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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: US election aftermath
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I often use these boards as practice to refine my own arguments to take into RL.
Refining your arguments or refining your powers of ridicule?
I think the latter belongs in Hell, which seems ideally suited to it.
[ 23. January 2017, 08:57: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Out there, we have actual fascists killing elected officials...
What? What news did I miss?
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I share similar concerns to Eutychus [and thanks for the acronymn expansion]. But I can also ponder the futility of trying to reason with people far gone. But how many of those who voted for Trump are that far gone [mr cheesy made the point it was a small number of hardcore voters].
How do we engage with those who voted for Trump [or hard-right loony parties here] because of disillusionment, or poverty, or fear? Is ridicule the only way to reach these? I hope not. And I hope the inevitable disappointment which will come won't make them more disillusioned...or worse.
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I often use these boards as practice to refine my own arguments to take into RL.
Refining your arguments or refining your powers of ridicule?
I think the latter belongs in Hell, which seems ideally suited to it.
Well, I think you'll find the answer to your question in the piece of text you quoted from me.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Out there, we have actual fascists killing elected officials...
What? What news did I miss?
This?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
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Posted
Thanks. Sorry, I was thinking of events in the US.
[ 23. January 2017, 09:08: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
But it's not even good ridicule right now. It's cheap insults.
Good ridicule points out the things that are ridiculous about Trump's rhetoric, Trump's policies, Trump's flaws in personality and how they affect his capacity to function as President.
Resorting to comments about the size of his fingers is just cheap. Comments like that don't enhance an argument, they frankly suggest a lack of any kind of argument. If someone I was arguing against resorted to that kind of thing, I'd have increased confidence that they were unable to meaningfully refute my position.
[ 23. January 2017, 09:38: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
And given some of the outrage about Trump's own behaviour in mocking people (such as imitating a disabled person), what does mocking his appearance do other than affirm his own tactics?
That's not what winning an argument looks like. That's losing the war.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Ditto re T's fingers. That's something he can't help. And, frankly, I wasn't able to see the size issue until recently. I was more focused on how he used his hands with his talking.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If someone I was arguing against resorted to that kind of thing, I'd have increased confidence that they were unable to meaningfully refute my position.
It isn't possible to "meaningfully refute" a position that is a combination of lies and propaganda. How do you engage with a person who says that he didn't actually say something which is clearly recorded on camera saying? How do you engage with someone who says that the thing millions of people saw wasn't true and that the "alternative facts" are this other thing?
This isn't politics-as-normal, this is 1984.
[ 23. January 2017, 09:45: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So the dichotomy is reason or ridicule?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If someone I was arguing against resorted to that kind of thing, I'd have increased confidence that they were unable to meaningfully refute my position.
It isn't possible to "meaningfully refute" a position that is a combination of lies and propaganda.
Of course it is.
You painstakingly, dispassionately, and exhaustively document those lies and propaganda.
(In doing so, you might find your own tactics and assumptions about the truth need some refining and correction).
Do this enough, and your opponent's position becomes ridiculous on the basis of facts, not invective.
You will never beat Trump or his fans, especially his internet fans, by trying to out-insult them.
[ 23. January 2017, 09:51: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Though I don't think reason is likely to work with Trump himself. (Possibly with some of the people around him.)
It might be possible for him to grasp a bit of one truth, if someone very carefully and simply explains it to him. Like "Being president is a 24/7 job"--which I don't think he gets. (After their first sit-down, Obama said T didn't realize how much is involved.) Or "People will die, if they lose insurance". Or "Let's walk through this section of town, and meet a few people". Or "Kids *do* learn things at public {/state} schools". Or even "People will like you better, if you are kind to them".
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
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Posted
I've read at least one commentator from Italy saying that it was only when the left stopped focussing on how silly Berlusconi was and made a serious attempt to attack his policies that they got rid of him.
