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Source: (consider it) Thread: Thank God ... you reckon?
Boogie

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I know a lot of blind and visually impaired people. One person went in for an operation yesterday. She can now see after years of blindness. Her guide Dog will retire and become a pet.

Wonderful, wonderful news.

But I am annoyed, sad and upset.

She's dancing around Facebook thanking God, what a wonderful God we have, God answers prayer, ohhhhh what an amazing God!

So, what are the other 3000 + blind and VI people in our FB group she is dancing around to think about this God, who apparently restores sight to the blind?

Lovely, incredible amazing day for her, brilliant science which has achieved it. But what utter bollocks she is speaking.

[ 23. November 2016, 06:56: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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Golden Key
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Boogie--

IMHO, let her have her moment.

I don't know how or why things happen. I don't have a problem with miracles, etc.--they just don't seem to happen often enough. So the people who didn't get the miracle are left with both their original problems and wondering why God (by any name) doesn't care about them. That's one reason some churches teach "dispensationalism" (basically, a time and place for everything): miracles mostly happened during a specific period of time, but rarely do anymore.

I'd probably get annoyed, too. I usually avoid the Praise thread in All Saints, for that reason. Things often don't go the way they should, and reading about other people's good fortune can be...depressing.

But she probably needs this state. Kind of like the glowy stage of conversion: beautiful, then fun, then annoying, then gradually fades.

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?"--Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon"
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Lamb Chopped
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Bit harsh, no? She isn't saying "Thank God for helping me, me, only me, and leaving you all out." She isn't claiming any special goodness or power to somehow make God favor her. All she's doing is saying thank you and rejoicing.

And she's doing it in a communication to a group of people she no doubt loves and knows well, among whom she has friends and well-wishers, people who are in fact interested in her outcome.

That sounds okay to me.

Look, I get the point about supposed tactlessness. But if you think about it, trying to protect blind people from possible causes of jealousy is infantilizing. It's like saying that my friends and family should never have had baby showers etc. during the years I suffered from infertility, or at least they ought to have kept them a deep dark secret from me.

That would have been to make me out such a child that I could not rejoice with those I loved simply because I wasn't the one so blessed.

I think your blind and low vision community is bigger-hearted than that. And adult enough to cope with a world where events don't fall out "fairly."

[ 23. November 2016, 07:33: Message edited by: Lamb Chopped ]

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Raptor Eye
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I wonder why it is the case that God is supposed to heal everybody or nobody at all?

I wonder why this annoys you so much?

Of course the skill of the surgeon was involved, but who says God was not involved too?

Jesus cured some people of blindness. They thanked and praised God too. Why not? They didn't get annoyed with him because everyone in the world wasn't healed all at once.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Boogie

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It annoys/saddens me that she is dancing around thanking God and saying God heals. 3000 + other people in our group continue life unhealed while she dances.

Neuroscience healed her, which WILL give great hope to those with her condition.

God? If he did so then 3000/1 is rubbish in any healer. Would you go to a surgeon who managed to heal 3000/1?

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mdijon
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It seems like neuroscience and God are in the same hole then. Because whichever one of them is to blame, 1 sees and 2,999 don't.

And likewise joyful praise to God and joyful praise of neuroscience are both equally tactless aren't they?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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The difference is that God could heal everyone. He has chosen, apparently, to heal this one person and tough shit to the rest.

That is the problem here. If God's so good, if he makes the blind see, what's he got against the other 2999 that he can't be arsed to do the same for them?

And who said this was anything to do with tact? It's to do with the apparent capriciousness of God, and how the corollary of him being so good to person A that he restored their sight is that he wasn't so good to everyone else. Why? What's he got against them?

These seem perfectly reasonable problems with the miracle narrative to me.

[ 23. November 2016, 08:29: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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mr cheesy
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I'm the grinch, but I don't believe we should be thanking God for good health or healing, for unexpected wealth, for new jobs, new houses, baby births etc.

To say that God has blessed me by healing my sickness is to say that somehow God has not blessed those other people who will never have access to the advanced medical proceedure. Which is an unthinking and backhanded way to say that God loves me in my wealth more than he loves those people in their poverty - because look at all the lovely shiny things he's given me! It must be because of how hard I've prayed!

I take seriously the Christ who healed and told people to keep quiet about it, and the one who said that the blessings we should be looking for are the ones that nobody would ask for and nobody would celebrate.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Martin60
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Bless her in it Boogie. In her ignorant joy. Forgive her. Thank God for His provision. Of neuroscience. Of progress all round. Including and especially in the miraculous liberal reconciliation with Him that you are party to.

