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Source: (consider it) Thread: "Love your enemy"
Lyda*Rose

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# 4544

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Okay, this whole Trump situation now has Christians where the rubber meets the road. How do you "love your enemy" without seeming to embrace their opinions or policies? Most of us liberal Christians have treated with scorn the concept of "love the sinner, hate the sim" especially on Dead Horse subjects. Now it bites us in the butt, because that is what it seems Jesus might really want us to do. In what way could I effectively love Donald Trump and his minions? Through prayer alone? Or should I consider such the policy of loving the individuals in the new ad ministration as something to try only when "all things are made new"? [Help]

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Brenda Clough
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If Trump showed up at my doorstep hungry I would feed him. If he were naked, I might knit him a sweater (can't promise him his choice of color). There's not a stitch of clothing in the house that will fit an obese man six feet tall, sorry. But if his feet are not too large he could have some socks.

After that? I don't trust him, so he'd have to give me many details. And, possibly, a cash deposit, because he doesn't keep promises. Wise as a serpent, gentle as a dove, is my policy.

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Raptor Eye
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We can't be dishonest in prayer. Pretending to love someone is impossible before God. We can ask God to help us to love them. We can ask God to help them and to guide them, knowing that God loves them.

If we genuinely love them, we can pray from the heart that all shall be well for them. We really can hate what they do and love them at the same time. They will answer to God for what harm they do.

We can also give our support to those who are hurt. We can speak out and do whatever we can practically to help them.

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Gamaliel
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A good place to start, I submit, would be to start engaging with people as people, rather than by categorising them by ideology etc.

In the present case, if the coverage of offensive placards at anti-Trump rallies are to be believed - 'Rape Melania' - then some of those on the liberal side are just as bad - if not worse than those they oppose - and use similar crass tactics.

If we accept that not all Trump supporters are racist misogynists or that ot wasn't only right-wing Little Englanders who voted Brexit, then that's a step towards understanding them.

For those who ARE racist misogynists or right-wing Little Englanders, then the only way to do it is by attempting to show a more excellent way ...

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RuthW

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Yes, Jesus said "love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you." He also made it very clear that he was on the side of the most downtrodden people in his society, and he didn't cozy up to the authorities who oppressed those people. He graced Zaccheus with his presence at dinner, and he called Zaccheus on his shit. And he converted him. The religious authorities Jesus just told off. Loving people who wield enormous power does not mean tolerating their abuse of that power.
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Lyda*Rose

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What do you think it does mean? Did Jesus love the cold-ass authorities of his era and if so, how did he show it?

If you can't feel loving toward someone, does it count as love to act lovingly towards them?

These are all sincere questions. I really am flummoxed.

(And thanks for all the comments so far.)

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Anglican_Brat
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I think love thy enemy means, IMHO to not return violence with violence.

It does not mean, to "like one's enemy."

I remember Giles Fraser who once wrote encountering Christians who used "love thy enemy" to mean that we should put up with homophobic Christians, that "love thy enemy" still means that the other IS our enemy.

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Lyda*Rose

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That makes sense compared to the Biblical meaning of "hate" in some contexts.

See:
quote:
“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Luke 14:26
You are supposed to love your enemy and your neighbor but hate your family? [Ultra confused]

Love and hate are tricky concepts in scripture it seems.

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Kelly Alves

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I had a minister who was so manipulative and abusive and impervious to any attempts at discourse that I eventually the only way I could find to pray for him was to say, "May he learn the damage he is doing before he sees God's face, and not after."

I find myself going back to that thought occasionally with Trump. That, and that God will put good people in his path who can speak to him in a way he can here ( see: his sit down with Obama. )

I assume the question is limited to, how do you prevent your inner state from becoming a quagmire or bitterness and hate, and does not mean actions I might take in response to Trump's policies, because as to the latter, I think the most loving thing I can do for Trump is to do the best I can to prevent him from doing the damage he is capable of inflicting. Resisting and challenging. And continuing to serve the people made most vulnerable by what he has done so far, and will do in the future.

And I really took on board Hillary's injunction to "Go higher."

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
What do you think it does mean? Did Jesus love the cold-ass authorities of his era and if so, how did he show it?

If you can't feel loving toward someone, does it count as love to act lovingly towards them?

These are all sincere questions. I really am flummoxed.

(And thanks for all the comments so far.)

Well, for one his final words included a statement of forgiveness toward the people who killed him.

