Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: US election aftermath
|
neandergirl
Opposing the thumb
# 8916
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: If people are forced to show up, only to spoil their ballots, then what's the point?
I've never heard of American polling places having food and entertainment. Maybe in a small town. Or in a place, like Iowa, which has caucuses. AIUI, people show up and vote by moving from one side of the room to another. I can see that having something of a party atmosphere.
A number of the PTAs in my reasonably large US city had stalls selling baked goods and snacks to those lining up to vote.
-------------------- Never will I leave you; never will I forsake you. Hebrews 13:5 NIV We come from love, we return to love, and all around is love. Lord, ease our burdens, give us peace and enable us to do your work. Tree Bee
Posts: 2579 | From: 21218 | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
I've just heard James O'Brien on LBC (phone in radio station) report that No 10 has been asked if May condemns torture, and have refused to comment. This in response to someone who rang in, appalled that in our name she is giving this mendacious torture supporting thing the beautiful gift of a loving cup.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
la vie en rouge
Parisienne
# 10688
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Barnabas62: An open invitation to the PG?
Theresa May seems ready to join the new President in his desire to remake the world. I suspect she has a reciprocal invitation to visit the UK in her pocket.
If Trump does turn up in the UK, I’d hope he’ll get the protest of his life.
Back in the day when I was a protesting student, I remember George Bush visiting London; beforehand he apparently had rather charming delusions of riding down the Mall to meet the Queen to the cheers of the adoring crowds. The Presidential aides had to have a quiet word with him about why it wasn’t a very good idea. In the event he got a rather embarrassing “Stop the War” welcome. (There was also a not insignificant protest about climate change.)
British protestors will presumably have less reason to fear retaliation than Americans and Trump is even more widely disliked in the UK, so I don’t think it would be a great PR exercise for him.
Posts: 3696 | Registered: Nov 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amos
Shipmate
# 44
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Penny S: I've just heard James O'Brien on LBC (phone in radio station) report that No 10 has been asked if May condemns torture, and have refused to comment. This in response to someone who rang in, appalled that in our name she is giving this mendacious torture supporting thing the beautiful gift of a loving cup.
She's giving him a loving cup? A LOVING CUP? Cue the famous scene from 'Freaks'. Except the freaks are the good guys.
-------------------- At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
Posts: 7667 | From: Summerisle | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
If Pussygrabber does come to the UK, protestors will not be allowed to get anywhere near His Stupendous Greatness. The fascists will see to that (and it will be reported, no doubt, that there was no protest...).
IJ
-------------------- Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dafyd
Shipmate
# 5549
|
Posted
In the meantime, Trump is setting up a commission to investigate voter fraud in the last election.
How msny sinister consequences could that have?
-------------------- we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams
Posts: 10567 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Bishops Finger: If Pussygrabber does come to the UK, protestors will not be allowed to get anywhere near His Stupendous Greatness. The fascists will see to that (and it will be reported, no doubt, that there was no protest...).
IJ
Depends how big the protest is - does it have to be near the idiot for him to hear of it?
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
That was why the March on Washington (and elsewhere worldwide) was so effective. Raw numbers, exactly what the PG in Chief adores and lives by. He could not deny it, not when it was a sea of pink hats on TV. It is the only thing he really understands.
So, if he does come? Get it in gear, UKians. Make it undeniable, unmissable, impossible to brush away. Rub his nose in it. Let me know if you would like some pink hats.
-------------------- Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
I think there will be big marches. There were supposed to be 100, 000 in Trafalgar Square last week, well, it looked nearly full on TV, and it's a big square. There is plenty of scope, misogyny, abortion, climate denialism, torture, racism, and of course, the British govt brown nosing.
-------------------- I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Brenda Clough: That was why the March on Washington (and elsewhere worldwide) was so effective. Raw numbers, exactly what the PG in Chief adores and lives by. He could not deny it, not when it was a sea of pink hats on TV. It is the only thing he really understands.
So, if he does come? Get it in gear, UKians. Make it undeniable, unmissable, impossible to brush away. Rub his nose in it. Let me know if you would like some pink hats.
I'll be there!
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crśsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
This might be a problem:
quote: Secretary of State Rex Tillerson’s job running the State Department just got considerably more difficult. The entire senior level of management officials resigned Wednesday, part of an ongoing mass exodus of senior foreign service officers who don’t want to stick around for the Trump era.
