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Source: (consider it) Thread: US election aftermath
rolyn
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Yep, Golden Key. I always had Gene Roddenberry down as a clairvoyant with some of his futuristic ideas. Him and woody Allen with 'Sleeper'.

I learnt last night just how big an influence Facebook News feeds, along with other Internet outlets, were in regard to the outcome of the presidential election. Trump exploited it to stunning effect, but then it still doesn't escape the fact that the feeling had to be there in the first place.

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quetzalcoatl
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Wow, the criticisms of Melania Trump are really ugly. Misogyny is still misogyny, even if you vote Democrat.

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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740

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I'm guessing that this is the thread that will continue?

Reading various bits of economic analysis - Clinton lost in the rust belt, because of free trade, and so forth. Trump wants to abolish free trade agreements, and put tariffs up against Chinese goods?

Wow, is this real? Then what?

Also, he is promising big spending on infrastructure - very Keynesian! Should I laugh or cry?

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Twilight

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# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Melania:

She should be treated decently, ISTM.

As should all women.
As should all men? I haven't noticed this board demanding that her husband be treated with respect.

I haven't seen the slightest indication from any source that she has been abused, but some are going to just assume that. Just as some are going to assume that nude modeling, and being the mistress of various men was her "only way out," as though she was living in poverty. She grew up in a middle class home and was attending college when she decided to go another, easier way. Why would anyone think she "powerless?" She is not a hillbilly wife living in the mountains with ten children no money and no literacy and no driver's license. She, like the two wives before her, could leave anytime with millions of dollars if she wanted to.

All the "poor Melanie, the victim" remarks above, starting with the assumption that she deserves to be treated with respect because of her gender, is just what I was talking about.

Women can not expect to have it both ways. We can't pretend that our husbands, or fathers, or society in general have forced us to use our bodies to make easy money if they have not. We can't blame every irresponsible choice on the men in our lives. We cannot expect to be treated with respect if we've not respected ourselves. We can not continue to claim powerlessness if we expect to ever be given powerful positions.

This double standard has to stop. We are either powerful, intelligent agents of our own lives, or we are helpless little ladies who need patronizing protection from the big bad men. We will never have a woman president if we keep pushing the latter.

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quetzalcoatl
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Wow, this is ugly stuff, the attacks on Melania. Nude modelling and various boy-friends, so she's a slut? Where are my Victorian smelling-salts?

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This double standard has to stop. We are either powerful, intelligent agents of our own lives, or we are helpless little ladies who need patronizing protection from the big bad men. We will never have a woman president if we keep pushing the latter.

All well and good, but no justification or need to call her a bimbo.

[ 11. November 2016, 11:22: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Stetson
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I'm guessing that this is the thread that will continue?

Reading various bits of economic analysis - Clinton lost in the rust belt, because of free trade, and so forth. Trump wants to abolish free trade agreements, and put tariffs up against Chinese goods?

Wow, is this real? Then what?

Also, he is promising big spending on infrastructure - very Keynesian! Should I laugh or cry?

He's basically posturing as an economic populist in the mode of Huey Long or Evita Peron(and I'm trying hard to avoid godwinning the list). I'm rather doubtful that he's gonna do anything signifcant in that direction, though.

I seem to recall Bush Jr. slapping a tariff on steel imports or something, and this being written up as an ideologically atypical appeal to the Rust Belt. Look for Trump to do a couple of similar things, but tweet a bunch of xenophobic slurs while doing so, to make sure his populist gesture stays in the news for a bit longer.

[ 11. November 2016, 11:32: Message edited by: Stetson ]

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Twilight

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To quetz,

Yes, dear. Taking off your clothes for money, posing nude lying alongside another woman, living with men who pay all your expenses. That's trading your body for money. That's pornography and prostitution. Just because she was born good looking enough to be a "mistress," rather than a street walker doesn't change anything, other than the street walker being deserving of pity while she could easily have had many other jobs. It's not a matter of smelling salts, it's a matter of doing work that does nothing to contribute to the world, work that doesn't use her mind but turns herself into an object. Is this what you think young women should aspire to? Not doctor or engineer or teacher, but pornography?

