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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: US election aftermath
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Iran. What is the US going to do about the nuclear deal? Hopefully it's irrelevant as Europe and Russia will keep to the deal. What would Trump do then? He won't alienate Russia. Will he continue Obama's sanctions on it for Ukraine? I doubt it and I doubt he gives a damn what Europe thinks: he'll just do deals with everybody on a bilateral basis. Win-win like Krupp in the Boer War: supply both sides. The liberal multilateral West is dead. So why not continue the deal with Iran?
[ 20. November 2016, 12:37: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
I assume that this is the right thread for this. General Flynn has been nominated to be National Security Advisor. That gives Putin a man in the White House, at a very senior level, who has taken his money.
This farce gets more farcical by the day.
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
I disagree. The farce is becoming clearer, but no greater.
But it will not change his base; the farce can have a strong influence on the weak minded.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
lilBuddha--
Hmmm...so what we need is for Obi Wan Kenobi to tell the Trump machine "this is not the country you are looking for"?
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Gwai--
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Boy is that true! I think it's still hard to tell which statements we should be taking literally.
Best, I think, to take all of what Trump's said and done both literally *and* seriously. That way, we can be prepared.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
I wonder what Mitt Romney will do about the Sec State offer? Looks like a poisoned chalice to me. But it must be tempting. I'd like to have been a fly on the wall. Here's an imagined snippet
"DT. Well, what do you think?
MR. Who else do you have in mind?
DT. You're first. But I'm still thinking about which job to give to Rudi (Giuliani)
MR. Mr President-elect, you sure know how to pressurise a man."
And in other news, it seems that Melania and youngest son Barron won't be joining the Donald in the White House for several months - schooling cited.
Such "fun" for the security detail - not.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Michelle Obama did the same thing for her daughters, at least until the school year was ended.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Iran. What is the US going to do about the nuclear deal? Hopefully it's irrelevant as Europe and Russia will keep to the deal. What would Trump do then? He won't alienate Russia. Will he continue Obama's sanctions on it for Ukraine? I doubt it and I doubt he gives a damn what Europe thinks: he'll just do deals with everybody on a bilateral basis. Win-win like Krupp in the Boer War: supply both sides. The liberal multilateral West is dead. So why not continue the deal with Iran?
Hard to say. Probably try to renegotiate the deal. If that doesn't work, who knows? My guess is say he tried but Obama and the Europeans negotiated a lousy deal so we just have to live with it. Trump isn't a true believer in neoconservative foreign policy. We may no more when he picks a Secretary of State.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Smart. You and him. Let's hope he is eh? And yeah, he believes in nothing at all but the deal.
[ 21. November 2016, 19:42: Message edited by: Martin60 ]
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
{This is hilarious, straight out of a suspense movie, and very serious--all at the same time. Please bear with me.}
So an AP photographer, a camera, and a candidate to head Homeland Security (and his secret papers) all walk into a bar...ok, walk up to Trump's golf clubhouse.
The HS candidate isn't careful with his papers, and the photographer notices.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
You'd almost think it was done on purpose.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
From Time Magazine, a sobering analysis of what supporting Trump has done for evangelicals. For instance, the idea that a candidate has to be moral has completely gone by the board, a 180-degree reversal in direction.
One of those obnoxious articles that slams shut just as it's getting interesting.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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alienfromzog
Ship's Alien
# 5327
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Posted
Some good news this morning:
President-elect Trump has said that Nigel Farage should be the United Kingdom's ambassador to the United States.
Obviously that's not the good news. In response, Mr Farage said: "If I can help the UK in anyway, I will."
Suggestions on a postcard for how Mr Farage might help the UK..
AFZ
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Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts.
[Sen. D.P.Moynihan]
An Alien's View of Earth - my blog (or vanity exercise...)
Posts: 2150 | From: Zog, obviously! Straight past Alpha Centauri, 2nd planet on the left... | Registered: Dec 2003
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And it gets better :
Pence is in the pocket of Big Tobacco, and may try to undo regulations thereof. (Yahoo)
To the extent that his 2000 campaign website said "smoking doesn't kill".