As to his confrontation of authority-- warning people that they are stuffing it up and need to pull up their socks is one way of being loving, just as much as putting stuff aside and asking the guy in the tree to take you home for dinner. Love requires different things at different times.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Golden Key
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{Very much YMMV.}

I'm experimenting with various things:

--Praying for little-kid Donald. I don't know much about his mom; but Fred, his dad, strongly taught all the kids that only winners deserved to be loved. And he forced the kids to be very competitive. D's big brother, Fred, Jr. (somewhat) separated from the family, was an alcoholic, and died too young. I saw something, the other day, where D was asked about him. IIRC, D paused a moment, then quietly said that he thought Fred, Jr. couldn't handle the competition. His style was tinged with a bit of sadness. Given some of his campaign persona, he could've said, "well, he was never up to the competition, but I always have been". But he didn't.

When he was very young, maybe 5, D was the kind of little boy who goes around and smashes other kids' block creations. (People who've known him for a long time say he's never really changed.) When D was 13, his dad reportedly tired of his behavior, and packed him off to military boarding school--the only kid in the family to be sent away. D says he liked it, but it probably wasn't easy.

I think D may still have living siblings, but I haven't heard anything about them. I don't know if they're just private people, or there's a rift. IIRC somebody said on the main election thread that D had refused to help with the cost of the health care of a disabled relative.

--I don't know anything about Pence's background; but he may well have childhood baggage and damage, too.


--This is *way* out there. Something I heard about years ago that may or may not be true, or open to interpretation.

A resident of a neighborhood was driving everyone crazy--basically, an adult bully, I think. People decided they'd had enough. Someone came up with the idea of focusing (thoughts, prayers, whatever) on the neighbor going to the place of his best good. So they tried. I don't know how long it took; but he suddenly moved away, with no warning. I don't know what happened.

This may be a totally ridiculous thing to try. But, as long as the focus is on helping Donald find the goodness, healing, and help he needs--which, I'm pretty sure, isn't as president--I don't see how it can be a bad thing.

--Maybe think of D as not well *yet*.

--Pray for Hillary, too, whatever you think of her. She's got to be in a world of hurt.

FWIW, YMMV, etc.

[ 14. November 2016, 05:47: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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simontoad
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How do you love? I don't think I know, but I love.

Some kinds of love are emotion, but is charity an emotion? I think that's what love means in the biblical sense: charity. It's an attitude, a turning towards, a conscious choice.

Hate isn't that. Hate's an emotion. It's overwhelming sometimes, but I find that my hate passes, and then I can turn towards those in front of me.

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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Barnabas62
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The root Greek word used both in love your neighbour and love your enemies is agape. As a noun it is pretty well defined in 1 Cor 13. I think is is best understood as a generous and unselfish act of the will and may indeed be exercised independent of or in contradiction to feelings of animosity or hatred.

I think that's what loving the unlovable is about.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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mr cheesy
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I've been very affected by this radio segment where a black presenter talks ultra calmly to a white nationalist.

I can tell you that if it had been me doing the interview, I'd have likely swung at him but Al Letsen has much greater reserves of strength and character than I do.

But to me this is an example of loving the enemy. It is taking him seriously, but refusing to back down. It is listening to him calmly, trying to hold onto the facts of his humanity, but refusing to budge.

What isn't loving is simply standing by whilst he convenes a mob to start stringing people up or punishing people for being the "wrong" colour. What isn't loving is giving him an unchallenged platform to spill his words of hatred. What isn't loving is allowing him to get to your neighbours without walking over your dead body.

We can only show that we love Trump by refusing to allow the sickness inside his head to be actioned in the world.

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Barnabas62
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Yes I agree. Cromwell's famous statement, "I beseech ye in the bowels of Christ, think it possible ye may be mistaken" is an agape statement. The standard appears to be "correct gently and lovingly". Of course we may be wrong ourselves, but that doesn't change the principle.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Sipech
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Where I struggle with the idea of loving your enemy, is that to do that, one must label another human being as being an enemy.

On the OP, I find the idea of "love the sinner, hate the sin" is actually a fundamentally sound concept, but one that, in the context of Dead Horses, is badly misapplied.

Where we have disagreements with fellow christians on this, I recall listening to Tom Wright talk about his time as an observer at a Vatican meeting, where he was invited alongside a representative from the Eastern Orthodox church. There were big disagreements over communion, but there was nothing to stop them reading scripture together or praying together. And in light of that, I think it's the most obvious place to start. Not to read scripture at one another, but with one another.

