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Source: (consider it) Thread: US election aftermath
Barnabas62
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# 9110

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@ Croesos overleaf.

"Court of the Mad King" indeed.

Trump certainly strikes you as someone who can engender fear, but not inspire loyalty. That tends to make for a lot of infighting and backbiting.

[ 07. February 2017, 21:09: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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I like this article.

"In our horror, we are missing the point that perhaps Obama has grasped. The Trump “movement” – as Trump likes to call it – died on inauguration day. That row about the numbers of people in Washington’s National Mall? It mattered. For without a mass movement that makes itself physically – and dangerously – felt on the streets, there can be no future for Mussolini-style bluster.

Trump has a stay-at-home electorate of reality tv fans. It is the left who are on the streets. It is his enemies who have the youth, anger and numbers.

Obama is smiling because he knows this is going to be the most ineffectual dictatorship ever – and soon we won’t be worrying about Trump. We will be deriding his incompetence.

Then we can all go surfing."

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Garden. Room. Walk

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Can't be bothered to read the Executive Orders he's signing, but has an endless enthusiasm for looking through fabric swatches for curtains.

If only Nero had had a drapery catalog at his disposal instead of a fiddle while Rome burned . . . .

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Brenda Clough
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I like this article.

"In our horror, we are missing the point that perhaps Obama has grasped. The Trump “movement” – as Trump likes to call it – died on inauguration day. That row about the numbers of people in Washington’s National Mall? It mattered. For without a mass movement that makes itself physically – and dangerously – felt on the streets, there can be no future for Mussolini-style bluster.

Trump has a stay-at-home electorate of reality tv fans. It is the left who are on the streets. It is his enemies who have the youth, anger and numbers.

Obama is smiling because he knows this is going to be the most ineffectual dictatorship ever – and soon we won’t be worrying about Trump. We will be deriding his incompetence.

Then we can all go surfing."

That's wonderful. I read it and I do feel better. Such is my faith in Barack Obama. (Did you see the cold open on Saturday Night Live, in which the PGinChief phones Angela Merkel? Who whimpers into the phone, "Is that my sweet Barack?"

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I like this article.

"In our horror, we are missing the point that perhaps Obama has grasped. The Trump “movement” – as Trump likes to call it – died on inauguration day. That row about the numbers of people in Washington’s National Mall? It mattered. For without a mass movement that makes itself physically – and dangerously – felt on the streets, there can be no future for Mussolini-style bluster.

Trump has a stay-at-home electorate of reality tv fans. It is the left who are on the streets. It is his enemies who have the youth, anger and numbers.

Obama is smiling because he knows this is going to be the most ineffectual dictatorship ever – and soon we won’t be worrying about Trump. We will be deriding his incompetence.

Then we can all go surfing."

Please, God, let it be so.

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Pigwidgeon

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Can't be bothered to read the Executive Orders he's signing, but has an endless enthusiasm for looking through fabric swatches for curtains.

If only Nero had had a drapery catalog at his disposal instead of a fiddle while Rome burned . . . .
My Orchestra teacher in high school explained that it was unlikely that Nero had a violin -- he was more apt to have "luted" while Rome burned.
[Biased]

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Brenda Clough
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This is the sort of thing that exercises Tiny Fingers these days. If this were a novel we would not believe it; I can hear that editorial comment now: "You know, hon, you can push this kind of thing too far. It's unbelievable. No one would believe that a chief executive would be so moronic. Dial it back, would you?"

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Ian Climacus

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I like this article.

There are moments I think I'll go back to read The Granuaid. Articles like this make me remember why I stay away. Not Peak Guardian by any means, but a shallow Ode to the Converted rather than analysis. But I suppose such things may help some people get through.

I can't share such optimism. Trump may go, please God let it be so!, but we still have disaffected masses who t.e.h Left continue to ignore or have no answers for. And Trump Mark II may be worse than the first.

Until progressive politicians realise not everyone is agile and connected, not everyone wants to be disrupted, until they realise people in insecure or low-wage jobs are afraid and until they have an answer for them, they will continue to be seen as more interested in LGBTQ rights, environmentalism and refugees [which are good and proper causes in themself] to the exclusion of all else; which turns many people off [not the fighting for rights, but the fact no voices are raised for them]. Or so it seems to me. May be way off the mark.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Until progressive politicians realise not everyone is agile and connected, not everyone wants to be disrupted, until they realise people in insecure or low-wage jobs are afraid and until they have an answer for them, they will continue to be seen as more interested in LGBTQ rights, environmentalism and refugees [which are good and proper causes in themself] to the exclusion of all else; which turns many people off [not the fighting for rights, but the fact no voices are raised for them]. Or so it seems to me. May be way off the mark.