Grrrr.
I think these guys are playing Bingo, and are trying to win with blackout. (Marking off every square on the card.)
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Evidently we have not yet plumbed the depths of Mr Trump's ignorance. Ambassadors are civil servants, not politicians.
I see the Kippers are being accused of misuse of EU funds now, though I doubt it will bother their supporters.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
What do you all think about the speech made by the "Hamilton," star to Pence? For those who haven't heard anything about it, Mr. Pence attended the play with his daughters. At the end of the play, while the cast was on stage, one of the stars read a prepared speech to Pence as he was getting up to leave with the Secret Service: quote:
We, sir — we — are the diverse America who are alarmed and anxious that your new administration will not protect us, our planet, our children, our parents, or defend us and uphold our inalienable rights,” he said. “We truly hope that this show has inspired you to uphold our American values and to work on behalf of all of us.”
Although I disagree with everything Pence stands for and think he may be even more dangerous than Trump, this doesn't sit well with me at all. The actor has a stage, a captive audience full of rabid fans, and a microphone, while Pence had none of those things and was just trying to see a play with his family.
I hate that I'm on Trump's side about this.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
What do you all think about the speech made by the "Hamilton," star to Pence?
Twilight, there was a bit of discussion about it on the previous page.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I don't get the picture of the marginalized, powerless, set-upon VP elect.
If he feels like that even for 4 minutes it would help with insight into how black Americans, gay Americans, Muslim Americans and other groups are going to feel for the next 4 years.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Donald J Trump wants Nigel Farage to be appointed the UK's ambassador to the USA
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
Speech is (as of this writing) free in this country. The Tiny Fingered One's complaints about how the media is unfair to him (today on NPR a mention of his complaint that NBC keeps on using a stock photo of him that shows his double chins) are folly. It shows that he has no idea how a free press works, not to mention his obsession with the petty minutiae. (Although I am tell those chins are not exactly minute. Enquiring minds want to know, Mr. Prez -- when are you having a face-lift? Will Pence be in charge while you're under anesthesia?)
It is the job of the president to take the hit and smile. God alone only knows that Obama did. Suck it up, buttercup.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
Yes, I couldn't get too worked up about the theatre. Business as usual for politics.
One issue which *did* make me sympathise with Trump et al was when those naked statues of him appeared in various US cities, and the left (and the media) just sniggered and high-fived each other. So much for being against body-shaming.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
I didn't. Because he has been body-shaming helpless people for decades -- those miserable beauty contest women! Let him see how it feels, and maybe notice that it is not so fun.
And word is he's considering one (token) woman for an appointment. She had better bring a big handbag, and hold it in front of her at all times.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Hiro's Leap
Shipmate
# 12470
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Posted
Perhaps "sympathise with Trump" is the wrong phrase. He's not a character I find it easy to feel sympathy for - he's awful, plus I'm not sure what would genuinely hurt him.
But those statues, and the media's reaction to them, still irritated me. It was a massive bit of body-shaming, and if Trump supporters had done that to HC first, the response would have been very, very different.
Posts: 3418 | From: UK, OK | Registered: Mar 2007
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I don't get the picture of the marginalized, powerless, set-upon VP elect.
If he feels like that even for 4 minutes it would help with insight into how black Americans, gay Americans, Muslim Americans and other groups are going to feel for the next 4 years.
How far do we carry this though? It's okay to humiliate people in the audience if the stars don't like them? Think they're not nice? Isn't this blaming the victim? Where is the line drawn? Would it be okay to beat Pence up because he's a bigot?
It's not really free speech when only the instigator has a microphone. The right to protest has a proper time and place. Suppose some homophobe had started yelling abuse from the audience during a pivotal scene of the play? Would that have been free speech?
Pence went to a play with his family. He wasn't on the campaign trail or working in any sense of the word.
Suppose Hillary had been in the audience of a Beethoven concert, and she had been called out from the stage as a person who supports abortion when (legend says) Beethoven was almost aborted.
I think it sets a precedent of just more, unescapable, political ugliness.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by twilight:
Although I disagree with everything Pence stands for and think he may be even more dangerous than Trump, this doesn't sit well with me at all.