You call criticism of her misogyny. You're just revealing your own prejudice, evidently you think all women are right no matter what they do. It's okay to plagiarize another woman's speech. It's okay to express agreement with her husband's bigoted views of Muslims. It's all okay coming from her because she's a woman and to criticize her is misogyny. She has backed her husband every step of the way, particularly about illegal immigrants, always explaining that she is a legal immigrant.

This notion that she is not responsible for her views, but is just repeating what her husband says goes all the way back to the words of the men who thought women shouldn't have the vote because they would all just vote the way their husbands voted. The really ugly attitude coming from this thread is the one that says this 44 year-old woman is just an appendage of her husband with no mind or power of her own. The wedding ring on her finger is worth one and a half million. If she doesn't agree with the bigoted jerk she married she could walk any time she felt like it.

[ 11. November 2016, 11:47: Message edited by: Twilight ]

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fletcher christian

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I guess Britain can breath a sign of relief that it is now the second dumbest country in the room. I know lots who believe in their own little insular world will say that Brexit and Trump doesn't really have any noticeable effect on the rest of the world, but sadly they are wrong. We've now entered a new world where leaders can make all manner of crazy claims against their rivals and make all manner of rash promises to get into power. We've entered a political fog without knowing what direction we are travelling in but in the full awareness that the sea ahead is littered with rocks to flounder on and it's all being driven forward by this new approach. It is an approach that will happily tell bare faced lies to the electorate, make promises they know cannot be kept, make claims they know are not true in any respect, will happily use xenophobia, paranoia, racism, sexism and fear to grab power and control. Only this morning I saw the official Facebook page of a legitimate political party publish a photoshopped picture of a political rival in a compromising situation with the deliberate attempt of raising anger and frustration. This is a whole new era of politics; the politics of lies. I guess you could argue that the nonsense fed in the last twenty years has finally come back to bite us all in the ass, but I feel we are entering a very uncertain time and a deeply troubling future.

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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
To quetz,

Yes, dear. Taking off your clothes for money, posing nude lying alongside another woman, living with men who pay all your expenses. That's trading your body for money. That's pornography and prostitution. Just because she was born good looking enough to be a "mistress," rather than a street walker doesn't change anything, other than the street walker being deserving of pity while she could easily have had many other jobs. It's not a matter of smelling salts, it's a matter of doing work that does nothing to contribute to the world, work that doesn't use her mind but turns herself into an object. Is this what you think young women should aspire to? Not doctor or engineer or teacher, but pornography?

You call criticism of her misogyny. You're just revealing your own prejudice, evidently you think all women are right no matter what they do. It's okay to plagiarize another woman's speech. It's okay to express agreement with her husband's bigoted views of Muslims. It's all okay coming from her because she's a woman and to criticize her is misogyny. She has backed her husband every step of the way, particularly about illegal immigrants, always explaining that she is a legal immigrant.

This notion that she is not responsible for her views, but is just repeating what her husband says goes all the way back to the words of the men who thought women shouldn't have the vote because they would all just vote the way their husbands voted. The really ugly attitude coming from this thread is the one that says this 44 year-old woman is just an appendage of her husband with no mind or power of her own. The wedding ring on her finger is worth one and a half million. If she doesn't agree with the bigoted jerk she married she could walk any time she felt like it.

No, I don't think criticism of her is misogyny. I think slut-shaming is. Oh, and less of the 'dear'.

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quetzalcoatl
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Looking round the internet, loads of slut-shaming of Mrs Trump. I guess some of it is striking back at losing to Trump. And I guess Christians are old hands at it.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
[QB] To quetz,


This notion that she is not responsible for her views, but is just repeating what her husband says goes all the way back to the words of the men who thought women shouldn't have the vote because they would all just vote the way their husbands voted. The really ugly attitude coming from this thread is the one that says this 44 year-old woman is just an appendage of her husband with no mind or power of her own. The wedding ring on her finger is worth one and a half million. If she doesn't agree with the bigoted jerk she married she could walk any time she felt like it.

From where I'm sitting, I try to give people a chance before castigating them because of an association with someone else. We know what Trump is like because he's said it in public.

