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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Thank God ... you reckon?
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Purgatory is the place for serious debate.
If you and Martin go back and read my post, you will find that I do not have a problem with discussing or disagreeing with her.
This
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
The alternative, of course, is just to charitably stay quiet if it won't help anyone.
Dingdingdingdingdingding. We have a winner.
to me seems less discussion and more "If you cannot say something nice, don't say anything" which is not debate but admonition.
I do realise this is not the entirety of your posts, but it stands pretty starkly.
[ 23. November 2016, 22:54: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I took mdijon to be saying to stay quiet in real life, not in Purgatory. Perhaps I mistook his/her meaning.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
That is exactly what I meant. It was a point in the thread where I took the discussion to be about how to respond in real life.
I did give another alternative.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I apologise to you both.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Thanks, but really no need - no offense taken to a challenge on a debate thread made in good faith.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
I wrestled with God for over 2 years after I lost sight in one eye with no guarantee that the other wouldn't got the same way-I was constantly tempted to "curse God and die" those words were literally in my mind a lot as I feared total darkness. Thanks be to God, a lot of treatment over the two years on both eyes and finally an operation has meant that I have good vision (just normal reading glasses for somebody 40+)
The skill of my amazing ophthalmologist meant that I had the best possible outcome-despite having really shitty luck in the way that one rogue and bizarrely strong blood vessel gave me so much trouble. Yes the laser and the surgery brought about my healing but as it says in Ecclesiasticus all healing comes from God, God made the doctors and the medicinal plants and herbs, only a fool would despise them.'
So yeah, I thank God that I can see, have at me.
I am desperately sorry and have enormous empathy for those who can't see and for whom there are no viable treatment options but I don't think that means I can't be grateful that my sight has been restored and preserved.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I wrestled with God for over 2 years after I lost sight in one eye with no guarantee that the other wouldn't got the same way-I was constantly tempted to "curse God and die" those words were literally in my mind a lot as I feared total darkness. Thanks be to God, a lot of treatment over the two years on both eyes and finally an operation has meant that I have good vision (just normal reading glasses for somebody 40+)
The skill of my amazing ophthalmologist meant that I had the best possible outcome-despite having really shitty luck in the way that one rogue and bizarrely strong blood vessel gave me so much trouble. Yes the laser and the surgery brought about my healing but as it says in Ecclesiasticus all healing comes from God, God made the doctors and the medicinal plants and herbs, only a fool would despise them.'
So yeah, I thank God that I can see, have at me.
I am desperately sorry and have enormous empathy for those who can't see and for whom there are no viable treatment options but I don't think that means I can't be grateful that my sight has been restored and preserved.
That is great news and of course you are right.
But would you shout your joy and relief all over a FB group dedicated mainly to VI and blind people, 'loudly' thanking God and advocating prayer for healing?
I also had laser surgery, five years ago, and I now have 20/20 vision, before that my glasses cost £600 a pair as my prescription was so complicated, and I needed new ones every year.
God didn't seem to come into the equation at all imo.
quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
I have for many years been involved in volunteer work for the print-handicapped, with a Christian organisation recording books and magazines, and with a secular organisation reading newspapers live-to-air.
Selective healing does not exhaust the theodicean ramifications of blindness.
There is the more fundamental issue of micro-organisms presumably designed and created by God to cause blindness, as in the cases of trachoma, or granular conjunctivitis, and river blindness (onchocerciasis).
Yes, I agree. The questions on God and healing go well beyond any sudden healing.
The very mechanisms which create also destroy - a hard universe this God has created. I can only assume she had no other choice to enable free will.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
I took mdijon to be saying to stay quiet in real life, not in Purgatory. Perhaps I mistook his/her meaning.
Yes, I took it that way too.
I did, of course, keep quiet in real life. This is the only place I have mentioned my thoughts. But, even after sleeping on it, I remain angry with God and annoyed with Christians who praise God long and loud as if God is able to heal if we only pray (haha - where DO they get such ideas? Do I need to rail against Jesus too?)