Tillerson was actually inside the State Department’s headquarters in Foggy Bottom on Wednesday, taking meetings and getting the lay of the land. I reported Wednesday morning that the Trump team was narrowing its search for his No. 2, and that it was looking to replace the State Department’s long-serving undersecretary for management, Patrick Kennedy. Kennedy, who has been in that job for nine years, was actively involved in the transition and was angling to keep that job under Tillerson, three State Department officials told me.
Then suddenly on Wednesday afternoon, Kennedy and three of his top officials resigned unexpectedly, four State Department officials confirmed. Assistant Secretary of State for Administration Joyce Anne Barr, Assistant Secretary of State for Consular Affairs Michele Bond and Ambassador Gentry O. Smith, director of the Office of Foreign Missions, followed him out the door. All are career foreign service officers who have served under both Republican and Democratic administrations.
Good thing there aren't any plans in the works to (for example) ban travel from certain countries or anything else the State Department would have to deal with. Luckily the diplomatic workload just got a little lighter, so that's a relief.
-------------------- Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
If the Abomination Of Desolation does descend in His Aweful Majesty on us poor UKippers, I'm sure we will indeed prove how revolting we can be.
My point, alas, was that the protests would simply be ignored by the right-wing trash that passes for 'the Press' here...
Meanwhile, anent The Wall, I wonder if we could contrive to send our lovely Nigel Garbage to help with its building? As part of its foundation, perhaps....
IJ
-------------------- Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ian Climacus
Liturgical Slattern
# 944
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: Trump is going after "sanctuary cities", like SF and Oakland and maybe San Jose, which usually won't turn undocumented immigrants over Immigration.
Who exactly are "undocumented immigrants"? Does it include people who overstay visas? Asylum seekers? -- I take it they are allowed into the community [unlike here where we send them to Pacific Islands to be locked up]. What does being undocumented mean for their daily lives, apart from possible fear of being found out and deported?
I know there are undocumented workers in the US too, and those who have been there a while and even had children in the US. This makes me wonder a bit, but I can understand there are no easy solutions. And I do not know the social/political system in the US so I am loathe to make judgements, but it seems if you have undocumented people *something* needs to be done -- giving them residency if they meet criteria, for instance. Or are the numbers just so overwhelming?
I have more support for the poor people who try and reach here by boat than I do the (often white) over-stayers who came here by plane and who we hear nothing about in all the rhetoric about "illegal immigrants".
Posts: 7800 | From: On the border | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Ian Climacus: quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: Trump is going after "sanctuary cities", like SF and Oakland and maybe San Jose, which usually won't turn undocumented immigrants over Immigration.
Who exactly are "undocumented immigrants"?
Foreigners without documents entitling them to be in the US. So yes, it includes people who overstay visas, although in common use it almost always refers to people who sneak across the border between the US and Mexico.
Asylum seekers? If you show up in a country, seek out an official, and request asylum, then you get given some kind of legal status until your claim is dealt with. Perhaps you are allowed into the community, perhaps you are held in a refugee camp, or whatever.
quote:
What does being undocumented mean for their daily lives, apart from possible fear of being found out and deported?
If you don't have a legal status in the US, it is difficult or impossible to get a driving license, which means you can't get insurance. You don't have normal id, so it's difficult or impossible to get a bank account. And, of course, it's hard to take a stand against being exploited because you don't want to draw attention to yourself.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
According to the Associated Press Twitter feed, The White House has just announced tariffs of 20% on Mexican imports to pay for the border wall.
Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States.
And poor the rest of us who are just about to discover why the world concluded that protectionism is a really bad idea in the 1940s.
-------------------- How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
|
Posted
I see pictures of him coming up on my twitter feed and all I can think is
"Man has Barney Rubble ever aged badly!"
-------------------- I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Callan
Shipmate
# 525
|
Posted
Weep for the future, Na' Toth.
quote: 42% of Trump voters think he should be allowed to have a private email server to just 39% who think he shouldn't be allowed to. Maybe cyber security wasn't such a big issue in last year's election after all.
-------------------- How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
It is but one example of what I have discovered is the root GOP philosophy, "For me, not you." I get untrammeled and unsecured emails. You get nagged about it relentlessly.
-------------------- Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Callan: According to the Associated Press Twitter feed, The White House has just announced tariffs of 20% on Mexican imports to pay for the border wall.
Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States.
And poor the rest of us who are just about to discover why the world concluded that protectionism is a really bad idea in the 1940s.
So Mexico will export less to the USA, and other countries will export more. Then USA would have to consider tariffs on them. All of the countries will then retaliate and prices in USA go up.
