Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

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Depends on the church. In African American churches, the pastor's wife is often called "the First Lady," and does hold a unique—and some might say exalted—position in the congregation, comparable to that of the First Lady of the US or of a state.

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Speaking as a pastor's wife, this is widespread across the U.S. (though I might drop the "exalted" bit. Generally speaking the pastor's wife is expected to be second pastor and all-round bottle-washer-in-chief, and all feel free to criticize her for any reason. Rather like Melania Trump, in fact.
)

There are actually study groups and books made available to future clergy spouses during their spouses' seminary days that aim to prepare us for this reality. And my denomination has set up a kind of mentoring system for pastors' wives, at least within my own district (haven't looked into others).

Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
Far elsewhere on the internet someone has a grand idea: If this happens, we all register as Muslims. I think I will do this.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

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Depends on the church. In African American churches, the pastor's wife is often called "the First Lady," and does hold a unique—and some might say exalted—position in the congregation, comparable to that of the First Lady of the US or of a state.

---

Speaking as a pastor's wife, this is widespread across the U.S. (though I might drop the "exalted" bit. Generally speaking the pastor's wife is expected to be second pastor and all-round bottle-washer-in-chief, and all feel free to criticize her for any reason. Rather like Melania Trump, in fact.
)

There are actually study groups and books made available to future clergy spouses during their spouses' seminary days that aim to prepare us for this reality. And my denomination has set up a kind of mentoring system for pastors' wives, at least within my own district (haven't looked into others).

Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
Far elsewhere on the internet someone has a grand idea: If this happens, we all register as Muslims. I think I will do this.

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I must say this is a great temptation.

I have an ethical problem, though, with claiming another religion. Will it do if I say nothing verbally but just show up in a hijab?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:
This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.
Far elsewhere on the internet someone has a grand idea: If this happens, we all register as Muslims. I think I will do this.

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I must say this is a great temptation.

I have an ethical problem, though, with claiming another religion. Will it do if I say nothing verbally but just show up in a hijab?

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I am sure you could also show up with some useful and apposite sign. Quoting Jesus, perhaps. A guy notorious for loving strangers.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by M.:
Tangent. Lamb Chopped, why don't people just refuse to accept the role of 'pastor's wife'? It's what I did. I have never had a calling to ministry and have a career. I made it quite clear to churches before Macarius was appointed that I didn't accept the 'two for one' expectation.

End of tangent.
M.

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Many of us do. But it takes a damn strong-minded woman to do so. Which leads us nicely back to the question of whether Melania could handle doing that.

Some of us have no problems with sliding into the expectations, spotless house and perfect childen all included.

Some of us firmly inform the congregation that we are going to another church and they should not expect to ever see our faces.

Some of us try to pick and choose based on our own particular gifts and interests.

Some of us are fortunate enough to be missionaries in a field where there have been no pastors' wives, and we get to write our own stereotype.
The one I'm writing includes getting a PhD, tutoring teenagers, and doing an ungodly amount of bureaucratic paperwork for people with no English . God help the woman who comes after me.

--------------------
Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posted                       

quote:

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This is behind the paywall, but the headline says it all: Trump says he absolutely wants to register Muslims.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

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Is that necessarily true? Usually, slut-shaming is an example of the old traditional double-standard, but that's not what Twilight was saying.

If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Now, we have a rather larger supply of rich powerful old men than we do of equivalent women (because patriarchy), so it's easy to find examples of rich old men with trophy wives, but harder to find their female counterparts. IIRC, Madonna's had her share of young dancers, though - presumably Twilight feels the same about them as she does about Mrs. Trump?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef. That doesn't mean I think all Christians do it, especially on a forum like this. See my story about prostitutes at Mass.

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Oh bullshit. We had prisoners and --well, not quite prostitutes, because she didn't take money, but in every other way-- as members of our church, and nobody batted an eye. That is, until a handful of people left the faith and promptly developed goody-two-shoe-ism.

Our host congregation, too, includes the kind of people most would pillory.

I have never personally met a Christian congregation that made assholes of themselves this way. No doubt they must exist--you seem to have met them--but I see them only in news headlines, which frankly gives me some doubt.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
There are in fact Muslim-identifying "followers of Isa." They are Christian by any reasonable standard, but cling to the old name.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good. But surely slut-shaming goes with Christianity as Yorkshire pudding goes with roast beef.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Clever dodge.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by gorpo:

quote:

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Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I think she has said things that can be criticized, echoing Trump's views on immigration, for example. But slut-shaming is different, that's an attack on her as a woman. Shameful.

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Is that necessarily true? Usually, slut-shaming is an example of the old traditional double-standard, but that's not what Twilight was saying.

If Twilight holds the same opinion about attractive young men who are kept as toyboys by rich powerful old women, that would be consistent with her attacks on Melania Trump, and nothing to do with "attacking her as a woman".

Now, we have a rather larger supply of rich powerful old men than we do of equivalent women (because patriarchy), so it's easy to find examples of rich old men with trophy wives, but harder to find their female counterparts. IIRC, Madonna's had her share of young dancers, though - presumably Twilight feels the same about them as she does about Mrs. Trump?

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And probably he/she thinks the same about Hilary Clinton, for being married to an abuser and cheater, but still keeping the marriage to increase her popularity?

Or is the indignation selective?

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Posted                      

quote:

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To me, selling your body, for sex or photographs equals slut.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Stetson:
Twilight wrote:

quote:

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To me, selling your body, for sex or photographs equals slut.

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Twilight, I know that you claim to be even-handed in your criticism of both genders for selling their physical attributes(eg. Chippendales dancers as well as Playboy centrefolds), and I can give you the benefit of the doubt on that.

