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Source: (consider it) Thread: US election aftermath
Stetson
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[Perusant to the last post, by Barnabas, on the previous page]

As a resident of the Korean peninsula, I was somewhat heartened by Trump's response to the recent DPRK missile test. I'm actually not sure what he said, which is probably a good sign: whatever he said, it wasn't outrageous enough to garner any significant amount of headline space(cf. "Axis Of Evil").

I know there was some consternation about him flouting protocol by talking about it with Abe in public, but at the end of the day, I don't think that either outraged or emboldened the North Koreans, so no harm no foul.

And it Trump was guilty of flouting protocol, does Abe stand similarly indicted?

[ 25. February 2017, 19:07: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Brenda Clough
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The POST knows well its role in these times. They have a new slogan, "Democracy Dies in Darkness." I Supporting a free media is going to be key if we're going to survive this.
To this end, I've been urging those who can afford it to subscribe to the POST or some other newspaper pr periodical. (If you can't afford it, you might be able to read it regularly anyway. People with a .mil or .edu address, or Amazon Prime members, can get a free subscription. You may also be able to read it for free through your local library's website; you'd have to log on on their portal.)

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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Well, it might be an anachronism. Except that the Post was very isolated at the time and much criticised by both other media and the WH. The reporters had to fight for credibility for a long time before the dam burst.

What I think Trump has done, or is well on the way to doing, is undermining the credibility of the media as a whole and with it, the importance of a free press and what it is saying.

The WaPo might convince us lot, but it won't convince Trump's core constituency.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Well, it might be an anachronism. Except that the Post was very isolated at the time and much criticised by both other media and the WH. The reporters had to fight for credibility for a long time before the dam burst.

What I think Trump has done, or is well on the way to doing, is undermining the credibility of the media as a whole and with it, the importance of a free press and what it is saying.

The WaPo might convince us lot, but it won't convince Trump's core constituency.

But it's far too late for them. If they weren't already convinced of the phoniness of the "lamestream media," Trump would never have been elected in the first place.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Brenda Clough
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No, you can only do what you can do. Those who believe that the PG sits just below the Father and the Son will not be persuaded otherwise by any agency. The target must be those who are not the Kool-ade drinkers, who are not die-hards.

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Barnabas62
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An example of real fake news. Used by a Trump loyalist on Fox, then retracted. McCain had already expressed a willingness to investigate Russian mucking about with the election. Hannity's gaffe may have strengthened his resolve. And at his age he has little to lose by going for the truth.

mousethief, I doubt whether all of Trump's supporters are beyond recall, however successful media attacks have been so far with them.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Pangolin Guerre
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CNN now reporting that Trump will not attend the White House Correspondents' Dinner.

Bon appetit.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
No, you can only do what you can do. Those who believe that the PG sits just below the Father and the Son will not be persuaded otherwise by any agency. The target must be those who are not the Kool-ade drinkers, who are not die-hards.

You're missing my point. I don't think it's just about political affiliation. I think there are fewer and fewer people out there who are liable to be moved by facts at all.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Barnabas62
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For the time being, maybe. But that combination of ignorance and cynicism may have a shorter shelf life than you think. At least, I hope so.

[ 26. February 2017, 00:26: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Golden Key
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Penny--

quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
I looked on the Guardian (included, obviously, in the ban) and found he has stated "We are Americans and the future belongs to us."
My earworm is now the Lorelei, via "Tomorrow belongs to me".
What with America First, is he really ignorant of what he is echoing?

I've wondered about that, but was afraid I'd sound like "well, he's German, so he *must* be a Nazi sympathizer".

AIUI, his paternal grandparents came over from Germany, at a time when there was a lot of anti-German feeling. (Maybe during/after WWI?) So, probably at Ellis Island immigration station, he changed their name from Drumpf to Trump, and said they were Swedish. People often changed their names there. I'm not sure how common it was to hide nationality.

That would've been long before the Nazis were even formed, I think. But I wonder if maybe the grandfather held and passed down some bad attitudes, which were eventually passed down to T? Did T's dad pick up some pro-Nazi attitudes prior to WWII?

Grandpa Drumpf may well have been a decent guy who simply wanted to protect himself and his family from prejudice, and get a fresh start.