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
[qb] I wrestled with God for over 2 years after I lost sight in one eye with no guarantee that the other wouldn't got the same way-I was constantly tempted to "curse God and die" those words were literally in my mind a lot as I feared total darkness. Thanks be to God, a lot of treatment over the two years on both eyes and finally an operation has meant that I have good vision (just normal reading glasses for somebody 40+)
The skill of my amazing ophthalmologist meant that I had the best possible outcome-despite having really shitty luck in the way that one rogue and bizarrely strong blood vessel gave me so much trouble. Yes the laser and the surgery brought about my healing but as it says in Ecclesiasticus all healing comes from God, God made the doctors and the medicinal plants and herbs, only a fool would despise them.'
So yeah, I thank God that I can see, have at me.
I am desperately sorry and have enormous empathy for those who can't see and for whom there are no viable treatment options but I don't think that means I can't be grateful that my sight has been restored and preserved.
That is great news and of course you are right.
But would you shout your joy and relief all over a FB group dedicated mainly to VI and blind people, 'loudly' thanking God and advocating prayer for healing?
I also had laser surgery, five years ago, and I now have 20/20 vision, before that my glasses cost £600 a pair as my prescription was so complicated, and I needed new ones every year.
God didn't seem to come into the equation at all imo.
Just a clarification that is a bit of a tangent but important for context I think. I didn't have "laser surgery" to end the need for glasses. I had laser photocoagulation-where 1000s of burns were made on my retina over many many appointments to try to stop the blood vessels in my eye from bleeding. The surgery I had removed the vitreous jelly from my eye amongst other things. Oh and 600 pounds ha that's nothing I was paying $800 a fortnight for over 2 years. Prior to the op, my eye could not detect light from dark.
No I wouldn't promote prayer or trumpet my success etc all over a FB page for VI people but your OP objected to the fact that somebody attributed their healing to God as much as to the insensitive way in which it was done.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512
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Posted
[skeptic alert]It struck me some time ago that God appears to provide divine intervention with a frequency precisely matching that of coincidence.
In real life terms, I don't go pissing on people's parades about that. I do try to not be a prick. I don't always succeed.
Personal reflection - related to the observation here.
I am reminded of the last time I attended church. Pretty much the day that put the nail in the coffin of my belief. Please note, these stories are the end of a much bigger journey and not the be-all and end-all, or proof positive or anything like that. Just the confirmation that I had nothing in common with these people.
Firstly, a guy makes his way to the front to share how God has helped him. He had had some pain in his wrist for about a week, and got people to pray for him. The next morning the pain had gone and he wanted to share this and testify to the healing power of God for us all to believe in.
He then took his crutches and made his way back to his seat. Back still broken and legs at about 15% capacity. But he didn't have a sore wrist. I'm in awe of how this guy has learned to live and carry on with his broken back. Don't get me wrong. But it felt to me that a god who healed a sore wrist and overlooked the broken back has a screw loose.
Then someone else shared how one of the members had recently had a chronic drug resistant infection of a wound, but God had cleared that. Putting aside the immediate thought of false negative results on wound swabs (which it turned out to be), I couldn't help but wonder that if that was the case, wouldn't it have been better for God to sort that shit out before she had her lower leg amputated, rather than 6 weeks post op?
These are different stories from Boogies. But what we have in common is the sense that sometime people rush to credit God.
I guess for those who believe in God, that raises the question of when to ascribe thankfulness to God, and how to express that.
[/skeptic alert]
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Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
A resounding 'hear, hear' to the OP! I would have been firm in speaking up about medical skill etc, but then, of course, I would not be in a church group to say anything. Medical techniques keep improving and it is these that will provide better remedies for eye conditions, nothing to do with God, say I - very firmly!!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Interesting to note how many of us have vision impairments.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
[skeptic alert]It struck me some time ago that God appears to provide divine intervention with a frequency precisely matching that of coincidence.
In real life terms, I don't go pissing on people's parades about that. I do try to not be a prick. I don't always succeed.
Personal reflection - related to the observation here.
I am reminded of the last time I attended church. Pretty much the day that put the nail in the coffin of my belief. Please note, these stories are the end of a much bigger journey and not the be-all and end-all, or proof positive or anything like that. Just the confirmation that I had nothing in common with these people.