It is less clear what Melania is like because we haven't heard much from her. Her views may indeed be vapid and she may indeed be a mirror of Trump's own, but we simply don't know yet.

It is true that she's married to an arse. That, more-or-less, is all we know.

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quetzalcoatl
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I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

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mr cheesy
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Ahem. Sorry about that deleted post everyone, I forgot where I was posting.

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my new book: Biblical But Bollocks. Available in all good bookshops.

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quetzalcoatl
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Reminds me of a time when I used to go to a little Catholic church round the corner, anyway, a bunch of prostitutes started attending Mass. A group of women from the congregation complained to the priest, and asked him if he could divert them somewhere else. Well, the irony, the irony.

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Honestly, I loathe gendered insults, but in Mrs. Trump's case, what word would you use to describes a woman who has made a career and a life letting various people make use of her body and image?

Why are people here so quick to sit in judgement on Melania Trump? Maybe she just hasn't yet collected her alabaster jar
What has Melania Trump in common with this woman? Have you heard that she has begged Jesus for forgiveness? Has she washed his feet? Does she even believe in him? Do we even know what sort of sin the woman in the parable has committed? You might as well say that Donald Trump hasn't collected his alabaster jar, and ask why we sit in judgement of him.

We can't know what's in the heart of anyone, yet we criticize public figures based on what we know of them all the time. There's no reason why women should be exempt from this when men are not. Also criticism is not the same as "sitting in judgement." No one has called her evil or said she should burn in hell. I don't think she's an admirable woman and as such don't like to have her in such a prominent position for our children to look up to, that's all.

I know some Christians, particularly men and some pastors, have begun to see prostitution as an exalted occupation. Any woman in the Bible who is called sinful is assumed to be a prostitute, never a thief or idolater, and the desire to forgive her is extended to admiration of a kind. I think it's become sort of a sick and rather lascivious thing. The woman in the parable is humble, repentant and a believer. That's why we should try to be like her, not because she is (possibly) a prostitute.

Jesus forgave murderers, it doesn't mean it's a cool thing and we should admire them and never criticize them.

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Reminds me of a time when I used to go to a little Catholic church round the corner, anyway, a bunch of prostitutes started attending Mass. A group of women from the congregation complained to the priest, and asked him if he could divert them somewhere else. Well, the irony, the irony.

Has anyone here suggested Melania Trump should not go to church? How false your argument is getting.
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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Reminds me of a time when I used to go to a little Catholic church round the corner, anyway, a bunch of prostitutes started attending Mass. A group of women from the congregation complained to the priest, and asked him if he could divert them somewhere else. Well, the irony, the irony.

Has anyone here suggested Melania Trump should not go to church? How false your argument is getting.
No, no-one has suggested that, and I haven't suggested that they have. I was using an example of slut-shaming by Christians.

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Leorning Cniht
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# 17564

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

Is that necessarily true? Usually, slut-shaming is an example of the old traditional double-standard, but that's not what Twilight was saying.

If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Now, we have a rather larger supply of rich powerful old men than we do of equivalent women (because patriarchy), so it's easy to find examples of rich old men with trophy wives, but harder to find their female counterparts. IIRC, Madonna's had her share of young dancers, though - presumably Twilight feels the same about them as she does about Mrs. Trump?

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Interestingly when you have a woman in Melania Trump's situation (as defined by Twilight, anyway), she is blamed, as Twilight is blaming her.

On the other hand when you have the situation here described by Leorning Cniht, it's the woman who is blamed, not the young man.

Odd that?

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

Is that necessarily true? Usually, slut-shaming is an example of the old traditional double-standard, but that's not what Twilight was saying.

If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Now, we have a rather larger supply of rich powerful old men than we do of equivalent women (because patriarchy), so it's easy to find examples of rich old men with trophy wives, but harder to find their female counterparts. IIRC, Madonna's had her share of young dancers, though - presumably Twilight feels the same about them as she does about Mrs. Trump?

I would have thought that would be male slut-shaming, by which I mean, blaming the boy-friend of a richer older woman.