But it's only the first step of a long journey.

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Twilight

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That was beautiful, Golden Key.

When I worked in the Pentagon, I was great with all the low level civilians, enlisted and the hundreds of disabled, but I was not always so nice to the arrogant officers. One day my friend called me on it and said, "Colonels are people, too." So I really worked on it and tried to see the worried striver behind the bluster.

My husband, career military, has another way of dealing. He couldn't believe the "Not my president," signs that went up after Obama's elections and he can't believe them now. Obama, Trump, or George W. Bush, the President is his Commander in Chief and he will give him the respect the position deserves if not personal love. I think that's a starting point for me with Trump.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Yes I agree. Cromwell's famous statement, "I beseech ye in the bowels of Christ, think it possible ye may be mistaken" is an agape statement.

Not to mention the standard by which irony meters are stress-tested.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Yes I agree. Cromwell's famous statement, "I beseech ye in the bowels of Christ, think it possible ye may be mistaken" is an agape statement. The standard appears to be "correct gently and lovingly". Of course we may be wrong ourselves, but that doesn't change the principle.

I'm not sure Cromwell is a particularly good model of conduct. And at least one way to read that statement suggest that we ought to listen to rabid nonsense put out by extremists who want to set up white-only enclaves because we quote "might be mistaken" and they might be right.

No. I am wrong about many things, but I'm not wrong that black people are as deserving as white. I'm not wrong that talking about expelling 4 million people from the USA is a sign of an approaching militaristic demogogue. I'm not wrong that various minorities are living in fear of the next occupant of the White House.

[ 14. November 2016, 11:06: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Obama, Trump, or George W. Bush, the President is his Commander in Chief and he will give him the respect the position deserves if not personal love. I think that's a starting point for me with Trump.

I don't understand this position, please explain a bit more.

What would the leader of your country need to do to not deserve "respect if not personal love"? Where actually is the line for you?

[ 14. November 2016, 11:08: Message edited by: mr cheesy ]

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Barnabas62
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Karl is right and mr cheesy is right that Cromwell did not live up to his own lofty words. I'm not sure that makes them less lofty. And Jacob Bronowski redeemed them in the famous scene from the Ascent of Man at Auschwitz.

I think mr cheesy is right about the issues he declares himself not to be wrong about! And sometimes there is no room left for any form of dialogue. I don't think that removes the obligation to love enemies. Or at least try.

Historically, peaceful civil disobedience, another form of aiming high when others aim low, has had the effect of winning respect for minorities and minority viewpoints. I think that's the way of love as well. I have a feeling we may find out just how effective it continues to be under the incoming regime in the US. All such protests are a kind of beseeching authorities to reconsider.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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Behaving well, with charity and kindness isn't the same trying to command a feeling of love. Behaving well doesn't mean lying to yourself about your feelings either. I think we often confuse acting lovingly with a feeling.

The most loving thing with evil people is to refuse to collude with them, to not approve, to hope and pray for their correction, but to do nothing to express acceptance, agreement, and to be careful that general respect for human dignity isn't misinterpreted as approval. But to pretend to love as in a feeling may be a lie. Speaking out against hate is love. Throwing over a table in a temple is love.

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Gamaliel
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Apparently, Obama has deported more people than any President in US history. That doesn't mean that we don't have trouble ahead - I think we do - but if the recent furore about Trump on other boards and in the media has taught me anything, it's to actually listen to people who disagree with me rather than jumping to conclusions as to what they are saying ...

I winced when a BBC journalist mistook a rhetorical Republican reference to The Knights of Columbus to be a reference to 'another extremist group?' like the KKK.

The Republican spokesperson (to whom I took an immediate dislike, I must admit) had thrown back a question about the way the KKK were holding a rally to celebrate Trump's victory by saying that the KKK were so marginal that you might as well ask about the Knights of Columbus holding a rally for the same purpose ...

The point was missed by the BBC journalist and the black novelist who was also being interviewed at the same time. Love, in that instance, would have been to hear the Republican guy out - then to call him on something he was saying, not that he wasn't saying ...

We could still exercise love and give the Republican guy a drubbing ...

We have to cut through the noise and the rhetoric. If Trump had said that he was going to investigate criminals and drug-dealers then no-one would bat and eyelid. But because he's bloviated out of his arse during the almost Orwellian Two Minute Hate style hype of his election campaign, we're all expecting him to round-up anyone with a Spanish sounding surname or set up Gulags in Nevada.

