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Source: (consider it) Thread: Castro's legacy
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Great Britain has been more or less extant since the Act of Union in 1707. Can we hold it responsible for its actions yet?

Twist and turn some more, why don't you?

Angola gained independence from Portugal in 1975, and only then did the civil war start between the various factions that wanted to be in charge of the newly independent country. It was to this conflict that Castro sent troops, and those troops also participated in the killing of political dissidents.

Portugal (much less "The West") is not responsible for the actions of the various factions that started the Angolan civil war, and it is definitely not responsible for Castro's decision to send troops to intervene in that war. Those people bear responsibility for their own atrocities.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

Portugal (much less "The West") is not responsible for the actions of the various factions that started the Angolan civil war, and it is definitely not responsible for Castro's decision to send troops to intervene in that war. Those people bear responsibility for their own atrocities.

They bear the responsibility for their own atrocities and Portugal bears responsibility for setting the circumstances. Portugal created a country and then left it to people who had no reason to consider themselves homogeneous.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Great Britain has been more or less extant since the Act of Union in 1707. Can we hold it responsible for its actions yet?

Twist and turn some more, why don't you?

Angola gained independence from Portugal in 1975, and only then did the civil war start between the various factions that wanted to be in charge of the newly independent country. It was to this conflict that Castro sent troops, and those troops also participated in the killing of political dissidents.

Portugal (much less "The West") is not responsible for the actions of the various factions that started the Angolan civil war, and it is definitely not responsible for Castro's decision to send troops to intervene in that war. Those people bear responsibility for their own atrocities.

It's as if 500 years of rape didn't happen.

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Love wins

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Angola gained independence from Portugal in 1975, and only then did the civil war start between the various factions that wanted to be in charge of the newly independent country. It was to this conflict that Castro sent troops, and those troops also participated in the killing of political dissidents.

Bzzt. Cuban troops took part in the war of independence that preceded the civil war.

quote:
Portugal (much less "The West") is not responsible for the actions of the various factions that started the Angolan civil war
Bzzt. Portugal had a choice. An orderly handover of power to indigenous African politicians, or drag it out over 13 years. Portugal (part of "The West" the last time I looked) is totally and utterly responsible for those 13 years, and more or less totally and utterly responsible for the chaos that followed.
quote:
and it is definitely not responsible for Castro's decision to send troops to intervene in that war. Those people bear responsibility for their own atrocities.
Castro's decision was Castro's decision. That's pretty much the only factual comment in your entire post. It was equally the USA's decision to fund one half of the civil war and use South Africa and Israel to expedite arms shipments and training without telling its own citizens that's what it was doing. That civil war went on for a further 26 years. Thanks, USA.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Gee D
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Ethiopia: It's near impossible to talk of this as colonisation. The Italian conquest was not complete until mid-1936 and the Allies had defeated the Italians by the end of 1941. Not really long enough to colonise the country.

Angola: It's interesting that the Portuguese home revolution was carried far to the left by troops returning from Portugal's African colonies. The Angolan civil wars after the Portuguese quit were predominantly proxy wars between the Russians and the Chinese, each supporting a major combatant (and a few minor ones, used to keep the major ones on their toes). South Africa would throw a bit of money and a few arms in from time to time to stir things up.

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
Western imperialism forced Castro to support atrocities in Angola and Ethiopia? How exactly did that work?

Supporting atrocities in foreign countries puts Castro on the same moral level as most of his contemporary Presidents of the US (with the possible exception of Carter), and most of the Prime Ministers of the UK.
It's arguable that the option of running a left-wing democratic government simply wasn't open to Castro, given what the US did to left-wing democratic governments in south and central America throughout the Cold War. Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they're not out to get you.

Not to say Castro was a hero. Just that the whole thing is a murky shade of grey. And that in the context of US foreign policy a sane moral person could think Castro looked the least-worst option.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Martin60
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I recommend Ryszard Kapuściński's works on both. And The Shadow of the Sun, which contains the most beautifully ghastly account - from Ethiopia - I have ever read.

