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Source: (consider it) Thread: US election aftermath
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Here's a not too nice reminder that the present divisions in the polity of the United States is situation normal, and why folk music is due for a massive comeback.

Phil Ochs: Here's to the State of Mississippi

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Barnabas62
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# 9110

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Thanks! That song had passed me by, which I regret after hearing it.

You're right about the potential power of folk music. Some of the 60s songs have, rightly, become iconic, immortal, for the truths they reveal and proclaim.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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OMG! A photo of my signs is in the New York Times!

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Barnabas62
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... and the Wall came tumbling down ..

Even before it was built. Budget reality bites. Anti-free trade deals next?

He should have listened. I suppose he is going to have to start listening now.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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mousethief

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# 953

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The Great Negotiator caves.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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yeah, I dunno about the whole listening thing. I think Trump is more into the scapegoat and denial thing.

Do you think the Russian inquiry has run its course in the media? That would be a pity. I was really enjoying it. I did hear that Sally Yates was going to testify as to why Flynn got canned.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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It may be gone in the media, but it's not gone. All they need is the House to flip.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by simontoad:
Do you think the Russian inquiry has run its course in the media?

Not really. Every couple of days there's something new. As this tweet notes, various Trump-friendly media outlets seem to be preparing an Iran-Contra style defense. ("The president never knew what was going on under his nose.")

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Golden Key
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# 1468

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"Exclusive: Trump says he thought being president would be easier than his old life" (Yahoo).

Among other things, he's still fussing about the election. And I heard that he spends most of his evenings alone, and can't really cope with that.

And Thursday's Stephen Colbert show monologue said, among other things, "maybe we can put a letter of resignation in front of him to sign". There was a film clip of T saying that "sometimes I look at what I'm signing".

IME, Stephen makes coping at least possible, for me.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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Colbert is wonderful. I loathe the format, so just watch clips of him on you tube. His Trent Brockman is more memorable to me than the guy he's parodying. It is independently funny.

Incidentally, we have a right wing nutjob radio host called Alan Jones. Is it something about the name, or are there just so many of the bastards that it becomes a percentages thing?

I saw a great Trump impersonator on The Daily Show the other day. He has really nailed the impression, so much so that he was getting heckled by some people at the Tax Rally where he appeared.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Crœsos
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# 238

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Here's an interesting analysis on the effect of voter ID laws (summary, longer version). The basic conclusion is that states with strict voter ID laws saw their voter participation fall while states without such laws saw their voter participation increase. The effect seems to preferentially effect the poor, the young, and particularly African-Americans.

The analysis estimates that the effect of voter ID laws in Wisconsin were enough to shift the outcome of that state in the 2016 presidential election. (Flipping Wisconsin would not have been enough to reverse the result of the election as a whole.) Given that suppressing the vote in this way seems to work for them, you can see why Republicans are so enthusiastic about such laws.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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This may be a question of context, but from this side of the pond voter ID looks eminently sensible in terms of defending against the accusation of voter fraud.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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chris stiles
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# 12641

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This may be a question of context, but from this side of the pond voter ID looks eminently sensible in terms of defending against the accusation of voter fraud.

I think it can be fine in a relatively equal society where the ID itself is free, and relatively easy to get even if one lives a peripatetic lifestyle.

The problem is the rest of the context, where it isn't free, where polling stations are few and far between (especially in minority areas), and where this means that queues are such that it takes a disproportionate amount of the day of a time-poor individual.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
This may be a question of context, but from this side of the pond voter ID looks eminently sensible in terms of defending against the accusation of voter fraud.

In theory, yes. But a lot of it hinges on application. The U.S. has no national identity cards for its citizens. Most don't even possess passports. So the patchwork system of proof-of-identity that's grown up over the years has a lot of holes in it and most states where this kind of law has been enacted have been . . . let's say "suspiciously particular" about what forms of identity verification they'll accept as valid (e.g. state-issued hunting licenses or gun permits, but not state-issued student IDs). Others are more obvious about it, like Alabama passing a voter ID law and then attempting to close down most of the DMVs in the predominantly black parts of the state. The idea is similar to the newer tactics of abortion opponents; not an outright ban but throwing up enough bureaucratic hurdles it shaves off enough votes at the margin to tip things the 'right' way. If you have to make a 100 mile round trip to get an ID there's going to be a certain percentage of people who either can't or won't make the trip.