How do you think it sits with the people who voted for Trump or who were sympathetic to some of Trump's policies but couldn't bring themselves to vote for him?
quote:
originally posted by mdijon:
I don't get the picture of the marginalized, powerless, set-upon VP elect.
You aren't Trump's target audience.
quote:
originally posted by mdijon:
If he feels like that even for 4 minutes it would help with insight into how black Americans, gay Americans, Muslim Americans and other groups are going to feel for the next 4 years.
Trump voters couldn't care less how Broadway actors and a crowd of people who can afford to pay $800 for a ticket feel about politics or anything else. Of course, rich people and Broadway actors don't care much about the feelings of underemployed rednecks in the South or Midwest either. Democrats have basically told their traditional base that they no longer need or even want them and they have no place else to go. Turns out they were wrong. So...who should be listening?
quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Speech is (as of this writing) free in this country. The Tiny Fingered One's complaints about how the media is unfair to him (today on NPR a mention of his complaint that NBC keeps on using a stock photo of him that shows his double chins) are folly.
You aren't Trump's target audience either. Nearly everybody who voted for Trump or considered voting for Trump believes that the left cares only about free speech for themselves and have no problem shaming and attempting to destroy anybody who says something they find offensive. Trump isn't going to stop the media or anybody else from talking. Why would he? The media got him elected. No, Trump wants everybody who voted for him or even considered voting for him to take the major networks and newspapers every bit as seriously as you take Fox News and Rush Limbaugh. Yes, I know what Trump said about libel laws. Is it your contention that the UK doesn't have freedom of speech or freedom of the press? Some shipmates from the UK sure do complain about the biased right wing press. Do they need more freedom?
quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
(Although I am tell those chins are not exactly minute. Enquiring minds want to know, Mr. Prez -- when are you having a face-lift? Will Pence be in charge while you're under anesthesia?)
So much for going high when he goes low. By the way, Trump wants you to go low. He's counting on you going low. Heck, Trump and his people are pleased as pie at how things are going.
quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is the job of the president to take the hit and smile. God alone only knows that Obama did. Suck it up, buttercup.
And what if he doesn't? He loses all his support in Washington D.C., New York City, and California? I bet he's going to risk it.
[ 22. November 2016, 15:51: Message edited by: Beeswax Altar ]
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Trump voters couldn't care less how Broadway actors and a crowd of people who can afford to pay $800 for a ticket feel about politics or anything else. Of course, rich people and Broadway actors don't care much about the feelings of underemployed rednecks in the South or Midwest either. Democrats have basically told their traditional base that they no longer need or even want them and they have no place else to go.
Didn't the exit polls make it clear that Hillary won the vote under 50k per year income handsomely?
And wasn't Mike Pence in the audience paying $800 for his ticket?
Making this rich vs poor seems pretty screwed up.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Because he has been body-shaming helpless people for decades -- those miserable beauty contest women!
Oh...I missed this.
Would you call on the Democrats to disavow and condemn all of their supporters and big money donors who participated in body-shaming those miserable beauty contest women? How about the fashion industry that treats women like glorified clothes hangers? How much money do Democrats get from Hollywood? You really want to go there?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
How far do we carry this though? It's okay to humiliate people in the audience if the stars don't like them? Think they're not nice? Isn't this blaming the victim? Where is the line drawn? Would it be okay to beat Pence up because he's a bigot?
Obviously it wouldn't be OK to beat him up. I really don't see the VP as a victim. To be honest I think round-audience booing is hopeless and not very nice and I wouldn't do it. Delivering a well-written and non-abusive message about very well justified concerns in a dignified manner is perfectly on. In fact that is an exercise in freedom of speech. Freedom of speech doesn't mean everyone in the audience gets a microphone. It means everyone has an opportunity to put together a play and deliver the message they want to.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Would you call on the Democrats to disavow and condemn all of their supporters and big money donors who participated in body-shaming those miserable beauty contest women? How about the fashion industry that treats women like glorified clothes hangers? How much money do Democrats get from Hollywood? You really want to go there?