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Love wins

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fletcher christian

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It is possible to be thankful with the weight of 'why me?' which isn't necessary;y about cursing your neighbours. There's good Biblical precedent too. I do wonder though if there is an element of projection. Do we really know what the other 2,999 think, or are we assuming?

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mr cheesy
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Of course it is natural to be happy. Just don't ascribe your healing to God.

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quetzalcoatl
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This is a standard critique of theism, isn't it? Man stumbles out of earthquake, shouting praise God, while 20, 000 lie dead around him.

But it's human nature, to be solipsist. As an initial reaction, it doesn't irritate me.

After that, I'm not convinced that theists really believe that God could cure everyone, or could stop the earthquake. Well, it's a nominal kind of belief.

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no path

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Erroneous Monk
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To (probably mis)quote Hannibal Lecter, typhoid and swans come from the same place.

I unfortunately have both RP and IIH and therefore haven't seen well enough to hold a driving licence since I was 27. Fortunately, I still see well enough in good light to do lots of other things. Very fortunately, my son has not inherited the RP - my daughter may have, but if she does, hopefully her symptoms will be no worse than mine. And hopefully we will have found a way to correct the genetic mutation before she has to worry about passing it on to her children.

I have, admittedly over a long time, learned to bless God for both the "fortunate" and the "unfortunate" aspects of my condition. And I am enormously grateful for the skill and dedication of the many doctors, nurses and researchers who have helped me and my family.

Complicated, isn't it?

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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It is possible to be thankful with the weight of 'why me?' which isn't necessary;y about cursing your neighbours. There's good Biblical precedent too. I do wonder though if there is an element of projection. Do we really know what the other 2,999 think, or are we assuming?

I'm not sure it's about what the other 2999 think. It's what ascribing the healing to God says about him.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm not sure it's about what the other 2999 think. It's what ascribing the healing to God says about him.

Arguing against myself, it might say nothing much about this individual. Ascribing healing to God might just be a figure of speech; it might be a way for him to process good fortune; it might be his general approach to life (celebrating good things).

I'm not sure those things are necessarily bad but I'm not sure that they are necessarily from God either. And it bothers me what it says about us (rather than picking on any one person who might be as honest as the day is long) and our theology when we use this kind of language.

It seems like an accident of birth that I'm able to access cheap eye care. I'm sure that if I lived in a lot of places (maybe a majority?) I'd effectively be blind even though my "condition" is easily corrected with glasses.

Am I here because of the "grace of God"? In a colloquial sense I am - there isn't anything much I've done that leads me to have access to good opticians. I can't point to a quantity of prayer than has lifted me beyond the masses. And I know that many of my colleagues and neighbours are similarly benefiting from good eyecare without any reference to God.

But the problem with it not being an outworking of God's goodness is that one takes these things for granted if unwilling to plant them as unasked-for and un-called-for gifts of grace.

So for me it is a bit of an oxymoron - there is a danger in ascribing good things to God that we all regularly fall into. There is a moral problem with calling things gifts from God that have been produced from the sweat of people living lives of poverty and injustice. And yet at the same time there is something positive about seeing positive things as being more than just chance. There is something positive about being aware and being grateful for things we have that others don't have.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It is possible to be thankful with the weight of 'why me?' which isn't necessary;y about cursing your neighbours. There's good Biblical precedent too. I do wonder though if there is an element of projection. Do we really know what the other 2,999 think, or are we assuming?

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm not sure it's about what the other 2999 think. It's what ascribing the healing to God says about him.

Why stop at healing power then? We have the whole of theodicy to rail about. Almost nothing in the world is fair and even handed. Why pick on a blind woman with a healed eye as the occasion of annoyance - we should be annoyed with all theists for talking bollocks and having the temerity to believe in God with all this starvation, death and destruction around us.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Of course it is natural to be happy. Just don't ascribe your healing to God.

Exactly.

I am truly thrilled for her and of course she will be celebrating!

But ascribing her healing to God is putting two fingers up to everyone else who God didn't heal imo. What could the reason be - God clearly loves her so much more than the others? or maybe she had more faith, or more people prayed for her? whatever, it makes me sad for those VI people witnessing it.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
It seems like neuroscience and God are in the same hole then. Because whichever one of them is to blame, 1 sees and 2,999 don't.