But if that is true, I would politely advise you against using the word "slut" to describe people in those occupations. In my experience, that word is closely linked to condemnation of supposedly immoral WOMEN.

So using that word is pretty much asking to be misunderstood.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
That photo of Trump leaning over his wife in the voting booth does not represent their marriage.

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quote:

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The obvious thing is that he is helping her figure out the format and wording...

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Brenda Clough:

Here's different aftermath: the effect on the evangelical movement. They are accused of hypocrisy; it's hard to see how for some church leaders it's not true.

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Posted                         

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There is such a deep divide on this-- breaking primarily, but sadly not surprisingly, along both racial and generational lines-- it's hard to even see us as being in the same tent anymore.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

The bright side I think is this crystallization of left wing evangelicalism. For most of my life I've felt very much alone in this. I can remember of course election cycles when I was celebrating a Dem win and cycles when I was mourning a tragic loss, but always I felt alone. A few lone leaders of the lefty movement but always marginazlied. That has shifted over the last few years, but I hadn't realized quite how much until Wed. of this week. I saw my facebook feed full with messages-- beautiful, heartbreaking messages from members of my own evangelical church-- mourning the loss and vowing to stand with our African American, Hispanic, GLBTQ, and Muslim neighbors. Forming action plans. For the first time, I feel a part of a community, and not just on the Ship (altho that's pretty awesome too. But it's always nice to have someone to go out for a beer with who's feeling what you're feeling-- as I did yesterday).

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Barnabas62:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:

The bright side I think is this crystallization of left wing evangelicalism. For most of my life I've felt very much alone in this. I can remember of course election cycles when I was celebrating a Dem win and cycles when I was mourning a tragic loss, but always I felt alone. A few lone leaders of the lefty movement but always marginazlied. That has shifted over the last few years, but I hadn't realized quite how much until Wed. of this week. I saw my facebook feed full with messages-- beautiful, heartbreaking messages from members of my own evangelical church-- mourning the loss and vowing to stand with our African American, Hispanic, GLBTQ, and Muslim neighbors. Forming action plans. For the first time, I feel a part of a community, and not just on the Ship (altho that's pretty awesome too. But it's always nice to have someone to go out for a beer with who's feeling what you're feeling-- as I did yesterday).

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From the other side of the pond ...

cliffdweller, I think it's been much harder for you than for me, and for others of my friends. There isn't this direct political connection in the UK, though if it begins to harden over here, I'll ditch the evangelical identification on the grounds that the word has collected too much baggage. (I think that is what Tony Campolo has felt compelled to do).

It's a great shame, but maybe some kind of realignment is necessary now?

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Eutychus:

quote:

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Originally posted by cliffdweller:
There is such a deep divide on this-- breaking primarily, but sadly not surprisingly, along both racial and generational lines-- it's hard to even see us as being in the same tent anymore.

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But if one simply accepts this, it seems to me it's handing Trump and his ilk more ammunition for their tactic of division, and retreating still further into an echo chamber.

We can disagree about lots of things, but it seems so important to me to keep conversations going across seemingly unbridgeable divides. I think this is the real, and really countrer-cultural, challenge.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Kelly - Hester Prynne? (The Scarlet Letter).

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Teekeey Misha:

quote:

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Originally posted by Twilight:
That photo of Trump leaning over his wife in the voting booth does not represent their marriage.

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How do you know?

quote:

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The obvious thing is that he is helping her figure out the format and wording...

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Why is it "the obvious thing"? It strikes me that "the obvious thing" is that the photographer happened to catch the one fraction of a second when he was looking that way; the next most obvious thing is that he's having a sneaky peek at her vote. "Helping her figure out" anything is not only the least "obvious thing", it's so far from "the obvious thing" that it's invisibly, vaguely, obscurely inconspicuously doubtful.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:

quote:

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Originally posted by Nick Tamen:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Twilight:
This is a unique position, it's not like the wife of a CEO or the pastor's wife.

---

Depends on the church. In African American churches, the pastor's wife is often called "the First Lady," and does hold a unique—and some might say exalted—position in the congregation, comparable to that of the First Lady of the US or of a state.

---

Speaking as a pastor's wife, this is widespread across the U.S. (though I might drop the "exalted" bit. Generally speaking the pastor's wife is expected to be second pastor and all-round bottle-washer-in-chief, and all feel free to criticize her for any reason. Rather like Melania Trump, in fact.
)

There are actually study groups and books made available to future clergy spouses during their spouses' seminary days that aim to prepare us for this reality. And my denomination has set up a kind of mentoring system for pastors' wives, at least within my own district (haven't looked into others).

Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

---

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by John Holding:

quote:

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Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Not because we hold an official position in any way, which would be hugely frowned on in a denomination that requires an official Call before you take leadership. Rather because they know darn well that people WILL impose these expectations on you and they don't want to see us fall apart under the burden of them.

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WHat about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.) [/QB]

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by John Holding:
WHat about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.)

John

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
The Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod does not ordain women, something a lot more sexist than condemning Melania Trump for selling herself. It is also homophobic.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Just a question from a Canadian:

What is different about voter registration in the United States than in Canada? Here in Canada, I registered as a voter on voting day at my first election by bringing 2 pieces of ID. Even if I didn't have any ID, as long as I had someone with 2 pieces of ID to vouch for me, I could be registered. It was pretty simple and straight forward.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by John Holding:
What about pastors' husbands? (in whichever of the two ways a man could be the husband of a pastor.)

John

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by gorpo:
And probably he/she thinks the same about Hilary Clinton, for being married to an abuser and cheater, but still keeping the marriage to increase her popularity?

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