This false moral equivalence to justify a guy who boasts about sexual assault and boasts about his rating of women isn't seemly.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it sets a precedent of just more, unescapable, political ugliness.
It's not a precedent when the ugliness has already happened, it is a response. It's a loosing of the dogs of a rhetorical war. Once such a beast is unleashed, it is hard for one side to restrain from any form like tactic. Though I haven't heard the group against the elected people mock disabled people, get accused of sexual assault, suggest their opponents be jailed, want to ban a religion, and anything comparable. The attempts to normalize the people who were elected doesn't seem reasonable from the outside when they so clear aren't.
The idea that the theatre should apologise is unbalance I think when the candidate might need to apologise quite broadly to many. Because these elected people are now elected doesn't mean they automagically deserve and command respect when they have been so evil previously.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Trump voters couldn't care less how Broadway actors and a crowd of people who can afford to pay $800 for a ticket feel about politics or anything else. Of course, rich people and Broadway actors don't care much about the feelings of underemployed rednecks in the South or Midwest either. Democrats have basically told their traditional base that they no longer need or even want them and they have no place else to go.
Didn't the exit polls make it clear that Hillary won the vote under 50k per year income handsomely?
And wasn't Mike Pence in the audience paying $800 for his ticket?
Making this rich vs poor seems pretty screwed up.
Yes, the Democrats can reliably count on minorities who make under $50,000 to vote for them in large numbers but not always enough to make up for the poor whites that voted for Trump. Plus, those were the same polls that led the media to predict Hillary winning in a landslide. It isn't so much about rich and poor. It's about elite and non-elite. As long as that's the dichotomy, Democrats are playing Trump's game. Democrats need to make it about rich versus poor. Doing that will require abandoning identity politics. And they aren't willing to do that as of yet. So, Republicans will continue to have home field advantage and Democrats will struggle to regain power. Republicans will probably take the white working class for granted and pander to their wealthy donors leaving Democrats the possibility of returning to power in 2020. Of course, continuing to demonize Trump voters as all manner of phobists will give Republicans more cover to please their donors. Both parties are run by idiots and that's why Trump will be president.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yes, the Democrats can reliably count on minorities who make under $50,000 to vote for them in large numbers but not always enough to make up for the poor whites that voted for Trump.
But on this occasion the exit polls showed that overall those earning <50k voted for Hillary. Not just minorities earning <50k.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Would you call on the Democrats to disavow and condemn all of their supporters and big money donors who participated in body-shaming those miserable beauty contest women? How about the fashion industry that treats women like glorified clothes hangers? How much money do Democrats get from Hollywood? You really want to go there?
This false moral equivalence to justify a guy who boasts about sexual assault and boasts about his rating of women isn't seemly.
I will give you that the religious right are hypocrites for supporting Trump after calling out Clinton. Problem is all the people calling out Trump gave Clinton a pass. So, in calling out Trump after giving Clinton a pass, they become hypocrites. So...everybody is a hypocrite. Would four more years of George H.W. Bush have been so bad? Democrats have sacrificed a lot for the Clintons. As to Hollywood and treatment of women, does the phrase casting couch mean anything to you?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Yes, the Democrats can reliably count on minorities who make under $50,000 to vote for them in large numbers but not always enough to make up for the poor whites that voted for Trump.
But on this occasion the exit polls showed that overall those earning <50k voted for Hillary. Not just minorities earning 50k.
So? Democrats need to win more of the white working class. Well, actually, the Democrats could have offset that with more of the Latino vote. Latinos voted for Trump at a higher percentage than they voted for Romney. I'm guessing a large percentage of Latino Trump voters were Cuban and lived in Florida.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
The democrats needed to win more of everybody. So? Well the so is that the Hamilton thing seemed to be cast as a rich vs poor, I pointed out that Clinton won among the poor, I thought you were implying only among the minority poor so I corrected that.
I thought B Clinton was a sleaze bag for what he did and he went on to lie about it. I thought he should have resigned at that point. I don't see moral equivalence though between that and voting in a guy who brags about sexual assault.
So Hillary had a husband who was guilty of sexual harassment at work. And supporters from an industry with a bad record on treatment of women.