I seem to recall some kind of program American "progressive politicians" enacted recently to get a whole bunch of "people in insecure or low-wage jobs" health insurance. I think it had something to do with the guy mentioned in that Guardian article you hated, but the name eludes me at the moment. That can't be right though, because that's the kind of thing you say "progressive politicians" never do.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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TurquoiseTastic

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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I like this article.

I can't share such optimism. Trump may go, please God let it be so!, but we still have disaffected masses who t.e.h Left continue to ignore or have no answers for. And Trump Mark II may be worse than the first.

Until progressive politicians realise not everyone is agile and connected, not everyone wants to be disrupted, until they realise people in insecure or low-wage jobs are afraid and until they have an answer for them,

What sort of answers might there be, then?

I find it interesting that many seem to be distressed at Trump's protectionist and anti-globalisation stance. I can understand this from the Economist, for example, whose writers frankly love globalisation with a passion and have never been afraid to say so. But it sounds a bit weird coming from the Guardian, say, or from those who would have voted for Bernie Sanders.

If Trump's economic approach is not correct, but on the other hand you don't like globalisation, what do you suggest?

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
I seem to recall some kind of program American "progressive politicians" enacted recently to get a whole bunch of "people in insecure or low-wage jobs" health insurance. I think it had something to do with the guy mentioned in that Guardian article you hated, but the name eludes me at the moment. That can't be right though, because that's the kind of thing you say "progressive politicians" never do.

I did not intend, nor think I did say, they never do anything. I'm just wondering if Jill the boilermaker in the mid-West is as fussed about progressive issues as she is about job security. I've read left-leaning rants that expressed similar ideas to mine -- the Democrats have chased the 1% from Ivy League unis and forgot about their base and what matters to them. Now, I could be wrong here; I'm in a different country and read only certain sources. If so, let me know as you did above.

What I think about the ACA is in another matter -- making other people pay more to subsidise others seems a very good way to get people offside (and I speak as someone who would pay more if it helped others...but I can see how this would not appeal to many).


What is the answer? Fucked if I know. But whatever is happening around the world in the centre and left seems like not the way given the rise of the alt-right. Not electing someone like Trump for a start. But I was more reacting to the thought in the article that all will be fine as Trump will implode or his supporters will run away. To hell it will. A new beast arising, more horrific than the first, is what scares me. I see no sign people will come more towards the centre, or, as I'd hope, to the left given that is where my allegiances lie.

Sorry to post and run; I'm away for a few days. Sorry if I did not express myself well or say something egregiously false/offensive. I'm trying to get my thoughts down and may not always succeed. Apologies if this, or the post above, caused offence due to my inability to express myself clearly or by any lies I accidentally expressed. I appreciate the rigour and intellect posters here bring to such discussions.

[ 08. February 2017, 21:43: Message edited by: Ian Climacus ]

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Brenda Clough
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A friend of mine had to take his car to the shop, so he sat in the waiting room waiting for them to finish the oil change or whatever. He listened to another pair of people, talking. They were die-hard Trump supporters and were happily discussing how great it was all going and how fine things were going to be.

The problem today is that there are two worlds, two separate realities -- bubbles, as it were. Which one is the real world? It is hotly debated. There is a significant fraction of the population in the US that thinks The PGinChief is doing a wonderful job. How can these people learn to think in a different way? DamifIknow.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
How can these people learn to think in a different way?

When they get sick and can't go to the doctor because they no longer have insurance; or when they can no longer afford to buy groceries, electronic gadgets or a car because of what import tariffs have done to prices -- maybe then. But they'll probably find someone else to blame.

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Pigwidgeon

Ship's Owl
# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
How can these people learn to think in a different way?

When they get sick and can't go to the doctor because they no longer have insurance; or when they can no longer afford to buy groceries, electronic gadgets or a car because of what import tariffs have done to prices -- maybe then. But they'll probably find someone else to blame.
Probably Obama.

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~Tortuf

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Brenda Clough
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Or Hillary, the favorite bogeywoman for all these years.

I fear that it will indeed take a vast disaster before people wise up. It'll take a big event to pop the bubble.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
Trump may go, please God let it be so!, but we still have disaffected masses who t.e.h Left continue to ignore or have no answers for.