I don't see the difference, although as mousethief points out, it tends to be the woman who's blamed as the cougar, ball-breaker, cradle snatcher, etc.

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mousethief

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It's the woman's fault either way. Beautiful example of the Patriarchy in action.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Twilight

Puddleglum's sister
# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

No, it's an attack on her choice of occupation. Only you, in your last sentence have attacked whole people as, "shameful."
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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's the woman's fault either way. Beautiful example of the Patriarchy in action.

That's just what you said, no one else did.

If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children. I would like to see people who studied hard and got degrees for useful occupations rather than simply using their looks to make money. It's true that our society worships models and avidly follows the fashion industry. I don't think that's a good thing that we need to encourage. It values our outward appearance and wealth above anything else.

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Twilight

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# 2832

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Looking round the internet, loads of slut-shaming of Mrs Trump. I guess some of it is striking back at losing to Trump. And I guess Christians are old hands at it.

I can't imagine what sites you're using. I found nothing but glowing articles about her in all sorts of online newspapers and magazines. She's being compared to Jackie O and her poor beginnings are being written as an inspiring rags to riches story.

I think she's well on her way to becoming America's Princess Diana; beautiful, with very little to say, all she needs to do is lend her name to a few charities, show up for the occasional photo op holding a sick child, and she can become the beloved First Lady of our hearts.

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orfeo

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's the woman's fault either way. Beautiful example of the Patriarchy in action.

That's just what you said, no one else did.

If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children. I would like to see people who studied hard and got degrees for useful occupations rather than simply using their looks to make money. It's true that our society worships models and avidly follows the fashion industry. I don't think that's a good thing that we need to encourage. It values our outward appearance and wealth above anything else.

And I would like to focus on the person who actually runs for office. Why the hell should family members be relevant? Are there other jobs where you'd like to assess not just the skills and competence of the person occupying the position, but pass judgement on all their relatives?

That's regardless of the gender of the person occupying a job, but I'd particularly quite like to get rid of the idea that a woman is an appendage of her husband and must be taken into account when her husband is in a public position.

But I also don't give a damn if Hillary decided to divorce Bill and go for a Chippendale. "Spouse to the President" is not a job you will find in the constitution.

[ 11. November 2016, 14:30: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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David Goode
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children...

Did you want Hilary Clinton in the White House with that paragon of moral virtue, and role model for children everywhere, Bill?
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Brenda Clough
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The true thing is that probably nothing Mrs. Trump says or does is by her own will or choice. Certainly every speech she gives or action she takes is controlled tightly by her husband. (There was a picture of them, voting on Tuesday, that shows you what I mean.) She probably had little choice but to marry him (nude modeling is not a career that you can carry into your fifties) and being a model is what you do when you are lovely but haven't any acting talent. She did what she could to stay alive and to get out of Slovenia. We will probably never learn her true feelings or nature; they are well-hidden now for her own safety and in future she is probably bound by prenups that will gag any true confessions. If I were her I would write novels, and publish them under a closely-held pen name.

In the meantime over at the POST columnist Richard Cohen summarizes what Trump will have to do, to unite the country. My fellow genre writers agree that this could be a candidate for one of our short-fiction awards; it is fantasy and will never happen.

And John Pavlovitz calls upon pastors everywhere to speak as Christ to their Trumpery congregations. This is excellent and is a free click. I am informed that about 80 percent of evangelical Christians voted for the pussy grabber. I may have to join the Unitarians.

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mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
Did you want Hilary Clinton in the White House with that paragon of moral virtue, and role model for children everywhere, Bill?

Let's see. Trump is a racist, xenophobic, sexist, cheating, sexually assaulting, KKK-enabling, philandering, thrice-married homophobic business failure with no government experience.

Hillary used an illicit email account, is married to a philanderer, and has spent her life in public service.

How can I decide? They're exactly the same.