Trump bragged about sexual assault.
One is guilty by association the other is actually personally guilty by their own admission.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
Because he has been body-shaming helpless people for decades -- those miserable beauty contest women!
Oh...I missed this.
Would you call on the Democrats to disavow and condemn all of their supporters and big money donors who participated in body-shaming those miserable beauty contest women? How about the fashion industry that treats women like glorified clothes hangers? How much money do Democrats get from Hollywood? You really want to go there?
It is clearly impossible to demand that a political party overthrow the entire structure of sexism in the entertainment industry. That's going to be the work of many hands over years. However, Trump is but one man, and he was egregious, calling a woman fat and forcing her to exercise in front of the cameras. Google 'Trump beauty queen' and read about it -- it was ugly. And his oppression is not hidden -- he has boasted of it -- you can see it on tape. He has boasted of going into dressing rooms of teen (underaged) contestants and ogling them while they dress. This is not institutional. It is individual, and so may be addressed by the one man.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I don't we view everybody who makes over $50,000 as rich. I make over $50,000 and I can't afford a ticket to Hamilton. Besides, Hillary also did well among college students who are unemployed. In other words, that statistic doesn't say much of anything about the Democrats appeal to working class. The electoral map that shows blue collar areas that had voted Democrat for decades turning red says far more about the problem Democrats have with the working class.
Sorry, I'm still not buying Trump being worse than Clinton.
Trump bragged that because he was rich and famous women were more sexually available to him. A quote often attributed to Kissinger is that power is the best aphrodisiac. Now, outside of the Kennedy family, nobody, and I mean nobody, takes advantage of that fact more than Bill Clinton. Yes, Clinton bragged about it. When Clinton confidant, Vernon Jordan was asked what he and the president talked about he said...well...something very similar to what Trump said.
Democrats and many in the media went out of their way to excuse Bill Clinton and downplay what he did. They didn't not hesitate to slut shame all of the women who came forward to accuse Bill Clinton. James Carville said if you drag a dollar bill through a trailer park you never know what you will get. He hasn't had problems finding work since then.
quote:
originally posted by mdijon:
So Hillary had a husband who was guilty of sexual harassment at work. And supporters from an industry with a bad record on treatment of women.
Guilt by association? Hillary was worried about "bimbo eruptions" and aided in discrediting every woman who came forward. She isn't guilty by association. She is his accomplice. As to her supporters, the industry is the entertainment industry and they provide the Clintons with a ton of money. To then expect those who aren't already supporting her to believe she and her supporters within the entertainment industry really care about other women or are shocked by Trump's behavior is a bit much.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Brenda Clough:
It is clearly impossible to demand that a political party overthrow the entire structure of sexism in the entertainment industry.
Yeah, the entertainment industry would stop giving them money then, huh?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Originally posted by Beeswax Alter:
quote:
The electoral map that shows blue collar areas that had voted Democrat for decades turning red says far more about the problem Democrats have with the working class.
It is a weird problem. Because the blue collar Republican voters are voting against their own financial interests. What some blue collar voters object to with the Democrats is about the promotion of the freedom of others.
How are the Democrats supposed to balance that?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
No, the blue collar workers voted for a candidate running on a platform that moderate to liberal Democrats were running on when blue collar workers reliably voted for them in every election. Democrats are in a bit of a pickle. Middle and working class white people could start voting as a block now. They have one of two options. One, drop the identity politics and out populist Trump which will cut into their support from minorities. Two, buy off the poor and middle class by drastically raising taxes and establishing a welfare state that makes the Swedes jealous. All the cool rich people will then join the Koch Brothers and Peter Thiel in voting for and more importantly financing Republicans. Option three is to wait for the
Republicans to take the working class for granted and get thrown out of office. Odds are they will. However, if Trump and the Republicans play his first two years in office right, the Democrats could be in the wilderness for a long, long time.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, the blue collar workers voted for a candidate running on a platform that moderate to liberal Democrats were running on when blue collar workers reliably voted for them in every election.