Under NAFTA, trump can't just impose tariffs immediately. 6 months notice is required. It's an international treaty. trump can't do it all himself. Your congress is required to agree to some of it, or not, depending on whether the person making the point is a trumpette or not.
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
molopata
The Ship's jack
# 9933
|
Posted
Yes. I think Congress is the linchpin. If they tether DT, then the world might yet bypass a disaster. If they go along with his deluded ways, woe betide us.
Basically, most powers around the world (especially China) are waiting to see if all this hot air translates into legislative action. If it does, things could heat up dangerously quickly. So please pray!
-------------------- ... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Leorning Cniht: quote: Originally posted by Ian Climacus: quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: Trump is going after "sanctuary cities", like SF and Oakland and maybe San Jose, which usually won't turn undocumented immigrants over Immigration.
Who exactly are "undocumented immigrants"?
Foreigners without documents entitling them to be in the US. So yes, it includes people who overstay visas, although in common use it almost always refers to people who sneak across the border between the US and Mexico.
Yes, although many estimates suggest the visa overstayers (from all over the world) outnumber the Mexican border-sneakers. But that's not what you hear from the rhetoric.
quote: Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
Asylum seekers? If you show up in a country, seek out an official, and request asylum, then you get given some kind of legal status until your claim is dealt with. Perhaps you are allowed into the community, perhaps you are held in a refugee camp, or whatever.
Yes, although because of our geographic location, the US has almost no asylum seekers. Back in the day we got our share of "boat people" from Cuba, but today there really aren't any close neighbors seeking asylum. So what we have are refugees-- those who have sought asylum in some other country (generally neighboring their own) and gone thru the very very extensive (3 years on average) vetting process. The UN distinguishes between these three categories-- immigrant (whether legal or not), asylum seeker, and refugee. I'm part of a "welcome team" for resettling refugees in our community-- the agency we are working with was gearing up to resettle 95,000 refugees in 2017-- now they don't know if they'll have any.
quote: Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
What does being undocumented mean for their daily lives, apart from possible fear of being found out and deported?
If you don't have a legal status in the US, it is difficult or impossible to get a driving license, which means you can't get insurance. You don't have normal id, so it's difficult or impossible to get a bank account. And, of course, it's hard to take a stand against being exploited because you don't want to draw attention to yourself. [/QB]
California has taken steps to make it legal for undocumented immigrants to get drivers licenses because of the problems that result when you don't. I haven't heard how successful the program has been.
In our local communities we're seeing all sorts of ill results of the fear of deportation: many/most undocumented persons will be afraid to have interaction with government officials which can impact things like registering kids for school-- even if the kids were born in US and therefore citizens. They may be reluctant to take advantage of special ed or health care services available in their community.
The Dream Act was focused on the portion of this group that was brought to the US before the age of 18-- i.e. had no say in their undocumented status-- giving them legal, safe access to public services and particularly college admission & scholarships, with a path to citizenship. Our colleges and universities have seen a flood of 1st gen applicants as a result-- a wonderfully just and successful program. Trump has stated that he plans to repeal the act.
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stercus Tauri
Shipmate
# 16668
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Penny S: I've just heard James O'Brien on LBC (phone in radio station) report that No 10 has been asked if May condemns torture, and have refused to comment. This in response to someone who rang in, appalled that in our name she is giving this mendacious torture supporting thing the beautiful gift of a loving cup.
The Glasgow Herald quoted May as saying, "...we do not sanction torture and do not get involved in it. That will continue to be our position.” I read that as her saying she is willing to continue looking the other way while the new US government resumes the practices of the GW Bush administration.
-------------------- Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)
Posts: 905 | From: On the traditional lands of the Six Nations. | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: Yes, although many estimates suggest the visa overstayers (from all over the world) outnumber the Mexican border-sneakers. But that's not what you hear from the rhetoric.
My understanding was that visa overstayers outnumber border-sneakers even among Mexicans who are in the US.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Amos: quote: Originally posted by Penny S: I've just heard James O'Brien on LBC (phone in radio station) report that No 10 has been asked if May condemns torture, and have refused to comment. This in response to someone who rang in, appalled that in our name she is giving this mendacious torture supporting thing the beautiful gift of a loving cup.
She's giving him a loving cup? A LOVING CUP? Cue the famous scene from 'Freaks'. Except the freaks are the good guys.
Ummm...errrr...is a loving cup the sort of thing a PM would usually give to a visiting head of state? Over here, those are used as trophies for competitions.
Is that perhaps a Scottish tradition? T's mom was a Scot--from the Hebrides or Orkneys, I think.