Firstly, a guy makes his way to the front to share how God has helped him. He had had some pain in his wrist for about a week, and got people to pray for him. The next morning the pain had gone and he wanted to share this and testify to the healing power of God for us all to believe in.
He then took his crutches and made his way back to his seat. Back still broken and legs at about 15% capacity. But he didn't have a sore wrist. I'm in awe of how this guy has learned to live and carry on with his broken back. Don't get me wrong. But it felt to me that a god who healed a sore wrist and overlooked the broken back has a screw loose.
Then someone else shared how one of the members had recently had a chronic drug resistant infection of a wound, but God had cleared that. Putting aside the immediate thought of false negative results on wound swabs (which it turned out to be), I couldn't help but wonder that if that was the case, wouldn't it have been better for God to sort that shit out before she had her lower leg amputated, rather than 6 weeks post op?
These are different stories from Boogies. But what we have in common is the sense that sometime people rush to credit God.
I guess for those who believe in God, that raises the question of when to ascribe thankfulness to God, and how to express that.
[/skeptic alert]
I don't have a problem with anything you've said here. What I objected to in the OP was the notion that you're not allowed to praise & thank God because you're speaking bollocks. I'm not a fan of trying to prove that God exists because he healed somebody-that's ridiculous and yep plenty of non-Christians have had similar experiences with eye disease to mine and sadly some have been blinded or left with quite severe VI.
I don't care whether anybody else believes that God healed me or they think I'm totally mad-I just defend my right to say that I thank God as well as having access to modern ophthalmology for my sight.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I don't have a problem with anything you've said here. What I objected to in the OP was the notion that you're not allowed to praise & thank God because you're speaking bollocks.
I read the OP as suggesting that someone was feeling angry and upset by the public joy because they were uncomfortable with it. I didn't see that they were saying that anyone was "not allowed" to do it, simply a discussion about it.
You are allowed to do it, I just don't know that it is a helpful idea and if you consistently did it in my face I am quite likely to get annoyed with you.
quote:
I'm not a fan of trying to prove that God exists because he healed somebody-that's ridiculous and yep plenty of non-Christians have had similar experiences with eye disease to mine and sadly some have been blinded or left with quite severe VI.
I don't care whether anybody else believes that God healed me or they think I'm totally mad-I just defend my right to say that I thank God as well as having access to modern ophthalmology for my sight.
But don't you think this "not caring" is also a bit of a problem? Can't you see that this loud praising is making other people uncomfortable?
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
A resounding 'hear, hear' to the OP! I would have been firm in speaking up about medical skill etc, but then, of course, I would not be in a church group to say anything. Medical techniques keep improving and it is these that will provide better remedies for eye conditions, nothing to do with God, say I - very firmly!!
SusanDoris, a question. Do you feel thankful to anything beyond the individual doctor and medical science advances?
What I mean is that presumably it is possible to feel thankful without it needing to be directed at a deity at all. I can be thankful for being alive, I can be thankful for living here rather than somewhere else, I can be thankful for family. I'm not sure that necessarily needs to be directed at someone/something.
Maybe this is a bit about semantics and language, but the notion of "being grateful" and/or "being thankful" seems to be a healthy thing. What do you think?
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arse
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
But don't you think this "not caring" is also a bit of a problem? Can't you see that this loud praising is making other people uncomfortable?
I said I didn't care if people believed that God had cured me or not(in response to the previous post that was going on about curing being coincidence not God), that's very different from saying that I don't care if people are uncomfortable.
I'm not drawing any conclusions about either God or myself on the basis of my healing, just giving thanks for it. Why, in fact is it any more of a problem that I thanked God for my sight THAN with Boogie saying medical care fixed her sight. Her treatment can't fix everyone so the same level of discomfort should apply.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
This is the only place I have mentioned my thoughts. But, even after sleeping on it, I remain angry with God and annoyed with Christians who praise God long and loud as if God is able to heal if we only pray (haha - where DO they get such ideas? Do I need to rail against Jesus too?)
I see a big difference between somebody praising God for healing and implying that God will heal if you pray hard enough. I HATE that-if that's what the person was doing I would have tried to rebuke them for that and also been annoyed.