The West took Selassie's money for champagne, caviar while the people he took it from starved to death. Admittedly comparing him with Mengistu is like comparing Mussolini with Hitler.

Western, i.e. European, Christian imperialism (which is SO much more than colonialism and I take the view that the West starts shallowly at the Urals), funnily enough began in Ethiopia 500 years ago with Portugal opposing Turkey there. Britain - and even America and France and Russia - wouldn't begin sticking their snouts in for over 300 years, with her Egyptian proxy and Turkish ally, followed by Italy of course. Twice. And dear old Blighty. Again. Twice. And the Russians again! Bless.

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Love wins

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Alt Wally

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Pure productivity is not the motive of any revolution. Punishing and controlling those who are deemed part of the previous structure is part of it.
But anyway my point was property, whatever the reason it was taken, cannot be counted as wealth for Castro as it was never potentially for sale.

Then it was an inevitability that the Revolution would end in poverty for its people. Just as the embargo was an unavoidable response to the assets being seized in the first place.

[ 02. December 2016, 02:40: Message edited by: Alt Wally ]

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Pure productivity is not the motive of any revolution. Punishing and controlling those who are deemed part of the previous structure is part of it.
But anyway my point was property, whatever the reason it was taken, cannot be counted as wealth for Castro as it was never potentially for sale.

Then it was an inevitability that the Revolution would end in poverty for its people. Just as the embargo was an unavoidable response to the assets being seized in the first place.
A communist revolution could, in theory, end with everyone provided for adequately if the resultant country had adequate resources. I do not think this a likely outcome regardless, but it would be possible It would still end up repressive, but that is a separate issue.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:

It's arguable that the option of running a left-wing democratic government simply wasn't open to Castro, given what the US did to left-wing democratic governments in south and central America throughout the Cold War.

But from everything I've read, Castro was set on Communism from the get go. So even if the argument you place is valid, it was never going to happen.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Golden Key
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Re Castro and Africa:

"Why Nelson Mandela Loved Fidel Castro." (HuffPost)

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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Re Castro and Africa:

"Why Nelson Mandela Loved Fidel Castro." (HuffPost)

quote:
“We admire the sacrifices of the Cuban people in maintaining their independence and sovereignty in the face of a vicious, imperialist-orchestrated campaign,” Mandela said during the visit, according to the Los Angeles Times. “We, too, want to control our own destiny.”
The Cuban people have no independence and no choice in the matter of what they would sacrifice. Mandela was wrong to unreservedly praise Castro, The freedom he worked for was denied the people of Cuba.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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Became distraced and missed the edit window.

Mandela, when he gained his freedom and came into power, sought reconciliation with those who had imprisoned him and repressed black people.
Castro killed opponents and jailed anyone who even spoke against him and even jailed people who had supported him but simply wanted out.
I understand his wish to support those who supported him, but he was wrong to praise Castro.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Angola gained independence from Portugal in 1975, and only then did the civil war start between the various factions that wanted to be in charge of the newly independent country. It was to this conflict that Castro sent troops, and those troops also participated in the killing of political dissidents.

Bzzt. Cuban troops took part in the war of independence that preceded the civil war.
Wikipedia disagrees with you.

quote:
quote:
Portugal (much less "The West") is not responsible for the actions of the various factions that started the Angolan civil war
Bzzt. Portugal had a choice. An orderly handover of power to indigenous African politicians, or drag it out over 13 years. Portugal (part of "The West" the last time I looked) is totally and utterly responsible for those 13 years,
Agreed, but the atrocities we are discussing did not happen during those 13 years. They came later.

quote:
and more or less totally and utterly responsible for the chaos that followed.
How so? In what way is Portugal responsible for the fact that the Angolan independence movement fractured into disparate and antagonistic factions once independence had been won?

quote:
Castro's decision was Castro's decision. That's pretty much the only factual comment in your entire post. It was equally the USA's decision to fund one half of the civil war and use South Africa and Israel to expedite arms shipments and training without telling its own citizens that's what it was doing. That civil war went on for a further 26 years. Thanks, USA.
If the USA was wrong to intervene then so was Castro. If Castro was right to intervene then so was the USA. Choose.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A communist revolution could, in theory, end with everyone provided for adequately if the resultant country had adequate resources.