But a lot of people--German and otherwise--got sucked into Nazi ideology, at least before it was known how bad things had gotten. I can kind of see how an exiled camouflaged German, missing his country and maybe resentful, maybe having the common anti-Semitism of the time, might cross a line into supporting Nazis. Heck, aviator Charles Lindbergh was sympathetic, and I think his ancestry actually *was* Swedish.

Not excusing possible sympathizing with Nazis, but trying to figure out how it might have come about.

And, again, Grandpa Drumpf may well have been a decent guy, and not at all sympathetic.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:

AIUI, his paternal grandparents came over from Germany, at a time when there was a lot of anti-German feeling. (Maybe during/after WWI?) So, probably at Ellis Island immigration station, he changed their name from Drumpf to Trump, and said they were Swedish. People often changed their names there. I'm not sure how common it was to hide nationality.

fwiw, my great-grandfather came thru Ellis Island from Denmark in the years between WW1 & WW2, and was told that there that his name sounded "too German" and was advised to change it.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Golden Key
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cliffdweller--

Ah, thanks! I knew that people often altered or ditched Jewish names, but that's not a particular nationality.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Baptist Trainfan
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My parents arrived in Britain at the end of 1938; they didn't change their surname which is obviously German and rather less obviously Jewish.

Quite a few of their contemporaries did Anglicise their names; I suspect this was due (a) to avoid possible anti-German sentiment, (b) to distance themselves from the horrors of the country they'd left and identify with the one they were now living in, and (c) for pure simplicity - certainly I've had trouble all my life when giving my name over the phone etc.

Things may have been different in the US which has a different tradition of immigration.

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Augustine the Aleut
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I have several friends who, either arriving at Pier 21 in the first half of the lst century or the Ellis Island equivalent, had their names changed for them by immigration officers. One former colleague found out that his family name was actually the name of their home village in the Ukraine-- they misunderstood the officer's question and he, in turn, decided to give them a simplified version of the village's name.

Another friend, named Miller, found her grandfather's immigration form, which read Mueller, crossed out, and Miller written in beside it. And for those of us whose first paying job was the transcription of the 1851 Census for Augusta Township revelled in seeing the Schwerferger family name spelled six different ways among ten family members-- aghast at this, our supervisor noted that consistency was not a primary aspect of that period's documentary culture.

In other words, the Drumpf to Trump transition may have just been viewed by those involved as a minor editing matter to make life easier.

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Amanda B. Reckondwythe

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If they weren't already convinced of the phoniness of the "lamestream media," Trump would never have been elected in the first place.

If the lamestream media hadn't parroted "Trump, Trump, Trump" during every waking hour of the campaign, Trump would never have been elected in the first place.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If they weren't already convinced of the phoniness of the "lamestream media," Trump would never have been elected in the first place.

If the lamestream media hadn't parroted "Trump, Trump, Trump" during every waking hour of the campaign, Trump would never have been elected in the first place.
A lovely example of relative privation.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If they weren't already convinced of the phoniness of the "lamestream media," Trump would never have been elected in the first place.

If the lamestream media hadn't parroted "Trump, Trump, Trump" during every waking hour of the campaign, Trump would never have been elected in the first place.
A lovely example of relative privation.
You mean both statements, right?

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If they weren't already convinced of the phoniness of the "lamestream media," Trump would never have been elected in the first place.

If the lamestream media hadn't parroted "Trump, Trump, Trump" during every waking hour of the campaign, Trump would never have been elected in the first place.
A lovely example of relative privation.
You mean both statements, right?
No. Relative privation is a comparison of the "I know you are but what am I?" variety. My comparison is not of that variety. So, no. It may have other flaws. But you'll have to actually do your own work to find what those are (not being coy; I didn't design any flaws into it, but I admit I am not perfect).

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Relative privation is a comparison of the "I know you are but what am I?" variety.

from Wikipedia
quote:
Fallacy of relative privation
The fallacy of relative privation, or appeal to worse problems, is an informal fallacy which attempts to suggest that the opponent's argument should be ignored because there are more important problems in the world, despite the fact that these issues are often completely unrelated to the subject under discussion.