Thx.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Leorning Cniht: quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: Yes, although many estimates suggest the visa overstayers (from all over the world) outnumber the Mexican border-sneakers. But that's not what you hear from the rhetoric.
My understanding was that visa overstayers outnumber border-sneakers even among Mexicans who are in the US.
Yep. How effective is a wall going to be in preventing visa over-staying?
-------------------- "Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by molopata: Yes. I think Congress is the linchpin. If they tether DT, then the world might yet bypass a disaster. If they go along with his deluded ways, woe betide us.
Basically, most powers around the world (especially China) are waiting to see if all this hot air translates into legislative action. If it does, things could heat up dangerously quickly. So please pray!
We must remember that Crooked Donald is purely a creature of surface. Having signed a document, he's done his part. He will brag about it until the cows come home. That Congress may or may not actually enact anything, or fund the wall-building or deporting, etc., is not his problem. He will blame them for any failure of actual result to appear.
-------------------- Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...: Your congress is required to agree to some of it, or not, depending on whether the person making the point is a trumpette or not.
Pronounced to rhyme with strumpet?
-------------------- "I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: quote: Originally posted by Leorning Cniht: quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: Yes, although many estimates suggest the visa overstayers (from all over the world) outnumber the Mexican border-sneakers. But that's not what you hear from the rhetoric.
My understanding was that visa overstayers outnumber border-sneakers even among Mexicans who are in the US.
Yep. How effective is a wall going to be in preventing visa over-staying?
Not to mention that at present, the net flow of people crossing to/from El Otro Lado* is to Mexico. The wall will just slow them down.
-- *Spanish for "the other side" i.e. USA
-------------------- "You come with me to room 1013 over at the hospital, I'll show you America. Terminal, crazy and mean." -- Tony Kushner, "Angels in America"
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Callan: According to the Associated Press Twitter feed, The White House has just announced tariffs of 20% on Mexican imports to pay for the border wall.
Poor Mexico, so far from God, so close to the United States.
And poor the rest of us who are just about to discover why the world concluded that protectionism is a really bad idea in the 1940s.
The Republicans seem unaware of the History of the Smoot Hawley Tariff
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
"AP source: Border Patrol chief says he's been forced out." (Yahoo)
The dynamics might be a little more complicated than simply getting a pink slip from on high--DC, that is. Some bad feeling towards him in the union, but the union is pro Trump...
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
Yikes! The comments! All Trumpistas. Scarey.
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
|
Posted
I don't think this fight will be won on the internet, at least not in the format of trading successive comments on social media and similar.
I get the impression Trump social media support is very well organised, with heads-ups to comment massively on hot topics.
(And no hosts!).
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.
As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Martin60: Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.
As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.
The tunnel may be in profit but what about the rest of the South-Western USA without cheap labour from South of the Border?
-------------------- "He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Sioni Sais: quote: Originally posted by Martin60: Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.
As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.
The tunnel may be in profit but what about the rest of the South-Western USA without cheap labour from South of the Border?
Not only the SW. During Bush pčre's presidency, there was a serious crackdown on undocumented migrant labour and the orchards of the Washington and Oregon were left without workers, and the crop on the trees and ready for picking. At considerable public expense, the National Guard was enlisted to bring the apple crop in that year. And, as several restaurant and food writers have noted, kitchens everywhere in the US would empty, and restaurant prices rise.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Crśsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Leorning Cniht: quote: Originally posted by cliffdweller: Yes, although many estimates suggest the visa overstayers (from all over the world) outnumber the Mexican border-sneakers. But that's not what you hear from the rhetoric.
My understanding was that visa overstayers outnumber border-sneakers even among Mexicans who are in the US.
It's hard to say, given the undocumented nature of the population under discussion. Best estimates are that somewhere between a quarter and half of undocumented immigrants currently in the U.S. originally gained entry with a valid visa, which they overstayed. Relatedly, it's estimated that more than half of those currently becoming undocumented immigrants to the U.S. (i.e. the most recent group of undocumented immigrants) originally entered the country on a valid visa. In other words, increased physical security (i.e. a wall) at the U.S.-Mexico border is the immigration equivalent of generals trying to re-fight the last war (or in this case a war from the fourteenth century).
-------------------- Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Martin60: Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.
As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.
More Mexicans are going south than north.