No they didn't. Trump's "platform" was largely racist and xenophobic sound bytes with pandering to religious conservatives. One of the few actually defined planks of his platform was his economic policy which favours the rich.
If you could define his platform, it would be fear-based.
Identity politics. A dogwhistle for repeal right for minority groups.
Not saying all Trump supporters are racist. But many of those that are not fear that preference is given to minorities and fear for their own jobs. This isn't a practical reality, but it is a perception the Republicans have played on for years. Trump is less a result of Democratic missteps than it is a fruition of Republican strategy. Though not, perhaps, exactly as they intended.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it sets a precedent of just more, unescapable, political ugliness.
It's not a precedent when the ugliness has already happened, it is a response. It's a loosing of the dogs of a rhetorical war. Once such a beast is unleashed, it is hard for one side to restrain from any form like tactic. Though I haven't heard the group against the elected people mock disabled people, get accused of sexual assault, suggest their opponents be jailed, want to ban a religion, and anything comparable. The attempts to normalize the people who were elected doesn't seem reasonable from the outside when they so clear aren't.
The idea that the theatre should apologise is unbalance I think when the candidate might need to apologise quite broadly to many. Because these elected people are now elected doesn't mean they automagically deserve and command respect when they have been so evil previously.
I don't think the theatre should apologize. I think Pence shouldn't have been called out in this venue in the first place, but I would never suggest an apology was in order.
I can't think of anytime when Obama attended a play or concert and had someone from the stage question his policy and advise him on what they hoped he would do. Nor any other president or VP that I know of, ever. It is certainly not politics as usual, because politics are not usually played out from the stage to an individual in the audience.
I don't think it's a matter of "respect," deserved or otherwise. No one suggested he stand for applause. I just think he should have been left alone like everyone else in the audience.
*Pence was in the audience, not Trump. He was in no way there as a representative of Trump.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
OK...keep telling yourself that voters who voted for Obama twice voted for Trump because they are all stupid racist xenophobes. Trump would like nothing better than for Democrats to double down on the same strategy that made his election possible. How many judges do you want Republicans to appoint before the Democrats get back in power? Think you will get any David Souters or even Anthony Kennedys this time?
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
OK...keep telling yourself that voters who voted for Obama twice voted for Trump because they are all stupid racist xenophobes.
So be careful with this argument; we just do not know to what extent the 'swing' seen was a result of voters who voted for Obama voting for Trump vs voters who voted for Obama staying at home and a different set of voters being energised into going to the polling stations and voting for Trump.
Ironically I actually agree on your wider point; anti-racism is best dog-whistled when campaigning - better to build a coalition of people who are attracted to a anti-racist set of policies than wasting energy accusing the opposition of racism. [*]
[*] which is completely different from saying that racism should be ignored.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
An issue that has not been addressed so much is how we now are going to get a Republican Congress. This is not going to be pretty.
Oh believe me, those of us in the blue states are discussing it. A lot.
And thinking ahead to '18...
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I think it sets a precedent of just more, unescapable, political ugliness.
It's not a precedent when the ugliness has already happened, it is a response. It's a loosing of the dogs of a rhetorical war. Once such a beast is unleashed, it is hard for one side to restrain from any form like tactic. Though I haven't heard the group against the elected people mock disabled people, get accused of sexual assault, suggest their opponents be jailed, want to ban a religion, and anything comparable. The attempts to normalize the people who were elected doesn't seem reasonable from the outside when they so clear aren't.
The idea that the theatre should apologise is unbalance I think when the candidate might need to apologise quite broadly to many. Because these elected people are now elected doesn't mean they automagically deserve and command respect when they have been so evil previously.
I don't think the theatre should apologize. I think Pence shouldn't have been called out in this venue in the first place, but I would never suggest an apology was in order.
I can't think of anytime when Obama attended a play or concert and had someone from the stage question his policy and advise him on what they hoped he would do. Nor any other president or VP that I know of, ever. It is certainly not politics as usual, because politics are not usually played out from the stage to an individual in the audience.
I don't think it's a matter of "respect," deserved or otherwise. No one suggested he stand for applause. I just think he should have been left alone like everyone else in the audience.