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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I've reached the stage where I turn off in every way when I see the meaningless game of claims, even when one side is actually honest and rational. PMQT in parliament, the Kremlin in the person of Putin or his amusingly consummate spokesman on BBC24's Hard Talk; any confrontation with a Machiavel loses, a draw is a loss.
I therefore feel that the answer includes ignoring self-serving power, never engaging with it directly, in 'debate'. Just keep speaking truth to its constituency in an Eastern, face saving, dialectical way. Making this up as I go along that could be applied to the powers too: agree with them by understanding most charitably where they are coming from, identify with them, empathize, unite with them AND suggest the perspective of truth, expand the picture. Like Percy Blakeny, The Scarlet Pimpernel, in dealing with the appalling Citizen Chauvelin. With honour, respect, without threat to their position. Aimed at actually keeping them in power and softening them.
Know what I mean?
Totally naive and incoherent as ever I'm sure.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And given some of the outrage about Trump's own behaviour in mocking people (such as imitating a disabled person), what does mocking his appearance do other than affirm his own tactics?
Yeah, I've never liked that either. And it's not that ridiculing his fingers specifically insults Trump, it's that it implicity ridicules everyone who was born with fingers like that.
Slate.com, which has pretty much gone berzerk since the election, had an article a few days back about how Trump's signature proves that he's got some sort of horrific personality defect. Well, I took a look at the article, and thought the signature bore a pronounced resemblance to my own. If I wasn't already anti-Trump, that article would certainly have made me reluctant to join up with the people who are against him.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye, it's not exactly loving our enemies is it?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
If someone I was arguing against resorted to that kind of thing, I'd have increased confidence that they were unable to meaningfully refute my position.
It isn't possible to "meaningfully refute" a position that is a combination of lies and propaganda.
Of course it is.
You painstakingly, dispassionately, and exhaustively document those lies and propaganda.
(In doing so, you might find your own tactics and assumptions about the truth need some refining and correction).
Do this enough, and your opponent's position becomes ridiculous on the basis of facts, not invective.
You will never beat Trump or his fans, especially his internet fans, by trying to out-insult them.
It may be possible to meaningfully refute a position based on lies and propaganda but these positions are often cunningly contrived to include some grain of truth and that is often the focus of the propaganda. Consequentially, you have to put the "grain of truth" in its context so that the whole piece can be analysed and refuted but that is often a lengthy process and most people get bored a) after about 20 seconds or b) once it is obvious that you are destroying the situation that has been created for them, especially one that fits their circumstances and prejudices.
People aren't thick, they just have Dead Horses to drag around. FWIW mine are the UKs supposedly independent nuclear deterrent, the DWP, German silver/grey cars and golf.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
But it isn't just about trump. If a nation has a person of such obvious grotesque deformity of character as at all popular, then it is very ill.
What is the cure for almost half of Americans looking at such a bizarre individual to carry their hopes? Is it inequality, loss of hope, poverty, too much pursuit of hedonistic goals, too many celebrity sex tapes, too much fast food, too much nation under god, too mny bombs, too much what?? Not enough what? This trump guy is the symbol for America for at least 4 years. What if problem with trump is what problems he symbolizes not just him? Whining and worrying about one creep won't fix it.
[ 23. January 2017, 12:23: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Based on the evidence in the public domain I think it is reasonable to assess that Trump is a bad man. But bad men have been elected President before. And I suppose the general mistrust of politians leads to the conclusion that they are generally self-serving, untrustworthy, bad. Trump is not a politician. 'So let's give him a chance'.
Therefore I think it is true that his supporters will do just that, see how he works out. Their minds will be changed by disappointment and disillusionment.
So I guess the right sort of dialogue - if you want it - with Trump supporters is to ask them what they think he will deliver, and which policies will help to achieve that. Then you have established a basis for assessment. If you can't get that far, there isn't any basis for dialogue anyway.