The biggest problem with that is the question of who gets to define what "provided for adequately" means.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Wikipedia disagrees with you.

Wikipedia also agrees with me. Such is the way of these things.

quote:
Agreed, but the atrocities we are discussing did not happen during those 13 years. They came later.
You can't draw a line under 13 years of conflict so neatly. Your bizarrely binary thinking manifests itself here, too:

quote:
In what way is Portugal responsible for the fact that the Angolan independence movement fractured into disparate and antagonistic factions once independence had been won?
Because it was already deliberately fractured by various global powers supporting different factions during the 13 years of fighting.

And again, here:

quote:
If the USA was wrong to intervene then so was Castro. If Castro was right to intervene then so was the USA. Choose.
So, on one hand, you have a country sending arms, training and soldiers to aid an indigenous independence movement trying to overthrow their colonial masters. On the other, you have a country doing the same thing trying to make sure the status quo was maintained.

And yet you can't make a moral judgement as to which side of history was the right one? That's interesting.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Wikipedia disagrees with you.

Wikipedia also agrees with me. Such is the way of these things.
Where in that article are Cuban troops mentioned prior to 1975?

quote:
quote:
Agreed, but the atrocities we are discussing did not happen during those 13 years. They came later.
You can't draw a line under 13 years of conflict so neatly.
13 years of conflict which Portugal lost. To blame Portugal for the subsequent actions of the winners is a bit like blaming Nazi Germany for the Berlin Wall.

quote:
quote:
In what way is Portugal responsible for the fact that the Angolan independence movement fractured into disparate and antagonistic factions once independence had been won?
Because it was already deliberately fractured by various global powers supporting different factions during the 13 years of fighting.
All of the factions were fighting against Portugal, and yet you blame Portugal for the fact that those factions were backed by other global powers?

quote:
quote:
If the USA was wrong to intervene then so was Castro. If Castro was right to intervene then so was the USA. Choose.
So, on one hand, you have a country sending arms, training and soldiers to aid an indigenous independence movement trying to overthrow their colonial masters. On the other, you have a country doing the same thing trying to make sure the status quo was maintained.
The FNLA and UNITA were many things during that period, but "trying to maintain the status quo" wasn't one of them.

And you're still ignoring the fact that by the time period we're talking about, the colonial masters had already been overthrown.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
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So everything is a zero sum game, springs from the forehead of history fully formed with no history. Every day is Another Day of Life with complete amnesia of 500 years of rape.

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Love wins

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
So everything is a zero sum game, springs from the forehead of history fully formed with no history. Every day is Another Day of Life with complete amnesia of 500 years of rape.

What alternative are you proposing? That the formerly colonial countries have no moral agency in their own right, and all their bad decisions are to be laid at the door of their former masters?

Clearly that would mean the USA isn't responsible for any of the things you criticise it for, as it used to be owned by Britain. But then, Britain used to be owned by the Roman Empire, so maybe it isn't responsible for anything it does either.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
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Wow! Is that loj-ick?

How long has the West had Canterbury? Lambeth? Oxbridge? Paris is oldest I realise. Whitehall? The Ivy League? Foggy Bottom?

By what orders of magnitude of knowledge?

The heart of darkness of the sewers of Portugal were emptied on Angola for five hundred years and spread deep in to central Africa paving the way for the monstrous Belgians (who'd have thought it eh?). They go and the society that arises in the vacuum over the toxic shit they left has agency?

