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Source: (consider it) Thread: "Love your enemy"
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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As for 1), you can take that up with Trump. But there are any number of people baptized here, particularly as infants, who then go on to live as if it had never happened.

In any case, it makes no difference to our duty of loving our enemy, even this enemy. Christian or not, we're stuck with it.

As for the death penalty--my point was: you appear to think that there is no way whatsoever to love people on death row unless you are personally actively working to get their sentences revoked or commuted. So basically chaplains, prison visitors, etc. are not loving them unless they are at the same time actively engaged in attempting to negate their death sentences. Is that a correct understanding of your view?

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Anglican_Brat
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# 12349

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
[QB] As for 1), you can take that up with Trump. But there are any number of people baptized here, particularly as infants, who then go on to live as if it had never happened.

In any case, it makes no difference to our duty of loving our enemy, even this enemy. Christian or not, we're stuck with it.

I think calling people to account on the basis of Christian character is part of loving them. They might not heed the criticism, but loving the enemy entails confronting them and holding them accountable if not to "Christian" values, but to civic values of decency and fairness.

quote:
As for the death penalty--my point was: you appear to think that there is no way whatsoever to love people on death row unless you are personally actively working to get their sentences revoked or commuted. So basically chaplains, prison visitors, etc. are not loving them unless they are at the same time actively engaged in attempting to negate their death sentences. Is that a correct understanding of your view?
I did not mean to denigrate prison ministry, ministry to those in death row. What I simply meant was that I cannot understand reconciling capital punishment with a gospel perspective as I understand it, which IMHO, involves commitment to returning no one evil for evil, a will to renounce retribution and a life ethic that sees all people as deserving of the right to life. This is my particular progressive Christian perspective and I understand that not everyone may agree with me. But emotionally this is my conviction. If I was unclear and abrupt in my response, I apologize.

[ 16. November 2016, 01:54: Message edited by: Anglican_Brat ]

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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.

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Lamb Chopped
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Then I think we are in substantial agreement. And by all means call Trump to account as often and as well as you can. I was simply confused because it sounded as if, well, as if you were surprised at his behavior. I wish I were.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
Respect and cooperation are two entirely different things, as Kelly says. You needn't kiss ass and do whatever is required of you to show respect. Jesus showed respect at his various trials, but he certainly did not bend over backwards to make it easy for them to convict him. He mostly kept his mouth shut, which drove Caiaphas mad and even frustrated Pilate. And he refused to do any miracles for Herod.

Aye. He could have stopped them breathing without even holding His breath. He co-operated with His prophesied destiny. To be led as a lamb to slaughter. He set them up. Manipulated them. Subverted them. Minimally. Silently. He made it inevitable that they would convict Him. He could have talked His way out of it easily. Who's talking kiss ass?

Some act to follow admittedly. One day.

I refuse to turn myself into someone I don't like or respect for the sake of someone like Trump. If I meet him, I would probably make myself shake his hand, but I will also look him in the eye, and he won't like what he sees there. A fencer always-- ALWAYS-- shakes hands before she stands en guarde.

I can't tell if you are agreeing with me or not, Martin, but funnily enough I thought that was a Christlike attitude.

Lamb Chopped, I feel for you. We had a couple third party voters in my family, but at least we all can hold hand and come together in our hatred of Trump.

[ 17. November 2016, 03:30: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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I mean, pray for his deliverance from his Trumpness, or whatever. (Forgot the point of the OP, sorry.)

[ 17. November 2016, 03:32: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Lamb Chopped
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I think you were thinking of a different thread where I referred to my unfortunate situation. But I appreciate the sympathy! (You should see my facebook feed. It looks positively schizophrenic with every possible shade of politics and religion represented. I have an interesting family (and friends). You definitely get practice in loving your enemies.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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Yeah, like Lewis said, don't start with Hitler, start with the person in front of you. ( and yeah, I think I hit the "Next thread" button at some point, because when I scrolled up page 2, I didn't recognize the conversation all of a sudden. )

The same stuff still applies, though, I guess.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, like Lewis said, don't start with Hitler, start with the person in front of you.

You mean punch them first?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Penny S
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Kelly, with regard to the fencers, they are both playing the same game, with the same rules, on the same piste.