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I did not intend, nor think I did say, they never do anything.

I think you did. I'm not sure there's a meaningful difference between "ignore or have no answers for" and "never do anything". Perhaps you can explain how you can ignore people while doing something for them? [Confused]

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
I'm just wondering if Jill the boilermaker in the mid-West is as fussed about progressive issues as she is about job security.

Depends on the Jill. Jill the boilermaker at this point is fairly likely to be Hispanic. She may be concerned about her job security, but she may also be "fussed" about her abuela being deported. Assuming that "working class" = "white" in the United States seems to ignore current realities, or be a knee-jerk assumption that only white votes count.

I'd also like an explanation about how environmental issues are irrelevant to the "disaffected masses" in Flint, MI. Seems like the kind of thing "people in insecure or low-wage jobs" (a.k.a. folks who can't afford to move or buy a bunch of bottled water) might be concerned about, but maybe I just don't have your insight.

quote:
Originally posted by Ian Climacus:
What I think about the ACA is in another matter -- making other people pay more to subsidise others seems a very good way to get people offside (and I speak as someone who would pay more if it helped others...but I can see how this would not appeal to many).

"[M]aking other people pay more to subsidise others" is how all insurance works. You pay in to the system and you only get a big pay out if you're one of the 'lucky' ones to have a heart attack or cancer. Doing this via market mechanisms is likely sub-optimal, but was the only political feasible option available in the U.S. in 2009-2010.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Like many democratic nations in the United States there seems to be a bit of a divide between those who support one major party and those who support another.

Both sets of supporters sit in their back yards and call the other mob over the fence every name under the sun. Some swear, some use erudite language, but its all the same. They may as well be barking at each other. These people are never going to agree. Nothing will change them. Every bad point for their party or team will be ignored or minimised, and every good point highlighted and celebrated.

This does not mean that each side is morally equivalent to the other. Obviously, the people in my back yard are vastly superior and funnier.

I just can't see the USA coming together in the forseeable future, but has it really ever been politically united? I don't think it has, other than when some of its wars were being fought, maybe. Isn't the curse and credit of American Democracy its disparity?

But hey, stay on the battlefield, in the Sweet Honey in the Rock tradition. I especially say that to those shippers who are out there actively fighting against Trump, and working with refugees in their community. Salute!

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Human

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Ian Climacus

Liturgical Slattern
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An apology. I should not have posted this morning. I was in a manic phase and under delusions. I'll leave it at that. I've re-read what I wrote and Crœsos was right to pull me up on what I wrote.

I won't post here again. I'm sorry again.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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National security advisor Michael Flynn resigned. Multiple front-page stories at the Washington Post.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Barnabas62
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Discussion on that has been taking place in 'Poor Kellyanne' since Flynn was also mentioned in the OP. That thread is really about White House staff in trouble so I'll change the thread title.

B62, Purg Host

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Thanks, Barnabas. [Smile]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Crœsos
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So this apparently happened:

quote:
The FBI rejected a recent White House request to publicly knock down media reports about communications between Donald Trump's associates and Russians known to US intelligence during the 2016 presidential campaign, multiple US officials briefed on the matter tell CNN.
For context, this kind of thing featured heavily in the Nixon articles of impeachment. I suppose it might be natural for some in the White House to consider the FBI their own personal spin doctors given recent events, but Comey seems to regard that as a one-off rather than an ongoing obligation.

quote:
The White House initially disputed that account, saying that McCabe called Priebus early that morning and said The New York Times story vastly overstates what the FBI knows about the contacts.

But a White House official later corrected their version of events to confirm what the law enforcement official described.

My personal impression, for what it's worth, is that this doesn't seem like a White House worried about inaccurate coverage, it seems more like a White House panicked over accurate and very damning coverage that may just be the tip of the iceberg. You don't ask the FBI to lean on the New York Times unless you're really worried about something.

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Barnabas62
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With Croesos. I have felt for some time that this story has legs. There are echoes of Watergate. And Carl Bernstein is sniffing around this one as well.

This isn't wishful thinking. There is an offence and a cover up.

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Barnabas62
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And right on cue, Trump plays the 'fake news' card again and Spicer holds an informal press gaggle excluding media outfits on Trump's blacklist.

Diversionary tactics in play. Watch this space.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Deep Throat said to follow the money. And that's where the answer is. He can't release the tax returns. Because they will show that the Russians have him clamped by the balls. (They are using sugar tongs to do this, because they are very small.) We have a president, and thus an administration, that is in thrall to a malevolent foreign power. Luckily they seem to be horrified by him and have not made their move, but they're sure to recover before four years are over.