To my mind if, the day after your cure you praise God that's one thing and I think also that you can cut somebody a bit of slack after they receive the miracle of sight/sight restoration but I agree that it is wicked to give the impression that it is your fault for not praying hard enough or not being Godly enough etc if you are not healed.
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I'm not drawing any conclusions about either God or myself on the basis of my healing, just giving thanks for it. Why, in fact is it any more of a problem that I thanked God for my sight THAN with Boogie saying medical care fixed her sight. Her treatment can't fix everyone so the same level of discomfort should apply.
No - the medical profession is doing its level best to heal every one of them and certainly would if they could.
God? There is no rhyme nor reason to healing by God or God's 'hand' in surgery. Could you say he's doing his level best to heal the other 2999 people in the group?
[ 24. November 2016, 10:28: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
A resounding 'hear, hear' to the OP! I would have been firm in speaking up about medical skill etc, but then, of course, I would not be in a church group to say anything. Medical techniques keep improving and it is these that will provide better remedies for eye conditions, nothing to do with God, say I - very firmly!!
It isn't a Church group. It's a group of people who have Guide Dogs. It has nothing whatsoever to do with any faith. Most of our chat is about dogs and pups.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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goperryrevs
Shipmtae
# 13504
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
To say that God has blessed me by healing my sickness is to say that somehow God has not blessed those other people who will never have access to the advanced medical proceedure.
Theologically, I have come to disagree with this. I remember reading Philip Yancey talking about this sort of thing in one of his many books where he wrestles with theodicy. A conclusion that he came to was essentially that it was legitimate (even correct) to:
a) Thank God for good whenever it appears.
b) Not blame God for evil whenever it appears.
This seems contradictory, and I totally understand the logical step that both you and Boogie have made. That was my initial reaction to Yancey's statement, when I saw it as letting God off the hook, or rationalising.
I've come to see that there's a deep truth there, however. I don't think that it's possible to wrestle with theology without realising that you just have to be able to accept paradoxes, and this is one of them.
God IS Good. God is the source of all Goodness. Boogie, your friend's sight being healed is wonderful Good, so it is right and proper to thank God as the source of all Goodness.
God is not evil. God does not wish suffering on us. Good is not the source of evil, even though God allows evil. God is big enough to take our anger and indignation about the existence of evil and suffering, but it does not originate from God. Thanking God for Good things does not mean God is the source of Bad things.
It's about the source / origination of good and evil. It initially feels counter intuitive, and I get that it sounds a bit hand-wavy. But for me, it helps. Plus, what cliffdweller said about Calvinism & miracles/signs.
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"Keep your eye on the donut, not on the hole." - David Lynch
Posts: 2098 | From: Midlands | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Evangeline & Boogie. There's not a wisp of ablated cornea between you that I can see.
Your story, Evangeline, is very real, razor edged; "Curse God and die" vs. "blessed be the name of the Lord". Thank you for sharing here, where it is Purgatorially challenged. In my recent dreads the only way to hang on has been to say the latter. Eventually. When the ice in my free falling gut allows.
Boogie: "Do I need to rail against Jesus too?", aye you do! Well, tell Him that's what you feel like, because the promises He gave as a man beyond those He delivered as a man were fulfilled within His generation. Not in any literal, testifiable way since. Ever.
For the rest of us He said "blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed". And no, He wasn't actually talking of us thousands of years of unimaginable enculturation down the line. I told Him in the shower just now, it's as if He isn't there. But I must carry on as if He were. Take Pascal's Wager. As I reiterated in a recent walk. Take it up every day ...
I reckon ... thank God.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
She has had a day to reflect now and is still saying the same. A few minutes ago -
"The Consultant Neurologist came and chatted at some length. He clearly does not believe in miracles. For me, regardless of scientific explanation or none, I KNOW this was the work of our Lord. This is because I feel so different – not just the physical change in my vision, but spiritually too. I guess that only those that know Him will know what I mean!
I am still blown away by the colours around me! Not just by the range of colours, but by how vivid they all are.
Thank you all for all your wonderful messages, comments, encouragements and advice, and above all, your prayers. They have clearly been answered! Hallelujah!"
Ho hum and hallelujah. Now, everyone - go away and pray and get to know Him. It clearly makes all the difference, doesn't it?