So far as the majority of Shipmates are concerned, he's a walking disaster waiting to happen. And from a post above, I get the feeling that romanlion might feel the same. He's a Libertarian voter I think. Most of the rest of us, US and globally are Democrats, or social democrats, or socialists. So it is probably inevitable that this thread has become a lament, or a moanfest, or a critique of a nasty man. Maybe we should shift further discussion, or at least some of it, to Hell. I'll think about that.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
Based on the evidence in the public domain I think it is reasonable to assess that Trump is a bad man. But bad men have been elected President before. And I suppose the general mistrust of politians leads to the conclusion that they are generally self-serving, untrustworthy, bad. Trump is not a politician. 'So let's give him a chance'.
Therefore I think it is true that his supporters will do just that, see how he works out. Their minds will be changed by disappointment and disillusionment.
So I guess the right sort of dialogue - if you want it - with Trump supporters is to ask them what they think he will deliver, and which policies will help to achieve that. Then you have established a basis for assessment. If you can't get that far, there isn't any basis for dialogue anyway.
So far as the majority of Shipmates are concerned, he's a walking disaster waiting to happen. And from a post above, I get the feeling that romanlion might feel the same. He's a Libertarian voter I think. Most of the rest of us, US and globally are Democrats, or social democrats, or socialists. So it is probably inevitable that this thread has become a lament, or a moanfest, or a critique of a nasty man. Maybe we should shift further discussion, or at least some of it, to Hell. I'll think about that.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Based on the evidence in the public domain I think it is reasonable to assess that Trump is a bad man. But bad men have been elected President before.
Based on the evidence, the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is a large man. But large men have safely ridden in lifeboats before.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
quote:
People aren't thick, they just have Dead Horses to drag around. FWIW mine are the UKs supposedly independent nuclear deterrent, the DWP, German silver/grey cars and golf.
Are we twins separated at birth, Sioni Sais?
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I've just heard a woman on LBC proclaiming that she doesn't care about the lies because Trump shows that he cares about the people in the middle states, the marches were all done by the rich people on the coasts, and the media should stop attacking him for his lies.
I have a feeling that the phone-in producer is deliberately choosing people who are going to come across as wrong.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Sorry. Explanation required. I considered putting an explanation, but thought it would confuse things - should have asterisked it.
It is a phone-in station with presenters of a variety of standpoints, based in London, but spread from there across the country. It often has calls from taxi drivers of right wing views. Not all the presenters share their opinions. I only listen to those who don't. (Don't want to risk throwing the radio out when Farage is on.)
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I've just heard a woman on LBC proclaiming that she doesn't care about the lies because Trump shows that he cares about the people in the middle states, the marches were all done by the rich people on the coasts, and the media should stop attacking him for his lies.
I have a feeling that the phone-in producer is deliberately choosing people who are going to come across as wrong.
This is why he must be embraced as I said above, included, moved on with.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rocinante
Shipmate
# 18541
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Posted
If Trump really does have Narcissistic Personality Disorder (as seems likely), then we should not expect anything he says to be true, consistent or even make sense. It will be utterly pointless to try to "catch him out" in lying, as he will just say whatever makes him feel good at any given time. He will see this as something that he is entitled to do. NPD, I'm told, is incurable and not really treatable.
Other people, to him, will either be extensions of himself (his immediate family) or puppets to be manipulated by a mixture of punishment and reward. It doesn't matter how they treat him, if they argue or flatter or whatever. The NPD sufferer does not see other people as fully human. If you massage his ego and do exactly what he wants, you may get him to do something for you, but he will just as quickly turn against you.
We can't change Trump, no-one can. We need to support the people around him, particularly the White House journalists who are going to have a very rough time over the next four years. We have to back them in shining a light on Trump's actions, and hold them to account if they show signs of being sucked into his parallel universe. They are putting themselves at risk by getting anywhere near Trump.
They haven't got off to a brilliant start by being drawn into a meaningless slap-fight about crowd sizes, while Trump and his cronies get on with the business of turning the U.S. into an extension of Trump corp. Personal material gain is the overriding objective of the NPD sufferer, Trump will seek to asset-strip as much of the U.S. as he can get away with.