And likewise joyful praise to God and joyful praise of neuroscience are both equally tactless aren't they?

No, because there is no mystery in neuroscience/surgery etc. Or is there?

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Garden. Room. Walk

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:


But ascribing her healing to God is putting two fingers up to everyone else who God didn't heal imo. What could the reason be - God clearly loves her so much more than the others? or maybe she had more faith, or more people prayed for her? whatever, it makes me sad for those VI people witnessing it.

I know, such things make me mad too. Not that it is much of a consolation, but it seems to be a truism that loud expressions of joy such as this are often preludes to bouts of sadness.

I guess the challenge on a personal level is how to be positive to that person without joining in with all the overbearing blessing talk whilst looking out for sudden changes in their outlook if/when they have a relapse or something.

Personally, such things are why I don't go on facebook. But then I'm not the cheeriest person to be around.

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
Of course it is natural to be happy. Just don't ascribe your healing to God.

Exactly.

I am truly thrilled for her and of course she will be celebrating!

But ascribing her healing to God is putting two fingers up to everyone else who God didn't heal imo. What could the reason be - God clearly loves her so much more than the others? or maybe she had more faith, or more people prayed for her? whatever, it makes me sad for those VI people witnessing it.

So what are you doing about it?

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Love wins

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mr cheesy
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what are you doing about it?

What, other than ranting and wrestling with the issue on a forum that is unlikely to affect the person concerned?

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overheard on a Welsh bus-stop: Jesus don't care about you, he's only interested in your soul

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what are you doing about it?

What, other than ranting and wrestling with the issue on a forum that is unlikely to affect the person concerned?
Yes.

Bless the Ship. These are thoughts I honestly don't want to share with anyone else, I wouldn't dream of throwing such cold water on her joy.

What am I doing for VI people? I raise Guide Dog puppies. I take a blind man with me for long walks on the Pennine Way on Saturdays so that he can enjoy the walk and his dog can have a free run. I'm training to become a 'my guide', which is a human Guide Dog.


My Guide

[ 23. November 2016, 10:41: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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fletcher christian

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Isn't it amazing how the problem of evil manifests itself even in the simple joy of a woman who regains her sight. Really, I think as someone else upthread noted, it says a hell of a lot more about us than it does about God.

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Staretz Silouan

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So what are you doing about it?

What, other than ranting and wrestling with the issue on a forum that is unlikely to affect the person concerned?
Yes.

Bless the Ship. These are thoughts I honestly don't want to share with anyone else, I wouldn't dream of throwing such cold water on her joy.

What am I doing for VI people? I raise Guide Dog puppies. I take a blind man with me for long walks on the Pennine Way on Saturdays so that he can enjoy the walk and his dog can have a free run. I'm training to become a 'my guide', which is a human Guide Dog.

My Guide

Draft an inclusive response that minimizes alienation of her and maximizes encouragement to them? She's intoxicated anyway. Share it here first?

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Love wins

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by fletcher christian:
It is possible to be thankful with the weight of 'why me?' which isn't necessary;y about cursing your neighbours. There's good Biblical precedent too. I do wonder though if there is an element of projection. Do we really know what the other 2,999 think, or are we assuming?

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I'm not sure it's about what the other 2999 think. It's what ascribing the healing to God says about him.

Why stop at healing power then? We have the whole of theodicy to rail about. Almost nothing in the world is fair and even handed. Why pick on a blind woman with a healed eye as the occasion of annoyance - we should be annoyed with all theists for talking bollocks and having the temerity to believe in God with all this starvation, death and destruction around us.

Aye. And I often am.

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Draft an inclusive response that minimizes alienation of her and maximizes encouragement to them? She's intoxicated anyway. Share it here first?

That was easy.

"You can see again? How absolutely wonderful!"

But my inner thought is. "But please leave God out of it, this can't possibly be God's doing." And all the alleluia' s "see God does heal!' comments are nauseating. How atheists are dealing with them internally I do not know - 'tho maybe they don't worry and just dismiss her as another crackpot.

What would God say on the thread?

[ 23. November 2016, 11:33: Message edited by: Boogie ]

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Martin60
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Hey! That's my line! Bloody well done Boogie. All round. We are in dubious battle. Your two year nightmare with the demon head on the Love Your Enemies thread needed acknowledgement too.

You found a way to be positive to her. The bigger struggle by orders of magnitude is to collectively encourage the rational majority whose sight will never improve.

I don't know.