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
And right on cue, Trump plays the 'fake news' card again and Spicer holds an informal press gaggle excluding media outfits on Trump's blacklist.

Diversionary tactics in play. Watch this space.

spot on. I have the old Warren Zevon song in my head.
quote:
I went home with the waitress the way I always do. How was I to know she was with the Russians too? ... send lawyers guns and money, the shit has hit the fan.


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Human

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Croesos--

In addition to (not instead of) your ideas, it might also be an attempt to reinforce T's view of the world. ISTM he really can't cope with anything but "Donny is the bestest best BEST in the world; he's the ultimate WINNER; and everything he does, says, and thinks is REALLY, REALLY GREAT".

So if the nasty NY Times, CNN, etc. say something that disagrees with T, they are obviously enemies, and wrong Wrong WRONG.

Kind of like the old "Twilight Zone" ep ("A Very Fine Day"?). Bill Mumy played a little boy who was born with all his psychic switches on, full blast. No chance for moral development, or learning to cope with "no". So if people didn't agree with him, or get him what he wanted, or do what he said, something horrible would instantly happen to them. Like make Stephen King run away screaming horrible.

Nothing got better within that episode. But there was a new ep, in the '90s IIRC, where he'd somehow managed to grow up, get *some* self-control, and have a little girl. She had similar abilities, but a more balanced mind. IIRC, she ultimately forced him to do good things.

T has said that Ivanka is the one who pushes him to do good things...

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Pangolin Guerre
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# 18686

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And Ivanka seems to be mostly MIA.
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Pangolin Guerre:
And Ivanka seems to be mostly MIA.

She's a bit of a mystery, isn't she? Much harder to read than the obnoxious Donald.

After the recent attacks on Jewish centers, Ivanka tweeted: "America is a nation built on the principle of religious tolerance. We must protect our houses of worship & religious centers."

Which would be lovely except for what it's not saying: that her father's administration is directly linked to the uptick in anti-Semitic violence; or that religious freedom applies just as much to the Muslims her father is trying to register/ban from entry as it does to Christians & Jews.

One is left wondering whether her tweet was:
a. just a politically motivated diversionary tactic-- cover for the overt religious discrimination emanating from the white house
b. a genuine but guarded expression of her real beliefs which she cannot express more directly for fear of enraging the Orange One
c. an indication that she doesn't, in fact, recognize how much daddy's words/actions have contributed to the violence-- and so is symptom of how very blinded she is by her own privilege

All of these options seem rather sad, but for very different reasons.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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I hate to break it to you, but tweets are not exactly designed to encompass an entire philosophy. Unless your philosophy is so horribly simplistic it can fit within the character limit.

A character limit which your own post discussing what you would have liked to be in the tweet doesn't come close to meeting.

Complaining about what a tweet "did not say" strikes me as a bit like complaining about the lack of features on something you bought from a $2 shop. If you like what was IN the tweet, then that ought to be sufficient.

[ 25. February 2017, 05:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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I'd say B. Ivanka's husband is Jewish, and she converted.

She also has been trying to work for women's rights in the workplace, etc. So, whatever her faults may be, it seems she's trying to do some good. FWIW.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
This isn't wishful thinking. There is an offence and a cover up.

I'm getting confused here.

1) is the exclusion of news outlets other than those in the press pool news? And is it less news if it is for an informal press briefing rather than a press conference?

2) I have read several articles on the pressure alleged to have been exerted on intelligence officials and find myself swamped by double negatives. The White House have stoppped denying they leant on intelligence community members to deny allegations of unspecified ties to Russia, is that it? Can someone make this simpler to understand?

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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So far as the media are concerned, those excluded from the gaggle included CNN, BBC, New York Times, LA Times. The planned regular televised regular press briefing was cancelled at short notice and replaced by an informal 'gaggle' in Sean Spicer's office.

The last time I know that there was an exclusion of "press enemies" from a White House briefing was in the Obama regime when Fox News were excluded. The White House Press Association protested and threatened a total withdrawal unless Fox were reinstated. Which they were.

I am sure this present exclusion came from the top in view of Trump's speech to CPAS. I am also sure it won't last. But it is certainly a diversion from the Russia story.

Multiple FBI sources are declaring that there is evidence supporting the allegations of regular contacts between Trump associates and key Russian sources during the execution campaign. What is not proven is that these were intended to undermine the Clinton campaign. But if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...