So, really, my comment was not spot on, but you appear to have used the wrong term.
Regardless, both what you say and what ABR say are correct.
Cognitive bias, combined with increasing polarization, means many will not trust news sources.
And the media gave Cheeto vast amounts of free publicity. Beyond covering what he said, they often functioned as free telecasts of the entirety of his events.
They really did function as a unit of his campaign.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

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Then I had misunderstood what "relative privation" means, and I was wrong. There. See if you'll get Donald Trump to admit that.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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simontoad
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Pursuant to advice received in this thread, I subscribed to The Wall Street Journal for US$2 until 24 April, auto-renewing thereafter at a whopping US$30 per month. Little did they know that I had a friend who might have subscribed to porn sites in the 90's, and that friend told me about all their little tricksies when he was drunk.

After perusing the website, I determined that the only way to cancel was to ring them, and they closed at 10pm eastern US. I quickly checked servertime on the computer game I was playing (which I knew to be US eastern) and determined that it was 9:15pm.

Like a duck diving for a fish, I grabbed my telephone between my powerful jaws and called the number. I cancelled that subscription like a pro, although I did have to modify my accent to get through the computer call-sorting at the start. It's lucky I'm not from Glasgow.

Don't try and tell me I'm not dancing to KC and the Sunshine Band right now.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Martin60
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Thanks Obama!

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Love wins

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Golden Key
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More fun:

"Barack Obama is organising a coup against Donald Trump, claims Google Home robot" (Yahoo).

Seems to be a programming error. But wow. How many people will believe it, just because it comes from their Google AI gadget?
[Paranoid]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Eutychus
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So is Trump about to fail in his attempt to repeal Obamacare - albeit for all the wrong reasons?

quote:
The bill needs 215 votes to pass but ran into opposition mainly from conservative Republicans who believed it did not roll back enough of Mr Obama's Affordable Care Act.
AIUI those conservative Republicans are in safer seats than their slightly more moderate counterparts.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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chris stiles
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
So is Trump about to fail in his attempt to repeal Obamacare - albeit for all the wrong reasons?

I think it may be oversimplifying it a little? Some of them are also uncomfortable with a bill that is essentially incomplete and leaves it up to the senate to revise it such that key bits of it work. If you have an inclination and/or a long car journey, the Weeds podcast (while partisan) gave a reasonable run down of some of the problems with it:

http://www.vox.com/2017/3/16/14944942/republican-health-plan-cbo-weeds

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Boogie

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This photo could have been taken in the 1950s [Frown]

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Doone
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
This photo could have been taken in the 1950s [Frown]

[Mad]
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Brenda Clough
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OK, this is so outre that I would have deemed it fiction. Except it's in the Washington POST: a white supremacist buys a derelict church building with plans to start the “President Donald J. Trump Creativity Church of Rome.”
The fellow is a known creep who has been trying to start a 'white enclave' in the Midwest for some time; local residents always drive him out. In this case someone torched the building before he could start worship services, and it burnt to the ground. What I would like to know is, how does Rome come into it?

[ 24. March 2017, 13:05: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Hedgehog

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# 14125

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What I would like to know is, how does Rome come into it?

Well, Caligula and all....

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
What I would like to know is, how does Rome come into it?

Well, Caligula and all....
The fire brings Nero to mind, although the Holy Spirit may have played a part.
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Og, King of Bashan

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Any wagers about a healthcare vote happening today?

The New York Times is reporting that Ryan just visited the White House to inform the President that the bill will not pass if a vote happens today.

So do they try to save face by not holing the vote? Vote anyway and declare political war on any Republican who votes no? I can honestly see Trump liking his chances with option two- nobody knows how to manage a long-burning personal feud like Donald Trump.

As someone said on a Facebook post, say what you will about Nancy Pelosi, the fact that she managed to wrangle enough votes to get Obamacare through was, in light of Ryan's struggles, a pretty monumental achievement.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

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Brenda Clough
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From the POST:
House Republican leaders abruptly pulled a Republican rewrite of the nation’s health-care system from consideration on Friday, a dramatic acknowledgment that they are so far unable to repeal the Affordable Care Act.

“We just pulled it,” President Trump told the Washington Post in a telephone interview.

Fantasy, meet reality. With a hard thump.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Hedgehog

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It will be interesting to see what happens next. In a bid to force House Republicans into line, Comrade Trump stated that the bill should go to vote and, in any event, he was done with negotiating it any further as he had other things he wanted to do. (Like, you know, spend more tax dollars having a weekend getaway at his place in Florida.)

Now that dodge by Trump was clearly his pet negotiating tactic that he always brags about: that he is always ready to walk away from a deal. That is why he considers himself a great negotiator--because he is always willing to quit, and that puts pressure on the other side to give in because they want the deal.