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
A physician is not angry at the intemperance of a mad patient, nor does he take it ill to be railed at by a man in fever. Just so should a wise man treat all mankind, as a physician does his patient, and look upon them only as sick and extravagant. Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Including in the mirror! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Ho hum and hallelujah. Now, everyone - go away and pray and get to know Him. It clearly makes all the difference, doesn't it?
But that's not what she said. You're reading your opinions of what people like her say into her words, and coming out with what you expect to find. Which is far worse than a happy person gushing about God.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
What a thorny thicket this all is.
When Ah wor a lad of six, a friend's father became a Christian as the result of not being injured (or killed) in the Lewisham train crash of 4th December 1957. Even at that early age, I dared to wonder why God had not spared the 90 killed and 109 injured...
IJ
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
SusanDoris, a question. Do you feel thankful to anything beyond the individual doctor and medical science advances?
What I mean is that presumably it is possible to feel thankful without it needing to be directed at a deity at all. I can be thankful for being alive, I can be thankful for living here rather than somewhere else, I can be thankful for family. I'm not sure that necessarily needs to be directed at someone/something.
Maybe this is a bit about semantics and language, but the notion of "being grateful" and/or "being thankful" seems to be a healthy thing. What do you think?
Even when I believed in a God/force/powere, I never thought or said, Thank god' for something, although I suppose, if I remember correctly, there were parts of CofE services and of course hymns that included a thank-you to god somewhere. So it was not necessary when finally erasing God from the small space it occupied in my mind, to consciously change. It is, however, something I have pondered on - is there anything to thankkkkkkkkkk when things go well? Medical expertise enables my body to be cured and live, but I am grateful to, or acknowledge clearly the debt we all owe to evolution, to humanity and more specifically to the evolutionary drive to find the answer to questions which has resulted in the medical knowledge and treatments available today. The feeling of gratitude stays in my mind though, as there is no object to which to aim it. The training of children to say, thank you' to and for so many things is deeply ingrained I think.
There is, I do concede, a vacancy here! Since reading the Jasper Fforde bookworld series, I think the GSD, General Standard Deity, is a very good solution. Everyone, bar none, knows that there is no such thing as an actual deity, but it works for those who are indifferent, for those who have no interest in religious services, and for those who like to have a church structure, with Vicars, services, baby namings, marriages and funerals.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
I therefore offer up my prayers in triplicate to the General Standard Deity, and hope that his/her Generalissimo is not upset if I blame him/her for an aching tooth. But oh, but ah, GSD, why did you make teeth? Yes, I know, in order to lead me to repentance, I again bow my head in chagrin at my pride and incomprehension.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
[skeptic alert]It struck me some time ago that God appears to provide divine intervention with a frequency precisely matching that of coincidence.
In real life terms, I don't go pissing on people's parades about that. I do try to not be a prick. I don't always succeed.
Personal reflection - related to the observation here.
I am reminded of the last time I attended church. Pretty much the day that put the nail in the coffin of my belief. Please note, these stories are the end of a much bigger journey and not the be-all and end-all, or proof positive or anything like that. Just the confirmation that I had nothing in common with these people.
Firstly, a guy makes his way to the front to share how God has helped him. He had had some pain in his wrist for about a week, and got people to pray for him. The next morning the pain had gone and he wanted to share this and testify to the healing power of God for us all to believe in.
He then took his crutches and made his way back to his seat. Back still broken and legs at about 15% capacity. But he didn't have a sore wrist. I'm in awe of how this guy has learned to live and carry on with his broken back. Don't get me wrong. But it felt to me that a god who healed a sore wrist and overlooked the broken back has a screw loose.
Then someone else shared how one of the members had recently had a chronic drug resistant infection of a wound, but God had cleared that. Putting aside the immediate thought of false negative results on wound swabs (which it turned out to be), I couldn't help but wonder that if that was the case, wouldn't it have been better for God to sort that shit out before she had her lower leg amputated, rather than 6 weeks post op?
These are different stories from Boogies. But what we have in common is the sense that sometime people rush to credit God.
I guess for those who believe in God, that raises the question of when to ascribe thankfulness to God, and how to express that.