Not sure that applies here.

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Hiro's Leap

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I'd say the most important way to love your enemy these days is to try to tell the truth about them.

Remember all humans are biased and that you're no exception. Treat negative stories about enemies with the same skepticism that you'd apply to ones attacking your friends and allies. Call out people on your own team who pass on misinformation or exaggeration. Be charitable - don't interpret your enemy's words in the worst light. Don't strawman their positions but try to understand their strongest arguments. Remember it's not just your enemies who live in echo chambers, and that you're both prone to fear and demonising the other. Step back when you get too angry. Try to find common ground and build bridges with your enemies where possible; oppose them firmly but honestly when it's not.

[Edit to add: I fail miserably at most of these.]
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
at least we all can hold hand and come together in our hatred of Trump.

quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
I mean, pray for his deliverance from his Trumpness, or whatever. (Forgot the point of the OP, sorry.)

[Big Grin]

[ 17. November 2016, 19:05: Message edited by: Hiro's Leap ]

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Martin60
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Kelly. I agree. It's a Christ-like attitude. Reflected in your approach. He played very hard eye-ball with the Scribes, Pharisees, Pilate, Herod; all those abusing (redundant I know) power.

We ain't that good. That pivotal. Paul was a master at using every opportunity to exploit the powerful in his apparent helplessness too. Being there.

Not only are we not that good, I feel we need to go further than Jesus, or not as far, yet; be as shrewd as serpents and as harmless as doves. He HAD to confront power alone and play His unique role. That may come to us, but you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.

We live in a complex world where the multilateral liberal order is in retreat for a generation or more. Bilateralism between all big beasts is back. There will be strange pragmatic ententes. Realpolitik is back. One step away from machtpolitik. Nothing we can do there. We have no part to play, nothing to speak to power at that level.

So where can we? Subtly. Harmlessly. Guilelessly. Subversively. The way Christianity salted, leavened the greatest empire on Earth. Invoking the humanity of all others. Locally on up. Family. School. Friends. Colleagues. Neighbours. Street. Community. Environment.

Ah heck, you know the drill, as woolly liberals NOT bad-mouthing inept authority and alienated ethne (the right wing working class), sympathising with it, working with it, forgiving it whilst NEVER backing down in solidarity with the weak.

Hug homophobes and racists and ablists and sexists and xenophobes as a buffer for those they persecute in their fear. Acknowledging their fears isn't justifying them. We've got to find a way of detaching them from demagogues.

Trump is IRRELEVANT. We'll never get to look him in the eye with our righteousness. The bottom layers of his pyramid are our field. Without them he is UTTERLY irrelevant.

We gotta love them Kelly. We got to incarnate among them.

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Love wins

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Martin60
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Hiro's Leap - excellent, that's exactly part of the strategy we need.

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Love wins

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Kelly, with regard to the fencers, they are both playing the same game, with the same rules, on the same piste.

Not sure that applies here.

It applies to my character, which is what I was talking about. I'm not in charge of the games someone else chooses to play.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, like Lewis said, don't start with Hitler, start with the person in front of you.

You mean punch them first?
(Serene Jesus face) If punching someone in the face is genuinely the most loving thing you can do... [Biased]

A younger cousin of mine was getting thumped yesterday by a bunch of conservative friends/ family of his about his stance on school prayer. I stepped in, invoking my Christianity, and explaining why forbidding a teacher to lead prayer in school was not the same as punishing kids who chose to pray before lunchtime. I chimed in when he expressed doubts about the pledge of allegiance, stating my usual rap about it being idolatry and how God doesn't honor coerced pledges of loyalty.

Trump ain't gonna hear a damn thing I ever say, but the people in front of me will. As per Hiro's excellent, excellent post, there is a way to hold your ground and open your mouth while still seeing Christ in people.

And Martin, I think I understand where you are coming from, although personally I am less inclined to offer people honey and more hot beef broth, if that translates. ( Politely informing a bunch of evangelicals they are participating in idolatry would be an example of broth.)