*Pence was in the audience, not Trump. He was in no way there as a representative of Trump.
Although I think Pence was being singled out for his own homophobic policies/statements, as opposed to being a stand-in for Trump. In terms of policy, Pence is not much different from Trump. In terms of temperament-- huge difference, as evidenced by their very differing responses to the speech. I have some sympathy for Pence-- not a lot, but some-- being caught off guard in a social setting, not expecting even the very restrained speech of the cast (much less the booing of the crowd). Yet he responded calmly and appropriately. The Donald-- with all the benefits of distance and opportunity for reflection-- not so much.
I probably wouldn't have given the speech, but I don't think they should apologize. It was an act of resistance, and that's never comfortable. But it was done with restraint and with some respect.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
And done within the style of the show, from the clip I saw--more or less in character.
The booing was probably too much, at this point--though, as I said earlier, Condi Rice went through it, too.
IMHO, the speech (with full cast) was a chance to *peacefully* get a message directly to someone in power, creatively.
When you do something like that, it's important to think first about possible consequences, have a safety net, and go in with your eyes open. I think it was basically a good thing to do. I just hope they don't suffer for it.
IIRC, Trump tried to be involved with theater, when he was young. (Maybe as a producer??) It didn't work out. I wonder if that fed into his reaction?
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Beeswax Altar
You've changed the terms of the discussion. At least so far as I am concerned. What happened in the UK over Brexit was political pandering. There was a legitimising of racist and xenophobic instincts amongst the have nots. Instead of an argument which says 'We recognise that many of you have been ignored and we will do better for you' the anger was focused against 'them'. Those who are different. 'They come here and benefit from our taxes and services. The fat cats take our jobs and sell them overseas to the cheapest sources'.
It becomes about 'them'. And that is precisely what Trump did. And in the process he legitimised the worst racist, xenophobic and misogynistic instincts out there. He mobilised deplorable instincts. Of course not all his supporters have deplorable instincts. But we saw the rallies and can be satisfied beyond contradiction that a sizeable element do. Without the deplorables, he would not have won. Without Hillary lumping them all together under the deplorable label, he also may not have won.
That being said, it is undoubtedly true that the Clinton campaign lost those key Northern States because it did not speak clearly and constructively enough to the legitimate rust bucket grievances. It allowed the debate to go 'low' so far as that was concerned, rather countering by aiming 'high'.
The crowning irony of this is that the GOP is the traditional party of free trade, low taxes and balanced budgets. The Democrats are the party of 'New Deal' investments in jobs and infrastructure and similar Keynesian type approaches.
How the hell Trump produces any kind of budget to meet the aspirations he has generated I really can't say. New Deals involve borrowing from the future you hope to generate to enable an escape from an intolerable present. But without some kind of neo-Keynesianist approach, the rust bucket states will find they have voted for a pig in a poke. If free trade kills jobs at home, protectionism kills jobs all over the world.
The end result is more fuel for the growing fires of racist and xenophobic nationalism. The genie has been let out of the bottle and we will pay a price for that which goes way beyond political party arguments.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
It seems like the President-elect has been having a bit of a think and has decided a few things.
- He's not going to prosecute Clinton. She's suffered enough
- He doesn't like the alt right
- He thinks he might do something about Climate Change after all
- He quite likes reading the NYT
- Yeah, maybe not with that Mexico wall thing
- He doesn't want to see photos of his double chin in the papers
- He thinks he can advise other countries on which diplomats to send to DC
- He says there is no conflict between being President and his business empire. Because.
You've just elected someone who doesn't care what he said in the election and is making up shit as he goes along.
Perhaps less frightening than the idea that he'd spend his days pandering to the neo-Nazis, but still rather worrying that the US President is going to be following whichever way the wind blows on any given day.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
[*]He thinks he might do something about Climate Change after all
Possibly. It isn't really reflected in terms of appointments though.
quote:
You've just elected someone who doesn't care what he said in the election and is making up shit as he goes along.
Or he craves the approval of the wealthy and powerful and so his views are just a reflection of whoever he met last.
Posts: 4035 | From: Berkshire | Registered: May 2007
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