The tragedy is that hype and reality have become conflated. He's part of that process.

But it's not something that's restricted to any one side or ideology.

We all need to be careful on that front.

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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Twilight

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Obama, Trump, or George W. Bush, the President is his Commander in Chief and he will give him the respect the position deserves if not personal love. I think that's a starting point for me with Trump.

I don't understand this position, please explain a bit more.

What would the leader of your country need to do to not deserve "respect if not personal love"? Where actually is the line for you?

The line is fairly simple. It's standing during "Hail to the chief," and not sporting a bumper sticker that says, "F**k Trump." It's not burning down a business because I don't like him. Because this is still my country and he is its fairly elected president.

What it wouldn't include was saying I agreed with his policies. It wouldn't keep me from peaceful protest against those policies. It wouldn't keep me from working hard to get someone else elected in four years.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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What do you think about the kneeling during national anthems? "Hail to the Chief" I take it is a salute to the president? Respectful kneeling?
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Brenda Clough
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:


I think D may still have living siblings, but I haven't heard anything about them. I don't know if they're just private people, or there's a rift. IIRC somebody said on the main election thread that D had refused to help with the cost of the health care of a disabled relative.

You will. There's a sister who is a judge. The Orange One says he will put her onto the Supreme Court. Nepotism? But of course.

[ 14. November 2016, 17:34: Message edited by: Brenda Clough ]

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Lyda*Rose

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He'd probably bring up Jack and Bobby Kennedy in defense. [Roll Eyes]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Yes, Jesus said "love your enemy and pray for those who persecute you." He also made it very clear that he was on the side of the most downtrodden people in his society, and he didn't cozy up to the authorities who oppressed those people. He graced Zaccheus with his presence at dinner, and he called Zaccheus on his shit. And he converted him. The religious authorities Jesus just told off. Loving people who wield enormous power does not mean tolerating their abuse of that power.

And how did He call him on it Ruth? Didn't He call him on it by just loving him? Respecting him? Honouring him? When he KNEW he didn't deserve it?

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Love wins

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Golden Key
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mr cheesy--


quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Obama, Trump, or George W. Bush, the President is his Commander in Chief and he will give him the respect the position deserves if not personal love. I think that's a starting point for me with Trump.

I don't understand this position, please explain a bit more.

What would the leader of your country need to do to not deserve "respect if not personal love"? Where actually is the line for you?

That's standard, for the US military. The president is basically their top boss. They're not allowed to publicly criticize the C-in-C, at least not if they do so *as* a member of the military. AIUI, they can post, write to an editor, etc., as long as they post as Average Joe/Jill, not Capt. Joe/Jill.

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--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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Brenda Clough
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there is a similar Hatch Act that keeps federal employees from indulging in political activism.

My son is in the US Army. He is careful to take his political car magnet (he supported Gary Johnson) off his car when he is either doing the day job or doing his Army Reserve stuff.

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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Something compels me to say I need to listen a little more to the Golden Keys of the world. Yeah, Twilight, that was very moving.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Lyda*Rose

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I think it is usually a good thing to listen to Golden Key. [Smile]

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
That's standard, for the US military. The president is basically their top boss. They're not allowed to publicly criticize the C-in-C, at least not if they do so *as* a member of the military. AIUI, they can post, write to an editor, etc., as long as they post as Average Joe/Jill, not Capt. Joe/Jill.

Right, but that wasn't actually what I was asking - where Twilight said that the "starting point" for him/her (presumably not being a person in the military) was to model the respect given by someone who was.

I wasn't talking about the arguably necessary deference given in the military chain of command, I was talking about why anyone in their right mind would defer to a fascist when they didn't have to.

If Trump presses the nuclear button on Iran, are you seriously saying that as President he'd have your respect?

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Martin60
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There is no even remote scenario in which he would, especially if the deal is kept. Now North Korea ...

And Jesus respected Pilate and even Herod and His immediate murderers.

So yes, we must respect our Godless leaders and their instruments to the end.

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Love wins

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Kelly Alves

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Respect and cooperation being two entirely different things.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Brenda Clough
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No, I think one should neither respect nor cooperate with demonizing immigrants or looting the environment. I may respect the office of the Presidency, but I would be a damn fool to let my daughter intern in the Orange One's office.