Like the street people I'll be working with tonight. I'll tell them that shall I? "No, I was wrong, you DID choose your parents, you only have yourselves to blame.".

The alternative is incarnationality. Don't worry, we'll NEVER try it.

[ 02. December 2016, 11:29: Message edited by: Martin60 ]

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Love wins

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Doc Tor
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
To blame Portugal for the subsequent actions of the winners is a bit like blaming Nazi Germany for the Berlin Wall.

I'm sorry. You've pretty much written yourself out of any credible position on anything that has every happened even one second ago.

Are you even aware of the notion of causality? That one thing happens because of the thing before it?

You can draw a direct line between Nazi Germany deciding to invade Russia in 1941 and the Berlin Wall going up. Literally, a line. X then Y. I cannot believe that you think otherwise.

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Get your arse to Mars

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Martin60
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My exact thoughts.

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Love wins

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Are you even aware of the notion of causality? That one thing happens because of the thing before it?

So if someone has a bad day at work and goes home and hits their wife, it's really work's fault rather than their own? Your approach to causality would suggest it is.

quote:
You can draw a direct line between Nazi Germany deciding to invade Russia in 1941 and the Berlin Wall going up. Literally, a line. X then Y. I cannot believe that you think otherwise.
You can draw similar lines all the way back to the beginning of civilisation. But what would that prove, exactly?

My point is that for each line drawn, someone made a decision to react the way they did. And they alone bear the moral responsibility for that decision.

Or to put it another way, "A then B" does not equate to "A therefore B".

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
They go and the society that arises in the vacuum over the toxic shit they left has agency?

Well if the society they left didn't have agency then maybe they should never have left at all. I mean, I thought all that stuff about self-determination was predicated on the notion that the people concerned were capable of determining their own fate, but you seem to be saying they weren't (aren't?).

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
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Of course they aren't. Who is?

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Love wins

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Of course they aren't. Who is?

Well if nobody is then on what grounds are you criticising the West?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
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Being fecklessly privileged. Which is without excuse. Marmosets know what fair is.

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Love wins

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
Being fecklessly privileged.

How can you blame them for that if they don't have the agency to do anything about it?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
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I blame no one for their blame. We can't help being to blame. Being deluded predators of the poor. How else are we going to keep what we've devoured? And justify it? If only to ourselves.

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Love wins

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

Or to put it another way, "A then B" does not equate to "A therefore B".

To put it properly: A then B doesn't necessarily equate to A therefore B. It requires an evidentiary chain as part of the claim.
You exhibit the logic that makes Tories spontaneously orgasm; the freedom to wreak havoc with no responsibility.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You exhibit the logic that makes Tories spontaneously orgasm; the freedom to wreak havoc with no responsibility.

I'm not the one arguing that the post-colonial leadership of Angola bears no responsibility for its atrocities. I'm the one arguing that everyone bears the responsibility for things they do, but not for things other people do afterwards.

If I rob you, I am guilty of that crime. If you rob someone else to replace what I took, I am not guilty of that crime. Even though it wouldn't have happened had I not committed mine first.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

I'm the one arguing that everyone bears the responsibility for things they do,

What people/nations/etc. do has consequences. How much responsibility goes with that is dependent, but not automatically disconnected.


quote:

If I rob you, I am guilty of that crime. If you rob someone else to replace what I took, I am not guilty of that crime. Even though it wouldn't have happened had I not committed mine first.

Love the simple, but totally inapplicable analogy.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
the freedom to wreak havoc with no responsibility.

Tories?

Maybe.

Sounds exactly like the attitude of countless revolutionaries, communist and otherwise, from the Hebertists and Enrages, to the Red Guards and Khmer Rouge.

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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You exhibit the logic that makes Tories spontaneously orgasm; the freedom to wreak havoc with no responsibility.