I'm not saying that the attacks on certain elements of the media are entirely about diversion and a cover up. But they help. The Trump administration is unusually sensitive about media criticism in general and this story in particular. Like Croesos, I think they have actions to hide about behaviour which undermines the legitimacy of the Trump victory.

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Re the White House press corps (WHPC):

FYI: The WHPC (the journalists who are assigned to go to all those briefings) pretty much caved into Bush 43, after 9/11. They were as freaked out as everyone else. It seemed to me, at the time, that no one was holding Bush and the administration accountable.

It took veteran journalist Helen Thomas, blunt and feisty, to finally kick start the WHPC again. Wish she were still alive and competent. (Towards the end of her life, there was a bit of a scandal: When she was clearly way off-kilter, someone nudged her into saying something nasty about Israel, and recorded a video of it on their cell phone, and released it. (Helen was of Lebanese heritage, and (in that moment, at least) had no great love of Israel.) IIRC, she was forced to retire.)

We could use her now.

[ 25. February 2017, 08:17: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think they have actions to hide about behaviour which undermines the legitimacy of the Trump victory.

In the eyes of whom? And with what result?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Kind of like the old "Twilight Zone" ep ("A Very Fine Day"?).

You're thinking of "It's A Good Life," based on the short story by Jerome Bixby. Excellent story, excellent TZ episode.

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Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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An interesting article about facism and opposition to the press -The lesson of the Munich Post.


"The Munich Post never stopped investigating who Hitler was and what he wanted, and Hitler never stopped hating them for it.

As Hitler sought to ingratiate himself with the city’s rulers (though never giving up the threat of violence), the Post reporters dug into his shadowy background, mocking him mercilessly, exposing internal party splits, revealing the existence of a death squad (“cell G”) that murdered political opponents and was at least as responsible for Hitler’s success as his vaunted oratory.

And in their biggest, most shamefully ignored scoop, on December 9, 1931, the paper found and published a Nazi party document planning a “final solution” for Munich’s Jews — the first Hitlerite use of the word “endlösung” in such a context. Was it a euphemism for extermination? Hitler dissembled, so many could ignore the grim possibility.

The Munich Post lost and Germany came under Nazi rule — but, in a sense, the paper had also won; they were the only ones who had figured out just how sinister Hitler and the Nazis were. I believe Hitler knew this. And so, back in 1923, when Hitler had thrown the opposition into disarray and division, he saw the chance to eliminate the Munich Post. And he took it and tried, though he failed at that, too."

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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Miss Amanda--

Thanks, and you're right (Twilight Zone Wikia). The sequel is "It's Still Good Life", and his own daughter played his character's daughter.
[Cool]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
I hate to break it to you, but tweets are not exactly designed to encompass an entire philosophy. Unless your philosophy is so horribly simplistic it can fit within the character limit.

A character limit which your own post discussing what you would have liked to be in the tweet doesn't come close to meeting.

Complaining about what a tweet "did not say" strikes me as a bit like complaining about the lack of features on something you bought from a $2 shop. If you like what was IN the tweet, then that ought to be sufficient.

quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'd say B. Ivanka's husband is Jewish, and she converted.

She also has been trying to work for women's rights in the workplace, etc. So, whatever her faults may be, it seems she's trying to do some good. FWIW.

Both of these comments are missing the point, so perhaps I wasn't clear. I wasn't complaining because I thought Ivanka should have said more. What I said was simply that what we don't know makes her something of a "mystery". And yes, I'm aware of her Jewish ties, and alluded to them in the 3 options I outlined for interpreting her remarks.

The point is simply that the tweet is very much at odds with her father's policies, even though Ivanka and her husband are key advisors. We don't know what that means-- is she just acting out of her role as political advisor, trying to give cover for his explicitly anti-Muslim policies? Is she signaling that she disagrees with her father, but can't do so more explicitly for some political and/or relational reasons? Or is she simply so thoroughly enmeshed in her privileged bubble that she doesn't even recognize how much her tweet is at odds with her father's policies, or that religious freedom applies just as much to Muslims as it does to Jews?

We don't know. Which was my point.

[ 25. February 2017, 14:41: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I think they have actions to hide about behaviour which undermines the legitimacy of the Trump victory.