Posts: 384 | From: UK | Registered: Jan 2016
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
And no I'm not talking appeasement or Niemolleresque silence, I'm talking subversive love in full awareness of all the singular i.e. un- and anti-plural, the illiberal populism, the authoritarianism, attacking the press for reporting the truth, the beginnings of fascism. This does have apocalyptic Beast and his Graham potential.
I suggest we need loyal opposition. Patriotic, united opposition. Opposition as within Lincoln's team of rivals.
Sacrificial not party opposition. Above all peaceful, calm, resolute. The starting point is Dr. King, but we have to go further. We have to do greater works.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rocinante:
We can't change Trump, no-one can. We need to support the people around him, particularly the White House journalists who are going to have a very rough time over the next four years. We have to back them in shining a light on Trump's actions, and hold them to account if they show signs of being sucked into his parallel universe. They are putting themselves at risk by getting anywhere near Trump.
This.
I expect Trump will use every inch of power he is legally and illegally entitled to to punish his "enemies". First on the list will be media who insist on reporting facts. Others will include Congresspeople who dare to vote or speak out against his agenda. They will need every bit of support we can muster. One place I plan to start is to observe which media are taking the hard tact of speaking truth to power and then resolving to purchase subscriptions. We need to make sure these media outlets survive in what will prove to be very very hard times for truth-tellers.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
OK, you win. St. Paul was right, Christian rebuke is effective! Here and now, I eschew the term 'Mango Mussolini' forever. I will cling only to the terms that have been excreted by the man himself from his own wee pursed lips. "Tiny Fingers" still solid gold, and "Pussy Grabber." Perhaps "No Tax Return"?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
OK, you win. St. Paul was right, Christian rebuke is effective! Here and now, I eschew the term 'Mango Mussolini' forever. I will cling only to the terms that have been excreted by the man himself from his own wee pursed lips. "Tiny Fingers" still solid gold, and "Pussy Grabber." Perhaps "No Tax Return"?
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Can I use Mango Mussolini then? Not a Christian, no love in me, hee hee hee.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
I doubt that getting excited over this will help much, but I fired off a message just to irritate them and make me feel better:
I look forward to placing many more orders with LL Bean in the future, but not before I read an unequivocal public statement affirming that your company's board dissociates itself absolutely from any real or apparent endorsement by or of D. Trump and that no funds originating in the company's revenue are or will be used to support that individual's political or other exploits.
That's my grumpy deed for the day done.
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
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Anselmina
Ship's barmaid
# 3032
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And given some of the outrage about Trump's own behaviour in mocking people (such as imitating a disabled person), what does mocking his appearance do other than affirm his own tactics?
That's not what winning an argument looks like. That's losing the war.
To an extent you're right. And the more ludicrous aspects of his appearance which he could help, if he wanted, shouldn't tell negatively or positively where his actual work is concerned.
Except - if he can't even take expert opinion on a good hairdo; well, we can only hope that's not an indication of how little he cares for expert opinion over his own, in more important issues!
However, one of the aspects of his mocking the disabled person - or indeed many of the folks he has attacked - was the inequality of the relationship. To watch a fantastically rich, powerful and famous person using the public political platform to mock John Doe isn't just about two guys poking fun at each other. It's about power and wealth grinding the heel into the face of the non-privileged, non-powerful ordinary person.
Politicians, royalty, the famous etc, have, since time immemorial, always been lampooned. It's what happens when you put yourself on the biggest bloody pedestal in the world and shout 'Look at me, I'm brilliant and everyone that came before me is shit. And if you don't like it you can go to hell, 'cos there's nothing you can do about it!'.
Sadly, Trump does not appear to have taken to this part of his role in the gracious, good-humoured, thick-skinned way that a rational, intelligent person would.
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Irish dogs needing homes! http://www.dogactionwelfaregroup.ie/ Greyhounds and Lurchers are shipped over to England for rehoming too!
Posts: 10002 | From: Scotland the Brave | Registered: Jul 2002
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Can I use Mango Mussolini then? Not a Christian, no love in me, hee hee hee.