So he just tried this tactic with a bunch of politicians and it blew up in his face. It turns out that negotiating with politicians is not the same as negotiating with somebody who actually hopes to make a profit from a deal. Will he go back to negotiating (and send out his spokespuppets to spin everything so it doesn't look like he has backed down from his prior statement that he was "done" with negotiating it)? Or will he keep his word and not do any more, thus preserving (for the future) that he will in fact back out of a deal if people do not cooperate?

It looks to me like Comrade Trump, the Great Negotiator, is going to actually have to learn another trick. And so we'll learn if the self-described "very intelligent" man is just a one-trick pony.

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

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Brenda Clough
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He is now The Biggest Loser.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5198 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Og, King of Bashan

Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562

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It sounds like they are going to move on to other things. Paul Ryan just told assembled press that Obamacare will be the law of the land for the foreseeable future, as they move on to tax reform, the budget, and a continuing resolution to keep the government funded. (Wouldn't it be something if we got a Republican orchestrated shutdown while the GOP holds all of the cards? It's not entirely out of the question any more, I suppose.)

I think the GOP strategy on healthcare, until they can come up with something new, will be to try to pretend this never happened, and go back to telling everyone that Obamacare is becoming a bigger disaster every day. Ryan already made this point in his press conference, and Trump made the same point in a release.

It's much easier to run against a bill than to fix it.

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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy

Posts: 3084 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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Trump doesn't care about policy at all. He does care very much about his public image, though. His past practice when something like this happens is to walk away leaving someone else to pay the bills. I expect what we'll see is an attempt to shift blame on to Paul Ryan and the House Republicans (Ryan will be trying to shift blame to Trump at the same time), continued trash-talking about that horrible Negro who set up the ACA in the first place, and undermining Obamacare through executive branch mismanagement (also a Trump strong suit).

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10255 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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So Ryan apparently said this today
quote:
"We were an opposition party for ten years, now we have to govern and it's harder."
Just about sums up the Republican party right now. Very good at opposing - not very good at doing.


And I go back to the same thing that was obvious right from the inauguration: these guys are incompetent and that will kill almost everything they want to do.


******

Current Republican spin is the Democrats killed this bill. Sadly, this will likely play to the faithful who don't understand that the Republicans are in charge in both houses and in the executive.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5013 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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@Crœsos: mismanagement and cruelty are the only two things that we know for sure 45 is good at.

[ 24. March 2017, 20:27: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

Posts: 62804 | From: Ecotopia | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Sober Preacher's Kid

Presbymethegationalist
# 12699

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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Trump doesn't care about policy at all. He does care very much about his public image, though. His past practice when something like this happens is to walk away leaving someone else to pay the bills. I expect what we'll see is an attempt to shift blame on to Paul Ryan and the House Republicans (Ryan will be trying to shift blame to Trump at the same time), continued trash-talking about that horrible Negro who set up the ACA in the first place, and undermining Obamacare through executive branch mismanagement (also a Trump strong suit).

And if I lived on the other side of Lake Ontario than the one I do, I would breathe a huge (dare I say Hyoooge) sigh of relief about that.

I'm a Type I Diabetic. If I lived in New York State, I would have gotten down on my knees and thanked the Good Lord for Obamacare.

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NDP Federal Convention, Edmonton 2016: More Trots than the Calgary Stampede!

Posts: 7621 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged
W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250

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quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
It's much easier to run against a bill than to fix it.

I figure that the Tea Party caucus probably wanted to defeat the AHCA bill because they prefer to act as an opposition party and just complain about how bad Obamacare is and how great it would be if they could only replace it. As long as they get re-elected.

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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.

Posts: 1547 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008  |  IP: Logged
Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200

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quote:
Originally posted by W Hyatt:
quote:
Originally posted by Og, King of Bashan:
It's much easier to run against a bill than to fix it.

I figure that the Tea Party caucus probably wanted to defeat the AHCA bill because they prefer to act as an opposition party and just complain about how bad Obamacare is and how great it would be if they could only replace it. As long as they get re-elected.
To be fair, the way the Freedom caucus was going on, they seem to think they are there to represent ideals. Now whether those are ideals of their voting constituents or their financial contributors is open to question.

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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."