Somehow to be in helpless sighted solidarity with them in their struggle to be positive, acceptant, grateful for their lot which will not improve while for a rationally miraculous one it does?

Encourage them to fully express themselves as we do each other on the Hell Cancer thread?

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Love wins

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mdijon
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I think that if one has a major paradigm shift it doesn't make sense to partially unveil it in response to a detailed point.

It's a bit like getting stuck on the possibilities of the second coming only to discover that one protagonist doesn't believe in God in the first place. Or arguing about whether the use of a marble board results in tasty puff pastry, only to find that the person arguing against marble boards actually dislikes all forms of pastry.

If one is going to launch in it is perhaps better to say "I don't believe in a God who intervenes in the world" rather than personalize the argument about the impossibility of intervention in a particular case. The alternative, of course, is just to charitably stay quiet if it won't help anyone.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Aye. And I often am.

What about the other times? Is there anything intellectual that shifts or is it just exhaustion?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
I'm the grinch, but I don't believe we should be thanking God for good health or healing, for unexpected wealth, for new jobs, new houses, baby births etc.

To say that God has blessed me by healing my sickness is to say that somehow God has not blessed those other people who will never have access to the advanced medical proceedure. Which is an unthinking and backhanded way to say that God loves me in my wealth more than he loves those people in their poverty - because look at all the lovely shiny things he's given me! It must be because of how hard I've prayed!

I take seriously the Christ who healed and told people to keep quiet about it, and the one who said that the blessings we should be looking for are the ones that nobody would ask for and nobody would celebrate.

I disagree that it says anything about how hard someone prayed, or that they are more special or loved than others. Quite the opposite, in fact. It is usually humble adoration, praise and thanks to the one living God, who the individual believes has brought them healing - whether or not others believe that. Why should it be silent, rather than joy expressed fully? Of course it should be ascribed to God.

To demand healing for everyone now, a perfect world now, is to demand the second coming of Christ. Are we ready for that? Isn't God patient with us, wanting us all to have the chance to make a positive difference while we have the chance, whatever disadvantages we have?

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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quetzalcoatl
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mdijon wrote:

quote:
Why pick on a blind woman with a healed eye as the occasion of annoyance - we should be annoyed with all theists for talking bollocks and having the temerity to believe in God with all this starvation, death and destruction around us.
I think I went through that, as I detached myself from Christianity, well, for a while I did. But then, the world is full of people with daft or strange beliefs, and there is no point in going round, being annoyed with them all. Humans are not rational, au fond. In a way, it's quite diverting.

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no path

Posts: 9515 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Hey! That's my line! Bloody well done Boogie. All round. We are in dubious battle. Your two year nightmare with the demon head on the Love Your Enemies thread needed acknowledgement too.

You found a way to be positive to her. The bigger struggle by orders of magnitude is to collectively encourage the rational majority whose sight will never improve.

I don't know.

Somehow to be in helpless sighted solidarity with them in their struggle to be positive, acceptant, grateful for their lot which will not improve while for a rationally miraculous one it does?

Encourage them to fully express themselves as we do each other on the Hell Cancer thread?

Thank you.

I'm a positive person and few things get to me like this one did.

God is so bloody annoying! Giving us all this amazing universe (and Jesus) and then leaving us to it - how dare he/she/it!

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Garden. Room. Walk

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quetzalcoatl
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Or not.

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no path

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76

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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Aye. And I often am.

What about the other times? Is there anything intellectual that shifts or is it just exhaustion?
Inconsistency

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
The difference is that God could heal everyone. He has chosen, apparently, to heal this one person and tough shit to the rest..

These seem perfectly reasonable problems with the miracle narrative to me.

This is why a Calvinist system where God is in absolute control and everything that happens is God's will ends up in such an ethical and moral morass-- it inevitably makes God the author of sin-- or in this case, suffering.

I find inaugurated theology more helpful-- the notion that the Kingdom is both "now and not yet"-- and healing/not healing is just one evidence of that. It's interesting that John's gospel always refers to Jesus' miracles not as miracles per se or really, really good things that happen but as signs.. Signs that point us to something that is becoming but not here yet.

Because we live in a time when the kingdom is both "now and not yet", that means that there are signs of both Kingdoms. We see signs of the "kingdom of this world"-- the world that is broken by sin and suffering, when things are not done "God's way" but all of creation has been corrupted by Satan. We see injustice, alienation, disease, sin-- and blindness (physical or spiritual). But we also see signs of "the coming Kingdom"-- restoration, reconciliation, healing-- including sight for the blind. Those things are as yet only an appetizer-- a foretaste of the coming Kingdom. One day the things of this world-- sin, suffering, injustice, and disease-- will be defeated. But today we have only these few signs of hope.