I'm honestly doing poorly (hence my thoughts of broth) so I had to reread Martin's post to really get it.
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:


So where can we? Subtly. Harmlessly. Guilelessly. Subversively. The way Christianity salted, leavened the greatest empire on Earth. Invoking the humanity of all others. Locally on up. Family. School. Friends. Colleagues. Neighbours. Street. Community. Environment.
<snip>

Trump is IRRELEVANT. We'll never get to look him in the eye with our righteousness. The bottom layers of his pyramid are our field. Without them he is UTTERLY irrelevant.

We gotta love them Kelly. We got to incarnate among them.

By God. Team Marvin.

[ 18. November 2016, 02:13: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet's flag is set so...:
What do you think about the kneeling during national anthems? "Hail to the Chief" I take it is a salute to the president? Respectful kneeling?

I know this is going back a bit on the thread, but I wanted to add: Kneeling during the national anthem was done by high-visibility celebrities as an act of protest. It was intended to be visible in order to lead to a conversation. I think that's very different from individuals deciding, "Yeah, I don't like him. I'm not standing" if they're present when "Hail to the Chief" is played, when their doing so won't have any real effect in the world. IMO.


Anyway, I'm with Martin that we need to be concerned the most with loving people we come into contact with. Part of the reason, I think, that we're having trouble with what it should mean to love Trump might be that it's so abstract - even if he and his actions/statements have affected us personally. It's also pretty hypothetical: how many of us can reasonably expect not only to meet him, but to have an opportunity for meaningful interaction?

That said, praying for his greatest good (i.e., God's will for him) is a good idea, if for no other reason than that it is better for our own spiritual health to do so. Opposing his policies is probably more an act of loving those affected by them than it is loving him, himself.

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by churchgeek:


That said, praying for his greatest good (i.e., God's will for him) is a good idea, if for no other reason than that it is better for our own spiritual health to do so. Opposing his policies is probably more an act of loving those affected by them than it is loving him, himself.

Agreed. One could argue, though, that opposing dangerous policies "loves" the promoter of such policies by preventing them from doing things that bring them shame.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
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True, but I still think that's more of an abstraction, or perhaps a secondary effect.

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I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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You are absolutely right. Martin nailed it, the bottom of the pyramid is our focus.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Eutychus
From the edge
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
You are absolutely right. Martin nailed it, the bottom of the pyramid is our focus.

Yes, I'd like to sign up to Martin's manifesto above, too.

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One has to take part. Scary as it is. - Martin60
Jerusalem is a city without walls

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Barnabas62
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A wise man told me a few years ago that, contrary to many charismatic expectations of revival, he thought the coming season would be more like exile.

I think Martin60 did an excellent job of summarising the right approach in an exile era. Subversive love scatters the proud, lifts up the lowly.

Well said, Martin60.

[ 18. November 2016, 08:06: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

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Martin60
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Easily said ...

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Love wins

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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Yeah, there's that.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Golden Key
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, like Lewis said, don't start with Hitler, start with the person in front of you.

You mean punch them first?
(Serene Jesus face) If punching someone in the face is genuinely the most loving thing you can do... [Biased]

LOL, Kelly!

Reminds me of a story about Buddhist teacher Sharon Salzberg (from The Existential Buddhist site):

quote:
A menacing stranger once tried to pull Sharon Salzberg from her rickshaw while traveling through a dark alley in Calcutta. A friend managed to push the man away and they luckily escaped unharmed. When she told Angarika Munindra what had happened, he exclaimed “Oh, Sharon, with all the lovingkindness in your heart, you should have taken your umbrella and hit the man over the head with it!”
[Two face]

By the way, the article at that link is very pertinent.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

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Russ
Old salt
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
You are absolutely right. Martin nailed it, the bottom of the pyramid is our focus.

No. The person we're with now is supposed to be our focus.

The question is about how to love those we disagree with. (or those who disagree with us *).

Patting ourselves on the back for loving those we sympathize with (arguing for the interests of those we see as innocent victims) doesn't cut it. Even the pagans do that.

Loving our opponents doesn't mean that we stop arguing for what we believe to be just. It means being the sort of opponent we would like to have.


(* - English euphemism for food poisoning - "it disagreed with me")

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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So... This?
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Yeah, like Lewis said, don't start with Hitler, start with the person in front of you. <snip>

Trump ain't gonna hear a damn thing I ever say, but the people in front of me will. As per Hiro's excellent, excellent post, there is a way to hold your ground and open your mouth while still seeing Christ in people.