[ 11. November 2016, 14:52: Message edited by: mousethief ]

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
The true thing is that probably nothing Mrs. Trump says or does is by her own will or choice. Certainly every speech she gives or action she takes is controlled tightly by her husband. (There was a picture of them, voting on Tuesday, that shows you what I mean.) She probably had little choice but to marry him (nude modeling is not a career that you can carry into your fifties) and being a model is what you do when you are lovely but haven't any acting talent. She did what she could to stay alive and to get out of Slovenia. We will probably never learn her true feelings or nature; they are well-hidden now for her own safety and in future she is probably bound by prenups that will gag any true confessions. If I were her I would write novels, and publish them under a closely-held pen name.

In the meantime over at the POST columnist Richard Cohen summarizes what Trump will have to do, to unite the country. My fellow genre writers agree that this could be a candidate for one of our short-fiction awards; it is fantasy and will never happen.

And John Pavlovitz calls upon pastors everywhere to speak as Christ to their Trumpery congregations. This is excellent and is a free click. I am informed that about 80 percent of evangelical Christians voted for the pussy grabber. I may have to join the Unitarians.

Well, I can see that you are not slut-shaming her, Chthulu be praised, but I'm curious how you know that 'nothing Mrs Trump says or does is by her own will or choice'. Do you really mean nothing? 'Every action she takes is controlled tightly' - really?

You must have some amazing access to her private life, at any rate.

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no path

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
And I would like to focus on the person who actually runs for office. Why the hell should family members be relevant? Are there other jobs where you'd like to assess not just the skills and competence of the person occupying the position, but pass judgement on all their relatives?

That's regardless of the gender of the person occupying a job, but I'd particularly quite like to get rid of the idea that a woman is an appendage of her husband and must be taken into account when her husband is in a public position.

But I also don't give a damn if Hillary decided to divorce Bill and go for a Chippendale. "Spouse to the President" is not a job you will find in the constitution.

This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife. Our first lady is the closest we have to a queen or princess. All of our first ladies have been highly visible, some like Pat Nixon have been more retiring than a Jackie O, but still watched by the country and given great respect and attention to everything she says. She doesn't need to be an appendage of her husband and she may work on issues that he has little interest in.
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That photo of Trump leaning over his wife in the voting booth does not represent their marriage. The obvious thing is that he is helping her figure out the format and wording on issues which are hard enough for people who have English as their first language -- see "hanging chads and Florida's across-the-seam voting booklet," as examples. Our local issues are always written in convoluted double negative language that seems purposely meant to get the opposite answer as intended.

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's the woman's fault either way. Beautiful example of the Patriarchy in action.

That's just what you said, no one else did.

If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children. I would like to see people who studied hard and got degrees for useful occupations rather than simply using their looks to make money. It's true that our society worships models and avidly follows the fashion industry. I don't think that's a good thing that we need to encourage. It values our outward appearance and wealth above anything else.

And I would like to focus on the person who actually runs for office. Why the hell should family members be relevant? Are there other jobs where you'd like to assess not just the skills and competence of the person occupying the position, but pass judgement on all their relatives?

That's regardless of the gender of the person occupying a job, but I'd particularly quite like to get rid of the idea that a woman is an appendage of her husband and must be taken into account when her husband is in a public position.

But I also don't give a damn if Hillary decided to divorce Bill and go for a Chippendale. "Spouse to the President" is not a job you will find in the constitution.

All of this. Especially in light of the fact that most of us were very protective of Hillary's right to be judged as a candidate apart from whatever her boob of a husband did.

Why are we even talking about Melania?

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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quetzalcoatl
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Because she is a slut, obviously.

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no path

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Twilight

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Why talk about her? Because this is a thread about the aftermath of the election and part of that aftermath is when the new first family takes over the White House.

I wonder how often the "Why are we even talking about her?" crowd has talked about Michelle Obama, praising her and expressing gratitude that we have such a classy, intelligent woman in that position?

[ 11. November 2016, 15:20: Message edited by: Twilight ]

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Kelly Alves

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That was because Michelle Obama actually got out there and made herself a prescence. She gave us plenty of material to coment on. When Melania does the same, then we can judge her by her actions just as we did Michelle.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Is the whole concept of 'first lady' sexist?

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by David Goode:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children...