Do, please.
The PG in Chief assures us, repeatedly, that he is smart. Very smart! I believe him like Gospel. Everything he does is intentional and wise. His orange skin tone, deliberate. The hair, OMG. Very expensive, you have no idea, completely planned and painfully woven together by voles in Argentina under sterile conditions. The too-long ties, a sartorial decision carefully considered. The things his press secretary says -- inserted into the poor mans mouth for disgorging.
He is smart! This must be true. Unless of course the smart is one of those alternative facts.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stercus Tauri:
I doubt that getting excited over this will help much, but I fired off a message just to irritate them and make me feel better:
I look forward to placing many more orders with LL Bean in the future, but not before I read an unequivocal public statement affirming that your company's board dissociates itself absolutely from any real or apparent endorsement by or of D. Trump and that no funds originating in the company's revenue are or will be used to support that individual's political or other exploits.
That's my grumpy deed for the day done.
Wrong target
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
He is smart! This must be true. Unless of course the smart is one of those alternative facts.
It depends a bit on your definition of "smart", but I think you would be very wrong to underestimate him.
He may not be very intelligent, but he is cunning and excellent at wriggling; he's managed to stay (more or less) ahead of the law and get himself elected POTUS. Don't be fooled by the persona. There's more to him than that.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
@ Rocinante. An excellent contribution! Probably the best way to deal with Trump is through containment, i.e. isolate him in his own cabinet by means of reason. Reason won't win everyone over, as there are some members who are mad as in frothing-at-the-mouth mad; nevertheless, the hearings do suggest that some people may be reachable.
Ultimately, I really worry about how even a favourable scenario, such as an impeachment, would work out. His henchmen (and -women) are crafting a narrative of a dishonest press in cahoots with the Evil Establishment (i.a. Congress). If Congress tries to remove him, this would be proof that Trump was right, especially if it happens before he loses sufficient support amongst his erstwhile voters. Some of his first acts of office look as if they are populist moves designed to shore up his popularity in a way that will make him difficult to touch, and it may be a while before the horrible reality of his policies becomes difficult to ignore. By this time he may have caused lasting damage and maybe even imperilled world peace.
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
To take one example: Trump appears to be pushing forward with moving the US embassy in Israel from Tel Aviv to Jerusalem.
It seems to be asserted that Trump is a narcissist who craves attention and worship. He indeed displays some of the characteristics of some of the most extremely dysfunctional Roman emperors. If he does not get the attention he craves, he will generate it by doing something sufficiently outrageous, even if just for the helluvit, without any thought to its consequences. Moving the US Embassy to Jerusalem would fit the bill perfectly.
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Though I don't think reason is likely to work with Trump himself. (Possibly with some of the people around him.)
It might be possible for him to grasp a bit of one truth, if someone very carefully and simply explains it to him. Like "Being president is a 24/7 job"--which I don't think he gets. (After their first sit-down, Obama said T didn't realize how much is involved.) Or "People will die, if they lose insurance". Or "Let's walk through this section of town, and meet a few people". Or "Kids *do* learn things at public {/state} schools". Or even "People will like you better, if you are kind to them".
As others have noted above, all this does not matter in the mind of a small, narcissist mind. What matters to him is that he is applauded by his fans. Only when that stops will he start listening. It will take time to link a body count to him and expose him for the monster he is in the minds of his current post-truth supporters, but alas, it will take time.
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... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
That will never stop. Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Amin are STILL missed by people who never suffered under them. They were adored by people who did to the end. We're that kind of monkey.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Host
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Based on the evidence in the public domain I think it is reasonable to assess that Trump is a bad man. But bad men have been elected President before.
Based on the evidence, the Baron Vladimir Harkonnen is a large man. But large men have safely ridden in lifeboats before.
Now that is an interesting parallel. Baron V H is one of the nastiest pieces of work in fiction.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I can't think of an equal, let alone worse. Not even Lord Foul.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There probably should be a column, daily if necessary, summarizing the mendacities of each day.