I'm not the one arguing that the post-colonial leadership of Angola bears no responsibility for its atrocities. I'm the one arguing that everyone bears the responsibility for things they do, but not for things other people do afterwards.

If I rob you, I am guilty of that crime. If you rob someone else to replace what I took, I am not guilty of that crime. Even though it wouldn't have happened had I not committed mine first.

I'm sympathetic to that. I know it's true ... And false. So do you. Thou doth protest too much, methinks. THAT'S the lesson of history (apart from there not being one) that we can't learn. But the survivor guilt at the top of the mountain of skulls is high isn't it?

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Love wins

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
If I rob you, I am guilty of that crime. If you rob someone else to replace what I took, I am not guilty of that crime. Even though it wouldn't have happened had I not committed mine first.

Love the simple, but totally inapplicable analogy.
Inapplicable For what reason(s)?

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
the freedom to wreak havoc with no responsibility.

Tories?

Maybe.

Sounds exactly like the attitude of countless revolutionaries, communist and otherwise, from the Hebertists and Enrages, to the Red Guards and Khmer Rouge.

It's apparently also applicable to the post-colonial authorities in Angola, who according to this thread were completely free to wreak all the havoc they liked in the knowledge that all the responsibility would be laid at the door of Portugal.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
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Get a room guys.

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Love wins

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Alt Wally

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A communist revolution could, in theory, end with everyone provided for adequately if the resultant country had adequate resources.

In theory true; if everyone worked to contribute to the state and broader society without the normal human inducements of personal material gain and property ownership that could work out. In practice its total nonsense, and what you get is repression and poverty.
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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Alt Wally:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
A communist revolution could, in theory, end with everyone provided for adequately if the resultant country had adequate resources.

In theory true; if everyone worked to contribute to the state and broader society without the normal human inducements of personal material gain and property ownership that could work out. In practice its total nonsense, and what you get is repression and poverty.
There are many factors why communism is nothing more than a delusionary wet dream. But this is about Castro specifically, so I don't wish to go too far down that road.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
If I rob you, I am guilty of that crime. If you rob someone else to replace what I took, I am not guilty of that crime. Even though it wouldn't have happened had I not committed mine first.

Love the simple, but totally inapplicable analogy.
Inapplicable For what reason(s)?
It implies that all issues are direct cause and effect and this is patently ridiculous.
Most analogies fail at some point, but I will try a simple one just for you.

Say I construct a building for you with shoddy materials and workmanship. And earthquake later happens and the building collapses, who/what is responsible?
In your logic, it is purely the earthquake. In the real world, the building triggered the collapse, but I am at fault as well.

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Jolly Jape
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
You exhibit the logic that makes Tories spontaneously orgasm; the freedom to wreak havoc with no responsibility.

I'm not the one arguing that the post-colonial leadership of Angola bears no responsibility for its atrocities. I'm the one arguing that everyone bears the responsibility for things they do, but not for things other people do afterwards.

If I rob you, I am guilty of that crime. If you rob someone else to replace what I took, I am not guilty of that crime. Even though it wouldn't have happened had I not committed mine first.

As a moral argument, you would not be guilty of
that crime, it's true, but you would be guilty of "causing another to stumble", at least according to that guy we are supposed to be following, and he seems to think that a far more serious offence, if all that talk of millstones is true. FWIW, I agree with him, but YMMV.

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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
If I rob you, I am guilty of that crime. If you rob someone else to replace what I took, I am not guilty of that crime. Even though it wouldn't have happened had I not committed mine first.

Love the simple, but totally inapplicable analogy.
Inapplicable For what reason(s)?
It implies that all issues are direct cause and effect and this is patently ridiculous.
Most analogies fail at some point, but I will try a simple one just for you.

Say I construct a building for you with shoddy materials and workmanship. And earthquake later happens and the building collapses, who/what is responsible?
In your logic, it is purely the earthquake. In the real world, the building triggered the collapse, but I am at fault as well.