Posts: 5013 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by Hedgehog:
Now that dodge by Trump was clearly his pet negotiating tactic that he always brags about: that he is always ready to walk away from a deal. That is why he considers himself a great negotiator--because he is always willing to quit, and that puts pressure on the other side to give in because they want the deal.

So he just tried this tactic with a bunch of politicians and it blew up in his face. It turns out that negotiating with politicians is not the same as negotiating with somebody who actually hopes to make a profit from a deal.

This, absolutely. This article makes similar points.

I genuinely think he had no conception of what the job entailed when he started running. Time and again he shows that he doesn't understand the differences between a company and the public sector.

He's not alone in this - I've seen plenty of reports about running the public/civil service "like a business" that seem to ignore that the purpose of a business is utterly different - but he is a particularly spectacular example of misunderstanding the job description. He is not CEO of America, inc.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18017 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Sober Preacher's Kid:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Trump doesn't care about policy at all. He does care very much about his public image, though. His past practice when something like this happens is to walk away leaving someone else to pay the bills. I expect what we'll see is an attempt to shift blame on to Paul Ryan and the House Republicans (Ryan will be trying to shift blame to Trump at the same time), continued trash-talking about that horrible Negro who set up the ACA in the first place, and undermining Obamacare through executive branch mismanagement (also a Trump strong suit).

And if I lived on the other side of Lake Ontario than the one I do, I would breathe a huge (dare I say Hyoooge) sigh of relief about that.

Yes. Amid the predictable and well-deserved rejoicing among Democrats today, Sen. Pelosi said precisely that-- that her emotion was one of relief.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 10805 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530

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This fracas with this bill is a good example of the disfunction of congress in general (and more specifically of the GOP, and even more specifically of the GOP under Trump). If you are a GOP member of the House, by not voting for the bill you face the ire of a vindictive president, the threat of not getting donations passed down to you that were raised by Paul Ryan and other House and Party leaders, and opposition from Trump voters in your district who may oppose you in the upcoming Republican party primary election. By voting for the bill, you risk turning moderates and independents in your district against you by supporting a bill that was not likely to pass anyway - and you may also earn the opposition of some people who voted for Trump who turn against you, if not Trump also, when they lose their health insurance or can no longer afford it. You also risk losing the financial support (or losing the opportunity of future financial support) of activist groups like those supported by the billionaire Koch Brothers (who personally are pro-abortion rights and gay marriage but are libertarians who really really hate all government entitlement/welfare/benefit programs). The activist network set up by the Koch Brothers had announced that it would donate large sums of money to any GOP member that voted against this bill. (FYI the Koch Brothers did not donate any money to Trump but funneled huge amounts of money to making sure the Republicans kept both houses of Congress).
Posts: 1485 | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Host
# 9110

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Well, here's a howdydo!

I swear, if this was a fictional Presidency and this story line appeared it would be rejected as ludicrously implausible. But truth is stranger than fiction.

The attempt by the Deflector in Chief to draw attention away from the Russian connection has now blown up in his face. Nunes was briefed in the White House by WH officials so he could then go and brief Trump about what he learned from WH officials?! Poor Sean Spicer had a painful time handling that storyline today. 'You keep focusing on process but not substance' he said. Well, the process was pretty smelly! And the substance not so much.

But this is just for openers. Flynn has a story to tell and looks to be seeking immunity in order to tell it. About the Russian connection of course.

Shades of Watergate. Will Michael Flynn turn out to be a latter day John Dean? Will Nunes come clean about his role in the deflection. Will the Senate Intelligence Committee manage to avoid the politicisation which has poisoned the House Committee and the Nunes/Schiff show?

Curiouser and curiouser.

[ 31. March 2017, 01:41: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 20753 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
romanlion
editorial comment
# 10325

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The 80's are still calling...

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"You can't get rich in politics unless you're a crook" - Harry S. Truman

Posts: 1365 | From: White Rose City | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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That was a major development. The minor lunacy of the day was the revelation that VP Mike Pence will not meet alone with women, and will never attend a function that serves alcohol unless his wife is present. This has elicited solemn commentary and analysis, and a dissection of the theology behind the notion in addition to some solid gold comedy. Saturday Night Live is going to have a field day with this.

These are from the POST, but here is a blistering summary from a free site.