In the eyes of whom? And with what result?
I thought I had covered that in part in my earlier post.

quote:
Multiple FBI sources are declaring that there is evidence supporting the allegations of regular contacts between Trump associates and key Russian sources during the execution campaign. What is not proven is that these were intended to undermine the Clinton campaign. But if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck ...
The real issues are not just the evidence that such communications took place but any evidence which may exist about content. We don't know the extent of FBI monitoring (snooping?) or even the extent to which this was legitimised for National Security reasons. But we do have good reason to believe that a classified FBI briefing has taken place.

What will the results be? Well, initially, it will be up to key figures in the House and the Senate to decide whether to pursue in detail that which "acts like a duck and quacks like a duck". I'm not sure to what extent investigative journalists are doing their own digging, but I am sure that some are. But if solid evidence emerged of actual collusion over hacking and leaks between Trump people and the Russians, that would undermine the legitimacy of the election result. It would be seen to be both against free and fair elections as well as collusion with an enemy for reasons of political gain.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
What will the results be? Well, initially, it will be up to key figures in the House and the Senate to decide whether to pursue in detail that which "acts like a duck and quacks like a duck".

Key figures who are to a man halfway up 45's colon in their effort to kiss his arse. Yeah, hell of a lot of pursuit of detail is going to happen THERE. You might as well dream about getting a pony.

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Martin60
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# 368

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God bless the Daily Mail! They must be doing something right, he's banned them too.

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Love wins

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
What will the results be? Well, initially, it will be up to key figures in the House and the Senate to decide whether to pursue in detail that which "acts like a duck and quacks like a duck".

Key figures who are to a man halfway up 45's colon in their effort to kiss his arse. Yeah, hell of a lot of pursuit of detail is going to happen THERE. You might as well dream about getting a pony.
I dream of getting a pony. And riding it all the way north to the 49th parallel.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Penny S
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# 14768

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I looked on the Guardian (included, obviously, in the ban) and found he has stated "We are Americans and the future belongs to us."
My earworm is now the Lorelei, via "Tomorrow belongs to me".
What with America First, is he really ignorant of what he is echoing?

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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I am increasingly pessimistic that anyone will be able to make anything stick. Trump has the majorities where it matters.

The ongoing support of his base demonstrates he has damaged the credibility of the press enough to be able to portray any investigation as a witch-hunt and play the victim.

(I note Marine Le Pen has now taken a leaf from his book by starting to refer to "fake news").

Even if the evidence is ironclad (and again, at least to my mind, the allegations so far are confusing enough to be able to obfuscate with ease) I would not underestimate Trump's ability to wriggle.

I recall once again his boast that he could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue and retain his support. I tend to believe that's true.

The problem is that Trump as president is able to use the legitimacy of his office to add weight to his personal pronouncements. As his pronouncements erode the legitimatcy of that office, I suppose there might come a point of no return for him, but I suspect it will be very difficult to rebuild the legitimacy of the office of POTUS afterwards.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

On the contrary. Be afraid. Be very afraid.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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I'm not optimistic, mousethief. But that's the route. Time to look for an honest GOP representative or two.

Or maybe a latter day Woodstein? Worth remembering that Woodward was GOP, Bernstein Democrat.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Or maybe a latter day Woodstein? Worth remembering that Woodward was GOP, Bernstein Democrat.

But this is an anachronism.

My concern is that even if the mother of all stories is broken, it simply won't have the impact theirs did.

One thing we haven't seen yet is what Trump would do faced with a major crisis not of his own making in, say, foreign policy, or a domestic natural disaster.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Or maybe a latter day Woodstein? Worth remembering that Woodward was GOP, Bernstein Democrat.

But this is an anachronism.

My concern is that even if the mother of all stories is broken, it simply won't have the impact theirs did.

One thing we haven't seen yet is what Trump would do faced with a major crisis not of his own making in, say, foreign policy, or a domestic natural disaster.

You mean like the Reichstag catching fire?

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Or maybe a latter day Woodstein? Worth remembering that Woodward was GOP, Bernstein Democrat.

But this is an anachronism.

My concern is that even if the mother of all stories is broken, it simply won't have the impact theirs did.

One thing we haven't seen yet is what Trump would do faced with a major crisis not of his own making in, say, foreign policy, or a domestic natural disaster.

Well, it might be an anachronism. Except that the Post was very isolated at the time and much criticised by both other media and the WH. The reporters had to fight for credibility for a long time before the dam burst.

What would Trump do with some major external or domestic crisis? Firstly, blame it on his predecessor. Secondly, blame the media for exaggerating its importance. Thirdly, claim he had predicted it in his campaign.

What he would do to actually combat the crisis is anybody's guess.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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