And the other issue is that this seems to be a solution in search of a problem. In-person voter impersonation fraud is vanishingly rare in the U.S. The most common form of election fraud in the U.S. (not particularly common, but a lot more common than in-person voter impersonation) is shenanigans by whoever controls the ballot box (or modern electronic equivalent) and counts the votes. This type of election fraud would not be prevented by voter ID laws. The next most common (but a lot less common than ballot-box tampering) is remote voter impersonation, usually where someone fills out a mail-in ballot in someone else's name. Since mail-in ballots usually go through the ordinary U.S. Post, which does not require ID, this type of election fraud would also not be prevented by voter ID laws. The least common type of election fraud in the U.S. (as best we can gauge these things) is in-person voter impersonation, where someone shows up at a polling station and fraudulently claims to be someone else.

In other words, a lot more legislative energy and bureaucratic fuss is being expended than can be reasonably explained by the scope of the problem of letting a senior citizen identify themselves with an expired driver's license (because they don't drive any more).

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The problem is the rest of the context, where it isn't free, where polling stations are few and far between (especially in minority areas), and where this means that queues are such that it takes a disproportionate amount of the day of a time-poor individual.

This is the other problem with voter ID laws; adding an extra 30-60 seconds per voter for an ID check to gum up the works of an already under-staffed voting process. A lot of American voters don't have an extra 3 hours to take out of their day to wait in line. Having to arrange a baby sitter and time off of work to vote is going to shave off another few percentage points of eligible voters.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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It seems to me that the location/density of polling stations is a separate issue to voter ID.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
It seems to me that the location/density of polling stations is a separate issue to voter ID.

Not necessarily. Adding an additional pointless check to the voting process will cause a slight delay in voting times for well-staffed polling stations serving relatively few voters, but polling stations expected to serve more will end up with significant back-ups. The point of deliberately setting up multiple bureaucratic hurdles isn't that any one of them is insurmountable, but that they accumulate into a true disaster in the right circumstances.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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Each hurdle in the series is a separate issue. On the face of it, organising access to polling stations is less contentious than voter ID, and enlisting more volunteers less contentious than either.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Brenda Clough
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In the US voter ID and registration has historically been a way to keep persons of color from voting. It just sounds better to denounce voter fraud than it is to say that black people shouldn't be allowed at the polls.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
Each hurdle in the series is a separate issue. On the face of it, organising access to polling stations is less contentious than voter ID, and enlisting more volunteers less contentious than either.

Given that voter ID laws are about "access to polling stations", I don't see how they're separate issues. You might just as well argue that DMV closures have nothing to do with voter ID requirements either.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Eutychus
From the edge
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I have no doubt that this variation on gerrymandering is alive and well, but access to polling stations in terms of being within a reasonable distance of one and not queue for an inordinate amount of time at it is a separate (although related) question to that of what if any form of ID one is required to produce.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I have no doubt that this variation on gerrymandering is alive and well, but access to polling stations in terms of being within a reasonable distance of one and not queue for an inordinate amount of time at it is a separate (although related) question to that of what if any form of ID one is required to produce.

"Just go get your ID" is the same bullshit to people who do not have a car or time and/or in areas which public transport is infrequent or absent.
The intent is to disenfranchise minorities.

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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OK. I guess this is one of those times when as a European I forget that the USA is essentially a loose coalition of independent states, but it still blows my mind that for a national election, the same procedures do not apply everywhere.

A cursory search suggests that the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Article 21
quote:
"The will of the people shall be the basis of the authority of government; this will shall be expressed in periodic and genuine elections which shall be by universal and equal suffrage and shall be held by secret ballot or by equivalent free voting procedures."
is, apparently, reflected in the 15th, 19th, 23rd, 24th, and 26th Amendments to the US Constitution (not that I have looked to see precisely what those say).

What's the mileage in bringing a case on the grounds of non-universal, unequal suffrage up through the courts?

[ 09. May 2017, 21:26: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:

This is the other problem with voter ID laws; adding an extra 30-60 seconds per voter for an ID check to gum up the works of an already under-staffed voting process. A lot of American voters don't have an extra 3 hours to take out of their day to wait in line. Having to arrange a baby sitter and time off of work to vote is going to shave off another few percentage points of eligible voters.

Which is why, for us, Saturday voting is an essential part of the process and has been for well over 100 years. In those days, few people worked on Saturdays - farmers milked, people drove trains, shops were open - but factory and office workers and their wives* could attend the booths. One would stay outside with the children while the other voted, then swap roles.

*That's how it largely was then.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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Over at Esquire, the great Charles Pierce discusses voter suppression in his inimitable style.

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
What's the mileage in bringing a case on the grounds of non-universal, unequal suffrage up through the courts?

Some, apparently.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

Posts: 16985 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged



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