And Martin, I think I understand where you are coming from, although personally I am less inclined to offer people honey and more hot beef broth, if that translates.

The bottom of the pyramid IS the person in front of me. Maybe as a blue collar worker who gets underpaid to provide childcare for other underpaid blue collar workers that plants me in a specific social arena, but what I heard Hiro and Martin to be saying is pretty much just what you are saying.

[ 19. November 2016, 19:51: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Russ
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Sorry Kelly - I may have read into your words something you didn't intend.

Is the confusion here between loving our neighbour and loving our enemies ?

Nothing wrong with putting the main focus on your neighbour.

But if you're led to declare that your neighbour's enemy is your enemy, that shouldn't stop you being a chivalrous enemy.

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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Oh, agreed. Scroll up for my fencing metaphore.

I think the confusion came from the phrase " the bottom of the pyramid" which could mean " those most vulnerable socially" -- and indeed they are the ones who need the most backup right now-- and " the bottom line of the political pyramid, meaning President /Congress/ Supreme Court to state gov.to local gov.to neighborhoods ( and in my opinion, this can include cyber neighborhoods) From Martin's post, I was working with the second definition.

Which leads to the question, as Jesus asked, who is our neighbor anyway? Or, are their people " in front of us" that we aren't really noticing?

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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lilBuddha
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Jesus Christ on a pogo stick.
Your neighbour is everyone. That is the fucking point of the Good Samaritan, to look beyond your own group.
This is never more true than today, when we can see the whole world and our impact upon it. When what we do; what we eat, buy, vote, work all have a global impact.

Love your enemy. I do not have the same religious injunction to do so. Hate, though, is wasted energy that negatively affects oneself.
But not wishing your enemy* harm is not the same thing as being OK with their agenda. Nor being accepting of their promoting it. It is a difficult balance, wishing someone well as a person, but confronting their damaging beliefs.


*Not the best term either.

This rant is not directed towards a particular person, but the thread general.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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mousethief

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If our neighbor is everyone (which I do not deny), and we should love our neighbor, then perforce we should love our enemy, because our enemy is our neighbor.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
If our neighbor is everyone (which I do not deny), and we should love our neighbor, then perforce we should love our enemy, because our enemy is our neighbor.

That is the only rational interpretation of your main man's words.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
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Of course. But as people keep saying, amorphic love aimed at heads of state is not a really effective kind of love.

Lilb, perhaps my rhetorical question was meant to imply the fucking answer you fucking supplied. A few weeks ago, memes were going around implying that the stakes were too high to not unfriend Trump supporters. We talk about the echo chamber, but then we sneer at people willing to do the hard work of engaging with different ideas as " appeasers."

And " engaging"'is not the same as " assimiating" , "agreeing" , or " cooperating", by the way. It's reaching out. As Martin said, Christianity began the same way.

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

Posts: 35051 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Of course. But as people keep saying, amorphic love aimed at heads of state is not a really effective kind of love.

Lilb, perhaps my rhetorical question was meant to imply the fucking answer you fucking supplied.

My comment was not directed at you. I did say at the bottom of my post that it was aimed at no on in particular, And I so reiterate now.

quote:


A few weeks ago, memes were going around implying that the stakes were too high to not unfriend Trump supporters. We talk about the echo chamber, but then we sneer at people willing to do the hard work of engaging with different ideas as " appeasers."

I am finding this a personal challenge. I have friends who supported Brexit and friends who supported Trump. It is very difficult to engage with them on politics now because I strongly feel both of those positions are harmful. But they are my friends so I do.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16599 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Ok, I apologize, I missed the tag at the end. Never attack issues when you have just woke up.

It's just a mess, whether we are talking about loving neighbors or enemies. The words are easy to type, but the practicum is a bitch.

A friend of mine was mournfully describing his befuddlement at one of the kindest, most generous people he knows was expressing hurt and offense at the way people were slamming Trump voters-- of which she was one. I know her, too, and she is much too valuable a person to shunt to the unfriend pile. You have to figure out how to maintain your view of that person's worth while still recognizing that even someone you love and respect can be totally fucking wrong. Just-- wrong.