[/skeptic alert]
Those who don't get miracles of course are not part of God's chosen people, have insufficient faith, are being punished for some unknown sins they or ancestors committed, ad nauseum (pun intended). It is the kind of faith I once found great joy, expectancy and hope from. But because we must always have freedom to believe what we will without confirmation, a miracle of healing must necessarily be akin to God in the flesh with a gun to my head asking if I believe. There's no freewill in that. There's only compulsion. Which isn't on.
But there's too much emphasis on belief anyway. Better is comfort through a sense of the eternal and unchanged. Better is understanding that it is necessary for humans to take it all into their hands and do things rightly, pinning their purpose on the eternal instead of self. Which is what I've come to.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Very neat, Goldfish Stew: 'God seems to provide divine intervention with a frequency precisely matching that of coincidence'.
That reminds me of those theists who argue that God guides evolution, so that he creates a universe that looks uncreated. Genius.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
She has had a day to reflect now and is still saying the same. A few minutes ago -
"The Consultant Neurologist came and chatted at some length. He clearly does not believe in miracles. For me, regardless of scientific explanation or none, I KNOW this was the work of our Lord. This is because I feel so different – not just the physical change in my vision, but spiritually too. I guess that only those that know Him will know what I mean!
I am still blown away by the colours around me! Not just by the range of colours, but by how vivid they all are.
Thank you all for all your wonderful messages, comments, encouragements and advice, and above all, your prayers. They have clearly been answered! Hallelujah!"
Ho hum and hallelujah. Now, everyone - go away and pray and get to know Him. It clearly makes all the difference, doesn't it?
Obviously context is everything here, but my guess is that your joyful friends public sharing on the VI group is helpful to some and hurtful to others, and perhaps both at once or in turn for some.
Again. relating it to our experience with the recent HLHS diagnosis. As we've shared about this publicly, several people-- mostly friends of friends (it is rather rare) have come forward to share their experiences with HLHS. Some have shared of babies who survived the surgeries and thrived into adulthood, others have shared stories of babies who died in infancy-- because that is pretty much indicative of the range of experience with this diagnosis.
But are helpful/not helpful in turn. There are times when hearing the news of babies who survived & thrived brings hope in a hopeless situation. And times when the horrible stories of death resonate with our anguish at the diagnosis. Both are true. And sharing both can be helpful or not helpful depending on where we happen to be at that particular moment.
People grieve losses in many different ways and in many different seasons. I certainly hope, along with everyone else, that your friend is sharing her joy in appropriate ways that don't imply God favored her over someone else or that there is any "trick" to praying/acting/doing that will force God's hand. I pray that for those where hope is needed, that is what it will bring. And I pray for those who are struggling with the very real theodicy issues raised by intermittent healing will find a place to ask those very real questions, as you have done here. Each in their time.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Ho hum and hallelujah. Now, everyone - go away and pray and get to know Him. It clearly makes all the difference, doesn't it?
But that's not what she said. You're reading your opinions of what people like her say into her words, and coming out with what you expect to find. Which is far worse than a happy person gushing about God.
No, that's not what she said. They are my words and in them I'm being sarcastic cynical about it all.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
She has had a day to reflect now and is still saying the same. A few minutes ago -
"The Consultant Neurologist came and chatted at some length. He clearly does not believe in miracles. For me, regardless of scientific explanation or none, I KNOW this was the work of our Lord. This is because I feel so different – not just the physical change in my vision, but spiritually too. I guess that only those that know Him will know what I mean!
I am still blown away by the colours around me! Not just by the range of colours, but by how vivid they all are.
Thank you all for all your wonderful messages, comments, encouragements and advice, and above all, your prayers. They have clearly been answered! Hallelujah!"
Ho hum and hallelujah. Now, everyone - go away and pray and get to know Him. It clearly makes all the difference, doesn't it?
So basically this person's experience in having sight restored was so profound and moving too her that she remains incredibly thankful a full day later? And in her belief system this gratitude goes back to God ("praise god from whom all blessings flow" is not a particularly unusual statement in christendom)?
Sorry Boogie, but although I don't share her belief system, I can't help but feel that getting upset about her crediting god in this rather than being happy for her good fortune might be missing the point.
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Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Hm.