I should think that Rachel Maddow on MSNBC would be up to it.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Brenda--
"PG" as a name for Trump: Definition, please?
Thx.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
The Pipsqueak God?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
P***y Grabber, I assume.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
Another item for our list of "don'ts":
Don't talk about blowing up the White House, not even in jest or metaphorically. (Looking at *you*, Madonna. She said, in her speech at a march, that she wanted to do that. Now, she's cleaning up the mess, via social media, and says it's a metaphor.)
It could get you arrested. And it makes it hard to listen to anything else you say.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Alt Wally
Cardinal Ximinez
# 3245
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I didn't suggest any particular strategy for the Democrats, only that fear of payback is foolish given the Republicans' demonstrated propensity to obstruct no matter what. Obstruction may be less successful as an opposition stance for Democrats than it has been for Republicans, but trying to block bad policies is the higher moral ground; it would be foolish to adopt a policy of kissing Trump's ass in the vain hope that in four years' time the Republicans might just stop acting like Republicans.
The high ground is not about blocking bad policy. Which ground to occupy is going to be a choice between accommodation where there is shared interest with Trump and complete opposition. Those advocating accommodation will face stiff resistance and have legitimate fear for their re-electability.
The complete opposition approach throws governing out the window and legitimizes the Republican approach. I think the Republicans were successful at it because they could much more effectively channel the narrowly focused anger of the Tea Party which at its core is anti-governmental. So there is not something inherently conflicting in their message. Government is the problem to them, so debilitating it does not pose an existential quandary.
So this is not about payback or kissing ass in my estimation. Hopefully I am not extending this conversation beyond its shelf life.
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Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
There probably should be a column, daily if necessary, summarizing the mendacities of each day.
I should think that Rachel Maddow on MSNBC would be up to it.
Then there was Molly Ivins. Ten years since she died, and I still miss her. I think she would have enjoyed donald fart. Favourite quote: "If his IQ were any lower, they'd have to water him twice a day".
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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
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Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
P***y Grabber, I assume.
Yes, that's it. All denigratory references shall be ones that he dropped from his own teeny fishlike lips. Never again shall I refer to him as the Mango Mussolini, or Mr. Cheeto Head.
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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
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Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by Dave W.:
I didn't suggest any particular strategy for the Democrats, only that fear of payback is foolish given the Republicans' demonstrated propensity to obstruct no matter what. Obstruction may be less successful as an opposition stance for Democrats than it has been for Republicans, but trying to block bad policies is the higher moral ground; it would be foolish to adopt a policy of kissing Trump's ass in the vain hope that in four years' time the Republicans might just stop acting like Republicans.
The high ground is not about blocking bad policy. Which ground to occupy is going to be a choice between accommodation where there is shared interest with Trump and complete opposition. Those advocating accommodation will face stiff resistance and have legitimate fear for their re-electability.
The complete opposition approach throws governing out the window and legitimizes the Republican approach. I think the Republicans were successful at it because they could much more effectively channel the narrowly focused anger of the Tea Party which at its core is anti-governmental. So there is not something inherently conflicting in their message. Government is the problem to them, so debilitating it does not pose an existential quandary.
So this is not about payback or kissing ass in my estimation. Hopefully I am not extending this conversation beyond its shelf life.
Well it appears that your estimation has changed, then, since in your original formulation it was exactly about payback. Does this sound familiar? quote:
My point is if the initial starting position is complete resistance and total commitment to the defeat of the incoming administration, you should ready yourself for that in 4 years if the Democrats were to regain the Presidency.
Given the experience of the last eight years this is still a farcical warning, since Democrats can have no reasonable expectation of future cooperation in any case.
But I think we've gone around this mulberry bush a sufficient number of times. You seem unwilling to either defend or abandon that statement, or even acknowledge that you made it at all, so I suppose there's really no reason for me to attempt to discuss it. We'll just attribute it to "Anon." and let it go.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
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