There is mourning and there is dancing-- and, as a friend once said, "they don't always take turns". Rejoice with your sighted friend, and mourn with those still living in darkness. And pray for the coming Kingdom, when all will see and all things will be restored.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 10910 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
But ascribing her healing to God is putting two fingers up to everyone else who God didn't heal imo.

Do they feel the same way, or have you taken it upon yourself to decide what they (should) feel, then feel it for them? Seems kinda presumptuous.

quote:
No, because there is no mystery in neuroscience/surgery etc. Or is there?
Of course there is. What heals one person might fail to heal another person presenting with exactly the same symptoms. I suggest you read one ore more of the books of Oliver Sacks. Start with The Man Who Mistook His Wife for a Hat. Plenty of mystery to go around.

quote:
What would God say on the thread?
MYOFB?

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The alternative, of course, is just to charitably stay quiet if it won't help anyone.

Dingdingdingdingdingding. We have a winner.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Nicolemr
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# 28

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How about thanking God for the skill of the doctors and the genius of the scientists who discovered the healing techniques?

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On pilgrimage in the endless realms of Cyberia, currently traveling by ship. Now with live journal!

Posts: 11621 | From: New York City "The City Carries On" | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
How about thanking God for the skill of the doctors and the genius of the scientists who discovered the healing techniques?

Absolutely.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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sabine
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# 3861

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I can related to Boogie's original post and also to Lamb Chopped post.

I am visually impaired, and one of my eyes is lost (at least until divine intervention or something new in medicine which may not happen in my lifetime). My other eye is at risk, as well. And I have a couple of other medical difficulties.

At times, when I hear another person claiming their good fortune, I feel alone and vulnerable. That's the emotional side of me, and I acknowledge that it doesn't feel good to be the one who hasn't had the benefit of a remarkable cure.

Intellectually, I know that everyone's good fortune should be celebrated--even if s/he is waving it tactlessly in my face. Spontaneous joy sometimes momentarily blocks out good manners, for both the personn tactlessly celebrating and those who aren't responding.

I admit I'm not always good at getting over my own feelings quickly enough to be spontaneous with someone else's good fortune, but it's a goal.

Meanwhile, I'm hoping the person Boogie mentioned has been able to give support to others in the group--or will be able to continue once the personal ecstatic moment has passed.

sabine

[ 23. November 2016, 14:53: Message edited by: sabine ]

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"Hunger looks like the man that hunger is killing." Eduardo Galeano

Posts: 5807 | From: the US Heartland | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
How about thanking God for the skill of the doctors and the genius of the scientists who discovered the healing techniques?

I think that's primarily the way God heals these days, and it is part of what is meant by, "Go thou and do likewise."

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Trickydicky
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# 16550

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A friend of mine's husband died a year ago, after 35 years of marriage. Now, she has friends who are looking forward to their ruby and golden weddings. It hurts her that she won't get to that stage. It's a grief. But she doesn't want the others not to celebrate - she's glad for them. So, from the original post, give thanks to God. Others whose sight hasn't been restored will be glad for your friend. Just allow them their own private pang of 'but I still can't see'.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Nicolemr:
How about thanking God for the skill of the doctors and the genius of the scientists who discovered the healing techniques?

As mentioned on a the heavenly prayer thread, our unborn granddaughter has recently been diagnosed with a constellation of several very rare (1 in 960) and deadly heart defects (similar to hydroplastic left heart syndrome..

Just over 20 years ago her condition was 100% fatal. While the odds are still stacked against her, today there is hope thanks to a series of 3 surgical interventions. There are adults with HLHS who are graduating, going off to college, getting married.

As we've come to terms with this horrible diagnosis, I've been wrestling with all the implications/questions on this thread. And yes, for the first few weeks it was difficult to be around our pregnant friends and those with happy, healthy babies or grandbabies. And I asked the "why us?" question of God quite a bit. Mourning and dancing not taking turns.