On the one hand, an attitude of gratitude is important for mental health, as those of us who suck at gratitute and excel at catastophizing know. So, in a way it is good to hear about someone grooving on new colors, because a lot of times even the healthiest of us forget to do that. Gratitute itself is not about comparison, it is about enjoying your own life as best you can. In that sense I can totally understand busted up back guy being thankful that at least his wrist works enough so that he can go back to charcoal sketching while he is waiting for the rest of him to heal, or whatever.
On the other hand, there is a way to be grateful graciously, humbly, in recognition of the fact that things could have easily gone another way, and you would have had to assimilate that event into whatever perception of God you have.
From your friend's quotes, Boogie, she seems to be making a direct connection between the amount of people praying for her and the results which, theologically, is weird. Human - nature- ly, if you honk that horn long enough, it starts to come across as a Christianized version of a celebrities address to their fan base, or a charity fund raiser donation scoreboard.
So, hypothetical unhealed one not only is sitting at home wondering if her life remains miserable because God doesn't like her as much as other people, but now she has to wonder if more people liked her enough to pray for her, it'd be different.
Again, as Martin said, your friend is drunk on joy, so all this would not occur to her. But maybe it is not the gratitute itself that is irking you, but other more persistent personality traits surrounding it.
(And for the record, the "those who know him will understand what I mean" would irk me, too. Like I said, gratitude shouldn't be about comparison.)
[ 24. November 2016, 17:09: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Goldfish Stew
Shipmate
# 5512
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
In that sense I can totally understand busted up back guy being thankful that at least his wrist works enough so that he can go back to charcoal sketching while he is waiting for the rest of him to heal, or whatever.
Actually more pertinently (and I recognised this at the time) for someone who used crutches to get around and was determined to do as much for himself as possible, getting an aching wrist sorted is going to be significantly more life improving than it will for most.
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Posts: 2405 | From: Aotearoa/New Zealand | Registered: Feb 2004
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bishops Finger:
What a thorny thicket this all is.
When Ah wor a lad of six, a friend's father became a Christian as the result of not being injured (or killed) in the Lewisham train crash of 4th December 1957. Even at that early age, I dared to wonder why God had not spared the 90 killed and 109 injured...
Which is probably why Christianity went into gradual, but steady decline since the Great War.
A storm of lead and metal shards whizzing in every direction, takes out some and not others was more a promotion of the theory of randomness as opposed to divine intervention.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I beginning to wonder if this thread is about the rights and wrongs of giving thanks to God or shouting shit on FB.
The two are, in every conceivable way, quite different.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Good point.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I think they are related. At least in the way people think about miracles.
OK, from the outside, old timey Jesus-type miracles make sense from a recruitment standpoint. A solid demonstration of the divine.
But the modern miracles, assisted by or done through, medicines do not resonate as rational.
If they are true miracles, God has a preference for rich, white people.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Goldfish Stew:
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
In that sense I can totally understand busted up back guy being thankful that at least his wrist works enough so that he can go back to charcoal sketching while he is waiting for the rest of him to heal, or whatever.
Actually more pertinently (and I recognised this at the time) for someone who used crutches to get around and was determined to do as much for himself as possible, getting an aching wrist sorted is going to be significantly more life improving than it will for most.
I have a friend with a false leg, who I have known since we were around fourteen years old.
During one Bible study, the Pastor asked us to go around the circle and say which two items we'd take on a desert island. We all went around saying, "Oooh, my Bible! My confirmation cross! My copy of "Mere Christianiy" ( that was me.)
Dave said, "My leg and my contact lenses,"which kind of toned us all down.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Which is probably why Christianity went into gradual, but steady decline since the Great War.
A storm of lead and metal shards whizzing in every direction, takes out some and not others was more a promotion of the theory of randomness as opposed to divine intervention.
But strangely not after the Crimean war. Or the Napoleonic wars. Or the English or American civil wars. This seems almost as selective an attempt at correlation as the prayer and healing gig.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Which is probably why Christianity went into gradual, but steady decline since the Great War.
A storm of lead and metal shards whizzing in every direction, takes out some and not others was more a promotion of the theory of randomness as opposed to divine intervention.