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Callan
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
mr cheesy--


quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Obama, Trump, or George W. Bush, the President is his Commander in Chief and he will give him the respect the position deserves if not personal love. I think that's a starting point for me with Trump.

I don't understand this position, please explain a bit more.

What would the leader of your country need to do to not deserve "respect if not personal love"? Where actually is the line for you?

That's standard, for the US military. The president is basically their top boss. They're not allowed to publicly criticize the C-in-C, at least not if they do so *as* a member of the military. AIUI, they can post, write to an editor, etc., as long as they post as Average Joe/Jill, not Capt. Joe/Jill.
Yes, there's a difference with the UK where the President is explicitly part of the chain of command whereas the UK Prime Minister isn't. In practice he gets to say "go" and they go and all the rest of it but when he does so, he does so with the authority of the Crown. So for a serving member of the military to criticise the President is a bit like lower ranks criticising their officers. In the UK it's more of an informal sense that the military ought not to routinely interfere in politics. IIRC, the brass did make it pretty clear that if the government was going to send them to war they ought to make sure the lads had the right kit, during the New Labour era but they were very careful not to say that this implied that the voters should support the other lot.

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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton

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Lamb Chopped
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Respect can be an action rather than a heartfelt emotion. So can love.

For me, loving the Orange One (God help me, I have difficulty even typing his name!) is going to mean several things.

First, I have to (try to) stop talking smack about him on Inauguration Day, when he becomes president (God help us) and comes under the "respect those in authority over you" Bible passages. This won't stop me from sober criticism, but I suppose I will have to rein in my desire to spit. And certainly I will have to watch myself bigly, YUGELY, with what I say to my son about him. (You can see how difficult this is going to be for me.)

Second, I am going to have to (dear God) PRAY for him. Oh God.

Third, assuming he continues to behave as he has done in the past, I am going to have to take part in whatever collective actions develop to rebuke him. That won't be hard. And helping someone face reality is (or can be, should be) a loving act.

Thanks, guys. Now I'm contemplating how much my spiritual life is going to suck for the next four years. [Razz]

[ 15. November 2016, 16:07: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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I liked Angela Merkel's response (German Chancellor), which seemed nicely completed by an opposition leader's comment below:
quote:
Germany and America are bound by their values: democracy, freedom, the respect for the law and the dignity of human beings, independent of their origin, skin color, religion, gender, sexual orientation or political position...On the basis of these values I offer the future president of the United States, Donald Trump, close cooperation.
Die Linke (The Left) leader Gregor Gysi added helpfully and accurately:
quote:
He's a simple soul, not particularly well-educated, he's coarse...We've never had anything like this in this form as president of the United States, even though there have been what I would consider bad presidents before
Deutsche Welle website article (in English)

So the rude boorish one gets attention and cooperation, not affection, so long as he behaves. Said politely by Germans. Which sounds like a good behaviourist way of treating errant children. Refuse attention to had behaviour. That's love to isn't it?

[ 15. November 2016, 16:10: Message edited by: no prophet's flag is set so... ]

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
... For me, loving the Orange One (God help me, I have difficulty even typing his name!) is going to mean several things.

Do you mean President Elect Trump?

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Love wins

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Respect and cooperation being two entirely different things.

In His case? Do you really think so? Therefore in ours? And NO not in co-operating in evil. Stand with the oppressed (disobey) AND co-operate with the abuse of power (civilly). Submit to it. I regard Martin Luther King as the greatest man of the C20th and a fair few more besides.

The Church in Germany could have EASILY stopped Hitler if it had been incarnational. At any point in history the same applies.

The century we do, the Kingdom, the Eschaton is realised.

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Love wins

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Lamb Chopped
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Respect and cooperation are two entirely different things, as Kelly says. You needn't kiss ass and do whatever is required of you to show respect. Jesus showed respect at his various trials, but he certainly did not bend over backwards to make it easy for them to convict him. He mostly kept his mouth shut, which drove Caiaphas mad and even frustrated Pilate. And he refused to do any miracles for Herod.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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SusanDoris

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Respect can be an action rather than a heartfelt emotion. So can love.

For me, loving the Orange One (God help me, I have difficulty even typing his name!) is going to mean several things.
<snip>
Thanks, guys. Now I'm contemplating how much my spiritual life is going to suck for the next four years. [Razz]

Strong post as always and very interesting to read. I sympathise with your feelings even though I'm an atheist and here not there.