But as we've come to accept the diagnosis, and prepare for our granddaughter's birth/first of three surgeries, we've been able to get back on track with rejoicing in new life, for however long we have her. And as I've made that transition, I've found myself thinking about those three surgeries-- each of which has a name (Norwood, Glenn, Fontan). In all my research, I haven't found any explanation for the names, but I assume they are named for the surgeons who developed them. Over the last few weeks, I've found myself thinking about these unknown surgeons, and the courage it took some 20 years ago for them, their young patients, and their patient's families, to decide to embark on finding a treatment that would bring hope in a hopeless situation. I find myself praying for Drs Norwood, Glenn, and Fontan, whoever/wherever they might be. May their lives be blessed and their names honored by all who find hope.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 10910 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
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# 16840

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Boogie, Hope you don't mind my mention but reading from posts back along it appeared that you made a determined effort to ditch your faith, or maybe lost it.
Reading this has though left me wondering if you still remember a couple of snatches from the Gospel. The occasion when one of the 10 healed Lepers turned back to thank Jesus? The other slightly less relevant passage which comes to mind is that of the lost penny and --'more joy in Heaven when one sinner repents'.
Thing is, the the pivotal issue never is about the millions healed who never give thanks to God, (presumably because they don't think such exists), nor is it about the ones never healed. It is about where, someone granted what they consider a happy event, ultimately wants to focus their joy and thanksgiving.

That isn't to say such a person isn't also grateful to the people and technology that has brought said event into being.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Stercus Tauri
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# 16668

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It was Rev Ron Ferguson who once wrote that when you are praying for help, you had better understand the difference between healing and curing. I have no idea if I have been cured of cancer or not, and nobody can tell me, but I think that I have experienced a healing. I don't know what it's like to be blind and I don't know if any of the uncured people can say they are healed. The Bible has plenty to say about public rejoicing after a healing, but I tend to ponder these things in my heart while I try to understand the experiences of others. I understand the reason for the celebration that so annoyed Boogie; my own inclination is to celebrate the gift quietly, hoping that others are able to benefit from the same gift that some of us believe that God has placed in the hands of surgeons and others. Sounds much more pious than I really am, but I'm not sure how else to put it!

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Thay haif said. Quhat say thay, Lat thame say (George Keith, 5th Earl Marischal)

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lilBuddha
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# 14333

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Sometimes I love the Ship and sometimes I get so angry with her.
Boogie came here to discuss her dismay. That is part of what this place is for. She should not be chided for that.
Her contention is a valid one, one might disagree and that is fine, but the condemnations and such are ridiculous.
Why things seemingly contrary to God's nature is a question you all should be asking. If you find an answer that contents you, good for you.
Suggestions that she should be silent negate her concerns, how is this right?
And how do you know her concerns won't help anyone? Asking the question could bring an answer that helps someone else maintain their faith rather than lose it because no one says anything.

[ 23. November 2016, 19:40: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Martin60
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# 368

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She's a big girl and we all play the games people play roles here, I play several. We resonate with each other, challenge each other, comfort and encourage and support and kick the living shit out of each other's posts. This is Purgatory after all.

[ 23. November 2016, 20:56: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

Posts: 16587 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

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# 953

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Purgatory is the place for serious debate. I have to assume Boogie knows that, and if she didn't want her post dissected and disagreed with and challenged, she wouldn't have posted it in purg. It infantilizes her to treat her as if she doesn't realize what goes on in purg, or has to be protected from it.

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God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean. --Acts 10:28

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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119

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I have for many years been involved in volunteer work for the print-handicapped, with a Christian organisation recording books and magazines, and with a secular organisation reading newspapers live-to-air.

Selective healing does not exhaust the theodicean ramifications of blindness.

There is the more fundamental issue of micro-organisms presumably designed and created by God to cause blindness, as in the cases of trachoma, or granular conjunctivitis, and river blindness (onchocerciasis).

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Brenda Clough
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# 18061

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I have lost some of the sight in my left eye. Asked my retinologist about cloned cell implants, which he says may be on line in five years or so. If I don't age out, I may be in line for them. Must ask about the kind that allow you to shoot laser rays...

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Science fiction and fantasy writer with a Patreon page

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hatless

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# 3365

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Recovering your sight must feel amazing, and certainly deserves some dancing. Forgetting others is forgivable for a while; you'd hope they would be remembered and supported even better after the excitement died down.

The real problem is the theology that imagines God looking in and deciding what to do today. It's fine to think of God as close and involved in life, and for mountains, healing, lucky escapes and good music to lead us Godwards. Cancer, betrayal, and politics tend to push us in the other direction. It's the idea of God doling out gifts and neglect that is the problem.

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My crazy theology in novel form

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