And it's not like even people who qualify as neighbors or allies are going to be easy to love all the time, either. I feel like I personally am well placed to focus on serving the Latino community in my area-- somehow-- but even though there was a huge surge for Clinton among them, it's not like racism and misogyny is nonexistent there. And I don't mean in a broad cultural sense, either, I mean parents saying straight up sexist stuff to their kids right in front of you, and you have to figure out how to surf that wave.

No matter who we aim ourselves at, there are going to be times we have to grab hold of our values while acknowledging other's worth.

[ 22. November 2016, 04:02: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]

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"Take your broken heart, make it into art"-- Carrie Fisher (1956-2016)

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Timothy the Obscure

Mostly Friendly
# 292

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I've struggled with this, and apart from the purely political aspect--which is to fight Trumpism to my last breath--the question of what I would do if I had occasion to meet the guy face to face has come up. For a start, I'd follow George Fox's example with Oliver Cromwell and address him as "Friend Donald," which would surely piss him off to no end, which is kind of the point. And I'd invite him to sit with me in silent prayer. I think I'd hold his hand, just to freak him out a little more...not in a mean way, just because I don't think human contact is something he has a lot of experience with. Think of it as exposure therapy.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

Posts: 6103 | From: PDX | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by Timothy the Obscure:
I've struggled with this, and apart from the purely political aspect--which is to fight Trumpism to my last breath--the question of what I would do if I had occasion to meet the guy face to face has come up. For a start, I'd follow George Fox's example with Oliver Cromwell and address him as "Friend Donald," which would surely piss him off to no end, which is kind of the point. And I'd invite him to sit with me in silent prayer. I think I'd hold his hand, just to freak him out a little more...not in a mean way, just because I don't think human contact is something he has a lot of experience with. Think of it as exposure therapy.

A passive aggressive 'love your enemy'?

I had the misfortune to be deputy headteacher when the head was a bully. It didn't take long before her tactics turned on me (I supported a bullied colleague). I kept evidence for a year and reported her for bullying and harassment. It was severe and she was quietly removed after a long and difficult time of investigation.

I worked hard at being kind and fair to her while not accepting the bullying. I never once replied in kind and never resorted to being passive aggressive. I'm proud of myself for surviving that awful period with integrity.

But nothing worked with her, she was a sociopath and played the victim when reported.

I still don't know what forgiving her would look like.

I bear no hate towards her and hope she's OK, but I worry for any person in her circle. She has no family or friends, all left her long ago.

I pity her, but forgive? I don't know how. If I met her I would be polite and move away asap.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12543 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Golden Key
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# 1468

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Timothy--

Sounds like you'd have conflicting purposes.

Plus if he has issues around touch, forcing it on him (even in a small way) would harm him further--and possibly push him to act out.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
--"I'm not giving up--and neither should you." --SNL

Posts: 17647 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I bear no hate towards her and hope she's OK,

To me that is forgiveness. Forgiveness doesn't mean entertaining a false belief that she wouldn't bully you or anyone else given half a chance, and doesn't mean you need to expose yourself to her company if it seems likely that would end badly.

It means that if she were to indicate she'd changed and wanted to talk you would likely reciprocate. Whereas someone who hadn't forgiven her would feel "It's too late for that", or wish some for form of redress that would harm her.

Forgiveness doesn't mean pretending it didn't happen, it simply means a lack of vindictiveness and hate.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Boogie, mdijon.

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Love wins

Posts: 16586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Garden Hermit
Shipmate
# 109

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When you listen to someone with problems you are trying to detect 'what they are not saying'. Doctors often have people declare a trivial illness first and then get round to the serious one later. What people say and do is what they think you want them to say and do. Often its not them. People reveal their personalities over time, sometimes a really long time. Trump, Corbyn, May, Putin, Clinton, Farage - I wonder what they are really like 1to 1 behind closed doors. The only information I can offer on Trump is from some British ex-employees that say he was easy to work for and easy to talk to.
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Russ
Old salt
# 120

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
as people keep saying, amorphic love aimed at heads of state is not a really effective kind of love.