On the general question of loving one's enemies, I long since discarded any personal obligation to do so. I think a realistic assessment of any potential enemy is required by governments and on a personal level, I have no enemies really.

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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.

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Lamb Chopped
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Oh, believe me, loving one's enemies requires a very realistic appraisal of them. Anything you do with a cobra, you're going to do carefully if you want to live.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Respect and cooperation are two entirely different things, as Kelly says. You needn't kiss ass and do whatever is required of you to show respect. Jesus showed respect at his various trials, but he certainly did not bend over backwards to make it easy for them to convict him. He mostly kept his mouth shut, which drove Caiaphas mad and even frustrated Pilate. And he refused to do any miracles for Herod.

Aye. He could have stopped them breathing without even holding His breath. He co-operated with His prophesied destiny. To be led as a lamb to slaughter. He set them up. Manipulated them. Subverted them. Minimally. Silently. He made it inevitable that they would convict Him. He could have talked His way out of it easily. Who's talking kiss ass?

Some act to follow admittedly. One day.

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Love wins

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Anglican_Brat
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Color me cynical, but you don't hear exhortations to love one's enemy from conservatives whenever someone is on death row, or for example, loving people associated with ISIS.

In fact, didn't Trump say that he wanted to bomb the crap out of ISIS?

Where is the Christian love from Mr. Trump?

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Oh, believe me, loving one's enemies requires a very realistic appraisal of them. Anything you do with a cobra, you're going to do carefully if you want to live.

And if you don't... [Paranoid] My version of an old story:

A scorpion came to the edge of a river. He wanted to cross, but there were no fallen branches to cross on, no big leaves to float on. So he sat down to think.

Meanwhile, a fox came running up to the bank of the river. It had been a long day, and all the fox wanted was to go home, eat, and curl up in his den.

As it put one paw in the water, he heard a sound. "Excuse me?" said a little voice.

Fox whipped his head around. Nothing. He finally saw a scorpion on a nearby stone. The fox slowly backed off a bit. "What do you want?" he asked.

Scorpion cleared its throat. "Excuse me, Fox, but I need to cross the river, and there are no branches nor leaves to take me across. May I hitch a ride on your back?"

In his heart, Fox panicked. He was terrified. He had been firmly taught to avoid scorpions, being that they couldn't be trusted, and would as soon sting you as say "hello". On the other hand, his parents had taught all their kits to be polite and helpful.

"Scorpion, I am afraid that, once we're mid-river, you'll sting me, and I'll go down and die," said Fox.

Scorpion looked surprised, then serious. "Fox, if I did that, we'd both go down and die. I don't want to die."

Fox's tummy twisted and did flip-flops. Then Fox made a decision. "All right," he said. "Climb up on my back, and take hold of my fur, so you don't fall off."

Scorpion climbed up, and Fox edged into the water. "Scorpion," said Fox, "you promise not to sting me? If I'm stung, we'll both go down and die."

"Fox, Fox, why would I do that? We'd both go down and die," said Scorpion.

Fox paddled into the mid-river, and suddenly felt a sharp pain in his neck. He knew what had happened. "Oh, Scorpion," he slurred with his numbing mouth, "you promised! Now, we'll both go down and die".

As the water closed over them both, Scorpion whispered "It's the way I am".

[ 16. November 2016, 00:07: Message edited by: Golden Key ]

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Golden Key
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A_B--

quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Where is the Christian love from Mr. Trump?

Um...did anyone say we're expecting that???

--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Lamb Chopped
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Trump is not to my knowledge a Christian.

And yes, the duty of loving ISIS people etc. lies on us as well. The folks I know express this by praying for them (and their conversion from evil), other forms of action being basically impossible.

As for people on death row, as far as I'm aware they receive prison visits and ministry like other inmates. I suspect you believe that love must be expressed in a particular way to count, i.e. in releasing them from their sentence.

[ 16. November 2016, 00:16: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Anglican_Brat
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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
[QB] Trump is not to my knowledge a Christian.

He was baptized, wasn't he? Unless he explicitly renounces his Christianity, I view him as accountable to Christian principles.

quote:

As for people on death row, as far as I'm aware they receive prison visits and ministry like other inmates. I suspect you believe that love must be expressed in a particular way to count, i.e. in releasing them from their sentence.

I oppose capital punishment, I believe firmly that to love one'a enemy requires granting them at least a chance of repentance. Which means, ergo, you don't kill them.

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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