Neither earthquakes nor building materials have moral agency, so it's still the decision to use shoddy materials that's responsible. We're talking about a situation where people chose to react to a situation (Portugal leaving Angola) in a certain way (by killing each other in a bitter battle for control). And that choice is all on them.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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lilBuddha
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I'm not certain you truly understand what an analogy is or how they function. Nor do your statements demonstrate a knowledge of the concept of cause and effect beyond I let go a rock and it fell.
This is not mean as an insult, but if you are arguing in good faith, it is difficult to find another conclusion.
No one is arguing that those committing atrocities are not responsible for their actions. This does not exclude that those who created the circumstance have responsibility as well.
It is not zero-sum.

[ 04. December 2016, 19:05: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No one is arguing that those committing atrocities are not responsible for their actions.

Could have fooled me.

quote:
This does not exclude that those who created the circumstance have responsibility as well.
It is not zero-sum.

I don't know, it still feels like you're denying the agency of the Angolans. As if there was nothing else they could have done once Portugal left except start murdering each other - as if it was as inevitable as a shoddily-made building falling down in an earthquake. I'm saying that once Portugal had left they had the opportunity to shape the nation however they wanted, and they chose violence. And I don't see how Portugal is responsible for that choice.

[ 04. December 2016, 21:35: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Anglican't
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On the subject of Castro's legacy, I found this Washington Post article, following Justin Trudeau's (in my opinion bizarre) eulogy interesting. I've long had doubts about the actual quality of Cuban public services, given accounts of it by tourists and visitors who saw it first hand. From the article:

quote:
Trudeau appears to accept outdated Cuban government spin as current fact. The reality is that education and health care were already relatively vibrant in Cuba before the revolution, compared with other Latin American countries. While the Castro regime has not let that slip — and given greater access to the poor — it is a stretch to claim Castro was responsible for “significant improvements,” especially more recently.

Many other Latin American countries made far more dramatic strides in the past six decades, without the need for a communist dictatorship; Cuba simply had a head start when Castro seized power.

Moreover, the focus on health care and education should not detract from the fact that overall living standards, as measured by gross domestic product, calorie consumption and other measures, have declined significantly under communist rule. Without big handouts from first the Soviet Union and then Venezuela, the economic picture would be even worse.


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Martin60
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
No one is arguing that those committing atrocities are not responsible for their actions.

Could have fooled me.

quote:
This does not exclude that those who created the circumstance have responsibility as well.
It is not zero-sum.

I don't know, it still feels like you're denying the agency of the Angolans. As if there was nothing else they could have done once Portugal left except start murdering each other - as if it was as inevitable as a shoddily-made building falling down in an earthquake. I'm saying that once Portugal had left they had the opportunity to shape the nation however they wanted, and they chose violence. And I don't see how Portugal is responsible for that choice.

We can, you can't. That's your choice. We can't see it for you.

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Love wins

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Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We can't see it for you.

Apparently you can't even begin to explain it either. Just a whole lot of bluster about cause and effect that ignores (or denies) any ability of human beings to make choices.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Martin60
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It's a meaningless concept. Show me. Show me a meaningful choice. In the context of the thread or ANYWHERE.

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Love wins

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Marvin the Martian

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Ah, you're back to the "nobody bears any responsibility or blame for anything" line of thought. Which would be fine if you were consistent, but when you've spent so much time blaming Western Imperialism for all the ills of the world it falls a little flat.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin60:
We can't see it for you.

Apparently you can't even begin to explain it either.
It has been explained. In a reasonable and rational way.
quote:

Just a whole lot of bluster about cause and effect that ignores (or denies) any ability of human beings to make choices.

Do you actually not understand what non-zero sum means? Or how it works?

--------------------
So goodnight moon, I want the sun
If it's not here soon, I might be done
No it won't be too soon 'til I say goodnight moon

- A. N. Parsley, D. Mcvinni

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