But strangely not after the Crimean war. Or the Napoleonic wars. Or the English or American civil wars. This seems almost as selective an attempt at correlation as the prayer and healing gig.
The working class were growing up fast by WWI, which was the end of their infantilization. An unintended consequence of capitalism. The decline was well under way by the time of the Chartists at least, in the Napoleonic era in fact. Deference took a long time dying, WWI killed it off, although they went off to war on a tide of patriotic fervour, unquestioning infantilism, that had gone by the time of 'victory', which wasn't even fully characterized as such being an armistice. The German army withdrew in good order and Germany wasn't occupied. Another example of how not to win a war. Sorry, thought this was the Pacifism thread!
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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simontoad
Ship's Amphibian
# 18096
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Posted
This is a great thread. I liked skimming through it and focus reading different debates and new approaches. I read and read and read and read and now at the end I feel a need to post.
I'm looking at you all with brimming eyes. ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif)
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Human
Posts: 1571 | From: Romsey, Vic, AU | Registered: May 2014
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Which is probably why Christianity went into gradual, but steady decline since the Great War.
A storm of lead and metal shards whizzing in every direction, takes out some and not others was more a promotion of the theory of randomness as opposed to divine intervention.
But strangely not after the Crimean war. Or the Napoleonic wars. Or the English or American civil wars. This seems almost as selective an attempt at correlation as the prayer and healing gig.
Very good point. I think that the working class mainly stopped going to church about 1800, didn't they? The middle classes carried on, no doubt buoyed up by a tidal wave of respectability.
I remember my grandad, who had been in WWI, and when he got going about padres and clerics, he would go dangerously red in the face, and the language became fruity. But I don't think that the war was the lever. It was a culmination of different stuff.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Very good point. I think that the working class mainly stopped going to church about 1800, didn't they? The middle classes carried on, no doubt buoyed up by a tidal wave of respectability.
Erm, no not quite. In South Wales there was intense chapel-building in the mid 19 century in the coal-mining areas and there was much religiosity upto the early 20th century "Welsh revival".
I believe similar things happened in other parts, primarily focussed on the religiosity of the working classes and including workers from factories, mines and other workplaces. I don't think there is any evidence at all that working class Christianity died in 1800 in the UK.
quote:
I remember my grandad, who had been in WWI, and when he got going about padres and clerics, he would go dangerously red in the face, and the language became fruity. But I don't think that the war was the lever. It was a culmination of different stuff.
I believe there were several important cultural differences between WW1 and the Boer wars (1890s) and other conflicts in the 19 century.
For one thing, the number of casualties and the length of time the conflict went on. In contrast to WW1, The Battle of Waterloo of 1815 went on for a single day and the casualties of the other skirmishes in that period were nothing like those lost in WW1.
Second, the nineteeth century conflicts were primarily some distance from Blighty (particularly the Boer war) and was fought by professional soldiers. So there was limited personal impact on the "man in the pew".
Third I think WW1 came at a particular turning point for religion in the UK, a generation after the great Welsh revivals and decades after the peaks of church and chapel attendance.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Hang on, who said that working class church attendance 'died'? Not me. Straw man.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Hang on, who said that working class church attendance 'died'? Not me. Straw man.
So what did you mean by "I think that the working class mainly stopped going to church about 1800, didn't they?"
Answer - no.
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arse
Posts: 10697 | Registered: Sep 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It means that church attendance was low among working class people. That doesn't mean 'died'.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
It's rubbish. The majority of the expansion in Methodism throughout the 19 century was in the working classes.
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arse
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mr cheesy:
It's rubbish. The majority of the expansion in Methodism throughout the 19 century was in the working classes.
Yeah, I'm just making the point that you misrepresented me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mr cheesy
Shipmate
# 3330
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Posted
I don't understand the difference, but OK, I didn't quote you directly.
But the point you appear to be making - a reduction in working-class attendance at church from 1800 due to the increasing middle-class make-up of the congregation which had some (mysterious to me) impact on the way that WW1 was understood in contrast to the Boer War - appears to be little more than a point of rhetoric.
It's wrong - there were mass movements of Christianity amongst the working classes in the 19 century. What's that got to do with the religiosity in WW1 anyway?
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arse
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