[ 31. March 2017, 02:59: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

Posts: 5198 | From: Washington DC | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
The attempt by the Deflector in Chief to draw attention away from the Russian connection has now blown up in his face. Nunes was briefed in the White House by WH officials so he could then go and brief Trump about what he learned from WH officials?! Poor Sean Spicer had a painful time handling that storyline today. 'You keep focusing on process but not substance' he said. Well, the process was pretty smelly! And the substance not so much.

Ah, the Cheney two-step. A Washington classic! Back during the run-up to the Iraq War, the Office of the Vice President would leak WMD intel (cooked to various degrees) to various media outlets. Then Dick Cheney would go on the various Sunday talking head shows and cite the reporting by the New York Times (or others) as 'independent' corroboration of his position and everyone would pretend not to know that he was, in essence, quoting himself.

I'd like to think the media has gotten savvy enough that they're not falling for this anymore, but in this case it just seems like gross incompetence on the part of Nunes and his White House sources.

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
But this is just for openers. Flynn has a story to tell and looks to be seeking immunity in order to tell it. About the Russian connection of course.

Shades of Watergate. Will Michael Flynn turn out to be a latter day John Dean?

The fact that Flynn is making the offer publicly through the press probably means he doesn't have anything really interesting to say.

quote:
As an experienced lawyer, [Flynn's attorney Robert] Kelner will know that the Justice Department would never grant immunity for testimony on these terms. Prosecutors would first require that Flynn submit to what’s called a proffer session in which Flynn would agree to tell everything he knows in exchange for the prosecutors agreeing not to use his statement against him. Only after the prosecutors heard what Flynn could offer in terms of evidence against others, and had an opportunity to assess his credibility, would they be willing to discuss any grants of immunity or a cooperation deal. At a minimum, the prosecutors would require Flynn’s lawyer to make a proffer outlining the information that Flynn could provide.

The fact that Flynn and his lawyer have made his offer publicly suggests that he has nothing good to give the prosecutors (either because he cannot incriminate others or is unwilling to do so). If he had something good, Flynn and his lawyer would approach the prosecutors quietly, go through the proffer process in confidence, and reach a deal. Why? Because prosecutors have an interest in keeping their investigation secret, and Flynn’s lawyer knows that. The last thing Flynn’s lawyer would do if he thought he had the goods would be to go public, because that would potentially compromise the criminal inquiry and would certainly irritate the prosecutors, the very people Flynn’s lawyer would be trying to win over.

I suspect that Flynn’s lawyer is really targeting Congress. He is hoping that one of the Congressional committees will take the bait and grant him immunity in exchange for his testimony. If that happened, it would be extremely difficult to prosecute Flynn after he testified. Remember Oliver North?



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Humani nil a me alienum puto

Posts: 10255 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472

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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
That was a major development. The minor lunacy of the day was the revelation that VP Mike Pence will not meet alone with women, and will never attend a function that serves alcohol unless his wife is present. This has elicited solemn commentary and analysis, and a dissection of the theology behind the notion in addition to some solid gold comedy. Saturday Night Live is going to have a field day with this.

These are from the POST, but here is a blistering summary from a free site.

During my days on the fringe of politics many many years ago, I knew several MPs who would not work late with a woman assistant, and would not meet with a woman with the doors closed. Only one of them ever discussed this in my presence, and he said that it was always best to keep things visibly professional-- it set a standard in his office in a setting where there was much crossing of boundaries (that very year, I saw 3 ministerial marriages collapse on account of close friendship with staff members).

An ancient and revered archdeacon of my acquaintance followed a similar practice of open doors for meetings with women, saying that he learned this during his first curacy (when George V was still on the throne and Bennett buggies roamed the prairie).

While evangelicals in the US have a rather high divorce rate, many of them put much focus on their family lives and VP Pence's approach is familiar to anyone who has dipped into the milieu in that country. Still, I'd rather be eaten by armadillos than vote for him, but that's another thread.

Posts: 6077 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
Hedgehog

Ship's Shortstop
# 14125

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Pence could solve the problem by following Trump's approach: just keep hiring relatives.

It reminds of a line from "The Senator Was Indiscreet" (1947). Sen. Ashton is defending his own integrity by noting "I have never put one man or woman on the public payroll who was not my own blood kin-or Mrs. Ashton's, anyway."

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"We must regain the conviction that we need one another, that we have a shared responsibility for others and the world, and that being good and decent are worth it."--Pope Francis, Laudato Si'

Posts: 2576 | From: Delaware, USA | Registered: Sep 2008  |  IP: Logged



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