Is there a tension between

- the idea that we should focus on those around us who care about how we act towards them, rather than on loving Africa or Republicans in what is inevitably a somewhat abstract way

- the idea that goodneighbourliness has no boundaries, that no-one is so outside our group that we can forget about loving them

?

My sense is that there shouldn't be, but that it's easy to state either in a way that suggests there is.

And maybe I did... (:

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Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas

Posts: 2978 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
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# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Ok, I apologize, I missed the tag at the end. Never attack issues when you have just woke up.

No worries
quote:

And it's not like even people who qualify as neighbors or allies are going to be easy to love all the time, either.

Few people are all good or all bad and that can sometimes be difficult to reconcile. But, as you say, recognising their worth helps.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

Posts: 16599 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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I'm still hung up on the giving respect part of this, and the seeing that this is required. Is respect required? Can it be conditional for someone like this president-select?

I am reminded of Stephen Jay Gould's recounting of a trial regarding one of the "creationist biology" laws in the 1980s (from my memory). He discussed how a teacher testified "that it would be my tendency to disobey [the law]" when pressed by lawyers and the judge on obedience to it. Taking very seriously the expectation of respect of the law and need (requirement) to disobey the expectation.

Might it be just as well to refuse to conform to ceremonies (or whatever it is) and not stand up when this newly elected man shows up? How else does one account for their position and not conform? Is disobedience to an expectation of respect not a requirement of us sometimes, when we aspire to do the most loving, right thing?

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Maybe I should stop to consider that I'm not worthy of an epiphany and just take what life has to offer
(formerly was just "no prophet") \_(ツ)_/

Posts: 10831 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528

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The respect bit is best summed up for me in "salute the uniform, not the one wearing it." If T walks in, I will stand out of common courtesy. I will NOT go over and start trying to strike up a conversation, or show him any optional marks of respect--just those that being born into the human race (and soon, being in that particular office) merit.

So I'll stand for the national anthem, as that has nothing to do with him, thank God. I will stand when the fellow walks in and everybody else does. I will get him a bloody soda if I'm getting them for the rest of the room. I will NOT chase him for an autograph, or get in a photo with him if I have a choice, or write fangirl crap about his visits to Wherever, or fail to oppose the crap he spreads so liberally across the world. And if he were fool enough to ask my opinion on anything, the answer would be something along the lines of "With the greatest respect, Mr. President, that's a load of shit."

It isn't necessary to break traditional ettiquette to show disapproval. Indeed, some of the strongest felt criticism is couched in all the required forms of respect. Because human beings are generally excellent at telling the difference between heartfelt respect and empty shows.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

Posts: 19956 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
# 15560

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quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
"With the greatest respect, Mr. President, that's a load of shit."

Film this when it happens.
Posts: 10831 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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Trump has none of my respect, zero. Wealth and great power count for naught if the person's character is warped.

But the way we treat the lowest of the low defines us, does it not? And he, in my view, is the lowest of the low.

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Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 12543 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Amanda B. Reckondwythe

Dressed for Church
# 5521

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You've heard of sedevacantists, haven't you? (Those who believe the Chair of St Peter is vacant -- sede vacante in Latin -- ever since the death of Pope Pius XII.)

I believe we need a casavacante movement -- the White House is empty.

Thus, in the highly unlikely event that my path and that of the TFO should cross, I would not acknowledge him in any way. No standing, no handshake, no "Hello, Mr. President," etc. The Amish call it shunning.

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"We're not in Wonderland anymore, Alice." – Charles Manson

Posts: 10218 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged
simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096

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ooh I like that Amanda B.

One of the difficulties I have with loving your neighbour by telling them the truth is that I never quite know what the truth is, even for myself. How am I supposed to tell the truth in love to another person?

O Lord, my heart is not lifted up,
my eyes are not raised too high;
I do not occupy myself with things
too great and too marvelous for me.
But I have calmed and quieted my soul,
like a weaned child with its mother;
my soul is like the weaned child that is with me.

O Israel, hope in the Lord
from this time on and forevermore.

(shamelessly copied from Psalm 131 NRSV The Bible Gateway)

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The opinions expressed above are transitory emotional responses and do not necessarily reflect the considered views of the author.

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