-------------------- Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Brenda Clough
Shipmate
# 18061
|
Posted
You can only chatter about a wall if you have never been to south Texas and Arizona. It is vast and empty there. Miles and miles and miles of the border are simply arid scrub. A wall would be longer than Hadrian's wall, of Chinese Great Wall dimensions. It would be the work of generations. It is fantasy, as realistic as the Death Star and as likely as a portal to Asgard.
Toll booths -- it is to laugh. You would just walk away, into the scrub, and cross over.
-------------------- Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page
Posts: 6378 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
I suspect he wants something greater than the Great Wall, even if unconsciously. If he ever says, "And you'll be able to see it from SPACE!", we'll know for sure.
If it ever is built: Welcome, comrades, to East Berlin.
I do think it might solve many problems, temporarily, if he built the wall himself, by hand. Adobe might be nice. And he could make the bricks. Alternatively, maybe someone could get him everything that LEGO makes, so he can try out models in the Oval Office.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut: quote: Originally posted by Sioni Sais: quote: Originally posted by Martin60: Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.
As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.
The tunnel may be in profit but what about the rest of the South-Western USA without cheap labour from South of the Border?
Not only the SW. During Bush pčre's presidency, there was a serious crackdown on undocumented migrant labour and the orchards of the Washington and Oregon were left without workers, and the crop on the trees and ready for picking. At considerable public expense, the National Guard was enlisted to bring the apple crop in that year. And, as several restaurant and food writers have noted, kitchens everywhere in the US would empty, and restaurant prices rise.
Cheap labor equals immoral profits. Better to pay people a living wage.
-------------------- Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
(Copying this over from the "Women's Marches" thread.)
quote: Originally posted by Golden Key: I heard about this yesterday.
"INDIVISIBLE: A PRACTICAL GUIDE FOR RESISTING THE TRUMP AGENDA. Former congressional staffers reveal best practices for making Congress listen." (Indivisible Guide)
I've skimmed through it. Basically, how to effectively interact with your Congress peeps, and how to organize a local group. Available in English and Spanish; and in HTML, printer-friendly, and downloadable formats.
-------------------- Blessed Gator, pray for us! --"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon") --"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Sorry chaps. I was being telegraphic and witlessly expecting you to differentiate. I'm not proposing tunnels. Getting a $25bn wall built by tollbooths or import tariffs (I'd do both if I were Trump, lost opportunity there!) will drive the people traffickers underground as in the movie Sicario.
Fruit picking will become roboticized after a new class of American labour arises. Chain gangs.
-------------------- Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
Chain gangs are nothing new in Arizona.
(The best -- only? -- good news to come out of this past November's election was that Arpaio lost his bid for a seventh term as sheriff.)
-------------------- "...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe." ~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by orfeo: quote: Originally posted by Martin60: Sooo, The $12mn a mile wall for 2,000 miles, that's $24bn. Anyone seen Sicario? Remember Gaza 2014? Tunnels.
As for the economics, this is Kurt Vonnegut, Player Piano territory: the corporate state. Put a toll booth on all crossings, north for Mexicans, south for 'mer'cans, ten bucks x (350/2 = 175 million crossings pa) = $1.75bn pa wah HOO make it twenny. In profit after 7 years max.
More Mexicans are going south than north.
It's my understanding that this fluctuates both in an annual cycle and also in longer wavelengths. Plus too, it doesn't take a lot of imagination to puzzle out why more Mexicans than the patterns predict would be getting out of Dodge right now.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Dave W.
Shipmate
# 8765
|
Posted
The Pew Research Center estimates that immigration from Mexico to the US fell sharply by >50% from the 1995-2000 period to 2005-2010 and has declined further since then; flows the other way doubled over the same interval to nearly equal immigration, then fell again but not as fast as immigration, leaving net migration out of the US over 2009-2014.
The report ascribes these changes to the effects of the Great Recession and stricter enforcement of US immigration laws.
Posts: 2059 | From: the hub of the solar system | Registered: Nov 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
From the Guardian on Trump's refugee ban -
"Trump’s Executive Order claims that “the United States should not admit those who engage in acts of bigotry or hatred,” including those who perpetrate “forms of violence against women, or the persecution of those who practice religions different from their own.” Fair enough.
But, what if such a person learned those heinous lessons while he was already in the United States? And what if such a person ran for office? And what if such a person became the president of the United States? How do we protect America then?"
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
|
Posted
Not that I wish it on him, but surely someone is going to take a potshot at Pussygrabber, sooner rather than later....
IJ
-------------------- Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
It's his side that has the guns, isn't it?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote: Originally posted by Penny S: It's his side that has the guns, isn't it?
By and large, the NRA types didn't vote for Hillary.
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|