Did you want Hilary Clinton in the White House with that paragon of moral virtue, and role model for children everywhere, Bill?
Bill Clinton was a Rhodes scholar who worked his way up in politics to become one of our best presidents ever. He created millions of new jobs, was great for our economy, improved international relations, increased college attendance, gave the military its highest raises ever, to name a few accomplishments. I think he was a fine role model.
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Kelly Alves

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It's kind of like "pastor's wife."

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Looking round the internet, loads of slut-shaming of Mrs Trump. I guess some of it is striking back at losing to Trump. And I guess Christians are old hands at it.

Here is a Christian who is saying decidedly the opposite. Please avoid the big brush, would you?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Twilight

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No, that would be "president's wife." What's insulting about "First," anything? Bill was hoping to be called, "First Gentleman."

It's like the plagiarism thing never even happened.

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Nick Tamen

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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

Depends on the church. In African American churches, the pastor's wife is often called "the First Lady," and does hold a unique—and some might say exalted—position in the congregation, comparable to that of the First Lady of the US or of a state.

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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's kind of like "pastor's wife."

Thanks. Good clarification.

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

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Kelly Alves

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And, just like the FL, people will try to get at her husband by attacking her.

By the way, didn't all kinds of ugly people crawl out of the woodwork and carp on Michelle's muscular arms and the darkness of her skin and her sturdy physique when she came on the scene?

If you don't remember, it was pretty godawful.

[ 11. November 2016, 15:49: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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quetzalcoatl
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Wait till they start on Ivanka. She could become President as well.

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no path

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:

If Hillary Clinton's husband was a Chippendale dancer I would be just as disappointed and critical of him and for the same reasons. I want us to have a couple in the White House where both can be admired and copied by our children.

Twilight, and here's your mistake. Melania Trump was not elected. Mr. Clinton would not have been elected if the election had gone the other way. The spouse of a president is not elected. The presidency is not that person's job. Setting a good example is not that person's job except in so far as it's the job of any adult human being. For all the waffly yiffle yaffle about FLOTUS and potential FGOTUS positions, these are not elected or chosen positions. Nor are they compensated, to the best of my knowledge, though they may be supported with staff, budgets, etc. since the rest of the world stubbornly insists on thinking that marriage to a leader = being a leader oneself, and it would be plain crappy to abandon a presidential spouse to cope with those expectations with no support whatsoever.

If you fall into a job-not-real-job through no choice of your own, you ought not be blamed for any past behavior that censorious persons think makes you unfit to have that job. You didn't ask for it, and you could not reasonably foresee you were going to wind up in it.

It is, in short, the old pastor's wife dilemma.

Melania freely chose one position: that of life as the Orange One's wife. She did not choose the FLOTUS position. I doubt TOO ever mentioned it when he discussed getting married. She has fallen into that position, just as women have done since George Washington's day, and now must make the best of it. And it's going to be very sucky doing so with the kind of past she has. Why do you insist on making things worse?

And don't say "Oh, but she could walk away." Yes, she could--at the cost of her marriage. She has a child. Presumably she has concerns for his relationship with his father. Do you still think it so easy to walk away?

Personally you couldn't pay me to live with TOO. But she has made a different decision, and it's foolish to expect her to ditch him simply because his new position comes with FLOTUS burdens for her. And for you to bitch at her for not having an appropriate past for the FLOTUS position--tell me, just exactly how is she to go back in time and rectify that problem?

Now if she continues to behave in those ways, have at her, by all means. Not because she is an elected official (she still won't be) or chose her job (she still won't have done so) but for general foolishness and lack of prudence and charity when suddenly placed in the public eye.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Lamb Chopped
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
It's kind of like "pastor's wife."

Ha.

Great minds...

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Kelly Alves

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Looking round the internet, loads of slut-shaming of Mrs Trump. I guess some of it is striking back at losing to Trump. And I guess Christians are old hands at it.

Here is a Christian who is saying decidedly the opposite. Please avoid the big brush, would you?
... So is that clear yet, quetz? [Big Grin]

Btw, LC, spot on.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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quetzalcoatl
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Yes, ma'am, clear as fucking mud.

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no path

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Kelly Alves

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Ok, what do you think of LC's actual post? Because I though it was brilliant and I agree with every word.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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quetzalcoatl
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Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.

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no path

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