradise. (Milton Paradise Lost Bk iv)

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Alan Cresswell

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quote:
Originally posted by Jamat:
quote:
Alan Cresswell: Why do Jews have such a right?
They do not have such a right. The exist quite simply because of God's mandate to Abraham. The land is God's, God gave it to the Jews; God punished the Jews in 585BC for idolatry with expulsion from the land. God in his power and providence in many prophecies said he would restore them to the land God has done and is doing just that. The end is not yet. The current diaspora has not fully ended of course but in the mid 19th century any such restoration looked totally impossible yet there were prophetic scholars even then such as Sir Robert Anderson who wrote 'The Coming Prince' who predicted on the basis of scripture, precisely what we are seeing today. There is no merit whatsoever in the Israeli state. The merit is that God said what he would do before he did it and he's doing it.
OK, let's try that question again.

Without recourse to a novel and minority interpretation of Christian Scriptures, why do Jews have such a right? What argument would compel secular governments to accept that the Jews have the right to a homeland - a right those same secular (post-war) governments consistently deny to other religious and ethnic group?

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All I want for Christmas is EU

Posts: 32189 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged



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